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The Most Complete and Comprehensive Guide to Balanced Hackmons

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by asterat, Aug 31, 2013.

  1. sugarhigh

    sugarhigh

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    Okay I'm going to outright say illusion slaking is a horrible set. This set is completely walled by unaware user of any kind. Most players expect this set also if they see a sheddy, belly drum and will immediately switch to their unaware to wall the living crap out of this poke. Furthermore Slaking has access to soooo many more abilities that help it much better. A few of these abilities are scrappy, mold breaker, poison heal, and contrary. Therefore there's no point of wasting a spot on a team for an inferior ability when you have access to greater abilities.
  2. Eevee General

    Eevee General Prepare your windsocks, it's about to get crazy
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
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    ^It was, at one point, pretty novel. However, it is no longer viable because it's easy to counter. But I remember getting swept by one back in the day!
    >.<
  3. Adrian Marin

    Adrian Marin

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    It was indeed harder to handle in the past! But for some reason, people still use it even though it isn't viable.
  4. Rumors

    Rumors

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    When I heard that this guide was up, I thought I'd check it out. Nicely done. Though as that guy who's always off doing his own thing and trying out stuff most people won't touch (like Drizzle Genesect... although that one is proving to be quite underwhelming), I've found some nifty stuff that could be worth looking into.

    Firstly, Entei and Aerodactyl. They're essentially Darm and Archeops, respectively, but trade some power for speed and bulk (although not much bulk in Aero's case). They can run a lot of the same sets, except faster, but speed gives them other advantages.

    Entei's base 100 speed let's it do things like run Adaptability, Choice Band V-Create which can seriously maim, or outright OHKO, anything not 4x resistant while also outspeeding many unboosted threats. Being able to outspeed and OHKO a Tail Glow boosted Kyurem-W can be extremely useful, as one example. Darm would have much more trouble in those types of situations.

    Aerodactyl has base speed 130, which lets it outspeed pretty much everything not named Deoxys without boosts. This can be handy sometimes as, for example, Meloetta-P can take out a slightly injured Archeops (or uninjured one if it's using a Choice Band) with Close Combat, but Aerodactyl will seriously maim or KO Meloetta depending on the set and move used (50% for OHKO with Brave Bird + Life Orb and no source of residual damage in play). It also counters unboosted Archeops since it cannot take a Head Smash from Aero.

    Now onto some that are something other than speed vs power arguments...


    Weaville. It's fast, it's hard, and, while it's so frail that it can't even take Weedle's Poison Sting, it has excellent coverage in Dark/Ice that can scare the hell out of many defensive Pokemon. Especially the likes of Giratina and Lugia. Oh, and, unlike normally, it's movepool isn't so limited. Psychic immunity, while situational, can be handy at times, such as scaring out mono-Stored Power sweepers.

    An example set...

    Show Hide
    Weaville @ Life Orb/Choice Band/Choice Scarf/Expert Belt
    Adaptability
    -Icicle Crash
    -Crunch
    -Close Combat
    -Filler (U-Turn, Ice Shard, Spore, Magic Coat, Shedinja-killing move, or whatever you want or need).

    Item choice depends on preference and team needs, though I personally have a strong recommendation for U-Turn if you run a Choice item. The three moves gives it perfect neutral on everything except Honedge, who doesn't exist yet. With a Choice Band or Expert Belt, hitting a SE move after some hazard support can OHKO a huge chunk of the tier or, if not, bring their HP down to debilitatingly low amounts. This is important because Weaville can't take hits, so it'll likely have to run quite often. However, the Scarf is notable in that it boosts Weaville's high speed even higher, letting it KO or revenge kill the entire unboosted meta and a good chunk of the boosted meta, though the drop in power is very noticeable. It also lets it KO Imposters who lack a Scarf Life Orb offers a good trade-off between the Band and Belt since Weaville's lack of bulk means its HP really only has two states: empty or not empty.



    Umbreon. Wait, why? Umbreon has pretty darn good bulk. Not the highest, but it's certainly enough to get the job done. It also has the Dark-typing, which is quite handy and let's it take on some threats other Unawares might struggle with, such as Judgement-sweeping Giratinas, while lacking the weaknesses they have, such as Registeel's vulnerability to V-Create. It helps that Fighting-types are relatively uncommon and Bug-type moves are nearly non-existent outside of U-Turn. With Unaware, Umbreon can easily stomach most non-STAB fighting attacks (though there are exceptions, but that's true for any Unaware wall). However, the main reason to use Umbreon is Stored Power immunity (though being immune to Psychic attacks in general is nice) and STAB Foul Play. A boosting, physical sweeper will not appreciate the extra 50% boost to Foul Play on top of the high damage it's do already.

    No sets here because pretty much any standard Unaware set will do the trick.


    And next, Jolteon. The only reason I have a rain team was just to see if Jolteon would work. Anyway, one thing the Eeveelutions tend to have in common are great stats but horrible movepools in standard play. Jolteon wishes it could do better than Signal Beam, Shadow Ball, and Hidden Power. And in BH, it can. 130 base Speed backed with 110 Special Attack means not only can Jolteon hit fast and hard, but, like Aerodactyl above, it outspeeds pretty much everything not named Deoxys-S or A before boosts come into play. Boltbeam coverage is still just as useful as ever. Perhaps more so now because nobody runs stuff like Volt Absorb or Motor Drive. Jolteon also has the special bulk to take an unboosted hit or two from a number of things, but it's very vulnerable physically, so you have to be careful with it.

    An example of a set would be...

    Show Hide


    Jolteon @ Life Orb
    Dry Skin
    Thunder
    Ice Beam/Blizzard
    Tail Glow/Quiver Dance
    Substitute

    Of course, this is mainly meant to be ran in the rain. A few changes to this set could be made to adapt it to non-rain conditions, however. Or you could change the item and use Swift Swim and just laugh as everything lacking priority fails to keep up with it.

    Jolteon is a bit frail, but it's speed and power are going to force some switches, which gives time to set-up Substitutes. Once behind a Substitute, it can safely set up Tail Glow which, when combined with Life Orb, will allow it to OHKO or 2HKO everything while outspeeding them all. Giratina, Lugia, Groudon, and Palkia are few things OHKOed off the top of my head. Throw in some hazards and you start to add victims such as Cressellia, Regice, and Registeel to that list. If your opponent let's you boost to +6... well, they better have Unaware.

    Sub is really what makes this set though, in my opinion. Jolteon is extremely vulnerable without it, but becomes extremely difficult to handle if it can get one set-up since it's so fast and hits so hard once it has a boost. Even if Chansey swaps in on the turn it uses Sub, Jolteon's attacks are too weak to break it's own sub without a boost, letting you use Tail Glow freely to overcome the Imposter's bulk. It also let's it PP stall Sheddy's Endeavor as it can repeatedly use Sub to block it and, once it drops to about 25%, Sheddy can no longer break the sub with Endeavor (not the ideal way to handle Sheddy, sure, but it's better than not having the option). If it stays in but does something else, Jolteon can hang around and spam Tail Glow to PP stall while recovering any lost HP or fire off some Thunder's to eat Sheddy's Lum Berry to later let someone else's status incapacitate it (or just to try again to paralyze it if you don't have any other source of statuses). Sub also protects Jolteon from Perish Trapping short of Prankster Mean Look (but a boosted Thunder will free you from one of those quickly enough), which is nice since Jolteon tends to attract Perish Singers.

    Quiver Dance is an option since it lets Jolteon outspeed everything not using priority after a boost or two while also letting it take special hits fairly well. However, this takes longer to set up so you'll need to ensure physical threats are accounted for first.

    Also worth noting is Raikou, who's essentially a slightly bulkier and slightly harder hitting Jolteon, albeit at the cost of speed. The two are pretty much interchangeable.



    I have a few others that show promise, but I'm not sure if it's that just they work well with the teams they're on or they're actually handy in general. Frosslass, Darm-Z, and Keldeo are a few examples. But I've typed enough, so I'm not getting into detail on those.

    And also I feel I might start losing some of the surprise factor I tend to have. Oh well, it'd be worth it to see some stuff I throw out here to start popping up.




    Oh, and another Deoxys-S set...

    Show Hide


    Deoxys-S at Choice Scarf
    Prankster
    -Trick
    -Spore
    -Filler
    -Filler

    This is really just an anti-lead set. Prankster + Choice Scarf means you outspeed and cripple even other Prankster Deoxys-S leads. Many leads tend to carry Lum Berries, so you'll more often then not be able to shrug off their Spore and then later steal another item without giving one in return. If it's a Mold Breaker or weather user, you can then just Spore them unless they used Magic Coat (though beware of Magic Bounce switch-ins). Naturally, this loses to certain leads holding certain items, like Mail, but that's just how it goes. The other two moves and, in in all honesty, Spore too just depends on what you want or need Deoxys to do.
  5. Filia

    Filia

    Joined:
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    15
    Hi guys,
    Sorry for no helping at this guide, my english level wasnt good enough haha

    Anyway, here are some of the sets I use (not sure if I really invented them, because lot of people could have used it way before I joined this tier)

    1./
    Terrakion
    I used to have 2 or 3 terra's sets, just in case I play very often the same day (mostly to prevent counters because of dejavu)
    • Set 1
      Terrakion @ Life Orb
      Trait: Scrappy
      EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
      Adamant Nature
      - Shell Smash
      - Close Combat
      - Megahorn
      - Stone Edge
      The goal is to deal maximum damage in a short time (because of life orb's recoil). The scrappy trait is there so I can pass through giratina (his usual counter) because of 2HKO. With the following nature and moves, he can hit almost every unaware in the game with a OHKO or 2HKO. Honorable mention to Cresselia Unaware, the one he'll get problems with, because of 4HKO and Megahorn's accuracy. Anyway, it's still kinda strong on anyone. Weak to prankster spore tho, so take care.
    • Set 2

      already in the guide I guess, it's the usual Toxic/Life orb Guarder Terra
    • Set 3

      Soon...

    2./
    Shuckle
    As you may have seen, I'm a huge fan of sand, and because I kinda disagree with the set already given, here's mine :)

    Shuckle @ Leftovers
    Trait: Unaware
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Foul Play
    - U-turn
    - Perish Song
    - Milk Drink

    Alright, so, some explanations, Foul Play to OHKO most of belly drumer and so on, at least it deals pretty much of dmg (~20% on dialga for e.g)
    Perish song if you just can't kill them with foul play (a V-create spammer for e.g, or a quiver dance user) then u-turn on Turn 3 so you can place the best Pokemon according to the situation (You're the slower pokemon in the entire game, take advantage of it)
    Milk Drink obviously for heal.
    ALWAYS use shuckle in sand, there's no point else.

    3./
    Golurk
    Sometimes I just HATE shedinja. So I run this set with Golurk, the perfect anti-shed ever made.

    Golurk @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Turboblaze
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Pursuit
    - Spore
    - Stealth Rock
    - Whirlwind

    Alright, so : Why Golurk ? Some would say Giratina is better. Well, Golurk is better in one way : the Ground-type, allowing him to be immune for Volt-switch (an usual poke move used on shed, and latios for e.g) and preventing a switch from them. As soon you get both Shed and golurk on the field, it's done, shed is dead (except using some weird sets tbh).
    So Ground is immune to Volt-switch (and thunder wave, nice too). Ghost is immune to Endeavor (wait wat ? Scrappy Shedinja ?)
    Turboblaze + Pursuit is used so you kill Shed even with a regular switch. Rocky helmet because of U-turn possibility on shed. The only way shed will be able to go through this 100%-death is to run both choice scarf and baton pass.. Well.. Oh yeah, because even without a +Spd nature, Golurk is faster than Shed.
    Then the following moves are there to do the known combo : Spore the entire team then Whirl spam on Hazards.

    More incoming :)
  6. Adrian Marin

    Adrian Marin

    Joined:
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    [​IMG]
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Mold Breaker
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: NaN Atk
    - Spore
    - Stealth Rock
    - Heal Order/Spikes
    - Whirlwind

    This set works extremely well in the sand, sporing threats with incredible speed while walling them with a useful resistance to Dragon. It is worth noting that this set works best with Substitute support so that it can Spore without fear of Magic Coat. For Jirachi to succeed in annoying its opponents, it must find time to be used against Pokemon without Taunt. It is also mandatory to carry something that can block Spore and threaten it, such as standard Poison Heal Regigigas. Reliable Stealth Rock support and using Whirlwind on Magic Bouncers is also very useful.

    Also everyone, great posts!
  7. Filia

    Filia

    Joined:
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    Here's another on, known by some (kinda everyone that is regulary playing BH ^^), but still not there.
    This is just an example to show how BH can be fun !

    Latios

    Latios @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Sand Rush/Chlorophyll/Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid or Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Draco Meteor
    - Searing Shot / Volt Switch
    - Psytrike
    - Aurasphere / Searing Shot

    So, it's a regular sweeper, you use him on a weather team (not hail tho) and use the right trait. Draco Meteor OHKO Giratina/Palkia and actually every single dragon mons, besides Dialga (and this is why you might use secret sword, which cover Flash Fire Ferrothorn, a known counter) Searing Shot for weather introducer Esca/Ferro, Volt switch if you like pivots (but you might use this move for a pivot-based team). Psystrike hurts badly Ho-oh.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2013
  8. Keep it Playful

    Keep it Playful

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    May 19, 2013
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    Tyranitar @ Rocky Helmet/Leftovers
    Trait: Vital Spirit
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Crunch
    - Spikes/Head Smash
    - Rapid Spin
    - Recover

    My favorite Pokemon in the game, I came up with this set after trying to find a solid Deo-S counter. At first I had Magic Bounce, but I found Vital Spirit to be the better option as it counters even the Mold Breaker Spore from Deo-S. Then I realized that almost all Giratina sets can't touch Tyranitar, which makes him scare Giratina's away with Crunch, allowing him to spin away hazards easily.

    252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 204-242 (40.47 - 48.01%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 186-222 (36.9 - 44.04%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO

    Another mighty wall that Tyranitar dents is Lugia. Again, Tyranitar is rarely ever threatened by Lugia so he can be switched in at almost any time.

    252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Lugia: 194-230 (46.63 - 55.28%) -- 13.28% chance to 2HKO

    252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 176-210 (42.3 - 50.48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    I haven't tried Head Smash on my set yet, but looking at the calculations looks promising.

    252+ Atk Tyranitar Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Lugia: 362-428 (87.01 - 102.88%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO

    252+ Atk Tyranitar Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 330-390 (79.32 - 93.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    It wasn't my intention but my Tyranitar just happens to counter DracoMaster Lance's Poison Heal Mewtwo set perfectly, resisting Blue Flare and having immunity to Spore and Psystrike. This is rare because most Mewtwo's run Aura Sphere which will make quick work of Tyranitar.

    Stay away from Fighting attacks, which can be predicted fairly easily in this tier, as they are infrequent and this set should have great success!
    asterat likes this.
  9. Filia

    Filia

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    Oh thanks Playful ! I just needed a dark type mon to integrate in my team, and I didn't figured which one was cool enough to.
  10. Keep it Playful

    Keep it Playful

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    You're welcome! :)
  11. Rumors

    Rumors

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    So I'm doing some experimentation with Leafeon, Glaceon, and Victini. Despite being thrown together on a half-assed team that's missing important things such as Imposter and Sheddy counters, those three are kind of exceeding my expectations. I mean, I didn't exactly expect to be winning a good chunk of the battles with this team. Granted, I don't think I've ran into any of the really good players (or I simply didn't recognize them), but then again I'd probably lose to them with any sort of half-assed team, experimental or not.

    Anyway, I'll throw some write-ups for them later. There's some things I still want to try with them to see if they're more than one-trick wonders. In the mean time, lemme throw in a couple more tried and true obscure Pokemon I've used. These analysis are a bit in-depth, so expect a fair chunk of text.


    Darmitan-Z (open)

    I'm sure you're already well acquainted with normal form Darm. He's running around on sun teams, pwning everything with V-Create left and right. But what about his other form? The one that people wonder what Game Freak was smoking when they made it? A Pokemon so bad that it's not even in NU, but in Limbo? I present to you one of the most atrocious Pokemon in standard metas: Darm-Z.

    Thanks to the way BH works, you don't need Zen Mode to get Darm-Z. Rather, you can just plop him down on your team and get started. But why would you even want to do that? Well, let's look, shall we?

    Darm goes through significant changes other than turning into some ugly blue ball when it goes into Zen mode. Essentially, its stats, save HP, more or less invert and it picks up the Psychic-type in addition to its Fire type. Attack and Speed drop into the gutter whereas it's gutter bulk and special attack shoot way up. As a result, Darm-Z boasts 105/105/105 defenses which is not too shabby at all. And it backs them up with a base 140 Special Attack. Yes, you read that right. It's speed is only 55, which is a pain, but that's not too much of a problem.

    Darm-Z works as a great Unaware Pokemon as it resists most Contrary moves. Overheat, Leaf Storm, Psycho Boost, Close Combat, Super Power, V-Create... all shrugged off. Draco Meteor is the only Contrary move of note that does neutral damage (lest I'm forgetting something), but Darm-Z can take them from most special attackers. In terms of straight set-up, it really depends on who the attacker is, but Darm-Z does have the advantage of resisting Stored Power.

    Let's see a set, shall we?

    Unaware Counter-Sweeper (open)


    Darm-Z @ Leftovers or Lum Berry
    Unaware
    -Flamethrower/Lava Plume/Searing Shot/Blue Flare
    -Psystrike/Psychic
    -Recover
    -Quiver Dance/Heart Swap

    Darm-Z has bulk, but it also has excellent offensive potential. The idea in this set is to, instead of Perish Trapping, phasing, or doing the usual things to set-up sweepers and Contrary abusers, is to use them as set-up bait so Darm-Z can sweep. Preferably, you'll want to switch into a resisted attack or a neutral one Darm-Z can take about 30% from and then begin boosting. While it can't take repeated Draco Meteors from the likes of Kyurem-W initially, a single Quiver Dance puts it safely out of 2HKO range and lets it outspeed anything slower than base 106 speed, provided both it and the foe have similar natures in regards to speed (base 95 outspeeds +1 Darm-Z if the foe has a boosting nature and Darm-Z does not).

    Once it's set-up enough, usually +2 or +3 will be sufficient, Darm-Z can go on the offensive. The choice of STABs depends largely on preference, but each has their merits. Lava Plume for more PP + Burn, Flamethrower for decent power + more PP, Searing Shot for decent power + Burn, and Blue Flare for maximum power. The choice between Psychic and Psystrike is trickier. Psystrike let's Darm-Z deal with special walls such as Chansey or Regice (despite it's weakness, Unaware Regice can shrug off Darm-Z's Blue Flare), though it makes it harder to handle some other walls such as Regirock (though Regirock in the sand will be a PITA regardless). Darm's STAB coverage might not have the greatest SE coverage, but it has great neutral coverage and is only really walled by Lati@s. Ignoring Pokemon that tend not to appear in BH, such as Houndoom, at any rate.

    Heart Swap is an option if you'd rather steal your opponent's boosts. This is potentially more powerful as you can nab juicy V-Create and Draco Meteor boosts or someone's Shell Smash, but it's also less consistent and probably won't work a second time when you try it and also makes the set overall much weaker if there aren't any boosts to steal.

    It's also worth noting that this set is Imposter resistant. Darm-Z vs an Imposter will end in a stalemate as neither will be able to harm each other. This is good because it means the Imposter can't counter-sweep you, but bad because it means they can force a PP stall war if you don't have a safe switch in to a boosted Darm-Z.

    Archeops and Aerodactyl make good checks to this Darm-Z as they can both outspeed even +1 Timid Darm-Z without boosts of their own and can KO with Head Smash. However, they need to ensure they are not switching into an attack, especially a burning one if their Toxic Orb hasn't activated (or they're not carrying one at all) as neither will appreciate a burn or, in case of a Psychic-type attack, an outright KO. Keldeo can also outspeed +1 Darm and Waterspout the hell out of it, but it probably won't survive a Psychic-type counter attack.

    The best offensive counters are probably Prankster Groudon and Prankster Landorous. Both of them can pop off very powerful priority Earthquakes and can also sleep Darm-Z to do so safely if it does not have a Lum Berry.

    Defensively, Lati@s, as mentioned above, resist's Darm-Z's STAB coverage, though if Darm-Z has gotten to +2 then they can't do much to hurt it. Sheddy can force Darm-Z out as long as it's Lum Berry is intact or Safeguard is in play, but must be careful if it's lost its berry as even Flamethrower has a chance of killing the ghost bug.


    Darm-Z's primary weaknesses are Water, Ground, and Rock, so you'll need some teammates who can handle those. For example, Ferrothorn has the typing and bulk to shrug off most attacks of those types and makes a great partner as Darm-Z can take Fire and Fighting attacks aimed at it.

    I've not tried this extensively yet, but Darm-Z looks like it could pull off a sort of special version of Escalvalier's offensive Prankster sets. Something like Blue Flare + Copycat would surely leave some marks. I'm sure there's some other tricks up Darm-Z's sleeve, such as Trick Room abuse, Drought leads, or more standard sweeping sets. Really, there's a lot to explore here in this blue monkey ball thing.



    Froslass (open)

    I have little doubt that this one might be a bit more controversial since there's so few places where this ghost is a superior choice over others. But, bear with me please as it does have it's small niche.

    So, for starters... why would you ever want to use this thing? Sure, it has the same base speed as Gengar, which allows it to pull off the typical Normalize + Skill Swap combo just as fast, but, despite having very slightly better bulk, it's Sp. A is a good bit lower. So... why?

    In most cases, Gengar is the superior option. I'm not even going to argue that. But Froslass does have one major appeal: the Ice typing. This gives it a small niche that it can take advantage of that Gengar can't, particularly on Hail teams.

    Defensively, Ice vs. Gengar's Poison isn't too much of a change. Froslass doesn't have Gengar's crippling Psychic and Ground weaknesses, but it does pick up crippling Fire and Rock weaknesses (and Scrappy Fighting, but Gengar isn't going to like a Scrappy Fighting hit from most physical sweepers anyway). It also loses the novelty of spinning Toxic Spikes without having to spin at all as well as an immunity to Toxic, but it does pick up an immunity to residual damage from Hail. Hence, Froslass can operate on Hail teams without having to worry about its health ticking down slowly, which is great if it has to stay in for a significant period of time.

    Offensively, Froslass quite quickly makes up for it's lower Sp. A with it's Ice-STAB. What with all the Dragons running around in BH, not to mention a few relatively common fliers and ground types, the ability to fling around SE Ice Beams or, better yet, SE Blizzards is nothing to just casually dismiss. In comparison, Gengar's Poison STAB can hit... Virizion and Shaymin-S hard. And neither of those are common. And Froslass hits them harder anyway with it's Ice attacks, Shaymin especially. Having an Ice-STAB means it can be less reliant on it's Ghost-STAB, which is nice if you're using Spooky Plate Judgement and someone sneaks in a Trick or Knock Off on you as Gengar tends to become more or less useless after that.

    So, let's see a couple of sets...



    Normalize Skillswap (open)

    Froslass @ Spooky Plate or other offensive item.
    Normalize
    -Judgement/Shadow Ball
    -Blizzard/Ice Beam/Aura Sphere
    -Skill Swap
    -Shell Smash

    Essentially the same as Gengar's typical set, but it trades the ability to be Imposter immune for the ability to hit pretty darn hard after a Shell Smash against a wider variety of targets. Both Plate-boosted Judgement and Blizzard hit equally hard against foes with the same vulnerability, which means you don't have to be as worried about mispredicting as you would with Gengar, who has to worry about immunes on both attacks, and it also allows Froslass to net OHKOs against foes that Gengar can't after a single boost, such as Groudon and Zekrom. And, as said above, having Blizzard also let's it continue to attempt a sweep if it loses its Plate whereas the more typical ghost would get entirely walled by other ghosts or, ironically, an imposter. And if your opponent is Flint, Blizzard has boosted accuracy, critical hit rate, and is a guaranteed Freeze.

    Ice Beam is an option if you're worried about the weather changing on a Hail team or if you just don't like Blizzard's accuracy on a non-Hail team, though the power drop is significant. Shadow Ball is an option in the first slot if you want to use a different item, such as a Life Orb, though this will give Imposters a SE-move to use against you. You can also drop the Ice-STAB for Aura Sphere, but at that point the only reason to use Froslass over Gengar is to evade Hail damage.



    Hail Phasing Spin Blocker (open)

    Froslass @ Lum Berry or Leftovers
    Mold Breaker
    -Stealth Rock
    -Whirlwind
    -Spore/Copycat
    -Spikes/U-Turn/Recover/Taunt/Encore/Blizzard

    At first glance, this looks like something like Giratina can do better. Hazard-phazing while spin blocking non-scrappy Spinners? Yeah, Gira is generally better at that. However, Froslass' typing lets it do it in the Hail without worry about taking damage over time which allows it to recover health without having to stop and use Recover It also means it can run something other than Leftovers.

    But essentially, the only reason to run this set is if you're using Hail. Otherwise, just use Giratina or, if your team is already painfully vulnerable to Dragons, Jellicent.

    Anyway, you can probably expect how this works. Spore your victim if you're running that, set some hazards, and then hit Whirlwind. If you have Copycat, then proceed to abuse Froslass' base 110 speed and start spamming that.

    The last moveslot, which can be used for Spore or Copycat as well, depends on your wants and needs. Spikes adds some extra hazards, which will cause residual damage to quickly rack up. U-Turn lets Froslass scout possible counters and escape some dangerous situations. Taunt and Encore can stop Prankster counters in their tracks, though this is best used with the Lum Berry because nine times out of ten the first thing they'll do is fling a Spore at you. And finally, Blizzard is there to abuse the Hail you should have in play while letting Froslass avoid being total Taunt-bait. While it won't hit particularly hard, it doesn't really need to if you've racked up sufficient hazard damage. Hence, it's a great way to finish off a weakened Pokemon without having to phase it several more times. It also gives Froslass a way to harm Magic Guard Pokemon and, if you don't have enough hazards up, Regenerators.


    But yeah, in short, Froslass is a good ghost for Hail teams and has some merit with it's Ice STAB outside of Hail. It certainly won't be a superior choice over other Pokemon in most cases. In fact, you may very well never create a team where you'd want it. But it does have it's small niche.

    Due to its variety of weaknesses, Froslass does not like taking hits. Anything with a sufficiently powerful Dark, Ghost, Rock, Fire, Steel, or Scrappy-Fighting attack can often pull a OHKO. Hence, in order to stay alive, it needs to play tricky and evasive by utilizing it's good speed with Mold Breaker or by throwing Normalize Skill Swap around. Once the opponent has worked around those tricks, Froslass would be prudent to flee the battle until a better opportunity presents itself. Since it may be switching out often, you'll want to ensure Froslass has an odd amount of HP so it can switch into Stealth Rock fives times as opposed to four (before any healing or other sources of damage are accounted for).

    Defensively, Steel types are the easiest way to stop Froslass' offensive potential since they resist both of its STABs. However, their typing doesn't matter much to the phasing variant.

    It's interesting to note that most Shedinjas think that Froslass is a jerk since it is immune to Endeavor and Extreme Speed and also resists Ice Shard. Meanwhile, Froslass can either get rid of Sturdy or fling hazards at it and then phase it.
  12. Filia

    Filia

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Messages:
    15
    I just read it all.
    Some things I wanna say before going to sleep (2am there :|)

    1./ I just made the calcs, and according to the formula (not Honka because stored power is bugged), Darm-Z is 90% approx 2HKO by Lugia Stored power (according he's +6 Quiver dance). Jirachi might be better there (with a possible 6HKO) But he wins the resistance on fire, and thus on V-create (while Jirachi is weak to) so it might be fine.

    2./ Copycat is not a good option facing a prankster Ferro/Esca, because they're still slower so you'll get their moves if they deal dmg and they'll be faster with their own Copycat (coz' they're Prankster and you're not). But if the blue flare hits first, it might be OHKO (i'm too bored to do the calcs anymore soz)

    3./ Froslass is good, thanks for those sets (although they're not funnier than Flint's one, with his Normalize + Thunder wave haha). For the gengar style, I would personnaly recommend this one set :

    Froslass @ Spooky Plate
    Normalize
    -Judgement
    -Aura Sphere/Secret Sword
    -Skill Swap
    -Shell Smash

    Because Fighting/Ghost offensive combo hurts nearly everyone, and you're immune to imposters whom doesnt support spooky plate. I don't know which move is the best. Somehow, because of Shell Smash's boost, you'll outspeed nearly everyone, so Entrainment might be better to avoid every direct dmg moves. It's up to you.
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2013
  13. Rumors

    Rumors

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    465
    @1. If those calcs are right, Lugia's Stored Power would definitely be one of those situations where Heart Swap would be superior to Quiver Dance, though I'm not sure if your calculation is correct lest Lugia is running Unaware as well. I ran some numbers and Modest Lugia at +6 with max Stored Power (860 BP) inflicts only about 32% on +6 Unaware neutral-nature Darm-Z (no boosting item or ability for Lugia). I created some custom parameters to get around bugs to calculate this. I'm also not sure how often Stored Power gets above BP 200 (Quiver Dance at +6 only brings Stored Power to 380 unless my math is off).

    @2. This is about Froslass, right? Well regardless, I certainly agree that non-Prankster Copycat definitely has it's issues with opposing Pranksters (or the few things that outspeed Froslass, like Meloetta).

    @3. You need Skill Swap instead of Entrainment because Normalize will take precedent over the Spooky Plate (unless the damage calc is a liar). Which kind of sucks since Entrainment would otherwise let Froslass/Gengar stay in until a Magic Bouncer or Perish Singer shows up. Though Entrainment could still work if you didn't mind your attacks being Normal-typed. It wouldn't be the most threatening set, but it'd be hilariously trollish. A shame there's not a Normal/Ghost-type for Normalize Entrainment shenanigans.
  14. Filia

    Filia

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Messages:
    15
    I guess we gonna find out in game then ^^
    No i meant Copycat for Darm-Z, your speed is 55 and you're not prankster, there is no way you'll get the blue flare with a copycat.
    Yeah I just realized how stupid Entrainment was :) And then I added Secret Sword instead of Aurasphere (you still choose between those 2) because it's sometimes good to go through unaware chans.

    Normal/Ghost ??? That'd be as epic as Fighting/Dragon or Fire/Water haha
  15. sadoldpoygon22

    sadoldpoygon22

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
    Messages:
    88
    Slaking
    Adamant
    Adaptability/Scrappy
    - Explosion
    - ESpeed
    - Magic Coat
    - Protect
  16. Filia

    Filia

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Messages:
    15
    Another set I use to run to counter the usual Groudon's counter

    Groudon @ Iron Ball
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 252 everywhere (no need for SAtk tho)
    - Trick
    - Nature Power
    - Spore
    - Copycat

    So, you wait to know the whole opponent's team, then use trick-ball on the one giving you problems (usually the one flying such as Lugia, because they'll think Lugia is appropriate to counter you, lel). Then spore the non-bouncer ones (care you dont have lum berry nor magic coat). And sweep with Nature Power (Earthquake).
    Copycat instead of Recover because : you can use recover if they use it (with the +1 prior, you'll use this before they do a damaging moves), can break the whirlwind spam, or use anything you want with a priority :)
  17. Rumors

    Rumors

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    465
    The Blue Flare + Copycat bit was me speculating on a possible Prankster Darm-Z set. I've not tried it myself yet since I'm tooling around with other things right now, but it sounds promising.
  18. Adonzo

    Adonzo

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2008
    Messages:
    397

    I don't think anyone has ever said that Darm-Z was a bad poke, in fact I'd wager that many people would say its better than normal Darm. It just suffers from a horrible method of getting into that form. If you could start a battle with Darm-Z, it would probably be OU.
  19. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast ★KyleCole: god trick room is for fags
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a SPL Winner

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    Darmanitan-Z can be used on its own in BH with no forme change required.
  20. Adrian Marin

    Adrian Marin

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2011
    Messages:
    628
    [​IMG]
    Cobalion @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
    Bold Nature
    IVs: null Atk
    - Aura Sphere
    - Aromatherapy
    - Heal Order
    - Taunt

    If you are having problems with Shift Gear Poison Heal Regigigas or Swords Dance Poison Heal Arceus, you will notice that there are very few walls that can consistently take them down. Since Cobalion is one of the few, it is viable for this role. Bold Nature is mandatory if you choose to wall both, it's also worth noting that it still outspeed all +90 base Spe pokemons, which run rampant in the tier. Aura Sphere allows it to 3HKO Regigigas 96.92% and 4HKO Arceus 100% of the time.
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
  21. Lcass4919

    Lcass4919

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2013
    Messages:
    137
    this is my first time posting a set, so i apologize if i do something incorrect... xD

    Darmanitan-Zen @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (or you can run Modest)
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Quiver Dance
    - Fiery Dance
    - Leech Seed/Spore
    - Psystrike/Spore

    This is a sun sweeping darmanitan-zen that utilizes Poison heal. I use fiery dance because of the spc attack boost, but i guess you can run lava plume, flamethrower, blue flare or something else if you want. Leech seed is used so Shedinja can't wall it, and imposters cant have their way with Darmanitan-Z, while also somewhat helping break down unaware Pokemon. Psystrike is for unaware Blissey/Chansey and also as another stab option. spore is another good choice to place over leech seed or psystrike if you find the ability to counter shedinja/imposters pointless, or you feel like fire stab is all Darmanitan zen needs.
  22. Keep it Playful

    Keep it Playful

    Joined:
    May 19, 2013
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    127
    Lcass4919 your post looks great! : )

    I like the set, it looks to be a very effective sweeper. You've probably swept me with it before. I haven't used Darm-Z myself yet, but it looks very promising in the sun, especially after those Quiver Dance's to offset it's rather low base 55 speed.

    The Psychic/Fire plus Leech Seed/Spore coverage has few counters, but one comes to mind, the Vital Spirit Tyranitar set that I posted here a few posts back. It covers Psychic/Fire almost flawlessly, here's a calc:

    252+ SpA Darmanitan-Z Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Tyranitar in sun: 90-106 (22.27 - 26.23%) -- possible 4HKO

    That's in the Sun, where Darm is strongest, and in the Sand, it's a 9 HKO. I really like the set but my only suggestion for it would have it be able to deal with this certain Tyranitar because I run it often and since it's posted here, the chances of others running it are a lot higher.
  23. Filia

    Filia

    Joined:
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    The number of sweeper getting spore is too damn high..
    But obviously, it's a nice set we get there, except for Playful's TTar which is by far the best counter
  24. Rumors

    Rumors

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    There's also Flash Fire Ferrothorn, especially if Darm-Z is running Leech Seed and Psystrike over Spore. Lati@s also resists the Fire/Psychic combination. And then there's Houndoom... who nobody uses but I occasionally consider trying if just because it's reasonably quick, reasonably powerful, and has a unique type combination. Though I suspect it might be a bit underwhelming.


    Anyway, earlier I mentioned I was toying around with Victini and Glaceon. I've come to the conclusion that Victini is a bit underwhelming and outclassed (though quite usable) while Glaceon's niche over Kyurem-W might be a bit too small.

    Although these are not full analysis and are basically just a trio of paragraphs summarizing what I tried and why they feel outclassed to me, I'm going to spoiler tag em for space's sake. Besides, someone might remember that I brought them up as "I'm testing these right now" a bit ago and might be curious what my results were.

    Show Hide


    First Victini. I tried running a mixed Contrary set on it and, even in the sun, it felt like it took a bit of time for it to get going. STAB Overheat and Psycho Boost sound nice (and really, it is) as well as STAB V-Create. Base 100 speed is pretty good too. But those initial hits are just lacking. Sure, once it gets going it becomes dangerous, but that's true for pretty much Contrary anything. It's certainly usable though if you want that Fire/Psychic STAB coverage, but it certainly feels a bit outclassed. Kind of the same feeling as using Manetric in OU when Jolteon is resident Electric-type of the tier. Though Victini might actually be quite nasty with a different sort of set, I'm just not sure what.

    Glaceon's better off than Victini because it's only real problem is that Kyurem-W exists. It has the second strongest Ice-STAB in the game (tied with normal Kyurem) and decent bulk. So, it's certainly not bad and it can definitely perform. It's just difficult justifying using it over Kyurem-W. The main draw is the lack of a Dragon-weakness which let's it stay in against certain threats. The other is that it's low speed let's it run Prankster pretty well. A slow, STAB Blizzard followed up with a fast Copycat + Blizzard coming off of base 140 Special Attack hurts and can seriously scare anything weak to it. It's kind of like Escalvalier's Prankster + Copycat Gyro Ball. But as far as I toyed with it, those are really the only advantages it has over Kyurem-W. It's definitely usable and even has a tiny niche it can call home. But again, it's just difficult to justify using it over that dragon who can play in a much more straight-forward fashion. Of course, there might be something I didn't try that'd work wonders.

    Anyway, yeah. There's a couple of Pokemon that, while they can perform, are a bit underwhelming for various reasons. And also serve as proof that I'm not trying out random stuff and then rushing over here to say "OMG THIS IS AWESOME USE IT NOW!" regardless of how it actually performs. I'm mainly just bringing them up because I mentioned them earlier and there's a chance someone out there is wondering "Hey, Rumors said he was trying out Victini and Glaceon. I wonder what became of that?" And maybe someone will figure out something I missed with these two.


    Oh, and also, Pain Split + Shedinja = doesn't work. Well, it sort of works, but it doesn't bring the victim down to 1 or 2 HP. I am simultaneously disappointed and relieved.
  25. Kl4ng

    Kl4ng

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2013
    Messages:
    226
    It's the most damage that it can do to Gira and ignores rocky helmet which makes it worth having a look at as well as sporting 32 PP, which makes it a decent choice. Shedinja does have pretty bad 4MSS though.

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