The OU List

[obi]

Tentacruel comes to mind as the poster Pokemon. I'm not even sure what the exact OU list would be at the moment, so I'm afraid I can't offer more than that.

 

[X-Act]

Well... umm... please tell me what to do because I'm getting confused now, lol. I'd like a final stand, although we really have already discussed this.

There are three ways of tackling this:

1) Only allow BL Pokemon to be in OU. A UU overused Pokemon (lol) would stay UU forever.
2) Do as we were going to do, but if a UU Pokemon ends up as OU, then it's written in both the OU and UU tiers (suggested previously by Swimrunner).
3) Do as we were going to do, i.e. all overused Pokemon end up as OU, regardless of where they were previously.

 

[obi]

Well, if a Pokemon that was OU isn't used enough to be OU any more, we'd just consider it for BL or UU. If it was previously UU, it's safe to say it goes back to UU, and if it was previously BL, it would likely go back into BL.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Well the possibility of pokes going from ou that wouldnt unbalance UU isnt a big deal. Since OU and BL are functionally identical we can just move pokemon to BL and discuss them and move them when we reach a consensus.

But the possibility of UUs jumping straight to OU would be very disruptive.. Maybe we could just have a grace period where a pokemon could be in both OU and UU I dunno..

HAve a nice day.

 

[X-Act]

@Obi: That is exactly what I was going to do. In fact, the algorithm would run as follows:

1) Start with the following tiers:

[Uber]
arceus
darkrai
deoxys
deoxys-a
deoxys-d
deoxys-s
dialga
giratina
groudon
ho-oh
kyogre
latias
latios
lugia
manaphy
mew
mewtwo
palkia
rayquaza
wobbuffet
 
[OU]
<none>
 
[BL]
abomasnow
aerodactyl
alakazam
ambipom
arcanine
articuno
azelf
azumarill
blaziken
blissey
breloom
bronzong
charizard
celebi
cresselia
crobat
donphan
drapion
dragonite
dugtrio
dusknoir
electivire
empoleon
entei
espeon
exeggutor
feraligatr
floatzel
flygon
forretress
gallade
garchomp
gardevoir
gengar
gliscor
gyarados
hariyama
heatran
heracross
hippowdon
honchkrow
houndoom
infernape
jirachi
jolteon
jynx
kingdra
leafeon
lickilicky
lucario
ludicolo
machamp
magmortar
magnezone
mamoswine
marowak
medicham
mesprit
metagross
milotic
miltank
mismagius
moltres
ninjask
porygon2
porygon-z
raikou
rampardos
regice
regigigas
regirock
registeel
rhyperior
roserade
salamence
sceptile
scizor
skarmory
slaking
slowbro
slowking
shaymin
shedinja
smeargle
snorlax
spiritomb
staraptor
starmie
steelix
suicune
swampert
tangrowth
tauros
togekiss
torterra
typhlosion
tyranitar
umbreon
ursaring
uxie
vaporeon
venusaur
weavile
weezing
yanmega
zangoose
zapdos
 
[UU]
absol
aggron
altaria
ampharos
arbok
ariados
armaldo
banette
bastiodon
beautifly
beedrill
bellossom
bibarel
blastoise
butterfree
cacturne
camerupt
carnivine
castform
chatot
cherrim
chimecho
claydol
clefable
cloyster
corsola
cradily
crawdaunt
delcatty
delibird
dewgong
ditto
dodrio
drifblim
dunsparce
dustox
electrode
exploud
farfetchd
fearow
flareon
froslass
furret
gastrodon
girafarig
glaceon
glalie
golduck
golem
gorebyss
granbull
grumpig
hitmonchan
hitmonlee
hitmontop
huntail
hypno
illumise
jumpluff
kabutops
kangaskhan
kecleon
kingler
kricketune
lanturn
lapras
ledian
linoone
lopunny
lumineon
lunatone
luvdisc
luxray
magcargo
manectric
mantine
masquerain
mawile
meganium
mightyena
minun
mothim
mr_mime
muk
nidoking
nidoqueen
ninetales
noctowl
octillery
omastar
pachirisu
parasect
pelipper
persian
pidgeot
pikachu
pinsir
plusle
politoed
poliwrath
primeape
probopass
purugly
quagsire
qwilfish
raichu
rapidash
raticate
relicanth
rotom
sableye
sandslash
scyther
seaking
seviper
sharpedo
shiftry
shuckle
skuntank
solrock
spinda
stantler
sudowoodo
sunflora
swalot
swellow
tentacruel
torkoal
toxicroak
tropius
unown
venomoth
vespiquen
victreebel
vileplume
volbeat
wailord
walrein
whiscash
wigglytuff
wormadam
wormadam-g
wormadam-s
xatu
 
[NU]
<none>
 
[Limbo]
<none>
 
[NFE]
.
.
.

Then, after choosing the OU Pokemon using what we said before, move them from where they are in the above list to OU. We could maybe copy any overused UU Pokemon to OU instead of moving it.

EDIT: Also, using November's and October's statistics, Tentacruel would be the only current UU Pokemon which would go to OU.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Thinking about it, if we have useage statistics, what is the purpose of seperating the OU and BL tiers. Wouldnt it be easier just to have BL (renamed OU) and UU and if people want to know what pokemon are commonly used they could just look straight at the statistics..

To me it seems the most elegant solution..

Though I realise I am sorta tramping on a lot of hard work.

Have a nice day.

 

[obi]

I was thinking about that, too, but then I decided that having the BL tier makes it easier to see just what is being blocked from UU based on power, which helps for debating what ought to be UU. The tiers could still have a link to the usage statistics.

 

[chaos]

I think if a Pokemon in UU ends up being OU, there's nothing we CAN do except move it. It would be misleading otherwise...

BL isn't leaving, don't bother.

 

[X-Act]

@Hipmonlee: Because, no matter what people use, the BL tier is set in stone. If, say, Regigigas is used only by 1% of people, Regigigas must still stay in BL and not in UU, because it would overcentralise UU. This is despite the fact that Kangaskhan, say, might be used more than Regigigas. BL is not determined by usage.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

@Hipmonlee: Because, no matter what people use, the BL tier is set in stone. If, say, Regigigas is used only by 1% of people, Regigigas must still stay in BL and not in UU, because it would overcentralise UU. This is despite the fact that Kangaskhan, say, might be used more than Regigigas. BL is not determined by usage.

I think Hipmonlee knows what he's talking about.

The original use of tier lists were to show people who was most popular, so they'd know what to make counters for.

Now we have far more accurate lists. So there isn't really any point in tier lists anymore. For tournamnets we can say 'Anything with over 10,000 uses last month is banned from this tournament', and people now know exactly who is most popular, so what to counter.

I wonder if Shoddy Battle can list the most popular movesets, natures, hold items, etc. on each Pokemon. Now THAT would be interesting...

 

[chaos]

Ok, that's nice, but who cares. There are merits to the current tier system that a huge list of raw statistics does not provide. The current tier system is ingrained into the minds of this community. Don't go offtopic in this thread.

 

[Blue Kirby]

I can see what you're trying at there, Hipmonlee, but I see no valid reason to deviate from the precedent set by previous generations. From my perspective, the statistics now available to us strengthen the case for a consistently updated tier list.

I understand the possibility of some UU Pokemon being shifted to OU due to the nature of the concept, but as I see it, the only arguments that arise are purely because players don't want it to move. If you look at it from a completely unbias perspective, if Tentacruel is used enough, it simply must be OU.

EDIT: Furthermore, having OU and UU tiers based on a Pokemon's power (and letting players look at the statistics for usage) is counter-intuitive; why would tiers previously conceived on usage alone now be constructed to represent power?

Sure, it may operate without imbalancing the UU metagame, but that doesn't mean it has to stay in the UU tier. From an unbias perspective, I don't really see how the concept can really cause a problem. It will really just force players to find comparable options if the metagame really shifts to such a drastic degree. I think the system will be more stable than many people think.

I'm all for the idea of approaching a Pokemon's tier in a completely unbias manner, ergo option 3.

 

[X-Act]

I know Hipmonlee knows what he's talking about.

The tiers are still important. You can't just say "Pokemon below 10,000 usages are UU". I'll mention Regigigas again. Say Regigigas is used as much as Caterpie in OU. Does that make it UU or even NU? No, because it overcentralises the UU metagame. All Pokemon in the BL tier cannot go lower than the BL tier even if they get 0% usage in OU. See why tiering Pokemon is still important?

EDIT: This was in answer to SHUCKLE MAN.

 

[Phuquoph]

Well... umm... please tell me what to do because I'm getting confused now, lol. I'd like a final stand, although we really have already discussed this.

There are three ways of tackling this:

1) Only allow BL Pokemon to be in OU. A UU overused Pokemon (lol) would stay UU forever.
2) Do as we were going to do, but if a UU Pokemon ends up as OU, then it's written in both the OU and UU tiers (suggested previously by Swimrunner).
3) Do as we were going to do, i.e. all overused Pokemon end up as OU, regardless of where they were previously.

I like the bolded option. Option 2 also seems fine, but might be confusing to some. It seems that we would be contradicting ourselves somewhat by using option 3. Pokemon get banned from UU because they're too powerful, yet those in OU are there because they see a lot of play.

 

[chaos]

That doesn't make any sense. If a Pokemon ends up being used a lot, why WOULDN'T we put it in OU? I'd like the lists to not be completely arbitrary, thanks. My bet is that this hardly happens.

 

[Agahnim]

Of the 3 options by X-act, I think option 3 should be the one used. Based on how the tiers are defined , only option 3 makes sense.

The gap between OU to BL/UU is supposed to be based on usage. Therefore option 1 definitely makes no sense. I dont like option 2 simply because it does not make sense for a Pokemon to be both over and underused at the same time.

 

[green_flash]

Of the 3 options by X-act, I think option 3 should be the one used. Based on how the tiers are defined , only option 3 makes sense.

The gap between OU to BL/UU is supposed to be based on usage. Therefore option 1 definitely makes no sense. I dont like option 2 simply because it does not make sense for a Pokemon to be both over and underused at the same time.

^ Agreeing

Looking at the current OU list, I'd only consider Yanmega and maybe Donphan to be UU if they were not overused

Donphan is quite easily walled by any UU bulky water; it is also walled by the like of Meganium and Claydol, and the same goes for Flygon; probably they would be UU if not used much. Yanmega is definitely not acceptable in the UU tier, since it is actually easier to wall Tyranitar than him with UUs.. also I will probably be bashed a lot for this, but I do not see Skarmory being that much of a problem between Underused, with the abundance of Rapid Spinners and his lack of offensive capabilities. Sure it will never happen that Skarmory's popularity decreases any time soon. =)

 

[X-Act]

As a rule, I'll be assuming, however, that if a Pokemon currently is in the OU tier and is no longer used frequently (Slowbro is a perfect example of this), then it will go to BL.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I know Hipmonlee knows what he's talking about.

The tiers are still important. You can't just say "Pokemon below 10,000 usages are UU". I'll mention Regigigas again. Say Regigigas is used as much as Caterpie in OU. Does that make it UU or even NU? No, because it overcentralises the UU metagame. All Pokemon in the BL tier cannot go lower than the BL tier even if they get 0% usage in OU. See why tiering Pokemon is still important?

EDIT: This was in answer to SHUCKLE MAN.

That's not quite what I was getting at.

The tier lists were originally used to show the popularity of Pokemon. Now we have a better list, the tier lists aren't really needed.

If we imagine there are tiers, then Regigigas is both UU/NU and BL isn't it? In terms of USAGE he is UU/NU, simply because is is UnderUsed. He is put in a faux TIER, BL, because he'd be too good for the UU tier. If Regigigas got 0 usages, it would be Never Used, even if it were in the BL tier, because it was literally Never Used.

To sum up. We no longer need tier lists because we have far more accurate usage lists. For tournaments, you can cut off Pokemon above a certain popularity, and ban any overcentralizing Pokemon. This is what the tier lists were doing, except now we have much more flexibility.

With tiers, we have to ban the most used (usually Blissey), and the least OU Pokemon. If we don't use tiers (or have many more of them), we can ban the top 30 from a certain tournament, therefore we'll be able to keep things like Vaporeon, Zapdos, etc. in it.

 

[chaos]

The tier system is staying as-is. I'm serious, don't bother with any radical proposals, or continue discussing this new system in this thread (especially because it sounds exactly like what we're already doing, except fine-grained to a point where it's impractical). More signal, less noise please!

 

[obi]

1) Only allow BL Pokemon to be in OU. A UU overused Pokemon (lol) would stay UU forever.

In other words, if people didn't use a Pokemon much when the game was new, it's going to be UU forever. This essentially makes all usages after the first 3 months (or, if we keep the original tier list, all usages period) meaningless.

 

[chaos]

k, I've seen enough discussion on this. Let's go with option 3.

X-Act, I'll write a quick python script in smogon.tools to autogenerate these tiers later today. If you're interested in Smogon development, I recommend learning how Subversion works and PMing me a password for SVN. You'll be able to download the entire Smogon source code and use the smogon.tools package (but not anything else, since the rest of it requires an extensive amount of installed libraries and MySQL properly setup)

Is there anything I need to know that isn't in your explanation in the tiers thread? (I haven't read it yet)