Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)

[Jaroda]

Oh cool, I didn't get a chance to vote, but I would have chosen Dry Skin Escavalier regardless. It's one of those changes of brilliance if you ask me. I just love the irony of making what would normally be a drawback a moot point considering it dies to Fire attacks outright.

Anyway I see a pretty awesome core with Escavalier, Heatran and Landorus-T. Escavalier absorbs Water attacks for the other two and bulky all around, Heatran absorbs Fire attacks and is generally specially defensive and spreads burns with WoW as well as Roar out set-up sweepers, and Lando-T is immune to Ground and resists Fighting for them while packing Intimidate and is good physically defensive. I'd probably run a Scarf on Lando here.

The biggest problem to the core would be Mega Gyarados who just rips through all three with +1 Mold Breaker Waterfall/Earthquake.

As for sets for the snail, it really comes down to Assault Vest and Choice Band.

Escavalier@Assault Vest
Dry Skin
Careful/Adamant 252 HP / 4 At / 252 SpD
Adamant 252 HP / 252 At / 4 SpD
~ Iron Head
~ Megahorn/X-Scissor
~ Knock Off
~ Drill Run/Facade

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 87-103 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 74-87 (21.5 - 25.2%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dry Skin Escavalier: 228-272 (66.2 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO That's honestly amazing.
252 Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 486-572 (160.9 - 189.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Escavalier Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 238-280 (78.8 - 92.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 199-235 (57.8 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Escavalier Drill Run vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 108-128 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Unfortunately Secret Sword will 2HKO if you try to switch into that, meaning it isn't safe switching into a Keldeo that isn't already spamming Hydro Pump. Best move you can use on him is Drill Run, or Pursuit as he leaves from trapped into Hydro Pump.

252+ Atk Escavalier Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 163-192 (53.6 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With Facade you'll be able to handle Rotom-W who unless it has Pain Split has no choice but to Volt Switch out, but Facade here means Escavalier won't be a sitting duck, even if it would more likely be a 3HKO against physical variants.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 107-126 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- 63.3% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Escavalier Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 99-117 (30.9 - 36.5%) -- 63.9% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Escavalier Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 123-145 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Escavalier can manage to Knock Off Lando-I's Life Orb making him much easier to handle. You can always 2HKO with max Adamant Iron Head though.

I think there's a sweet spot between At and SpD EVs because Escavalier needs to remain bulky enough to turn these special hits into 3HKOs and remain strong enough to 2HKO himself. The problem is his coverage is poor, and he's SO slow he'll always take two hits no matter what you switch into, even Slowbro!

4 Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 234-276 (81.8 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Escavalier Drill Run vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (Fire type) Greninja: 208-246 (72.7 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dry Skin Escavalier: 255-302 (74.1 - 87.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The balance here is so delicate for example. You need all the SpD investment you can get to survive that HP Fire, and even with Life Orb recoil Drill Run isn't guaranteed to KO.

 

[U-Ralph]

The first thing that comes to mind here is that having a Dry Skin/Water Absorb Pokémon in OU immediately makes Scald a less spammable move. The Pokémon that are affected by this the most are, of course, Bulky Waters, but more specifically, Pokémon like Specs Keldeo and Suicune are disadvantaged the most because Esca's very presence on the other side of the field makes them far harder, or even impossible, to use. That said, I'm not sure that Dry Skin Escavalier will be that metagame-defining; after having a look at the VR thread, I can count seven Water-type Pokémon in A- and above (counting Gyarados and it's mega as separate Pokémon). Here's a list so you don't have to check as well:

Azumarill
Greninja
Gyarados
M-Gyarados
Keldeo
Manaphy
Rotom-W

252+ Atk Escavalier Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO
Against Azumarill, Escavalier walls most of it's moves, but can't really hit it back. Azumarill is able to Belly Drum up in Esca's face while it can't do more that about 50% back, meaning that it can't kill Azu after the Sitrus Berry regen. After that,
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 342-402 (99.4 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
In short, it's setup bait. Of course, Azu is left about about 25% of it's health, meaning that it's easy enough to take out, but it's still a terrible check to BellyJet.

Escavalier is a hard counter to Greninja, however, if it doesn't run Hidden Power [Fire]. The standard set fails to 3HKO with Dark Pulse, after which Esca can simply Megahorn it to death. Even if it picks a move that makes it neutral to Megahorn, it still OHKOs. It can U-Turn out, and Megahorn is a risky move when couple with Dark Pulse's 20% chance to flinch, but that's not something a Greninja user can rely on. Escavalier could do this before it received Dry Skin, however, as even without it Hydro Pump is still a 3HKO. The new ability just makes it easier to come in. One has to scout for Hidden Power, though.

Gyarados is a tricky one: an un-mega evolved MGyarados walls all of Esca's moves all day, as Knock Off doesn't remove it's item and it resists or is immune to everything else Esca commonly carries. This means that it can simply use Escavalier as setup bait, and if it decides to stay in:
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 313-370 (90.9 - 107.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
If it's not a mega, however, Gyarados can boost up on it but has to take repeated Knock Off punishment, meaning that non-RestTalk variants lose:
(assuming Esca switched in on Gyarados)
252+ Atk Escavalier Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 146-172 (43.9 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Escavalier Knock Off vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 97-115 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 7% chance to 3HKO

Keldeo is another difficult one to deal with if you're facing a clever player. The only move it can use to hurt Escavalier is Secret Sword, and while it does sting (252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 199-235 (57.8 - 68.3%)), Esca takes little from it's other moves, and discourages it from spamming it's Water moves mindlessly, making it easier to set up in Keldeo's face with unlikely Pokémon such as SubTox Aegislash and SD Talonflame. Escavalier has a lot of influence against Keldeo, as the presence of Dry Skin causes all sorts of interesting mindgames. This one is still dicey, though.

Manaphy is hard walled. Not much to say here, so have some more calcs:
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 104-123 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- 36.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 220-261 (64.5 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Again, if Escavalier becomes a major contender it may begin to run Hidden Power [Fire].

Rotom is not countered by Escavalier, at all. While it can switch in on Hydro Pump, washing machine outspeeds and can Volt Switch away or just burn it, and then Volt Switch away.

----
So out of seven Water-types in A- and above, it hard-counters Manaphy and Greninja, but performs poorly against the other five. That said, however, on top of Manaphy and Greninja it also acts as a great answer to Tyranitar, Bisharp (with Drill Run), MVenusaur, Suicune, Lati@s that lack HP [Fire] and Kyu-B, among others. On the flipside, it's either wrecked or setup on by all of S-rank (Aegislash can simply King's Shield against anything it carries and force it out, with minimal repercussions should it switch immediately), and the prevalence of Heatran, Talonflame and the Charizard bros alone make it necessary to play conservatively with Esca. All in all, I'm not convinced that an immunity to Water-type attacks is enough to earn it a place in top-tier OU, but, to use the viability rankings, I would place it at around B.

I agree with you bar the Aegislash point: aegislash is faster than escavalier, then it will be hitted in its blade form.
Just some calc to show you how it is hard for aegislash to manage it:
-2 252+ Atk Escavalier Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 208-246 (64.1 - 75.9%)
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 102-121 (29.6 - 35.1%)

 

[Chou Toshio]

This is really interesting, because Escavalier is a theorymon that has changed a lot between 5th and 6th gens. At first I kind of dismissed the idea, since it is obvious that Drizzle's nerf would make this thoerymon much less relevant and interesting-- or so I thought.

While the metagame is decidedly less friendly to Dry Skin Escavalier without permanent drizzle, Escavalier itself has become way stronger! The addition of Drill Run to its move pool (couldn't believe BW2 tutors didn't give it this...) and the Knock Off buff give it the anti-steel coverage that Esca always DREAMED of. Facade boosting through the attack drops ain't bad either! On the other hand, Fairies DO make for good escavalier prey, and are a nice addition to the meta from its perspective (at least the ones not carrying Fire Blast / Flamethrower).

On the other hand, I think it's also clear that Esca now has massive 4 move slot syndrome, with Mega Horn / Iron Head almost a necessity, and Knock Off / Drill Run both desired coverage, with Pursuit / Facade / Aerial Ace needed to take on specific threats.

Still, here's a run down of the threats Escavalier handles:

Almost 100% Trapped and Killed (without HP Fire):
Latios
Latias
Starmie
Deoxys-S (without Fire Punch)
Gengar
Alakazam

Almost always beaten (without HP Fire):
Azumarril (non-belly drum)
Deoxys-D
Kyurem-B (Sub / Ice Beam / Earth Power / Fusion Bolt)
Manaphy
Greninja
Chansey
Politoed
Suicune
Sylveon
Espeon (baton pass puts it not in the first list)
Blastoise
Kingdra

Pokemon it somewhat checks:
Aegislash
Keldeo (needs Aerial Ace or CB Return to be really solid)
Tyranitar
Clefable (if lacking Fire Blast)
Terrakion
Mamoswine
Kabutops
Scollipede (always wins 1 on 1, but can't stop BP)
Absol
Togekiss (if lacking fire blast)
Slowbro (if lacking Fire Blast)


While many of these are Pokemon Escavalier can check or beat even without Dry Skin, the threats it adds to this list with dry skin are notable enough to make Escavalier way more relevant, and give it just enough utility as a "swiss army knife" needed to unhinge the metagame. It probably would never be a top metagame threat, and might struggle to make the A- cutoff, but I think Escavalier would definitely be relevant, and a major asset to several teams-- especially rain teams!

 

[amzaneok]

It's worth noting that Dry Skin allows Escavalier to thrive on rain teams more than it already does. Its incredible bulk and typing allow it to pair very well with common Swift Swimmers, such as Kabutops and Kingdra, and it pairs fantastically with Keldeo, having near perfect type synergy. It's also valuable for its ability on rain teams to take a Thunder Wave which threatens most other common members. The added recovery from Dry Skin allows it to take hits with its pivot role much easier. With the pseudo-buff to Steel-types offensively, the Knock Off buff, and a new way to get past Steel-types, Escavalier is by no means a Pokémon to underestimate this generation.

I've always felt it was heavily underrated, and Dry Skin would give it a lot more utility and opportunities to heal itself.

Escavalier @ Leftovers / Choice Band
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Drill Run / Pursuit / Return

That's probably what I would use to utilize its role as a bulky offensive pivot. Assault Vest isn't a bad idea either.

Edit: I just noticed it has access to Rain Dance. It could make a pretty decent setter with Dry Skin making up for the loss of Leftovers recovery if running Damp Rock.

 

[Salemance]

With the ability to fight off premier threats, I'm gonna say that I think my ideal set would be a little silly one.

Escavalier
Leftovers
Dry Skin
252 HP / 96 Atk / 160 Def
Impish
-Megahorn
-Drill Run/Return
-Knock Off
-Iron Head

With this set, he insures to be a better "hard counter" to rain. With Lefties and his Defensive EVs, he is able to survive the choice spec Sword of Keldeo-

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Escavalier: 156-184 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

While he himself is really un able to hurt as much as his more offensive sets (his best options gainst Keld are Return, which deals 40% max with this set), he is able to ensure a more even match up, as he can cripple the pony while coming in to heal at a later point.

Then gainst the two Physically offensive Behemoths of Rain:

252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Escavalier: 148-175 (43 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Escavalier: 124-147 (36 - 42.7%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

While in return Esca does...

96 Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 336-396 (101.2 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
96 Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 174-205 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
96 Atk Escavalier Drill Run vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 156-184 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

He might have been able to OHKO Kabutops with say an Adamant nature, but he would not be able to stop them as well as he could.

I think, while not the easiest to spam (CB set is fun to spam, sure), but I like the idea of him being able to be a nice pivot now that he can take some of the damage he once could not.

 

[Jaroda]

Hmm, that's actually an interesting point. If you actually use him on a Rain team he would probably fare much better using Leftovers in conjunction with the passive health recovery than merely an Assault Vest.

 

[AJC]

one point i see people missing is the scald immunity so this would let escavalier switch in on common scald users without risking a burn meaning the only way to burn it would be wisp and since dry skin is boosting fire damage most it's dying anyways due to the 4x weak with the added 25% boost from dry skin to a legit fire move anyways so outside of really weak HP fires this downside matters very little..

basically it lets it use swords dance like zard-X does against scald users since it doesn't fear random scald burn.

 

[alexwolf]

Discussion is finished. Let's move on to our next slate:

• Water Shuriken Cloyster (Thisisafake name)
  
• Defog Whimsicott (Reigaheres)
  
• Electric / Dark Luxray (escarlata)
  
• Scald Blissey (alexwolf)

You have 24 hours to vote. Only vote for one theorymon, and the theorymon with the most votes wins. Don't forget to bold your votes, otherwise they won't count. In the case of a tie, we will vote again for the two theorymon that tied, with another day time limit. Start voting!

And here is the competitive merit behind each theorymon:

Water Shuriken Cloyster: Strong Water STAB with priority? Yes please. Thanks to Skill Link, Cloyster gets a 75 BP priority Water move, meaning it has no longer to choose between Ice Shard and Rock Blast on the last slot, enabling it to get past Pokemon such as Mega Mawile, Talonflame, Bisharp, and Conkeldurr that could KO it with priority before. Furthermore, Water Shuriken doesn't make contact, meaning that Aegislash can't weaken Cloyster with King's Shield. So, Water Shuriken helps Cloyster with his Aegislash and moveslot problem simultaneously.

Defog Whimsicott: Obviously Prankster is great, but what's even better is that Whimsicott has all the tools needed to make sure that the hazards stay off the field (Taunt) while checking some major threats (Keldeo, Latios, Latias, Dragonite, Landorus-T, Azumarill, Garchomp, and Terrakion) with its typing and priority Encore. The move also makes perfect sense flavor-wise given that Whimsicott learns Hurricane.

Electric / Dark Luxray: Luxray can now deal with Pokemon such as Aegislash, Deoxys-S, Gengar, and Bisharp, while also making for a potentially good Choice Scarf user, as we all know how fast Electric-types are in big demand, and a physical attacking one with the ability to benefit from status and STAB Crunch is something new. Both Guts and Intimidate are fantastic abilities on it, and its movepool is good enough to cover everything it wants to, with moves such as Wild Charge, Superpower, Ice Fang, Fire Fang, Thunder Fang, Crunch, and Volt Switch.

Scald Blissey: What are Blissey's biggest flaws? Being set up bait for physical attackers and being mostly outclassed by Chansey. Serene Grace Scald and its 60% chance to brun solves both problems and if Blissey is able to boil her eggs she should be able to save some boiled water and throw it to her enemies right?

 

[D-Ssain]

Electric/Dark Luxray.

Scald Blissey is a very good option but missing out on Natural Cure for Serene Grace doesn't seem worth it, plus Blissey is already very good.

 

[Axa]

Cloyster and Blissey feel like they won't have too much room for creative discussion - Blissey would almost always be running Scald since there's little downside to running it over another move unless she's up against something with Water Absorb, and even then Toxic usually solves that problem. Cloyster would always run Water Shuriken if it gets it.

Defog Whimsicott is interesting. Bisharp remains a threat, but Whimsicott could possibly just SubSeed it to death.

Still, I think Electric/Dark Luxray is the most creative option.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Defog Whimsicott

All of these are so good. Though Water Shuriken Cloyster KINDA (Not does) breaks flavor, and Scald Blissey also does this. It was hard between this and Luxray, but in the end, if Shiftry can get Defog, why not Whimsicott? And besides, the current users of Prankster + Defog are weak to Stealth Rock, so having one that isn't is a welcome addition. And besides, the added weakness to U-Turn on Luxray sucks (Most of the usuable Dark-types in the tier except Absol and one I think I may be forgetting are neutral to Bug). Maybe you can use Crunch/Wild Charge/Superpower/Fire Fang to at least do damage to the common U-Turn users (Except Torn-T, which Luxray can beat with STAB).

 

[GroovyGator]

All of these are awesome, but Scald Blissey is definitely my favorite.

 

[Rechi]

Electric/Dark Luxray

 

[Red Cat]

My thoughts on these:

Water Shuriken Cloyster: It sounds good, but it is an offensive buff.

Defog Whimsicott: Whimsicott still has poor bulk which makes it a less than ideal defogger. It can get off an emergency Defog with Prankster, but it will die.

Electric/Dark Luxray: Drapion is mostly better.

Scald Blissey: It has to give up Natural Cure and a moveslot for Scald. Mega Charizard X and Conkeldurr don't care about Scald. I don't know if Scald really makes it worth using over Chansey.

I'm not really impressed with this slate, so I'll just go with Water Shuriken Cloyster even though I don't like offensive buffs.

 

[SuperWumbology]

I'm sorry alexwolf, but Scald Blissey would be literally Hitler.

Electric/Dark Luxray would sound very interesting, but I think my vote goes to Water Shuriken Cloyster.

 

[Seiterman]

Let's see here...

Water Shuriken Cloyster is obviously a big improvement over regular Cloyster, but not what I'd consider interesting. Defog Whimsicott gives it a great niche as a Prankster hazard remover, though not one that can really deal with Bisharp if it carries Steel STAB (not that that's a deal breaker, mind you.) Luxray's new typing doesn't strike me as enough to really get it viability, though it makes sense flavor-wise. It's still got crummy stats outside of Attack, meaning it'll be slow without a Scarf and frail with (though Intimidate definitely helps.) Finally, Scald Blissey is potentially the most infuriating thing one could ever face, and not something I wish on most human beings. Even with Natural Cure Blissey would probably run Scald. There's little in terms of safe switch-ins. It is really interesting from an effect-on-the-metagame standpoint though.

Defog Whimsicott will be my pick for this round. Though it may not be the best Defogger, the increased utility is awesome, and a new hazard remover would likely affect the metagame in neat ways.

 

[DuskSoul]

Electric/Dark Luxray I've always had a soft spot for that cat, one of my favourite pokémon ever and anything that could make it viable in OU is great in my books

 

[Aquaslash]

Water Shuriken Cloyster

I need this in my life

 

[vyomov]

Electric/Dark Luxray

 

[alexwolf]

Water Shuriken Cloyster

 

[zyzzyva]

Love the idea of Water Shuriken Cloyster. Priority that is just 5 (7.5 after STAB) BP weaker than Waterfall and adds some extra coverage sounds like a great addition, and yet it's not overpowering or anything. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense flavor wise, but hey... whatever :p

 

[rachet67]

Ugh, Scald Blissey sounds like a nightmare.

A buffed Cloyster doesn't sound like it will make the meta that much more interesting, and honestly, the idea of Cloyster with a priority 75* BP move that can break subs just stresses me out.

I'm going to go with Defog Whimsicott. Can never have to many defoggers and access to a fast taunt really helps.

 

[alexwolf]

How does Water Shuriken not make sense flavor-wise on Cloyster? Cloyster already gets Spikes, which are pretty close to shurikens...

 

[wisc]

Water Shuriken Cloyster can finally hit steel types now. More priority makes it even more deadly.

 

[ninjawhitetiger]

i really like the idea of dark electric luxray but i don't really thing just that type change would make it any more viable because all it really does is give it stab on crunch and give it more weaknesses, I think that the water shurikan cloyster is the most competitively viable threat in this round, allowing it to hit steel types like jirachi and aegislash neutrally and the combination of skill link would be great, give that thing a king's rock and may the lol's begin