Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)

[royzizzle]

Jellicent has Will-O-Wisp to deal with physical attackers and it counters Keldeo and Thundurus, two of the most common special set-up pokemon, what else do you want?
Tangrowth gained new things like resistance to fighting. Poison also hurts any wall or pivot so your point about it not caring is invalid
Sceptile: I don't like it, but what that was bad about it was its weak power, so Dragon typing didn't help it

its physical bulk is not high enough and the most common set uppers can wear it down easily. it is utterly helpless against char x which is found on many teams.
it clearly does not counter thundurus as thundurus can just taunt and there are more useful counters to keldeo such as mega venusaur

the most common set uppers nowadays are char x, garchomp, bisharp, terrakion, pinsir

jellicent fails to stop any of these and can get 2hkoed if you try to switch in. especially if rocks are up

in addition, many volt turn teams use rotom w and it can just trick jellicent a scarf or burn it to reduce its bulk. jellicent really isnt buffed enough to be useable in my book

 

[Blizzardhail]

Not only does M-Venusaur take up your mega-slot, it's physical bulk is actually not bad as it's HP is decent. Also, Jellicent has Recover so wearing it down is not a option. Char X is also almost uncounterable and Jellicent can run Toxic to cripple it and shorten its longevity. Jellicent can burn more than half of the stat-upper you mentioned and Rotom-W is why you have teammates. Also, after Thundurus taunts, now what, Night Shade wears down Thundurus much faster than what Thundurus can do to Jellicent

 

[Jacks0n]

its physical bulk is not high enough and the most common set uppers can wear it down easily. it is utterly helpless against char x which is found on many teams.
it clearly does not counter thundurus as thundurus can just taunt and there are more useful counters to keldeo such as mega venusaur

the most common set uppers nowadays are char x, garchomp, bisharp, terrakion, pinsir

jellicent fails to stop any of these and can get 2hkoed if you try to switch in. especially if rocks are up

in addition, many volt turn teams use rotom w and it can just trick jellicent a scarf or burn it to reduce its bulk. jellicent really isnt buffed enough to be useable in my book

I think you are missing some things, if the introduction of jelliecent forced thundurus to run taunt, then jelliecent has affected the meta (the goal of this project). jelliecent outlcasses mega venu as a keldeo and thundurus check 5 > 1. Jelliecent is immune to BOTH of keldeo's stabs, this would force keldeo to run hp ghost if jelliecent got popular (again affecting the meta). It would not need to run any sp.defence because it already walls thundy and keldeo. It would completely stop set up sweeper with will-o-wisp aswell. Also jelliecent wouldnt stay in on a specs/scarf rotom because of the obvious trick. It would switch in to a volt switch to kill momentum and will-o-wisp the incoming switch. It may not be able to take on mega zard x, but thats the same with most pokes, that is why mega zard x is a top s rank threat.

I definately think volt absorb is the buff jelliecent needs to be useful in this meta, i think you just need to open you eyes to the possibilities (so inspirational) :)

 

[Jaroda]

Sceptile can actually abuse priority with a Focus Sash + Counter set. Sitting at a pretty 120 speed tier, priority Flying and Ice attacks would seem the way to go. But if you come in on something you threaten like Keldeo or Rotom-W you can SD while they send out Talonflame and then use Counter on their Brave Bird. This activates Unburden, or hell, even Overgrowth if you want to power your Grass STAB more, and odds are there isn't much left to outspeed you. Overgrow Leaf storm and Endeavor were fun to use too. Of course, this doesn't capitalize on Sceptile new Dragon typing at all and wasn't even close to consistent to truthfully consider. Believe me, I'd kill to have my favorite pokemon In use, but I don't think Dragon typing will cut it (I'd too submitted Grass/Dragon Serperior lol). Unfortunately Sceptile needs better power output, which was why I suggested Sheer Force (he has tons of Sheer Force boosted moves and works perfectly with Life Orb) or Solar Power (Specs set in the Sun would be great). I'm probably most Interested in Magic Guard Celebi. It allows it to benefit from better power output and bulkiness from no sandstorm, hazard and Life Orb damage. This is all great for a balanced pokemon like Celebi. Life Orb powers up U-Turn for harder hitting pivoting and powers up Giga Drain too to make up for no Leftovers. And you still have Aromatherapy to cure status so you won't miss Natural Cure. I think the lack of passive damage will go add long way in keeping Celebi around, as while her typing sucks overall, it provides numerous resistances and great mixed bulk that your team could kill for like Water, Electric, Ground and Fighting resists. This on top of her great support options and being damn fast for a bulky offensive pivot or support mon. I think shes being underestimated.

 

[alexwolf]

Sceptile is extremely fast after Unburden, but it is weak to priority Flying and Ice attacks. With 70 / 65 / 85 defenses, it doesn't fare well against priority period. Sceptile's offenses are not very good so it will struggle against bulky offense and stall teams.

Sorry alexwolf, with 85 base attack, a Swords Dance set isn't going to get Sceptile very far. You might as well use SD Talonflame instead since its STABs are more powerful and it gets priority. We all know how great Belly Drum + Unburden Slurpuff is; SD Sceptile is very similar.

I mentioned it more like a surprise gimmick that Sceptile can pull off and Noivern can't, as i agree with you that SD Sceptile wouldn't be a good set in general.

 

[Red Cat]

I think Jaroda made a good a good point in his post. All of the Pokemon suggested here have potential which could make them OU viable with the right buff, but most of the choices were not given the right buff. As Jaroda said, Sheer Force or Solar Power would have been much more useful buffs than giving it a secondary Dragon type since Sceptile's main problem is its lack of power. Celebi would rather be a Grass / Fairy type than have Magic Guard since its main problem is its poor defensive typing; Celebi already doesn't care that much about residual damage. Jellicent would rather be Water / Poison or Water / Fairy than get Volt Absorb. Tangrowth seems to me like the only one on the slate which gets an optimal buff because its biggest problem is that pure Grass type is bad defensively; getting a secondary Poison type removes some bad weaknesses and gives it some useful resistances plus an immunity to Toxic which is always great for a wall.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Just want to say that Sheer Force makes zero sense on Sceptile-- Every single Sheer Force user has ATK better than its SpATK. The point is that it's a Pokemon that SMASHES. Sheer Force should not be applied to any Poke that doesn't meet this requirement.

No Sheer Force mons with SATK > ATK

 

[escarlata]

Jellicent would rather be Water / Poison or Water / Fairy than get Volt Absorb. Tangrowth seems to me like the only one on the slate which gets an optimal buff because its biggest problem is that pure Grass type is bad defensively; getting a secondary Poison type removes some bad weaknesses and gives it some useful resistances plus an immunity to Toxic which is always great for a wall.

Volt absorb jellicent and a retyped Jellicent play different role altogether. While a retyped Jellicent will be better as a standalone wall, Volt absorb Jellicent is more suitable as a glue to hold a team together against many common threats . Volt absorb may not be the best general defensive buff that Jellicent can possibly ask for to make it a good general wall, but it is among the best candidate to give Volt absorb to when we want a electric immunity with resistances to common coverage moves.

Out of all possible pokemon to face competition from. 252/252+/0 amoonguss (who is currently in B Iirc), has roughly the same mixed bulk as 252/0/252+ Tangrowth. Tangrowth makes a better Av user, but amoonguss gives it competition with Clear Smog, Foul Play and Spore. With that being said, Tangrowth's main draw is with full physical bulk, but Poison does not really add any relevant resistance to offensive threats outside of azumarill and uturners since every relevant fighting type run coverage moves that just happened to get past Poison typing.

 

[rachet67]

I like Jellicent the best, as it can hard counter many electric types such as thundurus and manectric, and diversifies the otherwise small pool of mons that can do so. Tangrowth seems alright too, but its generally worse than Mega-Venusaur due to its terrible special defense (and having to hold an assault vest is more of a limitation than a benefit). While regenerator is nice and makes it different than Mega-Venusaur, it misses out on thick fat, which the main reason Mega-Venusaur is so awesome.

 

[Red Cat]

Out of all possible pokemon to face competition from. 252/252+/0 amoonguss (who is currently in B Iirc), has roughly the same mixed bulk as 252/0/252+ Tangrowth. Tangrowth makes a better Av user, but amoonguss gives it competition with Clear Smog, Foul Play and Spore. With that being said, Tangrowth's main draw is with full physical bulk, but Poison does not really add any relevant resistance to offensive threats outside of azumarill and uturners since every relevant fighting type run coverage moves that just happened to get past Poison typing.

The extra physical bulk matters a lot in a meta dominated by physical threats. Unlike Amoongus, Tangrowth has a usable attack and special attack and has the movepool to make use of its offenses.

Sorry alexwolf, I did not intend for this to become a discussion about Sheer Force Sceptile. I was just making the point that it could have had a better buff.

 

[Jacks0n]

Volt absorb jellicent and a retyped Jellicent play different role altogether. While a retyped Jellicent will be better as a standalone wall, Volt absorb Jellicent is more suitable as a glue to hold a team together against many common threats . Volt absorb may not be the best general defensive buff that Jellicent can possibly ask for to make it a good general wall, but it is among the best candidate to give Volt absorb to when we want a electric immunity with resistances to common coverage moves.

Out of all possible pokemon to face competition from. 252/252+/0 amoonguss (who is currently in B Iirc), has roughly the same mixed bulk as 252/0/252+ Tangrowth. Tangrowth makes a better Av user, but amoonguss gives it competition with Clear Smog, Foul Play and Spore. With that being said, Tangrowth's main draw is with full physical bulk, but Poison does not really add any relevant resistance to offensive threats outside of azumarill and uturners since every relevant fighting type run coverage moves that just happened to get past Poison typing.

actually tangrowth's new typing allow's it to check threats such as mega mawhile and terrakion aswell as other physical fairy/fighting types. And another thing tangrowth has over amoongus is decent offensive stats, base 100 attack and 110 sp.attack. This lets it actually hit physical threats such as mega zard x aswell as mega mawile with moves from its wide variety of move choices such as earthquake and focust blast.

 

[escarlata]

The extra physical bulk matters a lot in a meta dominated by physical threats. Unlike Amoongus, Tangrowth has a usable attack and special attack and has the movepool to make use of its offenses.

Foul Play more than makes up for the lack in offense stats. Uninvested non stab Eq and Focus Blast is weak compared to Foul Play against most offensive pokemon. Not to mention Amoongus has Spore and Clear Smog to prevent becoming set up bait unlike Tangrowth which is bait Pinsir when it is the pokemon to not be set up bait for.

What I am implying is that the set that faces least competition is not the 252/4/252+ set but rather the 252/252+/4 set because there is no grass type that replaces it's role as a raw physical bulk tank but it faces quite a lot of competition if it does not capitalize on its physical bulk and opts for a mix defensive set
set. However, the only physical offensive threats that's added to the list of things it checks is limited to azumarill. As for everything else, it either already checked them without a secondary Poison typing or is still unable to check even with a poison typing.

 

[Jacks0n]

Foul Play more than makes up for the lack in offense stats. Uninvested non stab Eq and Focus Blast is weak compared to Foul Play against most offensive pokemon. Not to mention Amoongus has Spore and Clear Smog to prevent becoming set up bait unlike Tangrowth which is bait Pinsir when it is the pokemon to not be set up bait for.

What I am implying is that the set that faces least competition is not the 252/4/252+ set but rather the 252/252+/4 set because there is no grass type that replaces it's role as a raw physical bulk tank but it faces quite a lot of competition if it does not capitalize on its physical bulk and opts for a mix defensive set
set. However, the only physical offensive threats that's added to the list of things it checks is limited to azumarill. As for everything else, it either already checked them without a secondary Poison typing or is still unable to check even with a poison typing.

u are forgetting mega mawhile, terrakion and keldeo? and amoongus's foul play isnt stab.

 

[escarlata]

u are forgetting mega mawhile, terrakion and keldeo?

Terrakion still has Stone Edge and is walled even without a secondary typing by a pure physical defensive set; Mawile still has Fire Fang which allows it to win unless Tangrowth runs at least 132 speed Even; Icy Wind or HP flying is pretty standard for Keldeo and choiced sets usually spam it's water stab rather than secret sword. So it doesn't exactly let it wall them any better with a poison typing and only gives more switch in opportunity, which it still doesn't have much trouble doing so without a poison type given such good physical bulk.

 

[Jacks0n]

Terrakion still has Stone Edge and is walled even without a secondary typing by a pure physical defensive set; Mawile still has Fire Fang which allows it to win unless Tangrowth runs at least 132 speed Even; Icy Wind or HP flying is pretty standard for Keldeo and choiced sets usually spam it's water stab rather than secret sword. So it doesn't exactly let it wall them any better with a poison typing and only gives more switch in opportunity, which it still doesn't have much trouble doing so without a poison type given such good physical bulk.

i guess, but poison typing still lets it fare better against those pokes

 

[Red Cat]

Foul Play more than makes up for the lack in offense stats. Uninvested non stab Eq and Focus Blast is weak compared to Foul Play against most offensive pokemon. Not to mention Amoongus has Spore and Clear Smog to prevent becoming set up bait unlike Tangrowth which is bait Pinsir when it is the pokemon to not be set up bait for.

What I am implying is that the set that faces least competition is not the 252/4/252+ set but rather the 252/252+/4 set because there is no grass type that replaces it's role as a raw physical bulk tank but it faces quite a lot of competition if it does not capitalize on its physical bulk and opts for a mix defensive set
set. However, the only physical offensive threats that's added to the list of things it checks is limited to azumarill. As for everything else, it either already checked them without a secondary Poison typing or is still unable to check even with a poison typing.

Amoongus can only 3HKO Mega Pinsir with Foul Play while Mega Pinsir can OHKO it with Return. Max defense Tangrowth can survive an unboosted Return and do 75% to 90% with Ancient Power if you want to go that route (obviously neither should really be used as a check to Mega Pinsir).

Tangrowth gets more out of its Poison typing than just countering Azumarill (which is pretty big in itself). It doesn't have to worry about being 2HKO'ed by CB Terrakion and forces it to use the less reliable Stone Edge. It also gains the ability to counter some variants of Clefable and Sylveon with its Fairy resist and STAB Sludge Bomb. Taking only neutral damage from U-turn is a big deal for a good pivot like Tangrowth. As a wall, Tangrowth really appreciates the immunity to Toxic.

 

[escarlata]

Amoongus can only 3HKO Mega Pinsir with Foul Play while Mega Pinsir can OHKO it with Return. Max defense Tangrowth can survive an unboosted Return and do 75% to 90% with Ancient Power if you want to go that route (obviously neither should really be used as a check to Mega Pinsir).

Tangrowth gets more out of its Poison typing than just countering Azumarill (which is pretty big in itself). It doesn't have to worry about being 2HKO'ed by CB Terrakion and forces it to use the less reliable Stone Edge. It also gains the ability to counter some variants of Clefable and Sylveon with its Fairy resist and STAB Sludge Bomb. Taking only neutral damage from U-turn is a big deal for a good pivot like Tangrowth. As a wall, Tangrowth really appreciates the immunity to Toxic.

Or alternatively pinsir gets a free SD in its base form, and if it attempts the same feat against amoonguss it will get spores and foul played, so it is almost certainly forced to attack, making it easier to play around. Terrakion has 0% chance to 2HKO with leftovers factored in which full physical defensive tangrowth uses. Having said that, CC was never the most reliable attack against Tangrowth in the first place given that Tangrowth can manage an OHKO with Giga Drain after the drop in bulk. Toxic damage barely matters because Tangrowth is not supposed to stay in for long anyway. The more it stays in over prolonged periods of time, the less it makes use of Regenerator, which leads to a question of Tangrowth's utility over Venusaur and Ferrothorn. Said 2 competitiors also give stiff competition to a 252/0/252+ AV set since one of it's main draw over Ferrothorn is Sleep Powder which it is giving up thanks to AV.

After accounting that, we are left with not much it has over its fellow competitors as a grass type. It's not that Tangrowth isn't good, but the fact that every other grass type in the metagame is equally good, if not better, and it doesn't have anything in particular to stand out from them.

 

[Red Cat]

Terrakion has an 84.2% chance to 2HKO Tangrowth (without Poison type) after SR. Amoongus might put Pinsir to sleep with Spore, or the opponent may just decide to mega evolve and murder Amoongus and you just lost a key member of your team. Any decent stall team will have Skarmory or Hippowdon to deal with Mega Pinsir anyway. Tangrowth deals with non-flying physical threats that Amoongus cannot.

Tangrowth has plenty over its fellow Grass types. It has more physical bulk and power than Amoongus, and it has Regenerator over Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur. It is not weak to fighting types like Ferrothorn, and it does not take up your mega slot like Venusaur.

 

[escarlata]

Terrakion has an 84.2% chance to 2HKO Tangrowth (without Poison type) after SR. Amoongus might put Pinsir to sleep with Spore, or the opponent may just decide to mega evolve and murder Amoongus and you just lost a key member of your team. Any decent stall team will have Skarmory or Hippowdon to deal with Mega Pinsir anyway. Tangrowth deals with non-flying physical threats that Amoongus cannot.

Tangrowth has plenty over its fellow Grass types. It has more physical bulk and power than Amoongus, and it has Regenerator over Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur. It is not weak to fighting types like Ferrothorn, and it does not take up your mega slot like Venusaur.

If Pinsir comes in on Amoonguss it is almost certainly not going to set up so the prediction is easier for you. Even if you stay and and choose to spore it, you are losing only 1 member of the team and your team only needs go handle a +0 pinsir. If it comes in on Tangrowth however, it can potentially mean a sweep if there isn't anything that can handle a +2 Pinsir. As a pivot, tangrowth has low staying power, which makes it fit more in bulky offense than stall in the first place.

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 180-213 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252/252+/4 because 252/4/252+ has similar bulk to 252/252+/4 Amoonguss which means you are giving up the massive physical bulk which you speak of.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't find a defensive theorymon appealing if there are many competitors for the same job.

 

[Jacks0n]

Or alternatively pinsir gets a free SD in its base form, and if it attempts the same feat against amoonguss it will get spores and foul played, so it is almost certainly forced to attack, making it easier to play around. Terrakion has 0% chance to 2HKO with leftovers factored in which full physical defensive tangrowth uses. Having said that, CC was never the most reliable attack against Tangrowth in the first place given that Tangrowth can manage an OHKO with Giga Drain after the drop in bulk. Toxic damage barely matters because Tangrowth is not supposed to stay in for long anyway. The more it stays in over prolonged periods of time, the less it makes use of Regenerator, which leads to a question of Tangrowth's utility over Venusaur and Ferrothorn. Said 2 competitiors also give stiff competition to a 252/0/252+ AV set since one of it's main draw over Ferrothorn is Sleep Powder which it is giving up thanks to AV.

After accounting that, we are left with not much it has over its fellow competitors as a grass type. It's not that Tangrowth isn't good, but the fact that every other grass type in the metagame is equally good, if not better, and it doesn't have anything in particular to stand out from them.

First of all tangrowth is quite different to ferrothorn, ferrothorn dies to a powerful fighting type and can not hit hard withought gyro ball. Tangrowth is more of a pivot, with decent offensive stats, coming in on a poke like azumarill, giga draining then switching out when a threat comes in, returning to full health with regen. Ferrothorn has no recovery outside of leech seed which wastes a turn laying it, aswell as the fact that the pokemon can easily be switched out. Tangrowth checks different pokemon to ferro, ferro dies to keldeo and terrak. Ferro can also not stand up to heatran, while tangrowth can earthquake it.

Although mega venu is arguably better with better mixed bulk and thick fat aswell as immidiate recovery in synthesis and a good special attack, mega venu takes up a mega spot. Stall and semi-stall teams are quite often running will-o-wisp roost mega zard x, and this means mega venu can not be ran. If a mega venasaur is run mega zard x bulky will-o-wisp roost can not be run. So, although mega venu is arguably better tangrowth, tangrowth would not take up a mega and function almost as good. A great pivot with better physical bulk just lacking special bulk, which can be patched up with an assault vest.

Also tangrowth has quite a lot better mixed bulk with sp.defencive investment and assault vest than amoongus. Foul play is not stab on amoongus and the only reason you would run amoongus over tangrowth is for spore. Tangrowth can also hit pokemon such as heatran and mega mawhile with eq and hit terrak and azum with a much more powerful giga drain's than amoongus.

 

[some hero]

Assault Vest is a terrible item, giving it to a Grass type is a horrible idea. Grass' best niche is definitely its status moves and you're giving that up for a set with terrible STAB types and pathetically weak overall offensive stats. Assault Vest is a gimmick and a joke, you'd need an attack boosting ability, priority, reliable recovery and great STABs to make Assault Vest not be completely outclassed by Leftovers. Guess what? After your AV gets Knocked Off you're stuck with a weak attacker that can't do anything in a battle except be set up bait. Losing Leftovers isn't a big deal because you still have status moves to remain useful.

 

[Jacks0n]

Assault Vest is a terrible item, giving it to a Grass type is a horrible idea. Grass' best niche is definitely its status moves and you're giving that up for a set with terrible STAB types and pathetically weak overall offensive stats. Assault Vest is a gimmick and a joke, you'd need an attack boosting ability, priority, reliable recovery and great STABs to make Assault Vest not be completely outclassed by Leftovers. Guess what? After your AV gets Knocked Off you're stuck with a weak attacker that can't do anything in a battle except be set up bait. Losing Leftovers isn't a big deal because you still have status moves to remain useful.

tangrowth wouldnt be like ferro and other ou grass types. Its aim is to come in soak hits, attack with pretty decent offensive stats then to switch out and heal the damage with regenerator. It is a defencive pivot. If u want status's then use amoong, but this thing would be used as a pivot IMO.

 

[Siiilver]

Ok I'm a bit new to this, but I'll go ahead and post my suggestions here (or are you supposed to PM someone?)

Snorlax- My suggestion is adding slack off to its moveset. Why? Because clearly, the dex entries describe its laziness, and slack off clearly fits the flavor, imo. Snorlax is a really bulky pokemon, and what a shame it doesn't get reliable healing. If it got reliable healing, it would probably push itself up to OU.

Metagross- I see that bulletproof is added as one of its abilities, I was thinking about the same, lol. But I also felt that it should have analytic. Its made of 4 freakin' computers. It should be MADE for stuff like analysis.

Goodra- Lemme show you the dex entry for pokemon Y-

It attacks with retractable horns. It throws a punch that's the equivalent of the force of a hundred pro boxers.

Yep, there it is. As such, I feel it should be able to learn a variety of punch moves. These include the elemental punches, as well as Drain punch, and several other punch moves (thought not really mach punch/bullet though, it doesn't look like something which could throw that quick a punch).

And since it has horns with which it can attack with, it should be able to learn several horn-based moves as well. These would include Horn attack and horn leech or something. I guess that would pretty much be it though..

Another thought about Goodra-
As you know, its made of jelly. Just like reuniclus. My idea was, that it should either have one of its abilities replaced with regenerator, or it should be able to learn recover.

 

[Valmanway]

Ok I'm a bit new to this, but I'll go ahead and post my suggestions here (or are you supposed to PM someone?)

Snorlax- My suggestion is adding slack off to its moveset. Why? Because clearly, the dex entries describe its laziness, and slack off clearly fits the flavor, imo. Snorlax is a really bulky pokemon, and what a shame it doesn't get reliable healing. If it got reliable healing, it would probably push itself up to OU.

Metagross- I see that bulletproof is added as one of its abilities, I was thinking about the same, lol. But I also felt that it should have analytic. Its made of 4 freakin' computers. It should be MADE for stuff like analysis.

Goodra- Lemme show you the dex entry for pokemon Y-



Yep, there it is. As such, I feel it should be able to learn a variety of punch moves. These include the elemental punches, as well as Drain punch, and several other punch moves (thought not really mach punch/bullet though, it doesn't look like something which could throw that quick a punch).

And since it has horns with which it can attack with, it should be able to learn several horn-based moves as well. These would include Horn attack and horn leech or something. I guess that would pretty much be it though..

Another thought about Goodra-
As you know, its made of jelly. Just like reuniclus. My idea was, that it should either have one of its abilities replaced with regenerator, or it should be able to learn recover.

It's great to see someone interested in this, but if you want to make suggestions, you have to post them on alexwolf's profile page.

 

[Siiilver]

It's great to see someone interested in this, but if you want to make suggestions, you have to post them on alexwolf's profile page.

Oh his profile page, okay. I PMed him, actually.

Anyways, my bad x_x sorry