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The Thrashing Sun

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by mikeweltevrede, Oct 7, 2012.

  1. mikeweltevrede

    mikeweltevrede

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2011
    Messages:
    20
    Hello Smogon!

    So one day I got a message from a friend, he sent me the importable for his Ubers team which featured these pokes: Groudon, Ho-Oh, Shaymin-S, Latios, Giratina-A and Forretress.

    Immediately, the huge Ice-Type weakness struck me. So I decided to try and edit this team a bit. I mostly looked at Shaymin-S and Giratina. I felt like the other pokes were quite in place. Giratina functioned great as a spinblocker, since he has got every single entry hazard on his team. However, I found Giratina to lack power, even though it helped with the phazing. I myself had faced enough problems with another Spinblocker which gave me the idea to throw it on the team.

    I'll just go through it in steps to be a little clearer:

    1) Groudon - Latios - Ho-Oh - Forretress - Giratina - Shaymin-S
    *1) Although Forretress is even more dead than before when hit by a Fire-Type attack in the sun, it is a great Spinner and hazard setter. Moreover, a great Ferrothorn counter.
    I wanted to replace Giratina by another great Spinblocker in Ubers: Arceus-Ghost! I was doubting between a Support set and the CM set. Eventually I chose to run the CM one to hit stuff harder, mostly the Pink Blobs, Chansey and Blissey.

    2) Groudon - Latios - Ho-Oh - Forretress - Arceus-Ghost - Shaymin-S
    *2) So we still got a great Ice weakness, but I wasn't looking for a full resist. As Skymin was Scarfed, another Scarfer would seem obvious and helpful. I decided to try out Scarf Dialga. It worked great on my own team so why wouldn't I try running it on this team? I only have one dilemma for a moveslot: Fire Blast or TBolt and Aura Sphere or TBolt. Fire Blast abuses the sun, while Aura Sphere hits TTar, to which I am kind of weak if Groudon is gone. TBolt is used to hit Kyogre. Why not run Thunder? Simple; I don't want to miss outside of Rain, if the opponent isn't using it.

    3) Groudon - Latios - Ho-Oh - Forretress - Arceus-Ghost - Dialga
    *3) In my experience, Latias is better than Latios in Ubers since she has greater Bulk, added to that, the Soul Dew brings her to a standard +1 in SAtk and SDef! I decided to let this set be, only changing the o in an a.

    4) Groudon - Latias - Ho-Oh - Forretress - Arceus-Ghost - Dialga
    *4) This is basically the team! I still think that I would need something a little more Physically Bulky, apart from Groudon

    So for the actual movesets:

    Groudon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Stone Edge
    - Dragon Tail

    This is the Groudon set I like the most. Standard physically defensive with Dragon Tail and Stealth Rock. Alongside Forretress, Dragon Tail helps well with abusing the entry hazards. Moreover, T-Wave is a great move in ubers, since there are so many fast pokes in there that threaten my team.

    Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 220 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)

    - Spikes
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Pain Split

    Forretress is a great Ferrothorn counter, which is one thing that annoys me more than a burnt pizza. Moreover, it lays Spikes and Toxic Spikes on the field, the best entry hazards in Ubers in my opinion. Lastly, it has Rapid Spin to spin the Rocks away for Ho-Oh, Toxic Spikes for Groudon and Ghost-Arceus and Spikes for basically everything but Ho-Oh and Latias.

    Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Recover
    - Grass Knot
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Draco Meteor

    I've faced offensive Latias so much while testing my own team that I've seen it wreak havoc while taking (special) hits extremely well. This is basically the one and only reason I changed the o into an a.
    For the moves, the Draco Meteor is to hit anything really hard. The Thunderbolt is to hit Kyogre, since it poses quite the threat to my team. I needed something to hit it and this seemed by best bet, along with Dialga, but more about that later on. Dragon Pulse is to hit consistently with STAB and no SAtk drops while HP Fire becomes Pseudo-STAB in the sun. Moving on!

    Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 188 Def / 72 Spe
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Substitute

    - Sacred Fire
    - Roost
    - Brave Bird

    This Ho-Oh was here to stay since this was, along with Groudon, a poke my friend really wanted to use in this set format. Let me explain the (fairly obvious) moves though. First off, we have the double stab, providing quite good coverage already. Still, Rock types wall it, so there is EQ for that. Lastly, there is Roost/Recover. I am still doubting. Roost rids it of its 4x Rock type weakness, but leaves it vulnerable to Ground type moves. Recover leaves it weak to Rocky moves but leaves it immune to Ground Type moves. Any suggestions?

    Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)

    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Judgment
    - Focus Blast

    I needed a reliable Spinblocker and have always had a thing for Arceus-Ghost. I also like the CM Arceuses a lot, although they are sometimes quite unreliable since they are walled by specially defensive guys when there are no CMs set up. This is a problem, but I have other guys that can deal with those before Arceus can seize the day.
    Judgment and Focus Blast are to hit neutrally, Judgment for STAB and Focus Blast mostly to hit the Pink Blobs.

    Edit: CM to W-o-W for crippling offensive mon's, especially chomp and groudon

    Genesect @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 Atk /
    4 SAtk / 252 Spe
    Hasty Nature (+Spe, -Def)
    - Ice Beam
    - U-Turn
    - Iron Head
    - Explosion


    This is the poke I have the most doubts about. Mostly because I really need something to hit Kyogre, here in the form of TBolt. As I've explained before, I don't know what to drop: the Sun Boosted Fire Blast or the TTar/Darkrai hitting Aura Sphere. I hope to receive some tips on this fron you guys.
    Again, Draco to hit hard. Dragon Pulse is to hit consistently, with STAB and no SAtk drops.

    Edit: to Genesect because:


    So please leave your comments and such down, I would greatly appreciate it!

    Excuse me for the boring layout, but I don't have access to my PC at the moment. I am sending this in from my iPod, so I am not able to add pictures.

    Well, that's it for me! Thank you guys in advance! :]

    Peace!

    Edit: edits are in Bold
  2. Chirac

    Chirac

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2010
    Messages:
    155
    Hi.
    It seems to me that you have a significant weakness to Groudon and Garchomp (SD versions especially), due to the lack of W-o-W on Arceus, the free set-up on Forretress, Latias after a DM and Dialga locked on DM/FB.
    You cannot switch in those two Ground-types safely, which is not very nice knowing their strike force. In fact, the only thing that can really do against them is switching on your own Groudon, and D-Tail them after taking a lot of damages. But Groudon has no recovery move, so it will feint too quickly.
    Maybe you took Dialga scarfed to RK them, especially Garchomp, but with their decent bulk, even in specialdef, and thanks to the Haban Berry for Chomp, it can't do the job very well...

    I also think that you can't do anything against Kyogre; Latias is your unique switch in to Kyogre (Specs and Mind on top), if you notice that SpecsOgre does 89-105% on Dialga with Water Spout full health lol, and your poor Latias without Recover won't take many hits from it.

    So if I try to help you, I suggest you to get Recover on Latias over Draco Meteor or Dragon Pulse firstly, and you can run Thunder over Thunderbolt, which is usefull only against rain teams.
    Secondly, for this problem with Chomp/Groudon, maybe you could run a defensive set of Ghost-Ceus, with Will-O-Wisp over Calm Mind. Ok you lose your set-upper, but it seems legit to me to check those 'mons.

    Dialga is the frail point of the team, maybe an other scarfed-one will do a better job? But I don't see which one. And it can works much with the changing I gave you, which are done to have better pivots.

    Hope it was helpful.
  3. mikeweltevrede

    mikeweltevrede

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2011
    Messages:
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    Okay, I definitely see the problem now, since the Tina had w-o-w I dorgot about it, thanks for reminding!

    I shall try this. I myself think that TBolt/Thunder is indeed only good against rain teams, so choosing thunder can be a good option; I shall try it, as well as recover over draco.
    As said before, chomp and groudon are a threat so I shall also take your advice on this one! I shall try it out asap.

    Okay, well it helped me quite a bit, although more on rain teams. I thought about Reshiram or Kyurem-R, but that leaves me at another Rock weakness added... I shall put some thought into this.

    Thank you!
  4. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa

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    Aug 31, 2012
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    Actually, Thunder only has a whopping 50% accuracy in the sun. So Thunderbolt would be a weaker but wiser choice.
  5. Chirac

    Chirac

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    Not for Tias. Latias is the first option against Kyogre and its rain partners (such as Manaphy). So Thunder is a very reliable option on it.

    On the other hand, Thunder on Dialga isn't a good choice imo. Keep DM-FB-Aurasphere-DragonPulse, that's the better choice. You now have Ghost-Ceus against Groudon and Garchomp. (be careful about Lum-Groudon)
  6. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
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    T-Wave Support Groudon / Pain Split Tspikes Forretress / 3 Attacks Jolly LO Ho-Oh / Choice Scarf Dialga / Support Ghost Arceus / 3 Attacks Latias

    This team is weak to, in order of importance, -

    Ho-Oh

    Blaziken

    Gliscor

    Mewtwo

    Darkrai - simply by the virtue of having nothing to the absorb the sleep and Ho-Oh not being bulky enough to take on Life Orb Darkrai at + 2.

    While not weak to much on paper your team suffers from relying on a fragile Ho-Oh to check a lot of things, compounded by reliance on Rapid Spin (not saying that Magic Bounce is necessarily better in all situations, but it pairs better with offensive Ho-Oh). A lot of your movesets are also suboptimal and non-complementary to the rest of your team.

    Groudon would be much better off with Fire Punch over Thunder Wave, limiting Stealth Rock users, this still leaves a huge weakness to Ho-Oh -- Stone Edge and speed investment is a viable alternative, but -- I suggest a Physically Defensive Ho-Oh over your current one, it checks non-LO and CB versions of opposing Ho-Oh excellently, in addition to potentially burning ExtremeKiller, which can severely weaken Groudon and get past Ghost Arceus if it is running Shadow Force. Physically Defensive Ho-Oh also checks Blaziken without Stone Edge (no one runs that).

    Groudon
    Show Hide

    move 1: Earthquake
    move 2: Fire Punch
    move 3: Dragon Tail
    move 4: Stealth Rock
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Drought
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def


    Ho-Oh
    Show Hide

    move 1: Sacred Fire
    move 2: Brave Bird
    move 3: Roost
    move 4: Substitute
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Regenerator
    nature: Impish
    evs: 248 HP / 188 Def / 72 Spe


    Extra speed is creep, but it's good to have a large amount to through up pre-cautionary Substitutes and stall out Groudon of Stone Edge. If you outspeed Gliscor you can also set up a Substitute on its face. You can adjust it as you like.

    Latias' set is suboptimal, why have Thunder, a largely useless move outside of rain, when running a sun team? Grass Knot still hits Kyogre, and gets a nice SE hit on Groudon, Rock / Water / Ground Arceus, Tyranitar, etc. Draco Meteor also tends to be better on three attacks Latias rather than Dragon Pulse, as it becomes more of a hit-and-run pivot / attacker rather than a CM sweeper. Also with EVs like that Latias is easily 2HKOed by Choice Scarf Ice Beam from Kyogre, undesirable, to say the least.

    Latias
    Show Hide

    move 1: Hidden Power Fire
    move 2: Grass Knot
    move 3: Draco Meteor
    move 4: Roost
    item: Soul Dew
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Timid
    evs: 168 HP / 144 SpA / 196 Spe


    These EVs are for something I forget, but 144 SpA is a benchmark for something importance, 196 Spe outspeeds Garchomp, taking into account the IV drop for HP Fire, and the rest goes in bulk.

    Arceus Ghost with no Speed investment means trouble sometimes, at least aim to outspeed Latias, so you can Judgment it before it CMs. Additional speed also means faster Recovers, also the defensive load on Arceus is lessened due to the addition of Ho-Oh.

    Arceus Ghost
    Show Hide

    move 1: Judgment
    move 2: Will-O-Wisp
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Recover
    item: Spooky Plate
    ability: Multitype
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe


    With Forretress's current spread it stands a chance to be 2HKOed by +1 Rayquaza's Outrage and Kyurem-B's Choice Band Outrage (after SR), by using an improved spread you can absorb two boosted Outrage's and Pain Split.

    Forretress
    Show Hide

    move 1: Spikes
    move 2: Toxic Spikes
    move 3: Rapid Spin
    move 4: Pain Split
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Sturdy
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 220 SpD


    Lastly, I propose a Choice Scarf Genesect rather than a Dialga, it maintains Steel-typing and outspeeds Rayquaza, while threatening Latias (which Ho-Oh struggles with in rain if it has Thunder or Surf), Darkrai, and Mewtwo (Ghost Arceus loses if it CMs on the switch, Phys.Def Ho-Oh is a shaky check).

    Genesect
    Show Hide

    move 1: U-Turn
    move 2: Iron Head
    move 3: Explosion
    move 4: Ice Beam
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Download
    nature: Hasty
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe


    Physical spread for enough U-Turn damage on the targets it needs to hit.

    Good luck.
  7. mikeweltevrede

    mikeweltevrede

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    Thanks a lot! This is a truly wonderful response and helps me a lot. However, I don't like running Explosion on Genesect, I might consider T-Bolt or such once again, just because Rain is so prominent. But thanks anyways, I shall test most of the changes out since it all made sense!
  8. gookie

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    If you don't want to use Explosion then use Flamethrower.
  9. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    @physically defensive Ho-Oh

    You want to be careful here. Phys def Ho-Oh doesn't really check opposing Ho-Oh because they're doing about the same amount of damage to each other. Since you're going to be switching in, your Ho-Oh would get the short end of the stick. Phys. Def Ho-Oh is a good buffer, but you're going to need another check to actually destroy it. I personally recommend Stone Edge > Fire Punch on Groudon for this.

    Definitely consider Explosion on Genesect. +1 Explosion is strong enough to annihilate 4/0 Arceus after SR damage, and can also act as a backup move for Ho-Oh. Thunderbolt is useless because it's not going to be doing any significant damage to pretty much anything (except Gyarados -__-) and if you really need to hit Skarmory, Flamethrower is the superior option. Bug Buzz is also a better option than TBolt because you can OHKO Darkrai/Mewtwo if you get the SAtk boost.
  10. gookie

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    Another option is to use Whirlwind over Substitute. But, as I covered in my post, I find limiting Ferrothorn and Forretress more useful than having to creep on Groudon and rely on Stone Edge. It is, of course, up to you, however.

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