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The Ubers Role Comparison Project

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by Theorymon, Jun 7, 2013.

  1. Theorymon

    is a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 14, 2009
    The Ubers Role Comparison Project

    Have you ever pinpointed a Pokémon on one of your teams, where you find it's role to be extremely useful for your team, but wonder "man, if only there was a similar Pokémon that had more manageable flaws for my team"? If so, this is the thread for you! Believe it or not, there tend to be a lot more Pokémon that can achieve a certain role than you think, but often times, these Pokémon are obscure, or they may be common Pokémon using an unusual set, so the people who are looking for such a "role replacement" may end up never finding it!

    This thread aims to fix that problem! The main goal of this thread is to highlight certain under rated Pokémon sets, by comparing them to more common Pokémon who fulfill similar roles, both the advantages and the disadvantages! This way, people who feel like their team could use with some changes can get some tips from this thread, or if they are just making a team with certain roles in mind, they can be exposed to some Pokémon that deserve more usage! Also, don't worry if you can't think of any good examples, commenting on examples already mentioned to incite discussion is fine too!

    Here are two examples to get you guys started. Feel free to use the same format, since it gets right to the point, but if you feel the need to deviate a bit, that's fine too!

    Palkia as a Choice Specs user compared to: Kyogre

    Palkia @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Hydro Pump / Surf
    - Draco Meteor / Spacial Rend
    - Thunder
    - Fire Blast

    Palkia's Advantages

    1. One of the great things about using Palkia as a Choice Specs user, is that it frees you to use a different Kyogre set! This is especially useful if you want to use a Kyogre set that lasts longer (such as a specially defensive set, or a Twaver with Leftovers), yet still want insanely powerful Water attacks coming from base 150 SpA.

    2. Palkia has the same exact Special Attack stat as Kyogre, but its also got a nice 100 base Speed, letting it outspeed things Kyogre doesnt like, such as Rayquaza, White Kyurem, Zekrom, and Genesect.

    3. That Dragon STAB is nice for screwing with Dragons in general, but one of the best parts about it is that it makes Latias and opposing Palkia much riskier switch-ins than they would be for Specs Kyogre. Offensive pviot Latias is actually OHKOed by Spacial Rend after Stealth Rock damage, while Draco Meteor OHKOs even max HP Latias! Also, if you opt for Draco Meteor, you can do more damage to Dialga than Choice Specs Kyogre can with a max HP Water Spout. While Spacial Rend won't out damage Water Spout, it'll still do more than Kyogre's Hydro Pump.

    4. It may not seem like much, but Fire Blast is actually very useful here, as it allows you to do 82-97% to Ferrothorn switch-ins: which means you don't need to be at full health to consistently 2HKO Ferrothorn like Specsogre needs to be (max HP Water Spout does 58-69% fyi).

    5. Finally, while Palkia doesn't really have a great array of resistances, that 4x resistance to Water type moves can be a lifesaver vs other Kyogre, since your own Kyogre will still take a lot from those!

    Palkia's Disadvantages

    1. While Specs Palkia can get away without Kyogre support, if you are using this set because you want an insanely strong rain abuser, you WILL need Kyogre. Meanwhile, Kyogre can abuse rain without any kind of support, only needing support to make the most out of Water Spout

    2. Water Spout is a fairly major loss. While Specs Kyogre needs some support to get the most out of it, when it has the right conditions, it can actually 2HKO Chansey and Blissey, something Specs Palkia can never do. A healthy Water Spout can also 2HKO Ferrothorn and Dialga, something Palkia will have to resort to other moves to do.

    3. Specs Kyogre can change the weather to screw with the opponents team and support your own, while Specs Palkia doesn't offer any kind of direct team support like that.

    4. Kyogre has a lot more special bulk than Palkia, and Kyogre has an easier time running max HP sets than Palkia, so Kyogre can take on certain special threats such as Ghost Arceus more easily.

    Skarmory as a bulky Spiker compared to: Ferrothorn and Forretress
    Skarmory @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Bold / Calm Nature
    - Spikes
    - Roost
    - Whirlwind
    - Toxic / Taunt

    Skarmory's Advantages

    1. Roost is a serious selling point over the other two bulky Steel-type Spikers of Ubers, as Skarmory is the only one of them to have a reliable recovery move. This tends to mean that a well played Skarmory can afford more mistakes than Ferrothorn or Forretress. This can also let Skarmory screw with certain choiced Pokémon longer than Ferrothorn and Forretress can.

    2. Whirlwind is an amazing selling point as well. This can let Skarmory become a fairly nice Normal Arceus check, and phazing in general goes great with abusing the Spikes SKarmory sets up itself! If you REALLY hate Normal Arceus, you can also use Toxic, so now it's lifespan is made even shorter!

    3. That Flying typing can come in real handy, allowing Skarmory to screw up Groudon that lack fire moves, deal with Garchomp better than the others can, screw up Landorus-T, and of course, let it avoid any Spikes damage.

    4. If you can fit it in, Taunt can be really useful, making sure that Ferrothorn can never set up hazards vs Skarmory, and if you speed creep, you can screw with Giratina who may want to Will-O-Wisp stuff later!

    5. While I wouldn't call Skarmory isn't very bulky specially, being only 2x weak to Fire can be really nice in the rain, allowing Skarmory to take weaker stuff like support Dialga Flamethrowers fairly well in the rain when compared to Ferrothorn and Forretress.

    Skarmory's Disadvantages

    1. When compared to Ferrothorn, Skarmory has much more trouble with most special threats. Ferrothorn has pretty good special bulk, and amazing resistances to Water and Electric. Meanwhile, Skarmory gets mauled by Water attacks, and only takes special hits a bit better than Forretress. Also, unlike Forretress, Skarmory has to deal with a neutrality to Ice and a weakness to Electric attacks.

    2. Skarmory's offensive options are certainly the worst of the 3, only having the rather weak Brave Bird with base 80 Attack to work with. Meanwhile, Ferrothorn has Power Whip to hurt Kyogre and Groudon nicely, Forretress can keep up momentum with Volt Switch (even if its really weak), and both Ferrothorn and Forretress have Gyro Ball to do reasonable amounts of damage to a lot of the faster Uber threats.

    3. Also, Since Skarmory's offensive options aren't good, its much bigger taunt bait than Ferrothorn and Forretress are.

    4. Skarmory's support options are pretty great, but it does miss out on some nice stuff. Forretress has a greater mastery of hazards control with Rapid Spin and Toxic Spikes, while Ferrothorn's Thunder Wave can help support offensive teams more.
  2. trickroom

    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 13, 2009
    Scizor as a U-turn user compared to Genesect

    Scizor @ Choice Band
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - U-turn
    - Bullet Punch
    - Pursuit
    - Superpower

    Scizor's Advantages

    1. Scizor has a powerful revenge killing move through Bullet Punch, stronger than Rayquaza's Extremespeed, and it has nothing immune to it. Bullet Punch can cleanly 2HKO things like Mewtwo, Darkrai, Latias, Shaymin-S and OHKOes offensive threats weak to it such as Terrakion. Genesect has a fast Iron Head but Bullet Punch will go first even against very fast threats such as Scarf Shaymin-S or a Terrakion at +2 Speed.

    2. Scizor is a bit bulkier physically but isn't really significant anyway since it shares the same typing with Genesect who is bulkier specially. Scizor can invest more in HP to tank hits better but Genesect really needs all the Speed it can get.

    3. Base 130 Attack is slightly better than Genesect's and Scizor has to use a Choice Band set anyway instead of Scarf because it will be too slow for it.

    4. Scizor can Pursuit things likely to flee such as some Latias, Mewtwo and Shaymin-S stuck on Seed Flare. However, Scizor isn't bulky at all and is easily KOed by repeated hits, Technician does some what boosts Pursuit's power even if the opponent stays in.

    5. Access to Superpower lets Scizor deal heavy damage to Dialga switch ins and lets it check some Swords Dance Arceus sets. +2 Brick Break doesn't come close to OHKOing while Scizor can KO back but prior damage is required.

    Scizor's Disadvantages

    1. It's piss slow lol, and slow U-turns are good to scout but Scizor has shit bulk by Ubers standards however that typing does help to tank resisted hits.

    2. Scizor's movepool isn't as wide as Genesect and you can not OHKO Dragon types easily with Ice Beam, no Explosion to deal insane damage, and you can't even hax things with Iron Head because you are too slow.

    3. Unlike Scizor, Genesect doesn't need to take a hit to revenge kill things and is a lot more reliable, such as DD Rayquaza, Mewtwo, Darkrai and many others.

    4. Scizor can't go mixed, it has to hit from the physical side, while Genesect can be a lot more versatile although Scarf is by far the most common, they can be specially based as well.
  3. Theorymon

    is a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 14, 2009
    I'll do a more apt comparison later, but personally I think things start looking more favorable for Scizor when you give it non choiced sets. Roost, Superpower, AND Bullet Punch really differentiate it from Genesect in my opinion! Also, Roost makes the bulk more significant, especially since Genesect needs the speed a lot more than Scizor does.
  4. superstar


    Jul 25, 2011
    Latios as a special attacker compared to Mewtwo

    Both Latios and Mewtwo are used primarily as all-out Special Attackers.

    Latios @Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP/ 252 SpAtt/ 252 Spe
    Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Att)
    -Draco Meteor
    -Psyshock / Dragon Pulse
    -Thunder/ Grass Knot
    -Surf/ Hidden Power Fire

    Latios's Advantages:

    1. Latios relies less on prediction than Mewtwo because its STAB hits every type but Steel for neutral damage.

    2. Much better defensive Special bulk and typing (resistances to Water, Fire, and the Ground immunity are very nice) mean that Latios can take on Kyogre, Groudon and some other specially attacking mons such as Manaphy better.

    3. Latios doesn't have to use Life Orb, and is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, resulting in longer longevity


    1. Mewtwo can actually touch steel-types such as Ferrothorn in the rain with Aura Sphere, and has much better coverage in general.

    2. Mewtwo is faster, able to outspeed Darkrai and Shaymin-S, and doesn't speed tie offensive Latias

    3. STAB Psystrike is more powerful than Latios's Psyshock, allowing Mewtwo to act as a better "mixed" attacker, meaning it can do more damage to Kyogre and Ho-Oh despite it's (slightly) lower Special Attack.

    4. Mewtwo isn't OHKO'd by Scarf Genesect U-turn if properly EV'd to give Genesect a SpAtt boost, allowing it to fire off another attack

    5. Mewtwo's STAB doesn't force it to switch out

    5. Mewtwo isn't weak to Dragon, allowing one to use other Dragons more freely on the team. This is somewhat irrelevant, however, since Mewtwo won't survive most Dragon attacks.
  5. Furai

    Furai we will become who we are meant to be
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    May 4, 2010
    Rayquaza as a physical set-up sweeper compared to Arceus

    Rayquaza @ Life Orb
    Trait: Air Lock
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Outrage / Dragon Claw
    - V-create / Earthquake

    Rayquaza's Advantages

    1. Higher attack by 30 points is gonna make a lot of difference!

    2. Rayquaza gets access to Outrage and V-create, two move that are far stronger than any of Extreme Killer's (well except Shadow Force but that's 2 turns, so I guess it doesn't count :P)

    3. A lot harder to switch into; good luck taking a +2 V-create / Outrage (they're actually the same thing!) from base 150 Attack!

    4. Being part Flying- grants it SPIKES and TOXIC SPIKES immunity, as well as Ground-type moves immunity, which can be phenomenal with Wobbuffet support.

    5. Air Lock is a huge boost as it can beat Excadrill and Kabutops which are often used as checks in weather teams to beat Extreme Killer.

    Rayquaza's Disadvantages

    1. Extreme Killer is FAR bulkier. 120/120/120 compared to 105/90/90

    2. Extreme Killer is faster, which helps in beating key threats such as Palkia and the Lati twins.

    3. Rayquaza is weaker to common moves in Ubers such as Rock- and Dragon-, whereas Arceus is only weak to Fighting (yet doesn't resist anything helpful.. though that bulk helps with this).
  6. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

    Oct 21, 2012
    Some other major disadvantages of Rayquaza that you may wish to mention are its weaknesses to common attacking types (namely Dragon and Ice), and its vulnerability to Stealth Rock, which make it a lot harder for Rayquaza to set up compared to Arceus.

    Another advantage of Air Lock is that with V-Create, Rayquaza can destroy Ferrothorn with ease, something Arceus has trouble doing (Ferrothorn stalls with Leech Seed and Protect).
  7. Gogeta


    Mar 27, 2013
    Garchomp as a sand sweeper compared to Excadrill


    Garchomp @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Veil
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Stone Edge / Fire Fang
    - Outrage / Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake

    Garchomp's Advantages

    1. Garchomp can find more set up opportunities than Excadrill due to Sand Veil, which can make Garchomp very hard to hit in a tier filled with 90% accurate Draco Meteors and 80% accurate Hydro Pumps.

    2. Garchomp is immediately faster than Excadrill, allowing it to revenge kill every dragon in the tier bar the Lati twins, as well as some weakened threats like Kyogre and Ho-Oh.

    3. Garchomp can function extremely well outside of weather too, being perfectly capable of sweeping in rain, sun or even hail.

    4. Choice sets are very common, so bluffing a choice set and getting a free SD is very easy compared to Excadrill, who only has one popular offensive set.

    5. Garchomp has much greater bulk than Excadrill, allowing it to stomach attacks like ScarfOgre's Water Spout at full hp without dying.

    Garchomp's disadvantages

    1. Garchomp is hopelessly outpaced by Excadrill when the sand is up, making revenge killing Garchomp much easier.

    2. Garchomp has to run a speed boosting nature to outrun several threats that would otherwise maul him, meaning he hits notably less harder than Adamant Excadrill, who already has a 5 point advantage in base attack.

    3. Excadrill has a valuable steel typing, which compensates for its lack of bulk, and allows Excadrill to set up on choice locked Dragons, something Garchomp can only dream of.

    4. Garchomp is hopelessly walled by Lugia, Skarmory, and defensive Arceus not weak to Chomp's STAB. Excadrill however can potentially break through these pokes with Iron Head flinches.
  8. Sweep

    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Feb 4, 2013
    Omastar as a rain sweeper compared to Kabutops:


    Omastar @ Life Orb
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Special Attack / 252 Speed
    Modest Nature

    -Hydro Pump
    -Shell Smash
    -Ice Beam
    -Surf/HP Grass/Earth Power

    Omastar's Advantages

    1. More power. Simply put, Life Orb Omastar can kill pokemon, including offensive Arceus formes, that Life Orb Kabutops cannot. After 1 layer of Stealth Rock, Omastar will almost always kill 4/0/0 Arceus that do not resist Hydro Pump whereas Kabutops needs to score a Super Effective hit due to Waterfall's significantly lower base power.

    2. Not walled by Giratina formes or Groudon. Omastar actually enjoys Groudon switchins as it will severely damage it with any of its attack, increasing your team's chances of winning the weather war. Also, it can Smash on a predicted Groudon switchin and begin annihilating your opponent's team. Due to Giratina's weakness to Ice Beam, it cannot safely switch in on Omastar either, especially if hazards are present. Kabutops is hopelessly walled by these two. Because Omastar performs better vs. Groudon (and doesn't care much if Ho-Oh burns it with Sacred Fire), it performs better against Sun teams in general.

    3. Shell Smash. In rain, Omastar reaches 836 speed, enough to outrun Scarf Deoxys-S. Therefore, nothing can revenge it without priority, meaning your opponent will need multiple priority users or one of Smash Omastar's few counters (Arceus-Water, Specially defensive Kyogre, or Specially Defensive Latias) to have a prayer at stopping its outrage. Kabutops has access to Swords Dance, but really fast Scarfers such as Skaymin and Terrakion can still revenge it assuming no Aqua Jet. Kabutops still cannot get by its much more common counters unless they are heavily damaged, even with a SD boost.

    4. More bulk. Omastar can take a +4 Extremespeed from Arceus-Normal after SR; Kabutops cannot. Omastar also has a strong chance to survive moves like Spacial Rend from Scarf Palkia, a move that often kills Kabutops.

    Show Hide
    252 SpA Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Omastar: 86.52 - 102.12%

    252 SpA Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 93.48 - 110.34%

    Omastar's disadvantages

    1. It is significantly slower. Omastar is outrun by the vast majority of scarfers in the tier, outrunning only Modest/Adamant base 90's with some HP investment. With the Smash boost, this makes Omastar relatively easy to revenge kill. Kabutops is harder to take out because only Jolly Scarf Terrakion and up can outrun it, meaning that you'll probably need something that can take a blow from one of Kabutops' powerful attacks to revenge kill it. This extra speed also allows Kabutops to outrun uninvested base 90's, meaning it isn't as useless outside of Rain as Omastar is.

    2. Kabutops is much better vs. fellow rain teams. Omastar hates Palkia, Ferrothorn, Kyogre, and some other pokemon commonly found on Rain teams, whereas Kabutops can muscle past these threats with only a little residual damage.

    3. Omastar does not have access to Rapid Spin. One of the great things about Kabutops is that it can spin hazards away if it senses a check/counter (Arceus-Grass or Groudon for example) coming in. Sure, Kabutops loses to Giratina, so it isn't as good a spinner as it would appear on paper, but quality Offensive Rapid Spinners are extremely rare in Ubers and Kabutops happens to be one of them.

    4. Kabutops hits from the physical side, where the majority of Uber mons are weaker.
  9. Brave Bird spam

    Brave Bird spam

    Nov 30, 2012
    I’ll compare landorus-t to groudon as a tank, since I really think Landorus-T needs some more usage! Please note that I’m comparing support groudon to defensive landorus-t, not offensive variants.

    Landorus-T @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 HP/ 180 Def/ 76 Atk
    Nature: Impish
    -Stealth Rock
    -Stone edge/ superpower/ explosion
    -U-turn/ toxic


    • Immunity to (toxic) spikes and ground type moves. Landorus-t is much harder for spikers like ferrothorn to wear down, so it’s less important to use it with a spinner. With groudon, though, you have to use a teamslot for a hazard remover.
    • Access to U-turn lets it switch out from counters like giratina-o to maintain momentum, which is always nice. It also lets landorus fend off latias and grass arceus though u-turn doesn’t do too much to arceus.
    • Intimidate allows landorus-t to support the team in a unique way, for example it can come in on a stone edge from kabutops, then switch to something like giratina. It’s really risky since if the opponent predicts either move the landorus user is basically screwed, but still helpful once in a while.
    • Can directly threaten extremekiller arceus with superpower/ explosion. It isn’t really relevant in most matches since groudon can phase it away anyway unless it’s the last pokemon, but I still thought it was worth mentioning.
    • Lack of drought is helpful if your team is based on a different weather.

    • No phasing really hurts it since groudon can abuse hazards more easily and direcly while being able to get rid of setup sweepers without needing a coverage move to kill them.
    • Lack of a fire move is sorta annoying since it needs to spam u-turn to avoid skarmory switch-ins and can’t get rid of ferrothorn or forretress as quickly. As I mentioned earlier, though, landorus-t’s spikes immuntity helps it out here.
    • No thunder wave is more minor, but still paralysis is nice to have.
    • Less spdef+ 4x ice weakness is bad in ubers with all sorts of special attackers and ice beamers.
    • Lack of drought can hurt it or help it. It just depends on the team mates being used.
  10. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Banned deucer.

    Jan 26, 2011
    @Lando-T: You forgot to mention the most important part, Lando-T can easily switch-in on Groudon and immediately threaten typical Sun teams with EdgeQuake and U-Turn. This makes it an incredible way to keep Rain up as it can pivot on all the other weather starters. Speaking of which...


    Tyranitar's advantages as a Sand starter

    • Legitimate attacking power and utility means that you aren't just using him for Sandstream
    • Typing doesn't clash with the best reason to use a Sand team; Excadrill.
    • Can actually use his typing to check/counter important threats such as Latios. (unlike Hippo who folds to Mixed Zekrom)
    • Anti-leads suicide hazard leads and roasts defensive ones with Fire Blast (Deo-D doesn't like Crunch).
    • Extremely versatile, can be used to plug up many different holes with different sets.

    Tyranitar's disadvantages

    • Doesn't have reliably recovery to stay healthy and keep Sand around as long.
    • Share's a similar typing to Arceus-Rock.
    • Checks different things than Hippo.
  11. Theorymon

    is a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 14, 2009
    Yikes, considering the fact that this is the first Roles Comparison thread, this needs to get more active! Here, I'll jumpstart it again with a simple one.

    Salamence as a Dragon Dancer compared to: Rayquaza


    Rayquaza @ Life Orb
    Trait: Moxie / Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def/ 252 Spd
    Naive / Jolly Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast

    Salamence's advantages

    • The big thing here is that base 100 Speed. It may not seem like much, but this means that Salamence outspeeds Genesect after a Dragon Dance. Considering how much of a huge threat Genesect is for Dragon Dance Rayquaza, this is one hell of an advantage! Also, speed tying with Palkia, and outspeeding the Kyurems can be something that changes the outcome of a match!
    • Moxie is a great ability. It's great for punishing sacrifices, and in particular, and give Salamence a chance to sweep slower teams or remains of others if it can't find time to set up. Also, while a lesser ability, Intimidate can still be a life saver. I wouldn't call Salamence bulky, but Intimidate has saved me from stuff like Arceus sweeps before!
    • If you got balls, you can actually use Salamence with a different Rayquaza set (like mixed) to overload some slower teams! Just watch out for the shared weaknesses.

    Salamence's disadvantages

    • As great as Salamence's abilities are, Air Lock is a shame to lose. It means that Salamence has more issues with Steels in the rain, while Rayquaza can still slaughter them. Also, unlike Salamence, Rayquaza can revenge some weather sweepers such as Excadrill and Kabutops.
    • Rayquaza has an edge movepool wise, having access to a wonderful priority move in ExtremeSpeed, and more powerful Fire moves in Overheat and V-Create (yes, I know that move is niche on DD Rayquaza).
    • And of course, the power loss hurts. Now, it isn't crippling for Salamence, since it can still get some nice KOs such as a OHKO on max HP Kyogre, and OHKO some Timid Lugia after Stealth Rock. However, any time Salamence doesn't kill something, it usually ends up dead. Also, Rayquaza has WAY more Special Attack, allowing it to run an effective mixed Dragon Dancing set with Draco Meteor unlike Salamence.
  12. peacaroo


    Apr 7, 2013
    Although SD Rayquaza is listed as a physical sweeper, to me it serves better as a mid-game hole-puncher. Weakness to SR, life orb, and mediocre bulk means that Rayquaza can't really take a non-resisted hit, nor will it sweep often after an SD because it can be revenge killed by other Extremespeed users as well as by Shadow Sneak. It is most effective when it gets a free switch-in on Ferrothorn/Forretress. If it is still early in the game, the opponent may be tempted to switch out to resist the fire move, during which Rayquaza can SD. Once at +2, the 95 speed isn't really an issue because Extremespeed will OHKO common Lati@s and Palkia sets. If such an opportunity doesn't arise, however, then Rayquaza often finds itself going into the late game with nothing to do but firing off unboosted Extremespeeds.

    The main advantages of Rayquaza over Arceus are its ability to destroy Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and defensive Giratina and its ability to check many weather sweepers barring Garchomp.

    Arceus, on the other hand, almost always has the opportunity to go to +2, and sometimes even to +4. Max hp, max attack Arceus with silk scarf or even leftovers can set up easily on neutral attacks and attempt a sweep. Thus, Arceus is a phenomenal revenge killer against most non-specs/banded pokemon, as it can set up a SD first before attacking (whereas Rayquaza could never set up on Mewtwo, Kyogre, Palkia, etc.). Meanwhile, max speed silk scarf/life orb Arceus functions as a better cleaner than Rayquaza too because of its superior speed.

    I feel that given the choice between the two for a single physical sweeper, Arceus is almost always better, but of course, the two can be used in tandem, or Rayquaza can be used as a physical attacker if a different Arceus set is desired.
  13. lousy918


    Jun 15, 2012
    you mentioned Arceus' investment in hp and atk, then u said 'superior speed'. u can't rly do that
  14. peacaroo


    Apr 7, 2013
    Oops, I meant you can run different types of E-killer sets depending on what you prefer. I personally go for max hp but max speed allows you to tie with arceus-ghost and most likely outspeed other E-killers. That statement wasn't too clear anyway. Even a non hp-invested Arceus can survive a lot of neutral hits whereas Rayquaza really can't.
  15. Hack

    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus
    Ubers Co-Leader

    Mar 12, 2012
    He is correct lol. Lousy, with 56 evs in speed, ekiller is still faster than adamant ray, with 200 hp evs to boot. 168 evs for jolly ray, but no one uses that. You are still bulkier regardless (and most likely faster if you run the legitimate 56 evs like you should).
  16. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Banned deucer.

    Jan 26, 2011
    Forretress vs Kabutops vs Tentacruel vs Excadrill as a Rapid Spin user

    Forretress's advantages:
    • Hazards! Especially Spikes, which not only are incredibly useful to have multiple layers up in general but they also help to wear down the two spinblockers that are commonly found with recovery moves. He can also lay down Stealth Rock or Toxic Spikes but he generally wants his other moves.
    • Excellent typing plus the bulk to get things done. Being a Steel type means he resists the Giratina(-o)'s Dragon Tail (making it that much harder to wear him down) as well as a nifty immunity to Toxic (Spikes) while giving him a wealth of resistances to find chances to spin or spike. The Bug secondary typing removes the pesky Ground and Fighting weaknesses so that Forretress can laugh at Giratina-O's Earthquakes and tank a couple of Ghostceus's Focus Blasts with a SpDef spread.
    • Toxic may not be something unique but it fits really well on Forretress. Giratina-O often lacks recovery so hitting it with Toxic helps it die a lot faster. Arceus-Ghost often relies on his bulk and recovery to setup and tank so Toxic dismantles what he is intended for. The only spinblockers that aren't bothered by Toxic, Giratina-A and RestTalk Giratina-O, are massive Spikes fodder thanks to Forretress's bulk and typing so he has the upperhand regardless.
    • Pain Split isn't exactly Recover but when your most common switch-ins have either 150 or 120 base HP it does a lot for the little bagworm. The Giratina's will just about never kill it themselves and only preventing a Rapid Spin while hazards get thrown up on their side. Arceus-Ghost loses to SpDef Forretress once he's hit by Toxic as he won't be able to hit hard enough fast enough with his Focus Misses. It also allows Forretress to beat Ferrothorn easily one-on-one as it can Rapid Spin away his hazards while setting up his own and healing off the minor damage receives (which is often via Leech Seed which means Ferro will stay healthy enough for HP sapping).
    • Custap Berry lets Forretress take the suicide hazards approach and maybe even pull off a clutch Rapid Spin when carefully conserved and played.
    Forretress's disadvantages:
    • He's weak and super easy setup fodder for anything that doesn't mind a Toxic. Giving free switch ins to multiple powerful wallbreakers means that the rest of the team is going to have to be built to stomach hits or suffer every time Forretress attempts to do his job.
    • Being slow means that he'll have to survive an attack if he ever wants to Spike or Rapid Spin (unless Custap).
    • Super duper Fire weakness means that even under Rain Fire Blasts are going to hurt and the surprise Fire Blast Ghostceus will completely ruin him.
    • He's not THAT bulky so you'll still have to bide your time and play for those windows of opportunity to do what he does.
    Kabutops's advantages:
    • Kabutops is not just a Rapid Spinner but also an excellent cleaner. This means it can fit easily on more offensive Rain teams and serve more than just one purpose on your team.
    • He hits hard which means, with smart prediction and play, he can eventually break through the spin blockers (especially if it's a Ghostceus) and clear the field for a Rapid Spin when needed.
    • Swift Swim makes him very, very fast which means he can take the suicide Spin route if you find yourself in a situation where you need those hazards gone more than having Kabutops around.
    Kabutops's disadvantages:
    • With his speed and power being reliant on Rain, he doesn't really have much a chance to do anything if the weather changes to something else.
    • Being very fragile also hurts as it'll force prediction based scenarios where you want to punish a retreat with Rapid Spin but you also want to avoid your opponent predicting that to stay in to faint Kabutops.
    • Without any hazards resistance and the reliance on Life Orb, Kabutops is very easy to wear down and remove before he manages to push past the Spin Blocker and Rapid Spin.
    • Again, being reliant on Rain means that the only types of teams Kabutops can fit on are ones with Kyogre and his fragility means that he's not an option for stall teams.
    • Useless if burned.
    Tentacruel's advatanges:
    • Rain Dish is the biggest selling point of Tentacruel as it gives him really nice passive recovery to keep him healthy and open up cool options like Substitute.
    • Like Forretress he gets access to Toxic Spikes (although that being the only one hurts him) which can be useful to get an extra 12% on offensive teams or break down defensive ones with Toxic poison.
    • Being a grounded Poison type removes opposing T-Spikes which is useful to any team. The Water typing is also always useful thanks to the nice resists it has (although it isn't exceptional) and with his high special bulk he can serve as a solid answer to most CM Arceus formes. The Fire resist is nifty as most Deo-S run that as their attacking move so Tentacruel can beat those leads easily one on one.
    • Tentacruel has a moderately fast base Speed that allows him to Rapid Spin first against slower teams full of the many 90 base speed cover legends.
    • Scald, it's there and it's good.
    Tentacruel's disadvantages:
    • Unlike the Kabutops and Excadrill, Tentacruel doesn't have an offensive presence and, unlike Forretress, he doesn't have Spikes to put hazzard pressure on the Ghost types. Toxic Spikes could help with Toxic poisoning Arceus-Ghost but if he comes in when only a single layer is up not only is he not significantly crippled but he is also protected from more troubling status. Giratina-O Levitates above those hazards, although he'll have to be careful about Scald, and Giratina-A just laughs at anything Tentacruel tries to do, although the rest of the team might not like T-Spikes.
    • Being a specially bulky Water type is mostly already covered by Kyogre, Tentacruel's Rain provider. This makes it harder to justify him on your team as part of his niche is already filled (one of the lesser parts though).
    Excadrill's advantages:
    • Excellent defensive typing AND offensive stats means that Excadrill can fit on a variety of teams and function differently as desired.
    • Fantastic speed thanks to Sand Stream and powerful offensive stats with the mighty Earthquake, haxy Iron Head, and Swords Dance allows Excadrill to serve as their cleaner and Rapid Spinner at the same time. It's really good at both by being able to outspeed even Scarf Terrakion, smack things with boosted Earthquakes, and Iron Head hax past the few things that might be able to stop it. (It has a 100% chance to flinch when used on Giratina-O)
    • At the same time, it has that nifty Steel/Ground typing that gives it a double SR resist and T-Spikes immunity as well as a bunch of useful resistances and an immunity to the mighty Zekrom's Bolt Strike. This makes it easier to pull off that Rapid Spin as it's hard to wear him down and you won't necessarily die to the first hit (that meaty 110 base HP comes in handy). It can even use a bulky spread for Rain teams to capitalize on it's convenient typing while retaining the raw punch to get past spin blockers thanks to Swords Dance and Mold Breaker Earthquakes.
    • It also learns Stealth Rock which is always nice to have, especially when Mold Breaker means you don't have to worry about random Magic Bounce shenanigans. It may not be very useful for wearing down the ghost types but that is what his Earthquakes are for.
    Excadrill's disadvantages:
    • Sun can't really use it.
    • Okay, things aren't all sunshine and rainbows. It's quite slow outside of Sand and the 60 base defense + 65 defense special defense really undermines all the other advantages it has in the defensive department. It also doesn't have much recovery besides Leftovers so it can't really heal off the hits it does take.
    • Being a physical attacker means that an unexpected Will-O-Wisp will completely ruin it.
    • The mono-Ground offensive options on the bulky attacker sets may still hit Levitaters but it doesn't solve the issue of Flying types like Rayquaza, Ho-Oh, or Shaymin.
    • Common weaknesses to Ground, Fighting, and Fire means that Giratina-O's Earthquake and Arceus-Ghost's Focus Blast or Fire Blast (outside of Rain) will take it out in a heartbeat while random Fire attacks will hurt it even under the cover of Rain.
    We haven't done spin blockers yet, just saying.
  17. superstar


    Jul 25, 2011
    Arceus-Ghost vs. Giratina-O vs. Giratina-A as a spinblocker

    • Flawless coverage between Focus Blast and Judgement means that it can take an offensive role while still having room for two other moves
    • Offensive CM sets are truly countered only by Ho-Oh and perhaps SpDef Kyogre, allowing Arceus-Ghost to be a terrifying late-game sweeper
    • Recover! Access to reliable recovery is very important and is perhaps its biggest advantage. It means that Arceus-Ghost is much harder to gradually wear down
    • Can damage all spinners heavily, including Forretress that lack Pain Split, and outright kill Forry with a fire move if needed
    • Very fast with 120 base speed
    • Unpredictable: can run a variety of useful sets such as Magic Coat anti-lead, CM, Shadow Force Swords Dance, and Support with Will-O-Wisp
    • Can check Genesect slightly better than the Giras due to not fearing Ice Beam
    • Not weak to Dragon, allowing it to deal with the Lati twins and other dragons
    • Not weak to Ice, allowing it to stop Mewtwo and certain Arceus-formes (such as Fighting) much better
    • Usually does not have room for Roar phaze with
    • You can't run another Arceus form. Many rain teams would love to have an Arceus-Fighting, sand teams enjoy having Arceus-Grass, everybody loves to run Extremekiller, etc.
    • Vulnerability to all three forms of hazards
    • Toxic absolutely ruins most varients
    • Lack of Water resistance allows the other S-rank threat in Kyogre to come in and spam water moves against it
    • Lacks priority bar Extremespeed, which is really only useful on SD sets
    • Cannot run Leftovers


    • Great mixed attacking stats
    • Excellent bulk allows it to function extremely well as a mixed attacker and threaten all the Spinners
    • Can run STAB Dragon Tail for Taunt-proof phazing that can hurt things too
    • Allows the team to run an Arceus form other than Ghost
    • STAB priority in Shadow Sneak hits psychic weak mons such as the Latis and Mewtwo for heavy damage, as well as picking off damaged mons in general
    • Powerful moves such as Draco Meteor and Outrage allow it to hit hard on both sides of the spectrum
    • Immunity to Spikes and Ground-moves
    • Can run a double phazing set with RestTalk and a stronger DTail than Giratina
    • Can check Ho-Oh much better than Arceus-Ghost, though must fear burn
    • Dragon-typing gives it some useful resistances including Water and Fire
    • Does not like being burned, unlike the other two spinblockers who don't mind as much
    • Vulnerable to all forms of residual damage because of no recovery and no Leftovers
    • Weak to Dragon-type moves
    • Slow-- only base 90 speed, leaving it fighting to outcreep support base 90s and outsped by every offensive mon in the tier


    • Incredible bulk allows it to wall practically everything except for powerful Dragon-moves and boosted Ice Beams
    • Can afford to run RestTalk (although Gira-O can do this too), allowing it to recover health as well as not care about status, as well as letting it phaze "faster" than everything else while asleep
    • Allows the team to run an Arceus form other than Ghost
    • Again, can wall many of the Ubers to hell and back
    • Checks Ho-oh totally, only being 4HKO'd by Brave Bird from the Tank set
    • Can check Kyogre with a SpDef set very effectively
    • Can run Leftovers

    • Massive hazard bait, although it none of the Spikers appreciate burns bar Deoxys
    • Very slow
    • No offensive presence other than the phazing moves or a rare CM set leaves it very vulnerable to letting a wallbreaker get off a powerful move
    • Usually only works well in teams that run a Spiker and SR user
    • Even its bulk doesn't let it sponge hugely powerful attacks like Latias's Draco Meteor, Ghostceus's Judgement/Shadow Force, or Mewtwo's LO Ice Beam
    • RestTalk isn't exactly the best recovery, and leaves it somewhat vulnerable to the mercy of luck while asleep
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  18. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Banned deucer.

    Jan 26, 2011
    It's worth mentioning that Giratina-O can run an effective RestTalk double phaze set too. It's not outclassed by Tina-A either since it has a much stronger DTail and Levitate.
  19. barry4ever

    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Oct 20, 2009
    Just pointing out some stuff. Giratina-O Sneak is very handy for sniping down weakened Ubers and not just Lati/ Mewtwo. Also, ghostceus doesnt need to use a mixed set at all, why is that listed in disadvantages. Also this stuff should be updated into the op if its meant to be used as a uber battling resource, imo.
    Furai likes this.
  20. superstar


    Jul 25, 2011
    Well, I was comparing it to Gir-O, one of who's advantages over Arc-Ghost is that it can run mixed imo. You're right tho, in that it's only useful for Ho-Oh. I edited it out
  21. Jimmyftw


    Jul 26, 2013
    I didn't know Pain Split works on Ghost, it's a normal type attack. I never tried it so I don't know, but if it does work it is very useful indeed.

    Giratina-o dragon STAB is also an advantage. Forcing alot of switches while having access to Dragontail means a lot of hazard damage to the opponent. Also Shadow Sneak is very useful not only for Mewtwo, Lati@s but also for general picking. Especially when Shadow Sneak is paired with another priority such as Ekiller's ESpeed it can get you out of a tight spot if you mess up somewhere.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  22. superstar


    Jul 25, 2011
    Pain Split does indeed work on Ghost (in fact its one of the big things that allows Forry to outlast spinblockers)

    I'll add the Shadow Sneak thing in. Already mentioned the Dragon STAB thing
  23. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Banned deucer.

    Jan 26, 2011
    Deoxys-S vs Deoxys-A vs Custap Forretress vs Froslass as a suicide Spikes lead
    Deoxys-S's advantages:
    • As the name implies, Deoxys-Sonic is very fast. He's gotta go so fast that even Scarf Palkia is too slow. This makes things pretty straightforward when it comes to laying hazards as there's not much that is going to outspeed and 2HKO you before you get two layers up.
    • Along with Spikes, Deoxys-S has a wide enough movepool to help make sure he does his job. Taunt can stop other Taunt users, setup sweepers, or even other hazard setters. Magic Coat can reflect Prankster or opposing Deoxys-S Taunts. Trick with a Choice Scarf to pull off an anti-lead set while having even more speed to lay hazards.
    • Decent offensive stats with coverage options allows Deo-S to use moves like Fire Punch to OHKO Genesects or beat Rapid Spin users like Forretress. He can also use Superpower for Tyranitar, Dark Pulse for Magic Bounce and other Deo-S, or Espeed for picking off opposing Deoxys-A/S after the are knocked down to their Focus Sash.
    • In addition to Spikes, Deoxys learns Stealth Rock so you can attempt to set that up as well if you want.
    Deoxys-S's disadvantages:
    • He doesn't do anything but setup hazards early on so it's like going into a match 5-6.
    • He's fast but not Sanic fast so speedsters like Choice Scarf Terrakion can outspeed and 2HKO limiting him to only a single layer of hazards.
    • There's a lot of priority in Ubers from the likes of Giratina-O, Rayquaza, Ekiller, and even Forretress that can take advantage of Deoxys-S's reliance on Focus Sash.
    • His offenses only work if they hit for super effective damage and even then they aren't much to write home about. This means that just about anything that learns Magic Coat (which there is a lot of in Ubers and the move in general is effective in this metagame) can make sure he isn't mindlessly laying those Spikes early on like he is supposed to.
    • There are also Rapid Spin users that his coverage typically can not cover like Tentacruel or Kabutops.
    • Tyranitar is also a cool Pokemon and his Sand Stream ability can be used to take advantage of Deoxys-S banking on his Focus Sash to give him a second turn in play.
    • He can't Taunt and Spike at the same time so lead setup sweepers force him into a prediction game between stopping setup or getting up multiple layers before he is knocked out by unboosted attacks.
    Deoxys-A's advantages:
    • Scary strong and still very fast. Makes it a lot harder for your opponent to play around seeing as they are often forced into an uncomfortable position of trying to avoid early KOs or easy Spikes.
    • Those offenses allows him to really use those coverage options and beat just about every Rapid Spin user one on one.
    • Can also setup Stealth Rock if you want him to.
    Deoxys-A's disadvantages:
    • He's fast enough to beat every other unboosted threat not names Deoxys-S but he doesn't have enough to outrun the majority of the Choice Scarf users. If he doesn't run a speed boosting nature Deo-A is outsped by neutral Choice Scarf 90s while positive Choice Scarf 90s can outrun even max Speeed Deoxys-A.
    • Deoxys-A is SUPER fragile which means he MUST run a Focus Sash if your goal is to ensure multiple layers of Spikes. If at any point he loses that Focus Sash he will not be surviving just about any hit whatsoever. (surprisingly enough, though, he just barely manages to avoid the OHKO from Scarf Terrakion's Double Kick) This means he's pretty much stuck as a lead since that is generally the only time there won't be any hazards up to break his Focus Sash.
    • Major 4 moveslot syndrome. He'd like to run Psycho Boost, HP Fire, Ice Beam(/Punch), ExtremeSpeed, Superpower, and Dark Pulse all at once but he can only pick 3 of those to go along with Spikes.
    • His strongest attacks lower his offenses after use which means that a misprediction leaves Deoxys-A without his intimidating firepower and makes it easier to beat his hazards game.
    Custap Forretress's advantages:
    • Takes a different approach to suicide leading by relying on Sturdy plus Custap Berry as opposed to natural speed plus Focus Sash. This means that some of the tricks that work for the traditional hazard leads won't be effective against Custap Forretress. (although in general, it leaves him more vulnerable)
    • He can use all three types of hazards allowing you to adjust to your team when teambuilding and to your opponent's when playing.
    • He also learns Rapid Spin which can be used with Custap Berry to pull off a clutch Spin mid-late game or to anti-lead standard Deoxys-S by cutting his own defenses so that Fire Punch puts him in Custap range.
    • Even with reduced defenses he still maintains natural bulk thanks to his excellent defensive typing that allows him to play more like a traditional Forretress instead of a suicide lead against more defensive teams.
    • Moderate offenses and a strong STAB Gyro Ball helps him prevent opposing setup.
    • A Custap Explosion can be used to take a massive chunk while preventing an opposing Rapid Spin and keeping momentum for Forry's team.
    • Immune to Sandstorm.
    Custap Forretress's disadvantages:
    • The Sturdy + Custap approach is generally inferior to the traditional suicide lead method as it leaves him vulnerable to moves like Taunt and Dark Void as well as initial chip damage followed by a strong attack or even a straight OHKO thanks to Mold Breaker/Turboblaze/Terravolt ignoring Sturdy.
    • The double Fire weakness and poor Special Defense makes the chip then KO tactic fairly easy. It also means any Ho-Oh can Sacred Fire and hope the 50% chance to burn removes his second turn of hazards laying.
    • As rare as it is, Unnerve also exists and it'll prevent the use of Custap Berry while that Pokemon is active.
    • Still not strong enough to beat most potential Magic Coat users.
    Froslass's advantages
    • The Ghost typing makes Froslass a thing. It's the only suicide Spikes lead that beats every Rapid Spin user and it can do it without having to spend the turn attacking.
    • The Ghost typing also makes it immune to ExtremeSpeed which limits the priority options that can be used to beat her.
    • She's quite fast at 110 base speed which allows her to outrun the large portion of the metagame that sits around 90 base speed as well as speed tie with non-HP Fire Latios and outrun most Latias and standard Ekiller.
    • She has Taunt to block slower Taunts, Spikes and setup moves.
    • Icy Wind deals about 80% minimum to Rayquaza and also slows down Deoxys-Speed so that Froslass can outrun it the next turn and KO with Shadow Ball or cripple it with Taunt. This makes her an excellent anti-lead to the other suicide Spikes leads.
    • Cursed Body is a very useful and frustrating ability that gives her a 30% chance to disable a move when used on her. This often results in another free turn to lay more Spikes down.
    • Ghost STAB means that random Magic Bounce users are not a problem for her.
    Froslass's disadvantages
    • Darkrai is a massive thorn in her side as he can not only outspeed and Dark Void but can also just 2HKO with his Dark Pulse which makes responding to him with a teammate a whole lot harder.
    • Fire weakness means that Ho-Oh's Sacred Fire can bypass Focus Sash 47,5% of the time.
    • That general lack of speed makes it a lot easier to outrun and 2HKO her.
    • She isn't very strong so, once again, most Magic Coat users can ruin her attempts to get Spikes down.

    Feel free to follow on to what I've already put up with other options for these roles as I've avoided talking about sets I haven't had much experience with. (like Cloyster leads) Also, if you guys can think of any roles that have multiple options for them but don't want to write about them yourselves feel free to pass the idea to me. So far I've got Choice Scarf users (just the top 3 probably) and offensive Kyogre checks on my list.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013

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