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Discussion in 'Ubers' started by Tobes, Oct 27, 2012.
Extremekiller is definitely S material.
i originally pushed for ghostceus to be s-tier, so i am fine with that.
ludicolo isn't as bad as the rest of the pokemon in e tier, i'd say d.
i am fine with all your other changes.
Anybody else thinking Mewtwo should be S-tier? Almost all of its sets are pretty devastating, and it's not really that vulnerable to revenge killing, so you have to play around it a bit.
Nah, any set without Substitute and not StallTwo is hard-checked by U-Turn Genesect. Scarf Kyogre also OHKOes it even at + 1 with full HP Water Spout; Jirachi in Rain destroys it, Sp.Def Darkceus beats all sets in all weathers. Compared to other S-Tier threats Mewtwo is easier to stop and provides less team support.
Not sure how I feel about Arceus-Grass being A-Tier. I believe Arceus-Fight fits the A-Tier description better than Grass does, so would anyone mind elaborating on why it's placed so high? I realize it combats both Kyogre and Groudon well and can serve as a decent check to dragons, but that's all I see it doing. That definitely gives it a purpose, but I feel it needs a LOT of support to do well, and ultimately believe it should be B-Tier.
Looking at the other A-Tier mons I see Arceus-Grass losing to most of them with relative ease. Many of those are also commonly used alongside Kyogre or Groudon. I realize I should be taking teams into consideration, but I just see it being dead weight more than anything else. I'm all for keeping it A-Tier if everyone agrees, but with the release of Genesect and Kyurem-White I just don't see it fulfilling it's niche that it once had.
Whyyyyy, I appreciate your well-informed and thoughtful opinion!
Sarcasm aside, Genesect is easily the best scarf'Ed Uber poke as it has a strong and fast U-Turn to help check Lati@s, Darkrai, MewTwo, Rayquaza, etc. when not switching into a fire move, and it can check a ton of shit with a desperate explosion; therefore, it is solid a tier even though it ruins the tier!
Why isn't Lugia in this? It can, after all, counter/stall...
Amongst a variety of others, but those are the common ones.
Does Lugia really wall Arceus-Norm and Dialga? I doubt that. And while I'm not arguing the placements, I do want to know why are Arceus Ground and Fight B-Tier? Seems a tad low. :/
Also I agree with placing Arceus-Ghost in S tier, but feel free to disregard all of this, I am just a scrub.
I also agree with Arceus-Ghost on the S-Tier. It is easily the most versatile of all Arceus forms. While the Normal form can use any item, Ghost Arceus has a better typing, both offensively and defensively. It can go special, physical or even defensive. Ghost Arceus lacks a weakness to Ice and Dragon-type attacks, wich is an advantage compared to Giratina. It also has reliable recovery and doesn't need to rely on Hidden Power Fire. It can easily fit on any team, and defensive versions are great checks to the Extremekiller Arceus.
Ye I am voting for Ho-oh to be in the B tier, it needs so much support to get running, deoyxs-S/A basically mean Sr is going to go up and naturally ho-oh needs a rapid spinner (fortress) and top that off the fact there is 3 very effective spin blockers in ou and it's not that hard to keep Sr up and cripple ho-oh for the rest of the match, regardless of regenerator ho-oh will still come in at 50%, regenerator only means it can switch out effectively not switch in while SR is in play. Also sunlight, ho-oh needs the sun to be effective as lets be honest here, if your using ho-oh you want to abuse stab sacred fire or you would be better off using arceus or another bulky attacker such as groundon.
Ho-oh just needs so much support to pull off it's sets due to how difficult getting rid of Sr is in ubers and the fact it needs sun or you would be better off using another pokemon. I dare say it might even be a C rank, I just don't feel the effort to get it running is really worth it as it's too easy to get up Sr, very hard for fortress to get rid of it and complete reliance on the sun to be truely effective.
I'd make the proposal to move Arc-Ghost to S-Tier; it honestly does what Arceus does better in some ways. For one, it fucking spinblocks, and is IMO the best spinblocker in the tier because it can actually wreck stall pretty quickly because +2 252 Atk Ghost Plate Shadow Force is just insane, and you have the defenses to get to +4 a lot of the time. It can be used to wallbreak early game, mid-game, or late game, and it has ES to pick off a weakened +2 Arceus since, dunno if I mentioned, you're immune to their ES.
I'd also really like to seriously suggest placing Landorus-T on the list. A lot of people honestly don't know how amazing Lando-T is in ubers. Superpower does ~88% to Arcues normal with a Life Orb and Adamant nature, while they do not OHKO you with ES at +1. In addition, you can Rock Polish and sweep teams late game when all the walls have been weakened (Hazards support + Lando is no joke). EQ does ~45% to Groudon, Superpower OHKOs standard Ferrothorn after spikes, and no one really sees it coming and it is an excellent defensive pivot. And hey, it can set up on choiced electric moves, which is always a plus. And no, it's NOT an inferior Groudon. For one, it doesn't change the weather if you happen to like rain. Two, it has Intimidate. Three, that Flying-type can come in handy in many situations. And finally, and probably most importantly, not many people really know what the hell to do against it, and almost everyone is surprised by just how hard it hits.
Lando-T for C tier AT MINIMUM.
edit: Why the hell is Gliscor above KyuB? Gliscor has a hard time switching into, oh I dunno, most of the tier, and in addition it is walled by anything immune to Toxic. Kyu-B has some serious flaws too, but as a Scarfer, its niche lies in having a higher Attack than Zekrom while also being faster than it, which is critical at some times. Gliscor for C (hell, D tbh), Kyu-B for B.
Ho-oh wall and checks a huge amount of the meta-game (most notably most CM Arceus and Darkari, but there are a lot others like Dialga, Genosect, Ferrothorn and more), has no true counter, fit in all weather (yes even in rain), and can also sweep if you run a speed boosting set. All the above are enough to make it a A rank, yes SR is a thorn on Ho-oh side, and it does need support for that but it is not impractical to spin (Don't forget Exardrill!) or prevent SR (with Prankster taunt or Magic Bounce stuff). Regenerator also make up for the SR weakness quite a bit. It is definitely A-rank.
I also agree with Arceus-Ghost S tier, not sure for Lando-T placement though.
Gliscor is freaking alloying once it set up. It easily stall forever until it runs out of pp that it is not even funny. Yes special attack can kill it, but it can set up on some physical things like Groudon or weak stuff like Chansey. It has its fault but it works most of the time, thus it is a B rank. Kyu-B is C because it has to compete with Zekrom, has a bad defensive typing and bad movepools. It doesn't have a decent physical ice-stab while Zekrom has Stab Bolt strikes. The fact that Kyu-B was given a suspect ladder test in OU shows that it has quite a bit of faults that can be exploited on, thus the C rank.
Arc-Ghost for S!!!!
Most of the things in Ubers that set up shouldn't be annoying, they should be able to cut through teams like butter. Seriously so many things can kill Gliscor it's not even funny, and as a physical wall it's pretty shitty (It can Toxic Ray and then just die kinda, which is cool but then you're down 1 poke). I've never seen Scor work ANY of the time, let alone most of it. And to have it in a tier with so many other walls which can actually do something and don't die in 1 hit to half of the tier is laughable.
I know Kyu-B has a variety of faults. But hell, Band Kyu-B can 2HKO standard Ferro with Outrage after Spikes support. Kyu-B's biggest niche over Zekrom is that it outspeeds Zekrom and Reshiram. Sure it doesn't have Volt Switch or STAB Bolt Strike, which is very unfortunate. But you have more speed, and more Attack. You should be using your Dragon STABS about 80% of the time though anyways (and then Fusion Bolt the other 19%, last 1% for Ice Beam/Toxic/Stone Edge/Freeze Shock/What-have-you). So basically, Kyu-B has a very, very important niche, especially as a Scarfer.
Maybe the word "annoying" is not enough for describing Gliscor, it is “CHEAP” and sometimes "unstoppable". Sub+Protect+Poison Heal stall forever until you run out of pp. With a set like this:
252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe Jolly
~ Protect / Taunt
You come in on sth you can set a Sub on, then the opponent switch to, say, Specs Kyogre and face you behind a Sub. You can then Toxic it as its break your Sub, you also realize it is slower then you. After that you just keep spamming Protect and Sub to stall it forever thanks to Poison Heal recovery, until Kyogre dies to Toxic or switch out, and when it switches, it always risk to let you having a free Sub up in front of Gliscor counter, very possibly allow it to keep stalling.
If you can provide Toxic Spikes support, even things that are faster than you, such as Scarf Kyogre, risk being stall to death with Sub and Protect. Steel type has to be wary of EQ also. Of course, there are still things and ways that can stop it, such as Ferrothorn, Skarmory and refresh user, but really, Gliscor ought to be a B rank material.
Kyu-B is only an one-trick pony(spamming Outrage), while Zekrom has Bolt Strike AND can still Spam Outrage if it wants to. Don't tell me Kyu-B can go mix also because Zekrom can also do that and arguably better thanks to a better typing (defensively at least). I know Kyu-B has that sexy 170 Atk and 95 Spd, but Zekrom 150 Atk are nothing to laugh at either, and 95 Spd can't compensate for the multiple weakness Kyu-B has (most notably SR).
Gliscor's role in Ubers isn't exactly to soak hits like if he's Lugia or something. His role in Ubers is to Toxic stall the opponent to death with his infinite sustain from Poison Heal.
Find something to switch in on (like zekrom Bolt Strike, Groudon, Ferrothorn, etc), and get a Substitute which is pretty much free. As they break your Sub you Toxic them, Protect, then switch out. Next time you come in, just spam Sub/Protect and there's nothing they can really do about it but succumb to poison. If they send in an unstatused opponent, just Toxic them and repeat the process later. Steel types get Earthquaked. Taunt is a viable option over Protect for better stallbreaking.
There's more to defensive Pokemon than just stats. You pick Skarmory mainly to set up Spikes (along with countering certain things). Skarmory, Gliscor, and Giratina aren't even remotely comparable and I'm not sure what led you to that kind of conclusion.
I have no idea why were you even compare Gliscor to Skarm and Giratina. They all have different functions for a team. Skarm set up Spikes, and resist Dragon, which Giratina and Gliscor can't do. Gliscor can Toxic stall forever with Poison heal+Protect+Sub, Skarm and Giratina (Hell, all other set up sweeper) fail to do that. BTW you seems to forget Skarm has Roost, which allow you to reliably recover Outrage damage and that Giratina is weak to Dragon. Stat does not mean everything in Uber, Typing and moves are also important.
I understand what Gliscor is used for, and I'm not a pro Ubers player, but I did hit 1 on Showdown and Beta Ubers a while back, so I think I at least know a little bit what I am talking about.
If you honestly have no check to SubToxic Scor you probably deserve to lose anyways. That strat doesn't work as well as it does in OU, Gliscor just cannot keep up with how offensive Ubers is.
Jesus, I am not saying Kyu-B>Zekrom, I am saying it fulfills a niche, which is a harder hitting Outrage and a base 95 Speed.
Actually, Porii and I were wrong, it looks like Lando-T is on the list, Lando-I is not. So someone please rank it. IMO it is C because it faces huge competition with Garchomp and Excardrill. But it does hit like a luke under sand, also has a trolly 101 speed.
Arceus-Ghost should definitely be S-Tier, being immune to Extremekillers STAB, and barring an untimely miss, he cripples the Extremekiller with Will-O-Wisp and then proceeds to stall it out with Recover. Also, Arceus-Ghost does an excellent job of luring out Ferrothorn and Forretress hoping to set up entry hazards, and then OHKOs them (or reduces Forretress to Sturdy if Stealth Rock isn't up).
I also feel that Lugia should be A-tier, as it walls a good portion of physical attackers with Multiscale and its ridiculously high bulk, and that Toxic + SubRoost combo shuts down many Uber threats, espcecially Groudon and Rayquaza, which threaten Stall and Rain Teams in general.
Ah yes, seems as though I was wrong, thank God Lando-T is on the list, though I haven't played with or seen much Lando-I, so I can't really speak for that.
Lugia is fine in B, it does not threaten a wide variety of things.
Lugia could be A, due to its great walling capabilities, but B seems fine for now. Plus, any good player will have an answer to Lugia.
Suggesting Ninjask to D rank, it can be effective if your opponent don't have phazer or taunt, it is kind of a "hit or miss" pokemon, but it can be viable as it beat Deoxy-S lead, And if it sucessfully pass the boost to its intended target, it can be devastating. Just that it has high risk of using it.
I must ask...why is Charizard in ubers...Im assuming theres a special build to counter the tier?