The UU Viability Ranking Thread

[JayHankEdLyon]

I personally do like gligar, but I'm going to be honest and say that it's fine at C-Rank.
y'know how it walls the supercommon heracross and mienshao? Well, even those two mon's can take on Gligar with ease, with SD and HP ice respectively.

You're missing the point. I'm not saying it should be B because it's a great wall. I'm saying it should be B because, used correctly, it's one of the best pivots in the tier.

Also I know anecdotal experience doesn't mean much blah blah blah, but I have faced a grand total of one (1) HP Ice Meinshao in the past six months of Gligaring.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Porygon 2 For A-Rank

Look I'm not going to make this more complicated than it should: Porygon 2 is simply one of the metagame's best walls which is only really hindered by one thing: the *good* fighting types in UU. And it can actually take a hit from most of them bar something like LO Mienshao HJK or CB herra's CC(which for the most CB herra isn't even viable, scarf is the way to go. also I believe CB Herra barely manages the kill with CC after SR, someone correct me if I'm wrong). But despite it's one noticable flaw, it's still an amazing wall! not only can this thing go as a special wall but it can serve as a physical wall (which trust me the physicaly defensive set (not on smogon yet I don't think) is a monster to deal with as it para's and recovers in the front of all your sweepers) and a possible mixed wall! But for the most part i'm going to bring up the mixed wall AKA Smogon's "Defensive Duck" Set for it's defensive discussion.

Alright first lets dive into it's great job as a wall: It can wall most of the metagame's sweepers and well, it's up to you whether you para them and slowly chip them while recovering with twave + recover , or slowly stall with toxic+ recover, either way you'll annoy the crap out of the opposing sweeper and possibly take them down. And this thing can actually take hits from A LOT of fighting types, especially the standerd sets. (case and point: 252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 56.68 - 67.37% , 252 Atk Scrafty Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 49.73 - 58.28% etc) as you can see from those calcs, the standerd defensive duck set is no joke when it comes to taking physical hits, and of course as porygon users know, isn't a joke on the specially defensive side. Now that's half of my arguement for the defensive side since I feel like people are going to argue against me, which is fine but I don't feel like restating myself so I'll simply save the rest of my arguement on it's defensive side.

Now you maybe thinking: HURR PORY CAN NEVER GO OFFENSIVE SO IT LOSES TO WALLS LIKE EMPOLEN THAT CAN.(I know I mispelled Empoleoon, that was on purpose): Enter: Duck Tank/Offensive Porygon. This thing has so much going for it, not only does it simply demolish usual porygon2 stoppers but it allows this thing to have an actual offensive presance, now if you don't believe me lets look at some calcs (counting download):

252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Raikou: 136-162 (42.36 - 50.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes(standerd sub CM)​

+1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 260-306 (64.35 - 75.74%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes(CroCune)​

​

​

+1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mienshao: 279-328 (102.95 - 121.03%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scrafty: 163-193 (60.14 - 71.21%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes(these should all really be accounted for as switches)

etc. etc. The list goes on with what pory2 could do with this set, and it's defensive side is not too bad, just don't be hoping to tank a CC.

And that's the end of my request for Pory2 to A rank, if it's needed I'll elaborate on both of the types of Pory2 sets and how they are effective in this current UU metagame.

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

From what I gathered from

Porygon 2 For A-Rank

Look I'm not going to make this more complicated than it should: Porygon 2 is simply one of the metagame's best walls which is only really hindered by one thing: the *good* fighting types in UU. And it can actually take a hit from most of them bar something like LO Mienshao HJK or CB herra's CC(which for the most CB herra isn't even viable, scarf is the way to go. also I believe CB Herra barely manages the kill with CC after SR, someone correct me if I'm wrong). But despite it's one noticable flaw, it's still an amazing wall! not only can this thing go as a special wall but it can serve as a physical wall (which trust me the physicaly defensive set (not on smogon yet I don't think) is a monster to deal with as it para's and recovers in the front of all your sweepers) and a possible mixed wall! But for the most part i'm going to bring up the mixed wall AKA Smogon's "Defensive Duck" Set for it's defensive discussion.

Alright first lets dive into it's great job as a wall: It can wall most of the metagame's sweepers and well, it's up to you whether you para them and slowly chip them while recovering with twave + recover , or slowly stall with toxic+ recover, either way you'll annoy the crap out of the opposing sweeper and possibly take them down. And this thing can actually take hits from A LOT of fighting types, especially the standerd sets. (case and point: 252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 56.68 - 67.37% , 252 Atk Scrafty Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 49.73 - 58.28% etc) as you can see from those calcs, the standerd defensive duck set is no joke when it comes to taking physical hits, and of course as porygon users know, isn't a joke on the specially defensive side. Now that's half of my arguement for the defensive side since I feel like people are going to argue against me, which is fine but I don't feel like restating myself so I'll simply save the rest of my arguement on it's defensive side.

Now you maybe thinking: HURR PORY CAN NEVER GO OFFENSIVE SO IT LOSES TO WALLS LIKE EMPOLEN THAT CAN.(I know I mispelled Empoleoon, that was on purpose): Enter: Duck Tank/Offensive Porygon. This thing has so much going for it, not only does it simply demolish usual porygon2 stoppers but it allows this thing to have an actual offensive presance, now if you don't believe me lets look at some calcs (counting download):

252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Raikou: 136-162 (42.36 - 50.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes(standerd sub CM)​

+1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 260-306 (64.35 - 75.74%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes(CroCune)​

​

​

+1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mienshao: 279-328 (102.95 - 121.03%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scrafty: 163-193 (60.14 - 71.21%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes(these should all really be accounted for as switches)

etc. etc. The list goes on with what pory2 could do with this set, and it's defensive side is not too bad, just don't be hoping to tank a CC.

And that's the end of my request for Pory2 to A rank, if it's needed I'll elaborate on both of the types of Pory2 sets and how they are effective in this current UU metagame.

From what I gathered on your paragraph, I'd like to address a few things. And I'm gonna focus on the point that I don't think Porygon2 is really an A-Rank Pokemon. Granted, P2 is annoying and a nightmare for teams lacking either a Toxic user or a powerful fighting-type, a lot of your post seems really slanted against the very logic of why Porygon2 is in B-Rank in the first place. First off, you mentioned "Good" fighting types in UU. Cobalion isn't good? Virizion isn't good? The worst Porygon2 can do to a Cobalion is paralyze it with thunder wave while letting it either A) Setup an SD, B) Go for a Close Combat, or in the super duper rare case, C) It sets up a sub and starts spamming Calm Mind as you switch. Same deal with Virizion, Porygon2 can at least Ice Beam it, but it has access to Calm Mind and a high SpDef stat to make this somewhat negligible.

Two, CB Heracross rapes every variant of Porygon2 you can conjure up, no questions asked. Don't believe me?

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 324-384 (86.63 - 102.67%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO

^ The above calc is an exaggeration, as no one that I really know of has really popularized a full-on physically Defensive Porygon2 , which is exactly why it isn't on Smogon. But the point is, if Band heracross has a chance to OHKO a full physically defensive Porygon2 from full HP, then why try to ride so hard that it can deal with Fighting-types such as it? Sure, it can status Heracross. ...And possibly activate Guts. Some variants of Scarf Hera even run Guts on rare occasons, and add that to the fact that it just steps up however much damage it's already doing and basically Porygon2 is a dead duck.

You also mentioned it can wall most of the metagame's sweepers. While to some extent this is true, I'm not gonna take time to list every sweeper it can beat out, but I will say that it's not stopping things such as: SubCM raikou, Swords Dance Heracross (This is also a thing you seem to have forgotten the existence of), Specs Shaymin, etc. On top of that, if Porygon2 gets Toxic'd, it becomes incredibly easy to wear down over time and can't counter stall the opponent with Recover.

And as for the calcs on the offensive Porygon2 set, you chose some optimally convenient situations to post calcs for...First of all, the calc you did on Raikou was a Rash Raikou. Standard SubCM Raikou runs Timid, so it wouldn't have a lowered SpDef stat. Granted on top of that, no one would instantly throw Raikou at a Porygon2 unless they were predicting an electric move, in which case you also can't totally account for Spikes (and even Stealth Rock half the time) being up on your side of the field in every scenario. Raikou could take any move, get a +1 up, and go from there while you're just sitting there blowing Tri Attacks off. The calc you did on Mienshao, Reckless Hi Jump Kick would OHKO a Porygon2, and even moreso assuming the fact it's the Duck tank which has less bulk. You said to assume the opponent switched their Pokemon in on Porygon2 in each of those scenarios, meanwhile Suicune, and maybe Raikou, is possibly the closest most relevant switch-in of all the sets you listed, all of which aren't even incredibly bulky sweepers. (PS, no one would switch in Mienshao on a Porygon2. It dies to a stiff breeze, let alone most powerful hits. Why factor in a calc on it?) I feel you're really slanting your opinion of Porygon2 when you're overlooking some simple facts:

1. Like I said, Toxic ruins Porygon2. If it gets badly poisoned and you have no cleric support, P2 becomes more of a liability for the opponent to take advantage of, add that on top of hazards and the lack of passive recovery.
2. Did I mention the lack of passive recovery? Some calcs you mentioned Porygon2 is 2HKO'd by some things up above. Unless you're carrying Thunder Wave and spamming recover afterward, then you may as well just accept the fact Porygon2 is dying the subsequent turn because it's not gonna be healing off of that without using Recover and giving the opponent another free turn.
3. Porygon2's also highly susceptible to Trick. If it's stripped of its eviolite and even moreso given an item it can't even use, like Choice Scarf, Porygon2 is now deadweight, no questions asked. I mean, if someone tricks it a Specs, then maybe it can be a problem, but...It dies even more easily than it did before without its item. I won't even talk about how easy it is to play around when it's locked into one move.
4. It's not standing up to the fighting-types in this tier, whether you consider them or their sets relevant or not. Throwing a Porygon2 at any Heracross is just folly, whether you think it can take it on or not. Throwing it at a Mienshao, Scrafty, Cobalion, Virizion, or even a freaking Hitmontop half the time is gonna just end up costing you a Pokemon as a result. Play to its strengths rather than try to minimize its weaknesses.

All these reasons are exactly why Porygon2 is coolin' in B-Rank. I actually do love Porygon2 and it has potential to be a versatile Pokemon, but it's not more than what it already is.

 

[Plastic Moose]

I think that Cobalion is a very underrated poke. His defence is amazing, and his typing is unique (in UU) and very useful, giving him a 4x resistance to rock and a resistance to dragon. He is also very versatile, having SD sets, CM sets, or support sets (which are the best IMO) and you must first scout his set before you can counter it. It is a very reliable stealth rock setter, and it has a great speed tier as well, and with Volt Switch it can regain momentum easily. It's attacking stats, while not great, are definitely usable, and it can put a lot of hurt on a lot of common UU pokes. I'm not certain he's A rank worthy, but if the rankings were split into A+, A and A-, then I would definitely support moving Cobalion up to A-

 

[Manveru123]

Except Rock and Dragon moves are not very common in UU, except maybe Stone Edge which is usually used as a coverage move anyway. Fire and Fighting moves on the other hand are everywhere.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I have used Porygon2 quite a bit, and I think it's fine where it is. While Eviolite makes it a complete pain to take down (thinking about it now I can see why Dusclops and Porygon2 have overthrown their evolutions), it's suspectible to the common Fighting-types in the tier such as Mienshao and Heracross. There's also Bulk Up Scrafty which is a complete hard counter to Porygon2, and overall, as said before, the Fighting-types are problematic for P2 to thrive. It gets crippled quite insanely by Trick, and the other thing is that while Trace is cool to counter Chandelure, the thing is he might also run Flame Body over Flash Fire, so P2 is not always a foolproof answer to him. I have also found Toxic to be an issue, as stated before, which means it can get worn down incredibly easily unless you use it alongside Umbreon. B-Rank is where it belongs.

Cobalion is also fine in the B-Rank. It needs a boost to be able to pose a legitimate threat, and take into account that Scarf Hera/Shao/Victini etc. are everywhere which give Cobalion a little bit of trouble. This metagame is dominated by Fire and Fighting types (as previously stated), so that has to be kept in mind. Also consider that Cobalion also has some competition as a Fighting-type from both Heracross and Mienshao, which are generally better choices for most teams. It's still a pretty strong threat on its own though, and has a lot of potential to be a real threat, since after a boost it's incredibly vicious. But that only warrants B.

 

[PTJon7]

I'd say both are High B-Rank myself. Do you guys think we should just go for it and start sub ordering the ranks? I feel like if we do it it'll catch on, waiting for PK Gaming to approve it seems unnecessary since there's no reason he wouldn't.

 

[Monte Cristo]

From what I gathered from


From what I gathered on your paragraph, I'd like to address a few things. And I'm gonna focus on the point that I don't think Porygon2 is really an A-Rank Pokemon. Granted, P2 is annoying and a nightmare for teams lacking either a Toxic user or a powerful fighting-type, a lot of your post seems really slanted against the very logic of why Porygon2 is in B-Rank in the first place. First off, you mentioned "Good" fighting types in UU. Cobalion isn't good? Virizion isn't good? The worst Porygon2 can do to a Cobalion is paralyze it with thunder wave while letting it either A) Setup an SD, B) Go for a Close Combat, or in the super duper rare case, C) It sets up a sub and starts spamming Calm Mind as you switch. Same deal with Virizion, Porygon2 can at least Ice Beam it, but it has access to Calm Mind and a high SpDef stat to make this somewhat negligible.

Two, CB Heracross rapes every variant of Porygon2 you can conjure up, no questions asked. Don't believe me?

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 324-384 (86.63 - 102.67%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO

^ The above calc is an exaggeration, as no one that I really know of has really popularized a full-on physically Defensive Porygon2 , which is exactly why it isn't on Smogon. But the point is, if Band heracross has a chance to OHKO a full physically defensive Porygon2 from full HP, then why try to ride so hard that it can deal with Fighting-types such as it? Sure, it can status Heracross. ...And possibly activate Guts. Some variants of Scarf Hera even run Guts on rare occasons, and add that to the fact that it just steps up however much damage it's already doing and basically Porygon2 is a dead duck.

You also mentioned it can wall most of the metagame's sweepers. While to some extent this is true, I'm not gonna take time to list every sweeper it can beat out, but I will say that it's not stopping things such as: SubCM raikou, Swords Dance Heracross (This is also a thing you seem to have forgotten the existence of), Specs Shaymin, etc. On top of that, if Porygon2 gets Toxic'd, it becomes incredibly easy to wear down over time and can't counter stall the opponent with Recover.

And as for the calcs on the offensive Porygon2 set, you chose some optimally convenient situations to post calcs for...First of all, the calc you did on Raikou was a Rash Raikou. Standard SubCM Raikou runs Timid, so it wouldn't have a lowered SpDef stat. Granted on top of that, no one would instantly throw Raikou at a Porygon2 unless they were predicting an electric move, in which case you also can't totally account for Spikes (and even Stealth Rock half the time) being up on your side of the field in every scenario. Raikou could take any move, get a +1 up, and go from there while you're just sitting there blowing Tri Attacks off. The calc you did on Mienshao, Reckless Hi Jump Kick would OHKO a Porygon2, and even moreso assuming the fact it's the Duck tank which has less bulk. You said to assume the opponent switched their Pokemon in on Porygon2 in each of those scenarios, meanwhile Suicune, and maybe Raikou, is possibly the closest most relevant switch-in of all the sets you listed, all of which aren't even incredibly bulky sweepers. (PS, no one would switch in Mienshao on a Porygon2. It dies to a stiff breeze, let alone most powerful hits. Why factor in a calc on it?) I feel you're really slanting your opinion of Porygon2 when you're overlooking some simple facts:

1. Like I said, Toxic ruins Porygon2. If it gets badly poisoned and you have no cleric support, P2 becomes more of a liability for the opponent to take advantage of, add that on top of hazards and the lack of passive recovery.
2. Did I mention the lack of passive recovery? Some calcs you mentioned Porygon2 is 2HKO'd by some things up above. Unless you're carrying Thunder Wave and spamming recover afterward, then you may as well just accept the fact Porygon2 is dying the subsequent turn because it's not gonna be healing off of that without using Recover and giving the opponent another free turn.
3. Porygon2's also highly susceptible to Trick. If it's stripped of its eviolite and even moreso given an item it can't even use, like Choice Scarf, Porygon2 is now deadweight, no questions asked. I mean, if someone tricks it a Specs, then maybe it can be a problem, but...It dies even more easily than it did before without its item. I won't even talk about how easy it is to play around when it's locked into one move.
4. It's not standing up to the fighting-types in this tier, whether you consider them or their sets relevant or not. Throwing a Porygon2 at any Heracross is just folly, whether you think it can take it on or not. Throwing it at a Mienshao, Scrafty, Cobalion, Virizion, or even a freaking Hitmontop half the time is gonna just end up costing you a Pokemon as a result. Play to its strengths rather than try to minimize its weaknesses.

All these reasons are exactly why Porygon2 is coolin' in B-Rank. I actually do love Porygon2 and it has potential to be a versatile Pokemon, but it's not more than what it already is.

Alright I literally have 0 drive to continue this, you have beaten the points I have stated and I am no longer blind as to why porygon2 is B rank but I wanted to clear up one thing: you said " Standard SubCM Raikou runs Timid, so it wouldn't have a lowered SpDef stat" oh that might be a fault on my damage calc, as I used honko's damage calculator, which said -Sdef, that was a problem on my damage calculating, sorry.

And another thing "Scrafty, Cobalion, Virizion, or even a freaking Hitmontop" some calcs:
252 SpA Virizion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 52.94 - 62.56%
252 Atk Virizion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 44.91 - 53.47%
For Cobalion Read: Virizion
0 Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 36.89 - 43.85%
252 Atk Scrafty Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 49.73 - 58.28%
4 Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 22.45 - 26.2%

That is all, I wish to end my argument here and let pory2 stay at B, this was just to clear up some things.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Yeah, we should go ahead and start off the sub-ranks. I'll kick off the start with the S-Rank!

Before I get my explanations, here's a TL;DR of my list:

Top:

Froslass

Mienshao

Snorlax

Mid:

Kingdra

Raikou

Togekiss

Low:

Chandelure

Victini

Zapdos

Now for explanations:

Top S:

Froslass, Mienshao, and Snorlax are imo the absolute best three Pokemon in UU atm, and are major staples on a large number of UU teams. Froslass is the epitome of spiking in UU, and commands an entire playstyle in UU, that being hyper offense. Froslass has an amazing Speed tier, which allows her to quickly get the layers of Spikes up, and she has Taunt to stop anyone from getting their Spikes up while she gets her own up. Cursed Body only sweetens the deal, and if it activates and it's against a choiced Pokemon, you're guaranteed another layer. Froslass typically puts you at an advantage with D-Bond, getting a kill, so it's 5-5 with hazards up to your advantage. Mienshao takes the cake as the premier Fighting-type in UU, and is the best revenge killer, being able to hit absurdly hard with its STAB Hi Jump Kick with Reckless, while a Scarf allows it to outspeed everything in UU. It can also run U-turn and mixed to make it much harder to play around, and is certainly overall a threat to prepare for. It also has SubPass which has surprise factor and can be hard to play around in general. Snorlax is a downright constant in the Underused metagame, and is a staple on almost all teams for it can make a stop to many special attackers, while also dishing out some hard damage with CB, and has Pursuit too. It can run Curse+Rest as well as the special wall RestTalk+Whirlwind for other options, so it isn't entirely one dimensional.

Mid S:

Here, we have it. Kingdra, Raikou, and Togekiss certainly aren't as great as the big three, but are top threats to watch out for. Kingdra has an amazing STAB combo that only Empoleon and Ferroseed resist, while it has great offenses on both sides, so it's a pretty versatile Pokemon. It can run DD to be a great physical sweeper, but also RD Kingdra and Specs are both amazing. There are very few hard stops to it in the tier. Raikou is an amazing Pokemon, with SubCM being the pinnacle of special sweeping and can handily pull off a sweep; each HP can take down certain Ground-types available. It also can run Choiced sets and scout with Volt Switch. Togekiss is completely annoying to face, as it can paralyze targets while flinching them with Serene Grace Air Slashes; they also hit fairly hard. It can boost the power with NP as well. Togekiss is also absurdly bulky and can take a shit ton of hits, and with Roost, almost nothing can hope to take on this thing. It has only one genuine counter in Sub SpD Zapdos, and even that can be properly flinch haxed. Togekiss also provides amazing support to its team with the paralysis and Heal Bell that make it so annoying.

Low S:

Here, we have the lesser effective top tier threats. Chandelure, Zapdos, and Victini are a bit less effective than the Top and Mid S-Rankers, but are still ultimately top tier. Chandelure has a Special Attack rivaling legendary Pokemon, and with its incredible STAB combo in Fire Blast and Shadow Ball, it can wreck most of the tier bar Snorlax, Porygon2, and Houndoom, and even they get beaten by certain sets. It's fairly versatile, wallbreaking or revenge killing with Choice or simply sweeping with SubSplit. Its low Speed is what puts it in the lower end of S-Rank though. Victini is a powerful threat, with powerful STABs in Blue Flare and V-Create, and strong coverage options as well. It has the ability to use both attacking sides of the spectrum, and all of its sets have wildly different counters. Physical, Special, and Mixed Victini are all amazing and these make it hard to counter in general. Zapdos is a great Pokemon, with offensive sets packing immediate power while it has Roost to stay healthy. It also has defensive sets to make use of as well, and has overall great coverage. Its SubRoost set is also especially annoying. This is definitely an S threat, although the weaknesses and competition from Raikou compel me to put it in the lower end.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

I feel like kingdra should be top S honestly. It has like one safe switch in (empoleon) that can only at BEST phaze it out. Everything else is getting wrecked by its stab moves. All dragon dance sets are really hard to beat since kingdra only has one weakness and decent bulk allowing it to setup in the face of many things. Rain Dance sets are ridiculous powerful, even shit like snorlax are getting 2hkoed LOL. This is really a top threat and the best sweeper in the tier. Top S-Rank imo.

 

[PTJon7]

I agree with SBB, I honestly think Kingdra is Top S just for it's Rain Dance set alone, but its overall versatility pretty much assures it's spot at the top. I agree with all the other placements though, excecpt many Froslass for Mid-S just because I think it can be very easily dealt with if played against correctly.

 

[Lovelace]

I think Zapdos could be a contender for middle S. He doesn't necessarily have the "oh shit I might get entirely sweeped right now" factor of Kingdra or Raikou but its flexibility as a choice or non choiced attacker, boosting sweeper, physically, special or mixed wall, or even PP staller (I've been loving Sub Roost lately) makes it a really really useable Pokemon in a way incomparable to Raikou.

Conversely I don't think Mienshao should be ranked so high. It's a fairly one dimensional Pokemon with plenty of straight up counters and Hi Jump Kick is a huge liability. The fact is that it will miss. Even if you use it only 3 times a game you have more than a 27% chance to miss, nearly as much as Scald burning. This means that if you use it an average of 3 times a game you will likely miss at least 1 in ever 4 games. This is much worse than missing with almost any other move as not only does Mienshao take 50% life but it's so frail it's probably going to die to the Pokemon it just failed to kill. Even more important than those things is the fact that Mienshao is relied on for the most important tasks, as a revenge killer and as a win condition. 1/4 of the time it will fail, likely in that extremely vital role and probably cost you the game. Don't get me wrong, it's an immensely strong Pokemon and one of the top threats, but in use, from the perspective of a ladderer who aims for consistency*, I don't see it deserving the title of being one of the most viable.

My rankings would be:

Frosslass Snorlax Kingdra
Raikou Togekiss Zapdos
Mienshao Chandelure Victini

*To clarfiy I don't mean that I am personally a ladderer who aims for consistency, but that I that is the way we should look at this list.

 

[Aecor]

Conversely I don't think Mienshao should be ranked so high. It's a fairly one dimensional Pokemon with plenty of straight up counters and Hi Jump Kick is a huge liability. The fact is that it will miss. Even if you use it only 3 times a game you have more than a 27% chance to miss, nearly as much as Scald burning. This means that if you use it an average of 3 times a game you will likely miss at least 1 in ever 4 games. This is much worse than missing with almost any other move as not only does Mienshao take 50% life but it's so frail it's probably going to die to the Pokemon it just failed to kill. Even more important than those things is the fact that Mienshao is relied on for the most important tasks, as a revenge killer and as a win condition. 1/4 of the time it will fail, likely in that extremely vital role and probably cost you the game. Don't get me wrong, it's an immensely strong Pokemon and one of the top threats, but in use, from the perspective of a ladderer who aims for consistency*, I don't see it deserving the title of being one of the most viable.

THANK YOU. That's what I've been trying to say about Mienshao being "OP." It's too easy to read. The only good set, other than scarf, is like the SubBatonPass set, and that is easily played around with.

 

[Laga]

Conversely I don't think Mienshao should be ranked so high. It's a fairly one dimensional Pokemon with plenty of straight up counters and Hi Jump Kick is a huge liability. The fact is that it will miss.

I believe that Life Orb Mienshao is not all that bad, and LO can even go mixed, so calling it one dimensional is not really something I can agree with. Also, the scarf set might be it's best one right now, and HJK might miss, but the 10 percent risk is worth the reward, as it, combined with Stone Edge 2HKOs the entire S tier with correct prediction without fearing to be outsped by other than Scarf Raikou. Face it: Gligar is all you really have to completely shut it down, but I do agree that top S is very high for it.

But I also think Froslass is a bit overrated if we are putting it in top S. Sure Spiking + Spinblocking + Taunt + Offensive prowess, but when Swords Dance Weavile being such an anti-meta pokemon and Froslass is completely dead weight against it; and Snorlax too, I don't see it as top S.

BUT, Raikou is probably one of the more threatening pokemon in the UU metagame, with it's coverage, natural bulk, and versatility = Scarf, Specs and SubCM are all really frickin scary, so top S in my opinion.

Top: Raikou Snorlax Kingdra
Mid: Togekiss Mienshao Froslass
Low: Chandelure Victini Zapdos

This is my honest opinion on how I would see the S tier divided :]

 

[Diatom]

Here's my suggestions for S:

Top: Snorlax, Mienshao
Mid: Raikou, Froslass, Chandelure
Low: Victini, Zapdos, Kingdra

I've never used Togekiss so I can't comment on it.

Now for explanations:

Snorlax IMO is the best mon in the tier. This thing is basically a full stop to nearly every special attacker in the tier not named Virizion, not to mention that it can serve as a check to all the physical fire types as well due to Thick Fat. This shouldn't really need any more explanation.

Mienshao is the best revenge killer in the tier with scarf due to its speed, typing, and movepool. Fighting + rock coverage is insanely good. Again, pretty much a no-brainer IMO.

Raikou is certainly a top threat to prepare for, being able to sweep unprepared teams easily. The only reason why I don't think this should be top S is the prevalence of Snorlax, Rhgyperior, and Swampert, all of which can shut it down depending on the HP it runs. However, if you lack a solid check for this thing...you're gonna get swept. Mid S.

Froslass is arguably the most contentious mon right now in UU due to its ability to get spikes up reliably while also taking down a mon with Destiny Bond. However, the thing keeping this mon out of top S is how one-dimensional it is; it's outclassed at doing anything other than setting spikes. However, don't underestimate this mon, or you'll find 2 layers of spikes on your side of the field as well as a dead mon. Mid S.

Chandelure may seem out of place in mid S, but I truly believe that it is worthy of this rank, not for the common and mediocre scarf set, but for the specs set. There's no reliable switch into this mon, at all. You switch in your Snorlax expecting to tank whatever it throws at you, and BAM, you're hit by a Will-O-Wisp and are crippled for the rest of the match, or you take an HP fighting to the face and get 3HKOd while Chandy stays in on Pursuit. Yon can also get tricked the specs, which cripples it as well. Houndoom is a good switchin to most sets, but also gets obliterated by HP fighting. Porygon2 is perhaps the most reliable switchin as HP fighting doesn't do much and getting tricked a specs isn't terrible, but suddenly the Chandy is Flame Body and 2HKOs you with Fire Blast. Every other mon in UU is always 2HKOd by the specs set of Fire Blast/Shadow Ball/Energy Ball, even Umbreon. This isn't even taking into account that Chandy can run a subsplit set to surprise the other player and take out a few mons due to this. However, what's keeping Chandy out of top S is its single glaring flaw: its speed, while good enough to outspeed every wall bar max speed Suicune, also leaves it outsped by most offensive pokemon, and although most cannot OHKO, they can limit it to a single KO a match sometimes. However, when everything is added up, I believe that Chandy deserves mid S.

Victini is a mon that is so high in the ranks due to its unpredictability. If we were judging it based solely on the physical sets, I would say it's only A-rank due to its multiple checks and counters. However, the possibility that your Swampert or Rhyperior switchin gets destroyed by Grass Knot is what pushes Victini into S, as nothing is absolutely safe. However, what keeps it out of mid S are its secondary psychic typing, which leaves it vulnerable to stuff like Weavile and Cofagrigus, which can take advantage of it after it has used a V-Create, and once the special set has been revealed and you get that surprise KO, it's honestly pretty inferior to Chandelure. Low S here.

Zapdos, while not having the raw power or bulk of some other mons, has just the right combination of them, as well as the typing to make a great special tank that can defeat most special attackers bar stuff like Chandelure. Low S.

Kingdra may seem a little out of place in the low S tier, but I've always found it incredibly underwhelming, both when I use it and when I play against it; it rarely manages to get more than a single KO against me. I find that the DD sets are quite lacking in power; although Outrage is cool, Waterfall has low power and Kingdra's attack and speed themselves are quite lacking in comparison to other S-rank threats. The special sets IMO are more threatening and what push it into S-rank, but after a Draco meteor, Hydro Pump will be pretty weak, even in the rain, and mons can then setup on it, not to mention that outside of rain special Kingdra needs a turn to setup Rain Dance to be effective, which can be taken advantage of. I'll expand more if I need to, but I think this is low S.

 

[Lovelace]

I believe that Life Orb Mienshao is not all that bad, and LO can even go mixed, so calling it one dimensional is not really something I can agree with. Also, the scarf set might be it's best one right now, and HJK might miss, but the 10 percent risk is worth the reward, as it, combined with Stone Edge 2HKOs the entire S tier with correct prediction without fearing to be outsped by other than Scarf Raikou. Face it: Gligar is all you really have to completely shut it down, but I do agree that top S is very high for it.

I wasn't even thinking of Gligar but rather mons like Slowbro, Cofagrigus and Amoongus or even Golurk and Nidoqueen. Gligar isn't even a good answer with the threat of HP Ice. Also, even if HJK never misses randomly it's still a liability as you can't safely use it when ghosts are around and you can get checked my literally anything that might carry Protect. One of the main reasons I don't use Mienshao much is that it takes up a slot as a fighting mon but has trouble breaking through Umbreon of all things. In fact I've seen RMTs where people have Protect on random stuff like P2 just to hate on Mienshao. Though I do think there may be a certain amount of unexplored potential in having more heavily mixed Mienshaos- have you seen anyone having much success with maybe like a LO Mienshao with Grass Knot?

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Mienshao is not consistent enough for top-s rank. Its definitely s-rank but top is really pushing it. When your main moves both have a chance to miss and you cant afford that at all with nonexistant bulk you know youre not going to be succesful in every match. Everytime i try to revenge kill something with mienshao im always worried about a miss and that miss can easily cost me the game. Seriously thats not how a top s-rank mon should play. Victini/kingdra/chandelure/snorlax are top s-rank easily. Victini can just use v-create, switch out and use it again later while u-turning out of predicted swampert/rhyperior switch ins. Mixed sets can easily lure in and beat physical walls with no problem and can still abuse v-create to feign a physical set. Kingdra has no safe switch ins bar empoleon which can only at best phaze it away, access to rain dance+swift swim for special sets and dragon dance for physical ones making it unpredictable, water/dragon typing and ridiculous powerful stab moves. Chandelure boasts insane power and is pretty much impossible to know what set youre facing until its too late. Scarf, specs and subsplit are all ridiculous hard to deal with. Scarf can revenge threats easily, specs has simply no safe switch ins and often forces you to sack something for it and subsplit can completely turn a match in the chandelure use favor. Snorlax is bulk af, can reliably run defensive and offensive sets with ease and completely stops most special attackers. Curse can often end the game once powerful fighting types and phazers are removed. Raikou for mid s since it has problems coming in with that mediocre physical bulk and lack of resistances and has problems with anything that is immune/resistant to electric due to its horrible movepool that forces it to run hidden power (which doenst cover everything). Froslass could go top or mid i dont really know atm. Zapdos is definitely low s-rank. There inst anything really special about it. Its just a good mon that hits hard, is bulk and has good speed.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I'm going to defend my case for Mienshao to be Top S. The thing about it is that it's the absolute best revenge killer in UU by far; when you look at its 105 Speed, with a Jolly Nature it can outspeed pretty much everything in the metagame, while its 125 Attack is amazing and allows it to hit really hard. A Reckless boosted Hi Jump Kick is so powerful that it KO's 4 HP Flygon with no prior damage; this means Mienshao is certainly a force to be reckoned with. HJK+Stone Edge is awesome coverage, and Hi Jump Kick missing basically will only happen as much as say, an Ice Beam freezing your opponent, and such. And one mustn't overlook one of Mienshao's best assets that make it very hard to play around: U-turn. This means that while there are things that wall Mienshao such as Cofagrigus, Nidoqueen, and Amoonguss, Mienshao's high Speed allows it to quickly scout with U-turn, and this makes it a great scout to make common switch-ins attracted where you can send in a teammate to grab free opportunities to get going. Mienshao is highly unique thanks to this move, since it's the only viable (Read; viable) Fighting-type with this move, and thus it's not as easy to play around as say, Heracross. There's also SubPass Mienshao, which is rather hard to play around since Mienshao can force switches, and you can pass Subs to dangerous things like Krookodile and Shaymin and you're pretty much golden. Mixed Mienshao is a real threat, and also what makes Mienshao so good; you can slap on something like HP Ice or Grass Knot to nab switch-ins such as Slowbro and Gligar (the latter sucks but people use it). It's not super one dimensional either, so yeah.

Also, Top S=/=OP. Something can be Top S-Rank, but not necessarily overpowering. Top S merely means they're the absolute best of the best.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

I still stand by my point specially backed by what lovelace said:
''Conversely I don't think Mienshao should be ranked so high. It's a fairly one dimensional Pokemon with plenty of straight up counters and Hi Jump Kick is a huge liability. The fact is that it will miss. Even if you use it only 3 times a game you have more than a 27% chance to miss, nearly as much as Scald burning. This means that if you use it an average of 3 times a game you will likely miss at least 1 in ever 4 games.''
Its true, the chances of missing in one hit are low but considering hi jump kick is your main revenge kill move you will use it a lot and the chances increase drastically. The fact is mienshao simply cant afford to miss, not just because of the 50% recoil but because its too frail to tank any hit. Its simply not consistent enough to be relied upon all the time.

 

[KM]

Um......why is everyone putting Victini in Low S... in my opinion it's probably the best pokemon in the entire fucking tier at the moment. It fits on literally every single type of team in the metagame in some capacity or other.

Bulky Offense/Trick Room:
-An absolute god in Trick Room, being fully invested in HP makes it hard to OHKO and nothing can survive its onslaught after enough weakening. Amazing wallbreaker and sweeper.

Hyper Offense/Volt Turn:
- One of the best scarfers/banders, access to u-turn and very threatening stab and coverage.

Freaking stall:
- Banded sets work as amazing wallbreakers to get things out of the way, keeps hazards off the field by threatening V-Create on Bronzong, Empoleon, Cobalion, Grass Knot for Pert/Perior.

Baton pass teams:
- Possibly one of the best recipients in the entire game for Quiver Dances or Shell Smashes as a mixed sweeper. Can hit V-Create without having to worry about losing speed if smashed, can abuse stored power to kill everything, gets amazing coverage.

Quite honestly, I decided to replace a sableye with a BandTini on my hail semi-stall team. This is a team that now has 4 SR weaknesses, and I got a 69-9 (7 really, I d/ced on two) ranking on the ladder to be able to vote for the suspect test. It fits on nearly every team in the game and is just ridiculously threatening because it can 2HKO any single wall in the entire game. Umbreon dies to a V-Create from band after some hazards, Snorlax dies to 2 V-Creates from band, Bulky Waters take 60-80+% from Bolt Strike, Grass Knot can slaughter Rhyperior/Swampert even with max special investment, etc, etc. It's not like Arcanine, where you can just switch in a chandelure and fear nothing but, like, Bolt Strike.

Besides all this, it has amazing bulk for an offensive poke and an ability that lets it run moves that would otherwise fuck it over lots of times (Bolt Strike, Blue Flare, Focus Blast, Thunder). Victini is so insanely good that it should be in at least the middle tier of the S-Rank if not the top tier. It has a ton of actually really good - but rarely used - support moves due to how many options it already has; not only can it sweep in Trick Room but it can also set it up for itself. It also gets a lot of random options like Substitute, Toxic, Trick Flame Orb, just things that can be used for complete shock value higher up on the ladder.

I mean, think about it. Togekiss is in mid S, and Victini is in low S. When I see a Togekiss come into the field, I know what to switch to in order to hard counter 95% of its sets. But a Victini? All you can really do against a Victini in the right hands is either sacrifice things or just nail your predictions so correctly (I once managed to predict and absorb a V-create, a Bolt Strike, and a Zen Headbutt all in a row, by pure luck) that you manage to make it switch in 5 times with SR up and just die.

Victini for Top/Mid S-Rank. It's being suspected, for fuck's sake.

 

[PTJon7]

After taking all the discussion into account I think I'd place S-Tier as:

Top: Snorlax, Mienshao, Kingdra
Mid: Froslass, Victini, Raikou, Togekiss
Low: Zapdos, Chandelure

Snorlax needs no explanation, everyone seems to be in agreement that it is definitely Top S. Mienshao is the best Scarf user and revenge killer in the tier, I'm not really buying all this "HJK misses there fore Mienshao isn't good" stuff, its a 10% chance and even with that Mienshao is excellent at what it does. Kingdra is one of the most deadly and versatile sweepers in UU, only Empoleon is a true counter to it. The Rain Dance set can completely turn the tables of a match and the Dragon Dance set can be extremely deadly after getting a boost or two.

Kitten's stance on Victini has me convinced that it deserves Mid S, and I don't really think Froslass is Top S as I've said before.

 

[Plastic Moose]

I'm just wondering, why is Togekiss S rank? What makes it so good? I don't really see what it has over other bulky normal and flying types, but I'm really new to the tier so I'm probably wrong.

 

[TPO3]

I'm just wondering, why is Togekiss S rank? What makes it so good? I don't really see what it has over other bulky normal and flying types, but I'm really new to the tier so I'm probably wrong.

Togekiss has a couple of advantages that other Flying-types don't really have. The most notable as you pointed out is its bulk- very few Flying-types in the tier posess the kind of bulk Togekiss has. Zapdos is the only one that really comes close. Gligar is very frail on the special side, and Crobat just lacks the all-around bulk. Togekiss's normal typing also makes it immune to Ghost, which makes it a great counter to Cofagrigus, as well as a decent Chandelure check. What really seperates Togekiss though is the fact that it takes slow, bulky cores of pokemon, and just breaks them in half over its knee. Thanks to its bulk, it can set up Nasty Plot on a multitude of pokemon. (Multitude is not an understatement- think any bulky water, Roserade, Umbreon, Cofagrigus, and more.) It can then abuse Serene Grace and Air Slash to just flinch things to death. This becomes especially painful if you can add Paralysis to the mix, either with a partner (like Cresselia) or even just with Togekiss itself. A lot of Togekiss's "counters" like Porygon2 can just be flinched to death. Stall teams also have big problems with Togekiss as you can use Heal Bell either on Togekiss itself, or through a teammate (Umbreon), which makes you impervious to any status, like Toxic.

 

[ElectivireRocks]

I'm really confused at these "high/mid/low S-rank" subcategories.
Wouldn't it makes more sense to rename "high S-rank" just "S rank" and put the "mid/low S-rank" mons in A+ and A, respectively (and of course shift the current A-rank mon in a lower rank if necessary)?

Remember the "if everything is top tier then nothing is" rule.
S-rank should really be limited to 4-5 mons at most in order to be taken seriously.

 

[Kentucky Fried Colonel]

I'm really confused at these "high/mid/low S-rank" subcategories.
Wouldn't it makes more sense to rename "high S-rank" just "S rank" and put the "mid/low S-rank" mons in A+ and A, respectively (and of course shift the current A-rank mon in a lower rank if necessary)?

Remember the "if everything is top tier then nothing is" rule.
S-rank should really be limited to 4-5 mons at most in order to be taken seriously.

That's the problem though, there are just so many good pokemon that thrive in the current meta. The only mons that I could see justifiably being taken out of S-Rank are Chandelure and (In my opinion) Froslass. Maybe Zapdos, but that's really pushing it due to the fact that it can play many roles very well, which if you look at S-Rank, almost every mon can do (another reason I think Froslass is overrated). Snorlax can be used as a bulky support mon, choice bander, or run it's curse lax set. Raikou can run specs, calm mind, or even the rare scarf set. Mienshao is the best scarfer, can run a solid sub baton pass set or be a mixed wall breaker. Victini can run band scarf or mixed, Kingdra can run specially based rain sweeper, chesto rest boost or specs and don't even get me started on the number of sets Togekiss can run. That's pretty much the key to UU right now, be unpredictable. This also applies to other mons that have seen good sucess in UU like Mew and Cofagrigus. There are many mons in all the metas that can run a number of sets viably, but few that can run a number of sets effectivly.