Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]

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ghostceus imo deserves A+, amazing sweeper. +2 shadow force just kills everything, and it's really bulky and has priority, making it difficult for scarfers to revenge kill it; ditto also cannot revenge it (unless if it's running shadow claw). ghost is also an amazing offense typing this gen, with only dark and normal being able to switch-in, and both being destroyed by a +2 brick break. its only counter is yveltal really.

it obv faces competition from normal arceus (ekiller), but i think it's better than it in that it's much stronger. when you realize that that a +2 shadow force hits as hard as a +4 silk scarf extremespeed, you know why ekiller has a much tougher time breaking through walls like ferrothorn, giratina or even groudon, while ghostceus does at least 80% to them after a boost. also, ghostceus defeats normal arceus 1 on 1 with a +2 brick break.
 
Why are you guys comparing ghostceus to ekiller lol. Ghostceus is not one dimensional, and can run many different sets unlike ekiller. If you think that sd ghostceus is the only set that it offers, then you've missing out on many other qualities that ghostceus brings to the table. Like I've stated in previous post, it can runs: CM, support, CM+support, SD, and potentially more sets (anti lead, etc). Also, I've seen dumb stuff like "I'd only give ghostceus S if ekiller got S too". We're judging ghostceus by its merits, not by other mons' merits. Not to mention, ghostceus blows ekiller out of the water in terms of viability due to the sheer versatility that ghostceus brings to the table.

And, it's true that yveltal and darkrai (to an extent) gives ghostceus hell, but that's literally the only con for using ghostceus. I'm still not dissuaded by the fact that a mon have 1 counter makes it not a S rank material. IDK, it seems a bit silly, since most people are disagreeing with ghostceus for S just because of yveltal, but I don't see anything in the definition for S that explicitly say that a mon cant get S if it have counter.
 
If people are using the GhostCeus is countered by Yveltal argument then we should pull Kyogre out of S-Rank because it's hard countered by Palkia.

In other words, not a valid argument people.

Now on the matter of GhostCeus, there are many people who have stated why it deserves to be S-Rank, and what it is capable of doing. I agree, it has the same stats as other Arceus Forms yes, but with it's typing and coverage it makes for one hell of a threat with massive diversity. SD GhostCeus can majorly dent anything and is hard to stop once it starts. Yes, Yveltal can counter GhostCeus, but it can run a coverage move like Stone Edge (Thinking of the SD set). The SupportCeus set, while being similar to every other SupportCeus, boats a strong Ghost type resisting Fighting and Normal which automatically hurts any Normal Mon like Kang, or Blaziken who resorts to fire type attacks (which admittedly hurts, but my point is GhostCeus's typing). And then it has the option of running Calm Mind, and even functioning on weather teams without restriction.

GhostCeus is an S-Rank pokemon. Plain and Simple, unlike the mon itself.
 
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I think chansey should be moved up to C or B rank.
D rank definition: Reserved for Pokemon with very little offensive or defensive capability. Barely viable, they are very rarely real considerations for specific roles. Reliant on almost the full team for support while still affected by some of their flaws. They may even suffer from massive amounts of opportunity cost to the point of being outright outclassed.

IMO chansey has more than 'very little defensive capability' and is not really that specific (otherwise blissey would be D as well). It's not reliant on 'almost the full team', and it's not really outclassed by anything. It has more bulk than blissey which differentiates it and gives it an advantage against almost everything except really weak attacks, knock off and trappers.
 

Aragorn the King

Literally a duck
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I think chansey should be moved up to C or B rank.
D rank definition: Reserved for Pokemon with very little offensive or defensive capability. Barely viable, they are very rarely real considerations for specific roles. Reliant on almost the full team for support while still affected by some of their flaws. They may even suffer from massive amounts of opportunity cost to the point of being outright outclassed.

IMO chansey has more than 'very little defensive capability' and is not really that specific (otherwise blissey would be D as well). It's not reliant on 'almost the full team', and it's not really outclassed by anything. It has more bulk than blissey which differentiates it and gives it an advantage against almost everything except really weak attacks, knock off and trappers.
It's 100% outclassed by Blissey in Ubers, as it can't escape Shadow Tag.
 
I think chansey should be moved up to C or B rank.
D rank definition: Reserved for Pokemon with very little offensive or defensive capability. Barely viable, they are very rarely real considerations for specific roles. Reliant on almost the full team for support while still affected by some of their flaws. They may even suffer from massive amounts of opportunity cost to the point of being outright outclassed.

IMO chansey has more than 'very little defensive capability' and is not really that specific (otherwise blissey would be D as well). It's not reliant on 'almost the full team', and it's not really outclassed by anything. It has more bulk than blissey which differentiates it and gives it an advantage against almost everything except really weak attacks, knock off and trappers.
*cough* Mega Gengar *cough*

No seriously, Chansey is an extreme case of what is known as "MegaGar bait". Once Gengar can switch in, Mega Evolve, and cripple with Taunt, there is absolutely nothing that Chansey can do. At all. It is basically a total and complete deadweight against one of the most common support Pokemon in Ubers period. Blissey can run Shed Shell to escape Shadow Tag, so in a nice taste of irony, it is BLISSEY that once again outclasses its younger sister.
 
so how is chansey outclassed by blissey?
Chansey's pros:
higher defenses allowing it to tank e.g. specs water spouts from kyogre better, and allowing to act as a mixed wall
lack of lefties doesn't matter in the comparison cause bliss won't be using them either
cons:
mega gengar weakness obviously
inability to use special attacks
a little weaker to knock off
(imo last two cons are mostly irrelevant)
imo chansey has its higher defenses to differentiate it and blissey is the one that is mostly outclassed with its only advantage being the mega gengar matchup
 

Aragorn the King

Literally a duck
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so how is chansey outclassed by blissey?
Chansey's pros:
higher defenses allowing it to tank e.g. specs water spouts from kyogre better, and allowing to act as a mixed wall
lack of lefties doesn't matter in the comparison cause bliss won't be using them either
cons:
mega gengar weakness obviously
inability to use special attacks
a little weaker to knock off
(imo last two cons are mostly irrelevant)
imo chansey has its higher defenses to differentiate it and blissey is the one that is mostly outclassed with its only advantage being the mega gengar matchup
But mega gengar is so common. Having a pokemon on your team that cannot fight back, at all, is terrible.
 

dingbat

snek
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I've used offensive Ghostceus and although it faces competition with Arceus-Normal, it can still punch massive holes through opposing teams, 2HKOing most of the tier with an unboosted Shadow Force, and Normal-types will take significant damage with Brick Break, especially if Ghostceus has a SD boost. However, offense is not the only thing that Ghostceus brings to the table -- it has a plethora of support moves like Will-o-Wisp and Defog, it has Recover to boost its longevity in battle, and heck, it can even run a Special set with Calm Mind and Judgement. All of that bundled together with its superior typing in comparison to its other forms IMO should warrant an A+ on this thing.

In other news, Ditto still needs to be ranked as I mentioned a couple of pages ago. Around C-Rank will do, as it is definitely a viable option and has the niche of flat out copying the opponent plus its stat changes, potentially causing switch-outs, revenge kills, or in some cases, even sweeping up of teams. However, its effectiveness in battle is ultimately situational and because Ditto almost always runs a Choice Scarf, it can be easily worked around, and in some cases, it can even become a huge liability as choosing the wrong move can result in giving opponents free turns to wreak potential havoc on your team.
 

Haruno

Skadi :)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
so how is chansey outclassed by blissey?
Chansey's pros:
higher defenses allowing it to tank e.g. specs water spouts from kyogre better, and allowing to act as a mixed wall
lack of lefties doesn't matter in the comparison cause bliss won't be using them either
cons:
mega gengar weakness obviously
inability to use special attacks
a little weaker to knock off
(imo last two cons are mostly irrelevant)
imo chansey has its higher defenses to differentiate it and blissey is the one that is mostly outclassed with its only advantage being the mega gengar matchup
No shed shell instantly makes it worse than blissey in the not so unlikely scenario you're against a mega gengar (unless you run psychic which I've done before lol) chansey is better IF the opponent doesn't have a mega gengar but if they do run gengar than chansey is simply one free mon that gengar gets a ko on.


Which is funny too because the ubers chat was laughing at how blim used shed shell blissey in one of his first spl games since we all thougt it was an incredibly stupid idea at the time, Lo and behold it is now considered the only viable blissey set
 

Minority

Numquam Vincar
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so how is chansey outclassed by blissey?
Chansey's pros:
higher defenses allowing it to tank e.g. specs water spouts from kyogre better, and allowing to act as a mixed wall
lack of lefties doesn't matter in the comparison cause bliss won't be using them either
cons:
mega gengar weakness obviously
inability to use special attacks
a little weaker to knock off
(imo last two cons are mostly irrelevant)
imo chansey has its higher defenses to differentiate it and blissey is the one that is mostly outclassed with its only advantage being the mega gengar matchup
Fun fact: Blissey CAN run Lefties so long as it runs Flamethrower. Granted Seismic Toss is usually better which is why Shed Shell is more typically used. The weakness to Knock Off that Chansey has is far from irrelevant, I've murdered so many Chansey(s) with Knock Off, and even more with Mega Gengar. The ability to use special attacks also gives Blissey a slightly wider, albeit usually useless advantage over Chansey letting you actually surprise your opponents by dropping moves like Flamethrower and Ice Beam. Blissey actually has more physical bulk than most people realize, and at 252 Def investment it usually survives a CB Ho-Oh Brave Bird. In addition I've been testing Counter on Blissey once Blue Jay suggested it, and its actually not bad if you run specific support as it escapes the OHKO from many physical nukes. Blissey takes a Specs Spout just as well as Chansey: both get 2HKOed on their typical spreads so this is an irrelevant reason to run Chansey over Blissey. Like many people have already mentioned, Chansey only has the advantage over Blissey when the opponent doesn't have a Mega Gengar or Knock Off, however at a higher level of play both of these are quite common (Mega Gengar actually isn't that common on the ladder). The only advantage Chansey truly has over Blissey is the ability to wall weaker physical threats. Chansey should actually probably be moved to rank E just to demonstrate to new players that Blissey is superior.
 
Nah guys, let's move up Chansey because Kel9901 thinks not having Leftovers because it doesn't need them a good thing. Same goes for the guy who thinks SD Ghostceus > CM.

IMO Deoxys-S and Lugia are way too high. Deoxys-S literally lost every niche thanks to Defog. It just can't run an offensive set and it's oretty easy to Defog on, and sure you can Taunt a support Arceus or something but you can't do anything back so you just end up losing anyway. Lugia is bad, don't think I need to explain much about that, since everything is running Toxic etc
 
Yeah, I didn't explain that well at all. Deo-Smis definitely not worth A, it's good but not as good as mons like Ho-Oh. Seriously though screw Lugia it's the most annoying thing ever if you don't have Toxic
 
But you can't compair a Deoxys-S with an Ho Oh. They have different jobs to do for the team. Deoxys-S' job is to set up Hazards. Can you Name me a pokemon which can do the same as fast as Deo-S? Probably not. It doesn't need that much support like Pokémons like Hooh. It is just my opinion but Deoxys-S rank is Fine at A.
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
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Alright, here are my opinions on Dialga and Ghostceus:

Dialga should stay A Rank. Dialga is excellent at setting up SR. In fact, it's one of the best users of the move, if not THE best. But I don't think that in itself is enough to warrant a promotion. Although Dialga's defensive qualities are awesome, they are often somewhat overstated. While Dialga softchecks a lot of Pokemon, it's not really an outright counter to anything either aside from Eleceus. As a Zekrom check it is somewhat limited since Zekrom can just Volt Switch to a Ground-type to punish the opponent for sending it in. It can also only really come in on Palkia once since Dialga is neutral to Dragon and 100/100 special bulk only carries it so far. Relying on Dialga as a Kyogre check is also risky - what if that Kyogre you thought was Scarfed is actually Specs or Specially Defensive? Although the fact Dialga can even check these Pokemon at all is amazing, it's important to remember that it is only a softcheck - and it will be worn down quickly. Dialga is also unable to check Xerneas or Yveltal that well which is annoying since they are extremely prominent threats in the metagame, and a lot of things Dialga was good at checking in the past (Genesect and weather sweepers) see far less usage nowadays.

Dialga is also rather easy to punish for most offensive/balanced teams given the infestation of Ground-types and strong Mega Fighting-types like Blaziken, Mewtwo-X, and Lucario in the metagame. While Groudon usage has fallen a bit as someone pointed out earlier, Landorus-T has risen to take its place, and Gliscor/Groundceus/Excadrill are ofc still around. Given the prevalence of Zekrom, having a Ground-type on the team is more important than ever, which constrains Dialga's ability to do work.

All things considered, Dialga is an excellent Pokemon and totally deserves A rank, but its not quite A+ level imo.

I am fine with moving Ghostceus to A+ Rank. A lot of people forget that Ghostceus received two important buffs in Generation 6. The first is the fact that Steel-types lost their resistance to Ghost, which makes Ghostceus a lot more potent offensively. The second is that Ghostceus is immune to Shadow Tag, making it an excellent and often underrated support Arceus forme that can check Extremekiller (check to whom are in short supply), Mewtwo, and somewhat Blaziken (Mega Flare Blitz still 2HKOes without rain support), all of whom are major metagame threats, without fear of Mega Gengar. It can also swap in against threats such as Dialga and Palkia somewhat comfortably since they often cannot hit Ghostceus for super-effective damage. Ghostceus is one of the most versatile and threatening Arceus formes in the game, able to pull off CM, SD, support and even hybrid sweeper/support sets to great effect.

So why shouldn't it be S-rank? Simply put, there are also a lot of metagame changes that have negatively affected Arceus-Ghost, enough to where it is no longer an S-rank metagame defining force. Simply put, a lot of Ghostceus checks are better than they used to be. Kyogre thrives in a metagame without Lati@s (which is also a very important mon Ghostceus could check!), and most Ghostceus sets save SD struggle hard against it. Defog, although it has helped Ghostceus since it learns it, has also harmed it since it makes the spinblocking niche much less important and makes Ho-Oh, an old Ghostceus check, much more of a threat. Compound this with the weakness to Darkrai, a very powerful new offensive check in Yveltal (which owns every single Ghostceus variant) and the extremely Toxic/Wisp heavy metagame in this generation and Ghostceus has a lot less wriggle room than it did before. It is important to remember that Dark-types are also a lot more common than they used to be since they were buffed as well.

Yveltal in particular is a huge menace. Normally, type-neutral or CM Arceus formes like Electric, Water, Dark, or Fairy can help considerably against checking this thing. Ghostceus is countered by it.

"But can't Ghostceus just use Thunder to break Ho-Oh, Kyogre, and Yveltal?" Not without giving up Fighting coverage or WoW, thus costing it its ability to check EKiller! This also shows that, although Steels were nerfed, Ghostceus can't afford to give up the Fighting attack or WoW that helped it combat those guys since otherwise it fails in checking EKiller (once of the main reasons to use Ghostceus in the first place).

"But don't other S rank mons like Kyogre and Xerneas have hard checks?" True - Kyogre can't do much to Gastrodon and Xerneas struggles against Aegislash. On the other hand, Gastrodon and Aegislash pretty much do nothing outside of checking those Pokemon and Toxicing stuff. Yveltal is a common A+ rank offensive threat that is extraordinarily menacing on its own and used for many other reasons besides checking Ghostceus. It is also rather hard to get rid of because of 2 possible recovery methods, a lack of solid lures for it (other than like Ice Beam Mewtwo), and the threat of it smashing your face in.

So in short, while Ghostceus is an excellent and often underrated Pokemon, it suffers from a lot of its checks being better, a new check-going-on-counter existing in Yveltal, and more competition from other Arceus formes (EKiller is better this gen, other Arc-types that can check stuff Ghostceus struggles against are in higher demand). It is still a huge threat every team should prepare, but it is no longer a metagame defining force in the way Kyogre, Xerneas, and the other S-Rank Pokemon are.

I hope this is clear, its a bit tl;dr lol.
 
I'm proposing what may be a controversial change, but I've had a few people agree with me and I might as well see what the reaction is towards it.

Mewtwo: S --------> A+ Mewtwo is a powerful threat, don't get me wrong, but it's power doesn't seem enough to merit a place in S rank. Once it loses it's unpredictability by mega evolving it's just another Pokemon. It's typing is rather shitty, its bulk is rather mediocre and it has trouble OHKOing just about everything unless its MMX and is actually hitting for SE damage. The different formes can fit multiple roles but they just don't seem to be defining enough to keep it in S rank. The presence of Yveltal and rise of Ghostceus means that the metagame is beginning to work against it, limiting it even more. Its strapped for moveslots to hit everything hard while also lacking the moveslots to either set up, or recover most of the time. Mewtwo is a powerful threat but in my opinion its just not THAT good for S rank.

please be gentle
 

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
I disagree with you Nayrz.
Of all the S rank mons it is probably the most difficult to counter on stall for lack of a true hard counter. Whereas with Ogre you run palk/gast, xern you run lke aegi/poisonceus, gengar u can just about say ttar is a hard counter (ok maybe this is better than mewtwo) in stall there is no hard counter. Given, it can't run every set at once, but I find you usually need something like a blanket wall + a dark type just to have a reasonable chance vs it (I enjoy lugia+ttar for a variety of reasons). Furthermore it has an amazing base speed that non-scarfed or speed boosting mons on offensive playstyes seriously dislike it as it is very quick whilst also being impressively powerful. Also the unpredictability can be left till later-game, forcing the opponent to essentiall gamble on which form it is if you play well enough (e.g. send in ho-oh vs something baity, force them to send in either ttar/lugia; pair w/ mewtwo and you're forcing them to choose whether or not it's gonna be mewtwo X etc. [and ho-oh itself imo should be ranked higher it is really fucking scary])
 

Blue Jay

The notorious Good Wife
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Just to make a small addition to Fireburn's excellent post, what a lot of people suggesting (often suboptimal) coverage moves to bypass Yveltal with Ghost Arceus are forgetting is how devastating Sucker Punch is for Ghost Arceus. Swords Dance sets, with no bulk investment and no recovery, stand a very high chance of being OHKOed by it after a little prior damage, such as a switch into Stealth Rock. This means that without running a very weak Extremespeed that provides no coverage, these sets have no way of bypassing even a very weakened Yveltal. And if they do run Extremespeed, beating Yveltal is still down to prediction unless it's significantly weakened. Calm Mind sets fare a little better due to greater bulk and space for Recovery, but still suffer enormous damage and must be at very high HP to survive a Sucker Punch, and even if they do they will be so weakened that any revenge killer or priority will force them out in an extremely weakened state.

That said, I too feel that Ghost Arceus could well be A+ rank.
 
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i have a quick question relating to that statement,
is a rise of a certain pokemon a good enough reason to degrade a pokemons ranking?

i mean, say that in the case of kyogre, a rank s mon, still a good mon in this meta; if say Gastrodon + Grassceus were to rise very, very significantly in usage, is that grounds enough to change Kyogres rank, or not?

Same with like the case of Deo-S, say Magic Bouncers were to become common once again, would that merit moving Deoxys-S to a lower rank?

Or is that stuff like that not considered when giving a pokemon a rank? just curious
From what I've noticed in the OU rankings (namely victory road) many pokemon have changed ranking due to how well the meta adapts to them. While something like that is very slowly done in Ubers (the meta adapting i mean), I'd say its possible.
 

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
With respect to that I think Scizor needs to drop to at least A- Rank if not below. With respect to meta adaption, the current common coverage on the 2 pokemon it is used primarily to check - ekiller and xerneas - both of them can beat it with a relatively common coverage move. Its other utility doesn't otherwise allow it to shine. Don't think I have to say too much, but it is definitely a lot worse than we thought it was in early days.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
so how is chansey outclassed by blissey?
Chansey's pros:
higher defenses allowing it to tank e.g. specs water spouts from kyogre better, and allowing to act as a mixed wall
lack of lefties doesn't matter in the comparison cause bliss won't be using them either
cons:
mega gengar weakness obviously
inability to use special attacks
a little weaker to knock off
(imo last two cons are mostly irrelevant)
imo chansey has its higher defenses to differentiate it and blissey is the one that is mostly outclassed with its only advantage being the mega gengar matchup
I'm pretty sure giving one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the history of the game free reign to do whatever the fuck it wants is a big enough downside to bump it down a few ranks. You might as well nickname it "Plz Trap Me".
 
i have a quick question relating to that statement,
is a rise of a certain pokemon a good enough reason to degrade a pokemons ranking?

i mean, say that in the case of kyogre, a rank s mon, still a good mon in this meta; if say Gastrodon + Grassceus were to rise very, very significantly in usage, is that grounds enough to change Kyogres rank, or not?

Same with like the case of Deo-S, say Magic Bouncers were to become common once again, would that merit moving Deoxys-S to a lower rank?

Or is that stuff like that not considered when giving a pokemon a rank? just curious
keep in mind that the rise of a poke's counters may well be caused by now the poke itself is so good and can be used as evidence SUPPORTING the pokemon
 

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
Yeah and then the pokemon becomes shit cos its counter is everywhere. Sure that logic implies the rise of the legendary quagsire, but truth is mega gar is a fantastic mon and its ability makes stuff that is weak to it an incredibly liability to a team.

Chansey deserves that fucking rank. Lurk more please.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
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Kel9901, it's a pretty simple case actually. Chansey may claim to take hits better than Blissey, but Blissey already takes hits pretty well and handles most of what Chansey can, and if Mega Gengar is on the opposing team Blissey can still do her job while Chansey cannot wall for shit.
 
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