Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]

[Jimmyftw]

Mega-Kanga is C+

Mega-Kangaskhan have many niche this generation. From being a terrifying sweeper within a matter of second with the help of Power-Up Punch, providing invaluable priority in the form of Fake Out and Sucker Punch (double priority which hits a total of four times), to being a general hard hitter with Parental Bond.

Yes, Mega-Kangaskhan suffers 4MSS but if it can beat everything with just one moveset, it would be OP.

I would place Mega-Kangakhans at a rank of A.

 

[dice]

Kangaskhan sucks. Against HO teams with Mega Gengar it's a 1v1 at best assuming that Gengar doesn't trap / damage any other Pokemon beforehand, and vs any Balanced / Stall team you're doing literally nothing. They switch in a Lugia, Giratina, Skarmory, Scizor, whatever and you're done. Earthquake is the most common on Kanga, so Bronzong is practically a free switch-in too. Kangaskhan is often used as a team's Deo-S / Deo-A / Smeargle, etc. answer, but in reality you're more obligated to lead Kangaskhan than they are to lead Deo-S. If you don't lead Kangaskhan predicting a different lead while they do lead Deo-S, they're getting SR + Spikes set up. If they lead another Pokemon predicting vs Kangaskhan, they can double into Deo-S later in the game and get SR + Spikes. If the Deo-S vs Kanga matchup does occur, they still have SR which gives them momentum. Power Up Punch is terrible; Fake Out is a necessity and PuP as your only coverage move is, quite frankly, retarded. It's not strong enough and the boost is meaningless when you're still cockblocked by steels and ghosts. Kanga's best matchup is against offensive teams, but even then they have several checks. Standard offensive sun has a couple of Groudon / Scizor / Zekrom / Ho-oh at minimum which check Kanga well. The 40% to Groudon may seem awesome, but that's only a 3HKO which gives time to SR and status, phaze, or switch to neuter Kanga and/or give hazards. Wisp Arceus is a great check to Kanga and I believe Fireburn underestimates its longetivity. Who's not to say that Arceus can run PhysDef investment too? At best Kangaskhan should be B-, but I'd stick with Donkey and say C+.

 

[Ascension]

In my opinion I cant really see any pokemon besides maybe Arceus qualifying for S rank. Virtually every pokemon requires SOME support, and while it might often be negligible, it still isnt absolutely NO support. It also depends largely on your definition of "support". Most would perceive passing wish from Chansey to specs ogre as support, but a lesser percentage would view eliminating checks/counters for your main sweeper (i.e extremekiller Arceus) as support. Ho oh is a perfect example. It is easily one of the best pokemon this gen, but it still needs support usually in the form of defog, and often in the form of sun as well. Because of this it does qualify as an S rank pokemon.

 

[Jimmyftw]

Here is what I believe is a good assessment of the current metagame:

S Rank

~ Arceus-Normal: Simply put, this thing is the best at what it does. It dishes out more damage than it takes in and beats many mons 1v1. It provides defensive measures by outspeeding and KOing weaken threats before they can land another attack on your team. It can fit into virtually any teams. It has many variations to it Extreme Killer set giving it a level of unpredictably and versatility. It can also run a decent Wallceus set.

~ Kyogre: Very few checks/counters exist for this thing now. The only viable ones IMO are AV Palkia, the blobs and Specially Defensive Giratina. Water Sprout at full health OHKO many things and full powered Sprout is easier to maintain this generation with Defog. Scarf Kyogre is an excellent cleaner and Spec version define the term wallbreaking. It can also run a myriad of other sets.

~ Yveltal: This thing is the most versatile mon in Uber. It does appreciate Defog support but doesn't actually require it given it's access to move like Oblivion Wing which heals a massive 75%. Speaking of which, it has an incredible arsenal of moves to choose from ranging from Sucker Punch to Taunt to Foul Play. It has a great ability in Dark Aura and fantastic stats distribution. It also have very few checks/counters.

A+ Rank

~ Ho-oh: With SR off your field this thing walls the majority of the Uber metagame and dishes out massive damage. It has the perfect combination of power and bulk and has excellent stab options in Sacred Fire and Brave Bird, the former having an incredible 50% chance of burning the target. It can run a wide variety of sets ranging from Choice Band to Physically Defensive. However, SR will continue to be a massive thorn in the phoenix's wing even with the easy removal of such with defog. Moreover, with the increased popularity of Ho-oh, more threats are taking advantage of Ho-oh 4x weakness to rock by carrying random Stone Edge, Rock Slide, Power Gem. Despite this, with the removal of SR, Ho-oh is arguably the best Pokemon in the game but due to the above hindrances, it falls just short of S-Rank status.

 

[Haruno]

Remind me again why we're using a criteria that doesn't accurately represent a mons viability as opposed to using one that does? If we stick to the original criteria for rankings not only will we avoid this shitstorm that we're currently seeing thanks to our focus on placing mons in S rank but we'll also be able to rank mons based on their actual viability. I don't see why a mon has to be able to fulfill both offensive and defensive roles to be a top tier threat. Oh and just to clarify what I mean by original criteria, here's what it is essentially

S rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

A rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time

B rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

C rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

D rank: shedinja/deo-n

 

[DontStealMyPenguin]

Lanturn is a viable counter for kyogre. It's the only pokemon that's immune to water and learns volt switch, which is actually very good. Ludicolo can also work as it can toxify or leech other mons on kyogre's switch.

Where does everyone think deoxys-a and mandibuzz (yes, that ugly bird thing) should go?

 

[blitzlefan]

ANYWAYS, when did we change the criteria for S rank, A rank, etc.? I remember the old criteria that Haruno has reposted, and I prefer it over what we have now. I don't think it's necessary for an S-rank Pokemon to fulfill both offensive and defensive roles - just one should be enough. And could I suggest that we just being the tierlist with Fireburn or Kebabe or someone's initial list, and then argue to shift things up and down until we arrive at what's right? Because people posting multiple tierlists isn't going to get us anywhere. I personally think it's easier to argue to shift things up or down due to how Pokemon fit the criteria and their relative placement than to decide on which rank it's in (if this makes any sense).

 

[Haruno]

ANYWAYS, when did we change the criteria for S rank, A rank, etc.? I remember the old criteria that Haruno has reposted, and I prefer it over what we have now. I don't think it's necessary for an S-rank Pokemon to fulfill both offensive and defensive roles - just one should be enough. And could I suggest that we just being the tierlist with Fireburn or Kebabe or someone's initial list, and then argue to shift things up and down until we arrive at what's right? Because people posting multiple tierlists isn't going to get us anywhere. I personally think it's easier to argue to shift things up or down due to how Pokemon fit the criteria and their relative placement than to decide on which rank it's in (if this makes any sense).

it changed in 5th gen when MM2 took over the viability ranking thread. I honestly don't see the point of most of his criteria tbh, I know he changed it for the sake of differentiating it from ou but in my opinion the ou criteria makes far more sense than the ones we have currently. If we do change back to the original criteria then we would stop bickering over the placement of ekiller/ygod/xerneas/ho oh/kyogre and move onto the rest of the tier.

 

[Ascension]

Believe me I am not trying to invoke a flame war when I ask: "what is the point of viabilty rankings?". Judging pokemon is incredibly subjective and even when a consensus is made I feel in the end it usually just stifles creativity. Consider someone relatively new who decides to play ubers: they want to use pokemon 1 but unfortunately it has a subpar "C" ranking. A proponent of a ranking system would be a little more predisposed to suggest another pokemon with a higher ranking that any skilled player already knows everything about rather than testing the limits of a pokemon that might actually do some damage if given the proper support.

 

[kingmidas]

Believe me I am not trying to invoke a flame war when I ask: "what is the point of viabilty rankings?". Judging pokemon is incredibly subjective and even when a consensus is made I feel in the end it usually just stifles creativity. Consider someone relatively new who decides to play ubers: they want to use pokemon 1 but unfortunately it has a subpar "C" ranking. A proponent of a ranking system would be a little more predisposed to suggest another pokemon with a higher ranking that any skilled player already knows everything about rather than testing the limits of a pokemon that might actually do some damage if given the proper support.

The point is to help new players who are struggling or just want to know what mons are good for teams and to ward off the horrible mons from teambuilding. Yes it may "stifle" creativity, but that in itself is subjective, as the majority of mons in this tier have more then one set, so most sets have different checks/counters and different mons that synergize better with it, so these ratings you could say are preliminary in contrast to actually making a team what it is for people. Also if creativity is using whatever you want, then I sure as hell enjoy it stifling those players that run greninja, and other horrible mons in ubers. Also these aren't things you have to live by, people can decide to not believe what the discussion produces. Lastly test teams are already used to discover the potential of seemingly crappy mons, so completely ruining a thread meant to give great discussion and possibly rank mons previously thought to suck and change that thought. If you've seen the viability tiers, they tell you how much support a mon needs somewhat, so if you wanna test a mon it warns you of having to support it more to see profit.

 

[MMII]

Remind me again why we're using a criteria that doesn't accurately represent a mons viability as opposed to using one that does? If we stick to the original criteria for rankings not only will we avoid this shitstorm that we're currently seeing thanks to our focus on placing mons in S rank but we'll also be able to rank mons based on their actual viability. I don't see why a mon has to be able to fulfill both offensive and defensive roles to be a top tier threat. Oh and just to clarify what I mean by original criteria, here's what it is essentially

S rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

A rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time

B rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

C rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

D rank: shedinja/deo-n

I only reworded the criteria (except for like D/E rank or something that was really short and vague), or at least that was the goal because the wording was vagueish. I had asked others at the time to make sure I wasn't distorting the criteria (just making them clearer) as well as posted about the change for others to critique. It's annoying that this comes so late but I'm still open to correcting errors.

That said, I feel the criteria is appropriate. I pretty much already answered your concerns in my tl;dr post earlier in this thread. The confusion I see here that I tried to address then was the difference between a "threat list" (what are the metagames top threats?) and a "viability list" (which pokemon are the easiest to put on teams?). You seem to be confusing this thread for a threat list.

Also, don't worry about the clusterfuck. That's part of the discussion and it's natural that people are going to disagree. It'll be the ubers mods that sift through the arguments to decide what the initial placings will be.


Edit: This was the post where I announced the change.

copypasta of original guidelines

..okay. Since it's apparent that everyone will want their "favorites" moved up until nothing exists in any rank below C, I'm going to try to introduce some objectivity into these proceedings.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who perform specific niches and can be effective given the right support, but either are incapable of performing well outside of that niche or are heavily dependent on that support.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are simply not very effective in the current metagame.

E Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are aggressively mediocre. The worst of the worst.

 

[Pokemon Trainer AZ]

No one's mentioned him yet, but I nominate Mega Lucario for B+. Although OU, it almost certainly won't be for long, and might fare even better in Ubers. Its attack and special attack are pretty horrifying with Adaptability and can boost them both to ridiculous levels. It has not one but three priority moves: Bullet Punch and Vacuum Wave, boosted by Adaptability, and Extremespeed at 80 power. Bullet Punch stops Geomancy Xerneas dead in its tracks. Mega Lucario double resists Sucker Punch, and outspeeds and KOs Mega Kangaskhan and Yveltal with Close Combat. It just barely checks Extreme Killer, and can't be KOed by unboosted EK's Earthquake with proper HP investment.

What hinders Mega Lucario for reaching A is it can barely switch into anything at all, and needs team support against Ho-Oh, Aegislash, and Will-O-Wisp (if running physical set, which it probably will be). If boosted, however, it can rip many teams to shreds with its priority, Adaptability, and 260 base Speed.

 

[Haruno]

No one's mentioned him yet, but I nominate Mega Lucario for B+. Although OU, it almost certainly won't be for long, and might fare even better in Ubers. Its attack and special attack are pretty horrifying with Adaptability and can boost them both to ridiculous levels. It has not one but three priority moves: Bullet Punch and Vacuum Wave, boosted by Adaptability, and Extremespeed at 80 power. Bullet Punch stops Geomancy Xerneas dead in its tracks. Mega Lucario double resists Sucker Punch, and outspeeds and KOs Mega Kangaskhan and Yveltal with Close Combat. It just barely checks Extreme Killer, and can't be KOed by unboosted EK's Earthquake with proper HP investment.

What hinders Mega Lucario for reaching A is it can barely switch into anything at all, and needs team support against Ho-Oh, Aegislash, and Will-O-Wisp (if running physical set, which it probably will be). If boosted, however, it can rip many teams to shreds with its priority, Adaptability, and 260 base Speed.

Being unable to ohko most things that aren't hit with SE close combat is a major problem for mega Luca since if it doesn't score a ko then it's getting ko'd. Forget about trying to set up, any scarfer can easily overwhelm Luca with its lack luster defenses. I wouldn't put it at B.

 

[MMII]

I'm going to try to pitch in my own opinions. Just going to focus on some S/A+ rank candidates.

-Kyogre: Basically everything Manaphy said. Scarf, Specs, and Defensive are all godly sets. If I want a revenge killer, Choice Scarf Kyogre is going to be my first thought. If I need a status sponge and defensive backbone, I'm going to want to use the insanely good defensive Kyogre. Choice Specs is the same motherfucker it has always been so I don't really need to talk about him, still another premier set for the roles it covers. Kyogre is just a really diverse and metagame defining Pokemon, it's super easy to stick him on teams and get results. I feel you guys criticize the non-perma Rain too much, 5 turns is still enough utility for you to breath easier about using Thunder and, of course, weather isn't the only thing you can call utility. Kyogre's revenge killing and status sponging abilities help out a team a lot as well.

-Xerneas: I hate rewarding the Geomancy hype with sticking this guy in S rank but honestly I think he deserves it for the reasons Polop pointed out. Only hesitation is how that mega Gengar weakens arguably calls for some team support. I could see it being A+ for this reason alone because it's hard to rely on a mon so weak to a common metagame defining trapper.

-Yveltal: Not sure if S or A+. LO set is fucking amazing for sure but I'm probably the only one who likes the Scarf variant and the phys def one is pretty much "almost cool". Then there's that SR weakness that gets annoying, which kinda asks for team support. Yveltal is something that is better at first glance than it probably actually is.

-Ho-Oh: It's an amazing mon but it's super reliant on Defog. The metagame is already beginning to disprove the idea that running a Defog Arceus is good enough as SR setters are adapting and teams are taking advantage of mega Gengar's devastating trapping abilities. I'd probably stick it in A+ because as good as it is, it still puts a strain on teambuilding.

-Arceus-Normal: I disagree with him having gotten better, I'd argue he got worse. He may have lost a number of checks from last gen (not as much as I think is being claimed but whatever) but the new ones he put much more stress on what variants he can run. Your typical gen 5 strongly dislike the dominant Mega Gengar (for example) being able to outspeed and pick it off with Focus Blast (you didn't setup for free). To get around the new threats these new threats, a Jolly max speed set has become the optimal spread but that results in restrictions on the items you can run (stuck with LO now) and also significantly reduces Ekillers general bulk. Plus, this metagame is populated with many slow and defensive teams which are the ones Ekiller often falls flat against due to it's underwhelming power. It struggles even more to find setup opportunities with status everywhere and bulky Pokemon that can afford to take a hit. Overall, I don't think his offensive power has really seen an improvement. Not to mention there's that huge ass opportunity cost of using such a shitty defensive typing when Arceus is so damn good because of it's ability to string together teams. It's revenge killing abilities are noticable but a good old scarfer (like Kyogre) still vastly exceeds it in that area. Wallceus is just Mega Gengar bait. Not sure where I would stick Arceus-N, just certainly not in S rank.

 

[Jimmyftw]

I notice that a lot of people on this thread agrees that the following four mons are either S or A+: Arceus-Normal, Kyogre, Yveltal and Ho-oh.

I think Ho-oh falls short of S-Rank since if you're building a team with Ho-oh, you absolutely must have a deffoger, providing this support is unavoidable when using Ho-oh.

People have argue about the opportunity cost of using the normal version of Arceus so I would like to comment on this a bit. If you're using a support Arceus with defog, you want to load you team with hazard weak mons. So, is it really easier to fit a support Arceus rather than an Ekiller? Not all people want to use mons like Ho-oh and Lugia although they are good in the current metagame. Yes, defog does benefit the whole team and everybody likes no hazards, but given the popularity of defog, it in itself, reduced the prevalence of team relying on hazard support. If your team is not necessarily weak to hazards, you don't necessarily need a defogger as you can, when playing against hazard weak teams, put up you own SR, hence forcing your opponent to remove their own hazard.

 

[Blue Jay]

People have argue about the opportunity cost of using the normal version of Arceus so I would like to comment on this a bit. If you're using a support Arceus with defog, you want to load you team with hazard weak mons. So, is it really easier to fit a support Arceus rather than an Ekiller? Not all people want to use mons like Ho-oh and Lugia although they are good in the current metagame. Yes, defog does benefit the whole team and everybody likes no hazards, but given the popularity of defog, it in itself, reduced the prevalence of team relying on hazard support. If your team is not necessarily weak to hazards, you don't necessarily need a defogger as you can, when playing against hazard weak teams, put up you own SR, hence forcing your opponent to remove their own hazard.

Um, what? Defog or no Defog, stacking SR weaknesses is just poor teambuilding. Not only can a lot of Pokemon pressure Defog users with offensive presence or Taunt them to delay Defogging, but even when you find an opportunity to successfully Defog it gives the opponent a free turn every time. So Defogging repeatedly is not only often difficult, but also costly against capable players with teams that punish handing out free turns. Furthermore, stacking SR weaknesses means stacking type weaknesses, which means poor defensive synergy and major vulnerability to certain threats. Defog is not some divine teambuilding glue move that allows for such silliness.

Moreover, using an alternate Arceus forme does not mandate the use of Defog. In fact, being able to forgo Defog opens up a lot of great options. Various Calm Mind Arceus formes do well in this metagame, whether using a mono-attacking set (like Arceus-Water) that makes a wonderful status absorber that gives some teams hell, or a standard Calm Mind Arceus (like Arceus-Electric), which becomes very dangerous very quickly. Support Arceus formes can be good SR setters, often finding repeated opportunities to set the hazard and having all the longevity of the Defoggers. Support formes can lure and beat some of their typical checks with the right coverage move (eg Stone Edge on Arceus-Fairy). The number of viable typings also opens up significantly when an Arceus forme does not need to try to have offensive utility with its STAB alone.

 

[Rotosect]

I think Xerneas should be S-rank. It may be a one-trick pony, but it's by far the best special sweeper in the game and the uber metagame revolves around not letting it a chance to set up, lest being forced to watch in horror as it effortlessly sweeps your team. Not even Kyogre and Extremekiller Arceus have ever been so overcentralizing and metagame-defining.
I disagree with people saying it has better options than Geomancy because it really doesn't. It lacks the raw power to run a Scarf set, it lacks physical options to run a mixed set and it lacks a recovery move to run a defensive or CM set. There are far better pokemon for these roles, such as Mewtwo, Arceus and Chansey. Despite these flaws there is no doubt Xerneas is the new king of ubers.

I would also nominate Kyurem-W for A-rank.
Its Specs set hits like a nuclear bomb and thanks to Defog it now has more switch-in opportunities than ever. It also sits at a decent base 95 speed, letting it outspeed the plethora of common base 90 speed ubers such as Groudon and Giratina. Its also reasonably bulky so it can still take a few hits before going down. Finally it is a great Xerneas bait (who still takes massive damage from Ice Beam so it's not an exactly safe switch-in anyway) and pairs well with its checks such as Ho-oh.
Overall a great pokemon in this metagame.

 

[Anachronism]

S
Arceus-Normal - This pokemon is so good at what it does. It is arguably the best end-game sweeper in Ubers. It basically has only minor variations (Lum Berry, Recover, EV spreads) on a single set, but that set is very difficult to stop effectively due to its sheer bulk and power, and those minor variations change the way checks must interact with it. It is also an excellent revenge-killer, allowing it to have some defensive utility even though it isn't a true wall. Arceus-Normal doesn't particularly require team support. All it needs is that perfect opportunity where the opponent has been locked into a coverage move or has pulled the trigger on Draco Meteor, and then it sets up for free, and perhaps some slight weakening due to entry hazards and the like. Once set up it will go untouched by the majority of the tier due to the power and speed of Extremespeed and will probably tank an attack even if something does manage to touch it. The opportunity cost of not being able to use other Arceus forms and is about as negligible as the opportunity cost of not being able to use a different pokemon in the slot.

Xerneas - Essentially same reasoning as Arceus-Normal: easy to set up and dominant once the free turn has been given. Xerneas requires very little support to function, and forces switches like none other to help create offensive momentum. It has a fairly shallow offensive movepool, but Moonblast is a powerful STAB and the coverage options are good enough to make it somewhat customizable. Xern also has great defenses that allow it to tank hits from and kill the majority of would-be checks and allow it to check some pokemon (especially Mega-Mewtwo X, Blaziken, Yveltal) itself if necessary. Unfortunately, Aegislash is essentially a hard counter to the Geomancy set and Xerneas only has one opportunity to sweep the opposing team. However, Xerneas still more or less forces opponents to have Aegislash or run the risk of having more shaky checks outmaneuvered, and although Aegislash has excellent survivability, it has no reliable recovery and invites in (and gives free turns to) a whole host of pokemon that can take advantage of it, especially Ho-oh. Although Power Herb's single usage can be annoying at times, unboosted Xerneas still hits like a truck andsets other than Geomancy (especially those including Aromatherapy) are somewhat viable and potentially very threatening, providing some extra diversity that can make things even more difficult.

Kyogre - Permanent rain or not, there are very few pokemon that can tank hits and dish them out as well as Kyogre. Not only does Kyogre need no setup or support, the rain it creates passively provides support to others. Although it doesn't provide the team support as well as it used to, it is still a very powerful threat with few viable checks regardless of its ability to also provide team support. Its bulk and resistances allow it to switch in easily, and its great power immediately puts a great deal of pressure on the opponent. Kyogre is best known for its Choice sets. Although Kyogre has a fairly shallow offensive movepool, the threat of a powerful boosted water attack and coverage moves that can punish the few checks that exist are enough to create huge offensive momentum, and although these sets have neither recovery nor set-up moves they are more than capable of checking threats or sweeping. The Scarf set can also adequately revenge kill, while the Specs set is a ridiculous wall breaker. Palkia and Giratina are the only viable pokes that can switch in on both of these sets adequately, but neither of them can weather the storm for long with their shaky recovery. Beyond the versatile choice sets, defensive sets featuring Rest, Scald and/or Calm Mind can also pose as late-game sweepers or check various threats. Scald and Rest can allow Ogre to stall out some potential checks such as Ferrothorn or some Palkia variants with ease.

A+
Ho-oh - I think that few can deny that Ho-oh has the raw bulk and power to be S-rank, with few viable checks and the ability to easily burn the few that exist. It is pretty obvious that access to high-powered stab moves with excellent coverage that can also burn to play into Ho-oh's great bulk is insane, and great passive and active recovery allow Ho-oh to be played aggressively or defensively without loss of longevity. Unfortunately, the need for Defog support prevents Ho-oh from attaining the S-rank it likely deserves. It would seem that Defog support is fairly minimal help to provide, but ironically the need to run a solid Ho-oh answer like Arceus-Rock also diminishes the power of your own Ho-oh, as Arceus-Rock is often not the most reliable of Defoggers. sure, if you want to use a different defensive Arceus form you can and it will keep hazards clear pretty reliably, but it will likely invite in the opponent's Ho-oh in the majority of cases, which is a dangerous prospect. The need for a good Defogger is a very real opportunity cost that prevents an S-rank, but I think it is appropriate to give Ho-oh the next best thing.

More to come

 

[Disaster Area]

This is turning into a clusterfuck of inflation Q_O

Yes Xern should be ranked highly - teams do have to prepare for it well, but there are a couple of hard counters, and more soft counters and soft checks that are all legitimately viable.. It is however very versatile (once you ignore the lower end of the ladder), running CM, SubCM, RestTalk-cleric (best available cleric in most instances).. Seriously low A rank at the least.. it's ta solid cleaner, it's versatile, it usually needs fairly light support - indeed, with aromatherapy it can often be the supporter. It has clearly defined weaknesses, but it's probably worth at least A-.

 

[Hack]

-Arceus-Normal: I disagree with him having gotten better, I'd argue he got worse. He may have lost a number of checks from last gen (not as much as I think is being claimed but whatever) but the new ones he put much more stress on what variants he can run. Your typical gen 5 strongly dislike the dominant Mega Gengar (for example) being able to outspeed and pick it off with Focus Blast (you didn't setup for free). To get around the new threats these new threats, a Jolly max speed set has become the optimal spread but that results in restrictions on the items you can run (stuck with LO now) and also significantly reduces Ekillers general bulk. Plus, this metagame is populated with many slow and defensive teams which are the ones Ekiller often falls flat against due to it's underwhelming power. It struggles even more to find setup opportunities with status everywhere and bulky Pokemon that can afford to take a hit. Overall, I don't think his offensive power has really seen an improvement. Not to mention there's that huge ass opportunity cost of using such a shitty defensive typing when Arceus is so damn good because of it's ability to string together teams. It's revenge killing abilities are noticable but a good old scarfer (like Kyogre) still vastly exceeds it in that area. Wallceus is just Mega Gengar bait. Not sure where I would stick Arceus-N, just certainly not in S rank.

You underestimate that Ekiller also holds together teams from being swept by stuff like Mega-Blaziken, who has no counters. A scarfer can't put the offensive pressure on a team like Ekiller can- when you bring a scarf Kyogre in for the rk, you are only doing exactly that, when you bring in Ekiller for the rk you are also indirectly threatening with a countersweep. Since a scarfer has to be locked into a move and can't set up, they can always be taken advantage of. Nothing can set up on E-killer and many mons are forced into making certain plays when it gets in just because how threatening it is. If you honestly think a "good old scarf vastly (!!!!!!!!!) exceeds" Ekiller in the area of revenge killing then I honestly don't know what I am supposed to think anymore. Gengar isn't as much of a problem as you think. It's not always that easy to Mega Evolve earlier than E-killer who can bust up a mid-game mini sweep (it doesn't need to sweep end game, with a Life Orb it has the opportunity to get work done mid-game too). Gengar also destroys quite a lot of support Arceus, along with any slower mon really, but it will always have to Destiny Bond to actually kill Ekiller, unlike what it has to do with vs Arceus-Fairy for example. I don't see any concrete examples of slow bulky team archetypes that E-killer sucks against. Just because a team is slow and bulky doesn't mean you can't work your way through them. It's power is not underwhelming, you just think it is because you have a conception that it is when in fact you actually never used the mon properly. If you use it for what it is best at- a focus on gluing teams together by providing offensive presence and revenge killing utility, and then focus on getting your sweeps- then you will see how good it is. You argue that it has a huge opportunity cost. You should look at my argument for why the opposite stands true this generation. There is no singular Arceus-forme that can be argued to be better, most of them are really flawed with obvious weaknesses (Grass is Gengar-bait, Fairy is better but is also Ho-oh/Scizor weak depending on moves+Gengar-bait, Water is a cool compromise but it can't check Kyogre that well, Rock is a shitty typing other than for checking Ho-oh). You can argue that using a good defensive typing is is cool. It is also cool to include the best revenge killer in the game as an emergency break against most sweepers- something no other mon can do.

 

[Jimmyftw]

Um, what? Defog or no Defog, stacking SR weaknesses is just poor teambuilding. Not only can a lot of Pokemon pressure Defog users with offensive presence or Taunt them to delay Defogging, but even when you find an opportunity to successfully Defog it gives the opponent a free turn every time. So Defogging repeatedly is not only often difficult, but also costly against capable players with teams that punish handing out free turns. Furthermore, stacking SR weaknesses means stacking type weaknesses, which means poor defensive synergy and major vulnerability to certain threats. Defog is not some divine teambuilding glue move that allows for such silliness.

Moreover, using an alternate Arceus forme does not mandate the use of Defog. In fact, being able to forgo Defog opens up a lot of great options. Various Calm Mind Arceus formes do well in this metagame, whether using a mono-attacking set (like Arceus-Water) that makes a wonderful status absorber that gives some teams hell, or a standard Calm Mind Arceus (like Arceus-Electric), which becomes very dangerous very quickly. Support Arceus formes can be good SR setters, often finding repeated opportunities to set the hazard and having all the longevity of the Defoggers. Support formes can lure and beat some of their typical checks with the right coverage move (eg Stone Edge on Arceus-Fairy). The number of viable typings also opens up significantly when an Arceus forme does not need to try to have offensive utility with its STAB alone.

I'm not sure if you quoted me on mistake or if you mis-comprehended what I was saying. I was commenting on the discussion that "Arceus-Normal has big opportunity cost since you cannot run another more synergistic Arceus Form especially one with Defog." Note that I am not in favor of this argument as I argued that you don't necessarily need a support Arceus form with defog (or without defog) since you can run team that are not weak to hazard and hence Arceus-Normal does not have that "big opportunity cost" as some people think.

Also, by your definition of "poor defensive synergy" teams cannot run both Lugia or Ho-oh at the same time or Ho-oh and Yveltal etc.

 

[Blue Jay]

I'm not sure if you quoted me on mistake or if you mis-comprehended what I was saying. I was commenting on the discussion that "Arceus-Normal has big opportunity cost since you cannot run another more synergistic Arceus Form especially one with Defog." Note that I am not in favor of this argument as I argued that you don't necessarily need a support Arceus form with defog (or without defog) since you can run team that are not weak to hazard and hence Arceus-Normal does not have that "big opportunity cost" as some people think.

Also, by your definition of "poor defensive synergy" teams cannot run both Lugia or Ho-oh at the same time or Ho-oh and Yveltal etc.

Not at all, my point is simply that I feel you over-emphasize Support Arceus with Defog as the alternative to Extremekiller Arceus, as if it were the only way to justify using other Arceus formes and they substantially lack utility beyond Defog. Although the introduction of Defog as a major part of this metagame has added an opportunity cost that was not present in the past generation, there was already another teambuilding opportunity cost in how effectively Arceus can glue teams together by virtue of its excellent movepool, solid, balanced stats and its ability to be any single type. Even without using Defog, Arceus formes claim some of the hands down best checks/counters to some prominent metagame threats, some of which have very few good checks outside of Arceus formes. It cannot be denied that, as Hack has explained, Extremekiller Arceus has significant utility as an emergency check against mons and a revenge killer for weakened threats, but more defensive Arceus formes have the ability to comfortably switch into major threats and check them repeatedly. As the viability ranking is based on the ease with which a Pokemon fits onto a team, forgoing the massive potential for glue/checks/support to patch up a team that an Arceus forme has for a sweeper (even if it is arguably the best sweeper) certainly has a significant opportunity cost with limitations for teambuilding. This is not to downplay its sweeping capability or general utility in any way, however.

I would also be quite hesitant to use two (certainly never more) of Ho-Oh, Lugia and Yveltal in a team. Yveltal and something like Thundurus-I could still be alright, since neither really depends on the absence of SR, but Ho-Oh and Lugia are immensely crippled by SR and having another Pokemon that is hampered by it, as well as sharing multliple weaknesses, puts a lot of strain on the team to cover said weaknesses and successfully Defog repeatedly.

 

[MMII]

Fiddled with the organization of your post

You underestimate that Ekiller also holds together teams from being swept by stuff like Mega-Blaziken, who has no counters.

A scarfer can't put the offensive pressure on a team like Ekiller can- when you bring a scarf Kyogre in for the rk, you are only doing exactly that, when you bring in Ekiller for the rk you are also indirectly threatening with a countersweep. Since a scarfer has to be locked into a move and can't set up, they can always be taken advantage of. If you honestly think a "good old scarf vastly (!!!!!!!!!) exceeds" Ekiller in the area of revenge killing then I honestly don't know what I am supposed to think anymore. It is also cool to include the best revenge killer in the game as an emergency break against most sweepers- something no other mon can do.

Nothing can set up on E-killer and many mons are forced into making certain plays when it gets in just because how threatening it is.

Gengar isn't as much of a problem as you think. It's not always that easy to Mega Evolve earlier than E-killer who can bust up a mid-game mini sweep (it doesn't need to sweep end game, with a Life Orb it has the opportunity to get work done mid-game too). [snip] but it will always have to Destiny Bond to actually kill Ekiller, unlike what it has to do with vs Arceus-Fairy for example.

Gengar also destroys quite a lot of support Arceus, along with any slower mon really, [...]

I don't see any concrete examples of slow bulky team archetypes that E-killer sucks against. Just because a team is slow and bulky doesn't mean you can work your way through them. It's power is not underwhelming,

you just think it is because you have a conception that it is when in fact you actually never used the mon properly. If you use it for what it is best at- a focus on gluing teams together by providing offensive presence and revenge killing utility, and then focus on getting your sweeps- then you will see how good it is.

You argue that it has a huge opportunity cost. You should look at my argument for why the opposite stands true this generation. There is no singular Arceus-forme that can be argued to be better, most of them are really flawed with obvious weaknesses (Grass is Gengar-bait, Fairy is better but is also Ho-oh/Scizor weak depending on moves+Gengar-bait, Water is a cool compromise but it can't check Kyogre that well, Rock is a shitty typing other than for checking Ho-oh). You can argue that using a good defensive typing is is cool.

Well, no super solid counters that are currently being used. (I like to believe that the ubers metagame can still adapt to this threat but we'll see from spl I guess) Still, definitely a fair point and a plus for Ekiller.

I interpreted your revenge killing comment as to mean exclusively in the scenario where you need to stop a threat. Espeed is a strong useful priority but it pales in comparison to a Water Spout or Bolt Strike (plus coverage moves) when it comes to stopping threats. (with exception to those handful of really, really fast guys like blaze) As for the indirect pressure, that is certainly present but it's a separate thing (and its not absent from guys like Zek and Kyogre, you give them more chances to RK something and your checks to them are going to be worn down fast) as it deals with punishing a switch rather than stopping a threat. (you could use your bulk to stop the threat but that's obviously not revenge killing, and Ekiller can't really afford to have as much bulk this gen)

BU MMX can .trl (unless you are talking after ekiller has already boosted? Then you can use Skarmer and stack.)

I was talking about Gengar before Mega Evolving. If you don't run Jolly Ekiller (which is forced to use LO to not be super piss weak) then Gengar will still outspeed and can pick you off with Focus Blast. (252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 200 HP / 4 SpD Arceus: 272-322 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Yeah, but I'm not arguing support Arceus for S rank. :p Being weak to one of his main STAB/coverage moves would definitely be a concern for any Pokemon to be considered S rank.

Guys like wisp support Arceus, Lando-t/donner, Mega Scizor, Skarm, phys def Kyogre, phys def ho-oh, etc are all common metagame mons that can switch into and force out Ekiller if needed. Obviously, some are shakier than others but you also have to keep in mind how most of the remaining team is going to be Pokemon like Aegislash, Ho-Oh (LO), Amoongus (lol), and other random Toxic users that can take an unboosted hit and cripple Ekiller with a powerful blow/status. (you can argue that Lum helps with random Toxic and shit but that brings up my earlier point of Ekiller being harder to just use one set for because the new checks threaten it in new ways) There's not really many free turns for Arceus-N in this metagame and a lot of teams naturally have multiple checks to it. Sure, you can use teammates and all that but my point was to refute the concept that it became a superior sweeper this gen, I feel the opposite is true.

I feel like you are overestimating the gluing aspect. It's only really present if you need to check Mega Blaziken (which is important but early meta so I don't really like overvaluing this) as otherwise it's just another sweeper than can potentially pick off weakened threats. (a Mewtwo can, too, if the mon doesn't pump up its speed) That specialization is comparable to Rock Arceus, imo.

The opportunity cost is clearly there. It may be true for the other support Arceus formes as well in opting for them over Ekiller but none of them have been suggested for S rank. (and I personally wouldn't put any of them there)

 

[Edgar]

I'd like to nominate my boy Sylveon for B rank, it offers a great defensive support, but it only has one role, which is supporting teams with Heal Bell and Wish, and it needs support itself from pokemon that can check threats like Gengar and most of physical attackers.

 

[Fireburn]

Fiddled with the organization of your post

Well, no super solid counters that are currently being used. (I like to believe that the ubers metagame can still adapt to this threat but we'll see from spl I guess) Still, definitely a fair point and a plus for Ekiller.

I interpreted your revenge killing comment as to mean exclusively in the scenario where you need to stop a threat. Espeed is a strong useful priority but it pales in comparison to a Water Spout or Bolt Strike (plus coverage moves) when it comes to stopping threats. (with exception to those handful of really, really fast guys like blaze) As for the indirect pressure, that is certainly present but it's a separate thing (and its not absent from guys like Zek and Kyogre, you give them more chances to RK something and your checks to them are going to be worn down fast) as it deals with punishing a switch rather than stopping a threat. (you could use your bulk to stop the threat but that's obviously not revenge killing, and Ekiller can't really afford to have as much bulk this gen)

BU MMX can .trl (unless you are talking after ekiller has already boosted? Then you can use Skarmer and stack.)

I was talking about Gengar before Mega Evolving. If you don't run Jolly Ekiller (which is forced to use LO to not be super piss weak) then Gengar will still outspeed and can pick you off with Focus Blast. (252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 200 HP / 4 SpD Arceus: 272-322 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Yeah, but I'm not arguing support Arceus for S rank. :p Being weak to one of his main STAB/coverage moves would definitely be a concern for any Pokemon to be considered S rank.

Guys like wisp support Arceus, Lando-t/donner, Mega Scizor, Skarm, phys def Kyogre, phys def ho-oh, etc are all common metagame mons that can switch into and force out Ekiller if needed. Obviously, some are shakier than others but you also have to keep in mind how most of the remaining team is going to be Pokemon like Aegislash, Ho-Oh (LO), Amoongus (lol), and other random Toxic users that can take an unboosted hit and cripple Ekiller with a powerful blow/status. (you can argue that Lum helps with random Toxic and shit but that brings up my earlier point of Ekiller being harder to just use one set for because the new checks threaten it in new ways) There's not really many free turns for Arceus-N in this metagame and a lot of teams naturally have multiple checks to it. Sure, you can use teammates and all that but my point was to refute the concept that it became a superior sweeper this gen, I feel the opposite is true.

I feel like you are overestimating the gluing aspect. It's only really present if you need to check Mega Blaziken (which is important but early meta so I don't really like overvaluing this) as otherwise it's just another sweeper than can potentially pick off weakened threats. (a Mewtwo can, too, if the mon doesn't pump up its speed) That specialization is comparable to Rock Arceus, imo.

The opportunity cost is clearly there. It may be true for the other support Arceus formes as well in opting for them over Ekiller but none of them have been suggested for S rank. (and I personally wouldn't put any of them there)

Scarfers aren't exactly as good at revenge killing common threats as they used to be. In fact, most Scarfers have gotten worse this gen, with only Kyogre and Zekrom (and Xerneas ) remaining as the really good ones, and not even they can handle top offensive threats such as opposing EKiller, Mega Blaziken, Geo Xerneas (I know you hate it but there's no denying it's not extremely threatening!) and even the occasional RP Groudon. All of these sweepers have either a limited set of checks, no defensive counters, defensive checks that are substantially worse in this metagame, or some combination of the three. And none of them care about how fast your Scarfer is - what good is that nice Spout or Bolt Strike if you never get the chance to use it? Having a Pokemon that can provide glue vs these threats and more with very strong priority AND threaten a counter-sweep at any time AND still be able to punch big holes on the enemy team is what makes Extremekiller such an excellent glue Pokemon. It doesn't necessarily have to sweep whole teams to be useful.

You're overestimating a lot of these potential checks to EKiller. Landorus-T is a freaking terrible check and I don't get why people rely on it to stop EKiller since it easily 2HKOes after a boost and Lando can't do anything back aside from Toxic since it can't phaze. Physically Defensive Kyogre is still taking 60-70% from +2 ESpeed and can only phaze or have a 30% chance to win with Scald. Same with Ho-Oh, only it automatically fails if SR is up. Groudon is only a one-time check, maybe 2. Skarmory is easy to take advantage of since it can't take special attacks at all and doesn't do a lot of damage. Most old checks (Giratinas, Terrak, Ferro, Forry) are not terribly useful this metagame outside of specific niches. Heck, some Pokemon are running specialized sets (would you ever use Phys Def Yveltal if EKiller wasn't around) just to check this thing. It is harder to "stack" EKiller checks this generation while still covering all of your team bases since there are much fewer of them.

And as Hack said, one of the biggest strengths of EKiller is its ability to come in at any point in the game and wreck things. Yeah, so maybe busting it out on Turn 5 isn't the best idea, but waiting until Turn 50 to use it isn't necessarily a must either. For example, all those other Pokemon you mentioned that could take an unboosted hit are Xerneas checks, and Xerneas would certainly appreciate Aegislash taking 60% from an unboosted EKiller Earthquake, or the foe letting EKiller set up as it gets Toxiced and then crying as they lose 2-3 Pokemon before it succumbs because now they can't burn it. And as Hack also said, EKiller is one of those things that forces plays due to how threatening it is, so bringing it out as mid-game support/holepunching can be pretty deadly.

Also I agree with the points made by Anachronism.