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Gen 5 The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Tobes, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. superstar

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    Bringing up a point that Melee Mewtwo made earlier, I think that Genesect should certainly stay in A+ rank. Sure, it literally only has one set. But when you are making an Uber team nowadays, I feel that almost everyone pretty much just auto-adds Genesect, and then only takes it off if they have a very good reason for it. It's so powerful, fast, and checks so many threats that it's tough to build a team without it. Between U-turn, Iron Head flinches, and the always present threat of Explosion, Genesect is one of the best mons in the game right now.
  2. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    You aren't getting much off hitting Heatran with Fusion Flare since he is still neutral to the attack, you actually deal more damage to him with Draco Meteor, lol (til after the drop, you should be clicking Focus Blast/Earth Power anyways). The OHKOs on Skarm and Forry are pretty minor, it's only really helpful against Custap variants as those are the ones that wouldn't mind being knocked down to 1 HP. As for your scenario your lens is way too small, it is incredibly likely that Kyogre is on the team with that Ferrothorn/Giratina core so Kyu-W is going to have to predict as well. (Yes, it's true that overall Kyurem-W doesn't have to predict as much but it loses that advantage when you factor in how many chances it'll have to attack and how much it can't afford to mispredict with that nasty hazards weakness.) Ho-Oh is still fine against rain as long as it doesn't have to deal with faster water type attackers, most of which bother Kyurem-W as well.

    Anyways, I'll probably just drop him to low B. Does this sound more reasonable to everybody?

    Another discussion point: Mewtwo drop to low A rank.
    Personally, I'm still in favor of keeping him where he is due to his high speed and power allowing him to create free turns for himself easily (which he can then profit from by 2HKOing just about the entire metagame). He is also the fastest non-Scarf, non-SS/SR/Chloro mon in the metagame which means that most teams only have their Choice Scarf mon as offensive checks. This allows Mewtwo to serve as a revenge killer of sorts and also means he becomes a dangerous cleaner once that faster threat is gone. (has to still watch out for any prio, though)
    The argument in favor of a drop points out his lack of resistances (besides making Fight Arc cry) that makes him difficult to directly switch into threats. This leaves a reliance on double switching and revenge killing to get Mewtwo in and also means he doesn't offer any defensive utility.

    Edit: So you feel that being extremely proficient in a single role is enough to justify high A? That's essentially the question I have with Genesect, he's the only one that is currently in that group for this reason.
  3. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    That sounds reasonable for Kyurem-W, to me.

    As for Mewtwo, I support dropping it. Yes, it is very capable and hard to deal with outside of revenge killing, but the hazard weakness and dependence on Life Orb are not great. Furthermore, while it does significantly threaten almost the entire metagame, it usually fails to OHKO most threats it does not have a super effective move against (or even some that it does), and usually pays a heavy price if it does not KO.

    I feel that Genesect's spot in high A rank is warranted. While it only has one set really worth talking about, it works well for essentially any team/playstyle and most teams want to run it, which is a form of versatility in itself.
  4. asterat

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    You're a tad egoistical.
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  5. Worldtour

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    I'm only going to talk about Mewtwo because I've faced several and used it several times.

    The thing about Mewtwo is that once he actually gets on the field (which isn't overly difficult to be honest thanks to all the defensive Pokemon in Ubers) It's fast, it's strong, it's difficult to wall, and it can take down pretty much anything with the correct move or set and it has a lot of moves and sets. It's not really an extremely frail Pokemon - it can't switch into STAB Draco Meteors or Outrages or very strong weather boosted attacks, but when put up against something that isn't as powerful as the above or a non STAB attack, it tends to give the opponent a lot problems with its high speed, impeccable coverage, Psystrike, and other stuff to the point where really only smart switching to a revenge killer is going to down it. You can't both wall and outspeed it, so the offensive power it offers is enough for Mid A in my opinion, even with its lack of defensive synergy.
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  6. Haruno

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    The only problem I have with mewtwo is how after a cm, gene comes in and revenges it with ease but outside of revenging there's really not much one can do to mewtwo thanks to its elite base 130 speed tier. However barring gene there's no real effective way to handle mewtwo bar weather sweepers or weather based scarfers. Not to mention that it has passable bulk to take a hit from priority. Overall I think it's fine in mid A rank though low A seems reasonable as well.
  7. Bossness

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    Comments in Bold. I may add more later but this is all I have to say now.
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
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  8. Magcargo

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    This may seem odd, but why is Gliscor Top B-Rank? I have never seen anybody use this thing and I personally see it as a more annoying pokemon than a Pokemon that will give you a large amount of trouble (which the Pokemon in top B-Rank should be).
    This is one of the dumbest things that I have ever heard. Saying that Kyurem-W is less useful that Sableye and Victini, as well as being equally useful as Kyurem-b and Reshiram is absurd. I guess I can understand it being Mid B-Rank due to its faults, but it should definitely not go as low as Mid C-Rank
  9. Haruno

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    Seconded also as far as C rank is concerned

    C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who perform specific niches and can be effective given the right support, but either are incapable of performing well outside of that niche or are heavily dependent on that support.

    Kyu-w isn't forced to have support not does it have a single specific niche and useless outside of said niche. So by that definition alone it shouldn't be C rank. Pressing Draco Meteor and wrecking shit isn't considered a niche btw.
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  10. Melee Mewtwo

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    JS, Mewtwo shouldn't be CMing when there's a Genesect still around and it doesn't even need to CM to 2HKO the metagame. (just wanted to nitpick that real quick)

    Going to work backwards in response to Kyurem comments.

    Haruno: I think you should reread my arguments, I wasn't contesting Kyurem's ability to wreck shit but his ability to find those free turns in order to do so.

    Mag2: It may very well be a dumb statement, I can accept that. However, you'll need to justify a bit more why it shouldn't be placed as such to convince me. (mind you it's just a small afterthought, don't get too hung up on it as it is by no means what I am currently proposing or arguing)

    As for Gliscor, he's got a really good typing that lets him take advantage of guys like Groudon, Terrakion, Zekrom, etc. along with great utility like Taunt and Poison Heal plus the nice speed. It pretty much wrecks Stall and a lot of other teams that give it too many free turns as once a mon is poisoned it can just Sub stall it to death.

    Anik: Fair point concerning Ice Beam, not having to drop your SpAtk is a nice boon. One thing I want to point out, though, is that in each of these cases there are only slow offensive tanks that are mentioned. This is realistic so I have no problem with it but you also have to remember is that once Kyurem-W makes that kill there is going to be something faster coming in to revenge kill it. Anyways, I agree you have to predict less with Kyurem-W than these other Pokemon however my point is that it has a very difficult time finding the free turn to make that attack. (which wasn't explained in your scenario) This is why I brought up Dialga and Ho-Oh as comparisons, not as Pokemon that have equally good offensive coverage (they obviously don't), but as dangerous wallbreakers that can create free turns in the same handful of scenarios that Kyurem-W can, plus a whole lot more. (and offering shit tons more utility to the team) Even against the teams that it can create a fair number of free turns against (the slow defensive teams it's reputed for breaking) it'll be forced with a defensive backbone that forces it to predict (bulky Ice resists like Spdef Ogre and bulky Dragon resists like Ferrothorn, start factoring stuff like Jirachi and things get really messy) and hazards are going to put massive pressure on it to predict right as well as limit the number of times it gets to attack in general. (it's not too hard to outlast just by forcing it to Draco Meteor in dire circumstances) The LO set is a different animal (and one that hasn't received much attention, although I will admit it is my personal favorite) that now has to factor in that extra LO recoil and power drop. (Roost helps with LO but you lose your HP so fast with that SR weakness that it becomes really tricky to pull it off. Plus you waste your free turn just healing off passive damage and you can't roost spam in front of much.)

    Quick nitpicks though: He didn't mention Sun so I calced Flare without it, still generally better off with one of the other coverage moves if you want to KO Tranner. Kyurem-W is 2HKO'd by Scarf Surf after SR so if it clicks Ice Beam as Kyogre comes in it won't be able to deliver the last two Ice Beams before being KO'd. Specs Ogre also has about 50% to OHKO with Hydro Pump after SR (although you have to factor 80% accuracy so it is shaky). Yes, you do manage to take a nice chunk out of these guys but you fail to make a KO off your free turn so you do need to predict. Also, Dialga's Specs Draco Meteor isn't easily absorbed by Ho-Oh, (252+ SpA Choice Specs Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 271-319 (65.3 - 76.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) there's a very strong chance that you'll 2HKO even after the drop. Even Regenerator is only healing off half that so Ho-Oh isn't getting away scott free from predicting the second DM. (plus it means you would have to add a third teammate to consider) Eplate Groudon has to win speed ties (so a 50/50) and Dialga has a spammable Dragon Pulse and Fire Blast, too. (plus sorta Thunder but Ground types are popular, oh and Dialga's Fire Blast is stronger than Kyu's Fusion Flare)

    Again though, my problem isn't Kyurem's power but his ability to find the opportunities to abuse it. (as well of lack of defensive utility for the team)
  11. Bossness

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    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
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  12. Punchshroom

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    The reason your SmashPass Kyurem-W got no attention is because it doesn't really contribute much to its ranking. The argument of SmashPass is not only silly because many pokemon become incredibly dangerous with +2/+2/+2 boosts anyway, but that SmashPass is also a form of support. Can you say Kyurem-W would still be as good, or as some players say even good at all, if it has no support from SmashPass? The Viability Rankings determine how self-sufficient a sweeper can be as well as how much a support Pokemon can contribute to the team. S-Rank Pokemon tend to do both of these very well. What we are trying to find out is how well Kyurem-W would function in the meta if it receives little to no support from teammates (this means no Rapid Spin as well, but we do tend to take weather into account), and how well it can help the team from a defensive standpoint via resistances, support moves, etc...

    Kyurem-W, like Reshiram, offers almost nothing defensively (it at least resists Water), but has outstanding STAB. Kyurem-W has Ice STAB which is really powerful in Ubers (save Kyogre). This combined with sky-high Special Attack, above average Speed, its relative indifference to the weather (which would influence the power of many other Ubers in a positive or negative fashion) and killer coverage in Dragon + Fire/Ground/Fighting + Ice, these are all good points for Kyurem-W. The main reason Kyurem-W isn't as high as it would first seem is because of its defensive typing. It is vulnerable to any entry hazard on the field, so if those go down Kyurem-W would have a tougher time getting in and out of battle. This is the main reason why the Ho-oh comparison is made earlier: it hates Stealth Rock, but doesn't care about the other 2 hazards and has Regenerator to offset the damage and survive subsequent switch-ins, unlike Kyurem-W. The hazard weakness when you consider that while its speed isn't bad, it isn't spectacular either so it tends to get forced out by faster threats or after a use of Draco Meteor. Its weaknesses to Rock, Fighting, Dragon and Steel expose to many faster Pokemon: Palkia, Lati@s, Scarf Genesect, Arceus-Steel/Rock/Fighting, Terrakion, Kabutops, Excadrill, Mewtwo, and the like. Compared to Dialga as per mentioned earlier, while it boasts less killer offensive stats the amount of Pokemon that can strut right up after a KO to revenge Dialga is much shorter than that of Kyurem-W's list, largely due to its Dragon neutrality. These are factors we have to take into account when considering Kyurem-W's ranking.
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  13. Rayquaza_

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    I think a good or bad defensive type shouldn't weigh in ubers nearly as much as it does in the lower tiers.
    If you look at the stats of virtually every single uber you'll notice that all of them are heavily oriented towards offense rather than defense. You can count the exceptions on one hand: Lugia, Giratina, Deoxys-D, Manaphy and Arceus.
    In a metagame where offensive stats are on average 50 base points higher than defenses, no matter how good a defensive type is, OHKO's can be scored very easily.
    Many ubers don't have a true counter because they're nigh unwallable so you can have all the defensive synergy you want but there's no guarantee you'll be safe.

    Kyu-W is often criticized for its type having "poor" defensive synergy, but what about these so-called "good defensive types"?
    What exactly is a good defensive type in ubers? You'd need to resist/be immune to at least half of water (Kyogre), ice(Kyurem), electric(Zekrom), fire(Ho-oh), dragon(dragons), ghost(Arceus-Ghost and Giratina-O), dark(Darkrai), fighting(Terrakion), rock(SR), bug(Genesect), normal(Arceus) and psychic(Mewtwo) while not being weak to any of them.
    As you can see there is no such a thing in ubers(or in the entire game for that matter).

    tl;dr offensive synergy is much more valuable than defensive synergy in ubers. Kyu-W is capable of feats such as OHKOing Dialga, Kyogre, Groudon, Lugia, Giratina and many others with just one of two moves from the same set, something no other pokemon can do. This is why in my eyes it's an A-rank pokemon. If ubers was a much more defensive metagame then I would agree with Kyu-W being B-rank, but it's not the case.
  14. Worldtour

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    both smashpassers are Low C

    so basically you are trying to say that Kyurem-W needs support from a not very good mon in order to be effectve
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  15. Bossness

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    Well, Smeargle should be B-rank in my opinion, but that's not happening because people hate SmashPass and thus hate to admit that it's a good team archetype. The only reason they are low C is because well... it was placed there by Melee Mewtwo and other SmashPass haters who rule this thread and think of it as their own. #Truth. Why is Smeargle a bad Pokemon? What other Pokemon can use a SmashPass set as effectively as it can? It certainly isn't outclassed. I don't understand your point here. How can Smeargle be bad when it's the more effective SmashPasser? Without Smeargle, SmashPass wouldn't be viable. (maybe with Gorebyss, but meh...)
  16. Punchshroom

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    Nobody said anything about hating SmashPass or it being bad, by all means it can work...it's just kinda predictable. In any case, Smeargle is where it is now because of its dependance on Spore and Focus Sash, you can't deny that. You can pick and choose any moves you want on Smeargle, but if you lack these 2 key components don't expect Smeargle to go very far. It is because of this reason that Smeargle becomes rather easy to play around: if your opponent cannot handle Smeargle I wouldn't expect them to stop a Darkrai. We're not even talking about how Smeargle becomes deadweight if its strategy is stopped. Taunt and Substitute just shuts Smeargle down completely, while Sleep Talkers just plough right through Smeargle anyway. Or I could lead off with something faster and break Smeargle's Sash, switch to something else after Spore, and either blast the recipient or even phase the boosts away. And don't try to make the argument that you have teammates to cover up its weaknesses, that alone means Smeargle needs plenty of support (as I have seen from your RMT), too much to be B-Rank. One niche alone isn't enough to make up for its shortcomings, mainly its piss poor stats.

    We are looking at Kyurem-W as a whole, not just what a specific set can do without addressing the others. So Kyurem-W can arguably make use of SmashPass boosts more effectively than most other Pokemon (like, I dunno...Specs Kyogre? Arceus? Even Giratina-O who isn't hazards weak?). This would be fine and dandy, terrifying in fact, if Kyurem-W could do that by itself. But no, it needs to be passed the boosts, a privilege literally every Pokemon can make use of. This is less effective than boosting up on the spot, something many Pokemon like Mewtwo, every Arceus, Groudon, and Latias can do. You also claim Kyurem-W to be effective in SmashPass. Compared to Dialga who is also effective in SmashPass but can take on both defensive and offensive roles in other teams make it the more versatile threat overall (I think we need to stress this more). I urge you to use Kyurem-W outside of SmashPass and relay your experiences to us.

    Other points you made, like Kyurem-W making Groudon viable in SmashPass (wut? Groudon is perfectly capable of holding its own), using Ancientpower to KO Ho-oh (most legendaries have access to Ancientpower anyway, nothing special, but you should really utilize SR to curb Ho-oh instead and save your moveslot in the first place), and custom EVs (What does that have to do with a Pokemon's viability? Since all pokemon can utilize custom EVs just like SmashPass, it shouldn't be an argument at all) are easily rebutted.
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
  17. Haruno

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    Honestly the fact that kyu-w has no safe switchins bar the pink blobs which means that even though it is unfortunately weak to hazards doesn't mean that it can't just press Draco meteor and expect soemthing to be heavily dented and/or fainted or the few that aren't like say ferro for instance, get wrecked by either fb or ep. I think that fact alone should make it B since unlike resh it isn't weather reliant and if we're going to bring up the whole needs anti hazard support for it to be at its most effective then we might as well bring Ho oh down since there is no doubt that it needs hazard removal even more than kyu-w since a half life Ho oh isn't anywhere near as dangerous as a full life one.
  18. Blue Jay

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    Ho-Oh's need for anti-hazard support is already taken into account in its ranking. If we ignore SR and add sun, CB Ho-Oh is at least as hard to switch into as Specs Kyogre (it's not quite as powerful, but on the other hand its strongest attacks remain at full power throughout the battle, and there is nothing that switches easily into Ho-Oh the way Gastrodon does into Kyogre, as that would require a physically bulky rock/flying type or rock type with levitate, and none exist) and simultaneously walls a large proportion of the specially attacking metagame, especially as Water moves/Thunder become weak/inconsistent in sun so that only Arceus-Rock can boast of easily KOing it with special attacks. And while Ho-Oh can be 2HKO'd by special attacks from various threats, most Pokemon with such offensive power will be OHKO'd by it. Add the fact that it regularly burns the physical attackers that would otherwise kill it more easily, and that if you do manage to force it out it heals an enormous 33% of its health without using a turn, meaning that even sets such as CB Ho-Oh that lack Roost cannot simply be worn down unless it is the last Pokemon remaining on the opponent's team. Without SR on the field Ho-Oh is an Ubers beast which none of the others can hope to rival and would need to be in a high S-rank above Kyogre and Arceus-Ghost, if not a rank entirely its own. Therefore, even despite needing support to perform at its best, its ranking is entirely warranted.

    Tl;dr do not fuck with Ho-Oh. It is a magnificent phoenix and the Ubers metagame is very grateful for the ubiquity of Stealth Rock.

    Also, I feel like the fact that Kyurem-White relies on Draco Meteor for a lot is being ignored. Yes, against the vast majority of teams it is an easy death button, but it neuters itself to the point of forcing itself out with regularity, and while this is admittedly true for most dragons that use Draco Meteor, it significantly compounds the hazard weakness (which is much less of an issue for Specs Dialga or Latios, for example). Yes, it gets Dragon Pulse, but many of the impressive KOs that have been used as an argument for it involve Draco Meteor, and it does need to use Draco Meteor relatively often.

    All things considered, I believe mid or high B rank is fine for it. It is ridiculously threatening offensively, and most teams are unwilling to run one of the very few Pokemon that can switch into it, which means that anytime it manages to come in relatively safely, it will probably KO something. On the other hand, its speed, while still better than the common base 90, still leaves it forced out by a number of unboosted/Scarfless metagame threats. It is very vulnerable to every form of entry hazard, which is generally a significant disadvantage, but especially for a Pokemon which tends to run Choice items (or Life Orb) and Draco Meteor. Its above average bulk is also significantly compromised by a typing that could hardly be worse defensively, giving it very few resistances and weaknesses to common attacking types (making it hard to switch in and easy to force out). Again, the power is immense, and with significant support (whether smashpass or anti-hazard and paralysis) it is absolutely devastating, but without such support it finds itself switching in a very limited number of times, while having difficulty switching in due to being offensively threatened by many Pokemon and lacking resistances to switch into Choiced Pokemon and being forced out easily, either by offensive threats or by becoming set up fodder as it weakens.
  19. Rayquaza_

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    I don't find Kyu-W to be so overly reliant on Draco Meteor as you say, because it still has that incredibly strong and spammable STAB Ice Beam no other pokemon has and ice is a dominant offensive type in ubers. Besides other than Kyogre virtually every pokemon in ubers is hit harder by 2 consecutive Ice Beams than 2 consecutive Draco Meteors.
    And you're still undervaluing dragon/ice as a defensive type. Its resistances are useful and half the types it's weak to are telegraphed (name me a pokemon that uses dragon or steel moves without STAB in ubers) and easy to overcome.
  20. Sweep

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    Nominating Stunfisk for C- rank.


    Stunfisk is a viable supporting pokemon on Ubers sand teams. Its excellent special bulk -- enough to survive a Life Orb Kyurem-W's Ice Beam at full health -- allows it to check Calm Mind Arceus forms that lack Refresh or Substitute; in particular Arceus-Rock and the dreaded Arceus-Ghost. It can support the team by spreading status and setting up Stealth Rock. While 81 special attack is poor by Ubers standards, it is strong enough to break the subs of frail sweepers such as Mewtwo with the move Earth Power. But perhaps Stunfisk's best attribute lie in its ability Sand Veil; after using Toxic against a special sweeper, it can proceed to spam Protect knowing that even if it fails to activate multiple times in a row, the opponent can easily miss. It also gives Stunfisk a good chance to beat Darkrai 1-1, as its moves won't damage Stunfisk much before a Nasty Plot boost and Dark Void will often miss. However, do not let Stunfisk's power lead you into thinking it is invincible. Its auspicious typing grants it weaknesses to common Water and Ground moves found in the tier, and means that Stunfisk matches up terribly with common weather setters. It is also weak to Grass moves and the ubiquitous Ice Beam. As Stunfisk is specially defensive, it cannot handle physical sweepers well at all. Finally, its lack of offensive presence makes it hazard bait for Ferrothorn and other common Spikes setters, though it can beat lead Sash Deoxys-A one on one. Overall, Stunfisk it good enough at spreading status and checking important threats to warrant consideration on Sand teams, so long it gets significant support.
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
  21. Punchshroom

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    Is nominating Stunfisk a thing? I've seen this kind of nom in other tiers already, though that doesn't make it any less hilarious.
  22. Haruno

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    what's wrong with nominating an uber among ubers?
  23. shrang

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    Can you stop being such an attention seeker? Smashpass is taken into account already when we put Smeargle where he is. It really shows your maturity when you make comments like "SmashPass haters who rule this thread". Well, guess what, this thread IS ruled by people who think Smashpass is mediocre, people who are reputable in their abilities to play this game and comment on it. Maybe you should start accepting that people have different opinions to you.
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  24. Melee Mewtwo

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    I wouldn't mind putting Stunfisk on the list but it needs an analysis first. I want to avoid adding anything to the list that doesn't already have an analysis as having one allows me to ensure that it is at least viable and also to link the analysis in the front page. (I'm going to update the list with each mon linked soon, I'm just waiting on the recent discussion points to settle somewhat.)
  25. ogasian

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    Shouldn't we be consulting the almighty Stunfisk user trickroom on his matter?
  26. Melee Mewtwo

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    The viability list has been updated. The changes are:
    • Scizor dropped down to high C rank: Even fans of it felt it was niche.
    • Espeon rose up to low C rank: It's only viable on standard Sun offense (while having competition for the role) which makes it incredibly niche. However, this is a very relevant niche, so...
    • Genesect dropped down to mid A rank: I know this wasn't really unanimous but the majority that I spoke to were either supportive or indifferent. Since high A is the closest to S rank and S rank is reserved for Pokemon that excel in both offensive and defensive roles (among other things), I feel that even an excellent specialist like Genesect shouldn't be placed that high.
    • Tornadus-T rose up to mid B rank: Talked about this already, no opposition.
    • Arceus-Dragon dropped down to high C rank: Based on a conversation on IRC, didn't bring it up here since it was pretty much settled there.
    • Tornadus rose up to low B rank: Brought up during an IRC discussion like Arceus-Dragon. Hurricane with Prankster Taunt and Tailwind is good shit.
    • Beartic was added to mid C rank: It's a really fast Ice type that can use Encore fairly easily to nab Swords Dances. Sadly, Ice types have a shitty defensive typing and it relies on Rain. Plus it's kinda weak without the Swords Dance as it doesn't get a power boost from Rain like other Swift Swimmers.
    • Victreebel was added to mid D rank: It's a Venusaur.

    Along with Pokemon changes there were other changes made to the list. Each Pokemon has been linked to the their respective onsite analysis making the list even more convenient for newer players. There has also been a change of the ranking descriptions. The previous ones sometimes oversimplified things to the point of being unclear and misleading. (You can't sum up a mon with it's potential to sweep or wall, even tacking on support doesn't quite cut it.) I've worked with the guys on IRC to revamp these descriptions while remaining true to the idea behind the initial ones. Every Pokemon that fit into a specific rank under the original version should still remain in the exact same place under the new ones. The goal is to make things more clear and understandable, not change the requirements. If you feel that they have not accomplished this goal please voice your concerns. For reference the original definitions were:
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    Also, I want to point out that just because changes were made does not make them permanent. If you feel like something was wrongly displaced or that anything else on the list is misplaced go ahead and say so.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2013

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