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Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Tobes, Oct 27, 2012.
Comments in Bold. I may add more later but this is all I have to say now.
This may seem odd, but why is Gliscor Top B-Rank? I have never seen anybody use this thing and I personally see it as a more annoying pokemon than a Pokemon that will give you a large amount of trouble (which the Pokemon in top B-Rank should be).
This is one of the dumbest things that I have ever heard. Saying that Kyurem-W is less useful that Sableye and Victini, as well as being equally useful as Kyurem-b and Reshiram is absurd. I guess I can understand it being Mid B-Rank due to its faults, but it should definitely not go as low as Mid C-Rank
Seconded also as far as C rank is concerned
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who perform specific niches and can be effective given the right support, but either are incapable of performing well outside of that niche or are heavily dependent on that support.
Kyu-w isn't forced to have support not does it have a single specific niche and useless outside of said niche. So by that definition alone it shouldn't be C rank. Pressing Draco Meteor and wrecking shit isn't considered a niche btw.
JS, Mewtwo shouldn't be CMing when there's a Genesect still around and it doesn't even need to CM to 2HKO the metagame. (just wanted to nitpick that real quick)
Going to work backwards in response to Kyurem comments.
Haruno: I think you should reread my arguments, I wasn't contesting Kyurem's ability to wreck shit but his ability to find those free turns in order to do so.
Mag2: It may very well be a dumb statement, I can accept that. However, you'll need to justify a bit more why it shouldn't be placed as such to convince me. (mind you it's just a small afterthought, don't get too hung up on it as it is by no means what I am currently proposing or arguing)
As for Gliscor, he's got a really good typing that lets him take advantage of guys like Groudon, Terrakion, Zekrom, etc. along with great utility like Taunt and Poison Heal plus the nice speed. It pretty much wrecks Stall and a lot of other teams that give it too many free turns as once a mon is poisoned it can just Sub stall it to death.
Anik: Fair point concerning Ice Beam, not having to drop your SpAtk is a nice boon. One thing I want to point out, though, is that in each of these cases there are only slow offensive tanks that are mentioned. This is realistic so I have no problem with it but you also have to remember is that once Kyurem-W makes that kill there is going to be something faster coming in to revenge kill it. Anyways, I agree you have to predict less with Kyurem-W than these other Pokemon however my point is that it has a very difficult time finding the free turn to make that attack. (which wasn't explained in your scenario) This is why I brought up Dialga and Ho-Oh as comparisons, not as Pokemon that have equally good offensive coverage (they obviously don't), but as dangerous wallbreakers that can create free turns in the same handful of scenarios that Kyurem-W can, plus a whole lot more. (and offering shit tons more utility to the team) Even against the teams that it can create a fair number of free turns against (the slow defensive teams it's reputed for breaking) it'll be forced with a defensive backbone that forces it to predict (bulky Ice resists like Spdef Ogre and bulky Dragon resists like Ferrothorn, start factoring stuff like Jirachi and things get really messy) and hazards are going to put massive pressure on it to predict right as well as limit the number of times it gets to attack in general. (it's not too hard to outlast just by forcing it to Draco Meteor in dire circumstances) The LO set is a different animal (and one that hasn't received much attention, although I will admit it is my personal favorite) that now has to factor in that extra LO recoil and power drop. (Roost helps with LO but you lose your HP so fast with that SR weakness that it becomes really tricky to pull it off. Plus you waste your free turn just healing off passive damage and you can't roost spam in front of much.)
Quick nitpicks though: He didn't mention Sun so I calced Flare without it, still generally better off with one of the other coverage moves if you want to KO Tranner. Kyurem-W is 2HKO'd by Scarf Surf after SR so if it clicks Ice Beam as Kyogre comes in it won't be able to deliver the last two Ice Beams before being KO'd. Specs Ogre also has about 50% to OHKO with Hydro Pump after SR (although you have to factor 80% accuracy so it is shaky). Yes, you do manage to take a nice chunk out of these guys but you fail to make a KO off your free turn so you do need to predict. Also, Dialga's Specs Draco Meteor isn't easily absorbed by Ho-Oh, (252+ SpA Choice Specs Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 271-319 (65.3 - 76.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) there's a very strong chance that you'll 2HKO even after the drop. Even Regenerator is only healing off half that so Ho-Oh isn't getting away scott free from predicting the second DM. (plus it means you would have to add a third teammate to consider) Eplate Groudon has to win speed ties (so a 50/50) and Dialga has a spammable Dragon Pulse and Fire Blast, too. (plus sorta Thunder but Ground types are popular, oh and Dialga's Fire Blast is stronger than Kyu's Fusion Flare)
Again though, my problem isn't Kyurem's power but his ability to find the opportunities to abuse it. (as well of lack of defensive utility for the team)
Yeah... why did you ignore the comments made about its SmashPass set?_? The team is in my signature, but in case you don't know what a signature is, here is the link: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-shadow-of-the-illusionary-inferno.3486217/
The reason your SmashPass Kyurem-W got no attention is because it doesn't really contribute much to its ranking. The argument of SmashPass is not only silly because many pokemon become incredibly dangerous with +2/+2/+2 boosts anyway, but that SmashPass is also a form of support. Can you say Kyurem-W would still be as good, or as some players say even good at all, if it has no support from SmashPass? The Viability Rankings determine how self-sufficient a sweeper can be as well as how much a support Pokemon can contribute to the team. S-Rank Pokemon tend to do both of these very well. What we are trying to find out is how well Kyurem-W would function in the meta if it receives little to no support from teammates (this means no Rapid Spin as well, but we do tend to take weather into account), and how well it can help the team from a defensive standpoint via resistances, support moves, etc...
Kyurem-W, like Reshiram, offers almost nothing defensively (it at least resists Water), but has outstanding STAB. Kyurem-W has Ice STAB which is really powerful in Ubers (save Kyogre). This combined with sky-high Special Attack, above average Speed, its relative indifference to the weather (which would influence the power of many other Ubers in a positive or negative fashion) and killer coverage in Dragon + Fire/Ground/Fighting + Ice, these are all good points for Kyurem-W. The main reason Kyurem-W isn't as high as it would first seem is because of its defensive typing. It is vulnerable to any entry hazard on the field, so if those go down Kyurem-W would have a tougher time getting in and out of battle. This is the main reason why the Ho-oh comparison is made earlier: it hates Stealth Rock, but doesn't care about the other 2 hazards and has Regenerator to offset the damage and survive subsequent switch-ins, unlike Kyurem-W. The hazard weakness when you consider that while its speed isn't bad, it isn't spectacular either so it tends to get forced out by faster threats or after a use of Draco Meteor. Its weaknesses to Rock, Fighting, Dragon and Steel expose to many faster Pokemon: Palkia, Lati@s, Scarf Genesect, Arceus-Steel/Rock/Fighting, Terrakion, Kabutops, Excadrill, Mewtwo, and the like. Compared to Dialga as per mentioned earlier, while it boasts less killer offensive stats the amount of Pokemon that can strut right up after a KO to revenge Dialga is much shorter than that of Kyurem-W's list, largely due to its Dragon neutrality. These are factors we have to take into account when considering Kyurem-W's ranking.
both smashpassers are Low C
so basically you are trying to say that Kyurem-W needs support from a not very good mon in order to be effectve
Well, Smeargle should be B-rank in my opinion, but that's not happening because people hate SmashPass and thus hate to admit that it's a good team archetype. The only reason they are low C is because well... it was placed there by Melee Mewtwo and other SmashPass haters who rule this thread and think of it as their own. #Truth. Why is Smeargle a bad Pokemon? What other Pokemon can use a SmashPass set as effectively as it can? It certainly isn't outclassed. I don't understand your point here. How can Smeargle be bad when it's the more effective SmashPasser? Without Smeargle, SmashPass wouldn't be viable. (maybe with Gorebyss, but meh...)
Nobody said anything about hating SmashPass or it being bad, by all means it can work...it's just kinda predictable. In any case, Smeargle is where it is now because of its dependance on Spore and Focus Sash, you can't deny that. You can pick and choose any moves you want on Smeargle, but if you lack these 2 key components don't expect Smeargle to go very far. It is because of this reason that Smeargle becomes rather easy to play around: if your opponent cannot handle Smeargle I wouldn't expect them to stop a Darkrai. We're not even talking about how Smeargle becomes deadweight if its strategy is stopped. Taunt and Substitute just shuts Smeargle down completely, while Sleep Talkers just plough right through Smeargle anyway. Or I could lead off with something faster and break Smeargle's Sash, switch to something else after Spore, and either blast the recipient or even phase the boosts away. And don't try to make the argument that you have teammates to cover up its weaknesses, that alone means Smeargle needs plenty of support (as I have seen from your RMT), too much to be B-Rank. One niche alone isn't enough to make up for its shortcomings, mainly its piss poor stats.
We are looking at Kyurem-W as a whole, not just what a specific set can do without addressing the others. So Kyurem-W can arguably make use of SmashPass boosts more effectively than most other Pokemon (like, I dunno...Specs Kyogre? Arceus? Even Giratina-O who isn't hazards weak?). This would be fine and dandy, terrifying in fact, if Kyurem-W could do that by itself. But no, it needs to be passed the boosts, a privilege literally every Pokemon can make use of. This is less effective than boosting up on the spot, something many Pokemon like Mewtwo, every Arceus, Groudon, and Latias can do. You also claim Kyurem-W to be effective in SmashPass. Compared to Dialga who is also effective in SmashPass but can take on both defensive and offensive roles in other teams make it the more versatile threat overall (I think we need to stress this more). I urge you to use Kyurem-W outside of SmashPass and relay your experiences to us.
Other points you made, like Kyurem-W making Groudon viable in SmashPass (wut? Groudon is perfectly capable of holding its own), using Ancientpower to KO Ho-oh (most legendaries have access to Ancientpower anyway, nothing special, but you should really utilize SR to curb Ho-oh instead and save your moveslot in the first place), and custom EVs (What does that have to do with a Pokemon's viability? Since all pokemon can utilize custom EVs just like SmashPass, it shouldn't be an argument at all) are easily rebutted.
Honestly the fact that kyu-w has no safe switchins bar the pink blobs which means that even though it is unfortunately weak to hazards doesn't mean that it can't just press Draco meteor and expect soemthing to be heavily dented and/or fainted or the few that aren't like say ferro for instance, get wrecked by either fb or ep. I think that fact alone should make it B since unlike resh it isn't weather reliant and if we're going to bring up the whole needs anti hazard support for it to be at its most effective then we might as well bring Ho oh down since there is no doubt that it needs hazard removal even more than kyu-w since a half life Ho oh isn't anywhere near as dangerous as a full life one.
Ho-Oh's need for anti-hazard support is already taken into account in its ranking. If we ignore SR and add sun, CB Ho-Oh is at least as hard to switch into as Specs Kyogre (it's not quite as powerful, but on the other hand its strongest attacks remain at full power throughout the battle, and there is nothing that switches easily into Ho-Oh the way Gastrodon does into Kyogre, as that would require a physically bulky rock/flying type or rock type with levitate, and none exist) and simultaneously walls a large proportion of the specially attacking metagame, especially as Water moves/Thunder become weak/inconsistent in sun so that only Arceus-Rock can boast of easily KOing it with special attacks. And while Ho-Oh can be 2HKO'd by special attacks from various threats, most Pokemon with such offensive power will be OHKO'd by it. Add the fact that it regularly burns the physical attackers that would otherwise kill it more easily, and that if you do manage to force it out it heals an enormous 33% of its health without using a turn, meaning that even sets such as CB Ho-Oh that lack Roost cannot simply be worn down unless it is the last Pokemon remaining on the opponent's team. Without SR on the field Ho-Oh is an Ubers beast which none of the others can hope to rival and would need to be in a high S-rank above Kyogre and Arceus-Ghost, if not a rank entirely its own. Therefore, even despite needing support to perform at its best, its ranking is entirely warranted.
Tl;dr do not fuck with Ho-Oh. It is a magnificent phoenix and the Ubers metagame is very grateful for the ubiquity of Stealth Rock.
Also, I feel like the fact that Kyurem-White relies on Draco Meteor for a lot is being ignored. Yes, against the vast majority of teams it is an easy death button, but it neuters itself to the point of forcing itself out with regularity, and while this is admittedly true for most dragons that use Draco Meteor, it significantly compounds the hazard weakness (which is much less of an issue for Specs Dialga or Latios, for example). Yes, it gets Dragon Pulse, but many of the impressive KOs that have been used as an argument for it involve Draco Meteor, and it does need to use Draco Meteor relatively often.
All things considered, I believe mid or high B rank is fine for it. It is ridiculously threatening offensively, and most teams are unwilling to run one of the very few Pokemon that can switch into it, which means that anytime it manages to come in relatively safely, it will probably KO something. On the other hand, its speed, while still better than the common base 90, still leaves it forced out by a number of unboosted/Scarfless metagame threats. It is very vulnerable to every form of entry hazard, which is generally a significant disadvantage, but especially for a Pokemon which tends to run Choice items (or Life Orb) and Draco Meteor. Its above average bulk is also significantly compromised by a typing that could hardly be worse defensively, giving it very few resistances and weaknesses to common attacking types (making it hard to switch in and easy to force out). Again, the power is immense, and with significant support (whether smashpass or anti-hazard and paralysis) it is absolutely devastating, but without such support it finds itself switching in a very limited number of times, while having difficulty switching in due to being offensively threatened by many Pokemon and lacking resistances to switch into Choiced Pokemon and being forced out easily, either by offensive threats or by becoming set up fodder as it weakens.
Nominating Stunfisk for C- rank.
Stunfisk is a viable supporting pokemon on Ubers sand teams. Its excellent special bulk -- enough to survive a Life Orb Kyurem-W's Ice Beam at full health -- allows it to check Calm Mind Arceus forms that lack Refresh or Substitute; in particular Arceus-Rock and the dreaded Arceus-Ghost. It can support the team by spreading status and setting up Stealth Rock. While 81 special attack is poor by Ubers standards, it is strong enough to break the subs of frail sweepers such as Mewtwo with the move Earth Power. But perhaps Stunfisk's best attribute lie in its ability Sand Veil; after using Toxic against a special sweeper, it can proceed to spam Protect knowing that even if it fails to activate multiple times in a row, the opponent can easily miss. It also gives Stunfisk a good chance to beat Darkrai 1-1, as its moves won't damage Stunfisk much before a Nasty Plot boost and Dark Void will often miss. However, do not let Stunfisk's power lead you into thinking it is invincible. Its auspicious typing grants it weaknesses to common Water and Ground moves found in the tier, and means that Stunfisk matches up terribly with common weather setters. It is also weak to Grass moves and the ubiquitous Ice Beam. As Stunfisk is specially defensive, it cannot handle physical sweepers well at all. Finally, its lack of offensive presence makes it hazard bait for Ferrothorn and other common Spikes setters, though it can beat lead Sash Deoxys-A one on one. Overall, Stunfisk it good enough at spreading status and checking important threats to warrant consideration on Sand teams, so long it gets significant support.
Is nominating Stunfisk a thing? I've seen this kind of nom in other tiers already, though that doesn't make it any less hilarious.
what's wrong with nominating an uber among ubers?
Can you stop being such an attention seeker? Smashpass is taken into account already when we put Smeargle where he is. It really shows your maturity when you make comments like "SmashPass haters who rule this thread". Well, guess what, this thread IS ruled by people who think Smashpass is mediocre, people who are reputable in their abilities to play this game and comment on it. Maybe you should start accepting that people have different opinions to you.
I wouldn't mind putting Stunfisk on the list but it needs an analysis first. I want to avoid adding anything to the list that doesn't already have an analysis as having one allows me to ensure that it is at least viable and also to link the analysis in the front page. (I'm going to update the list with each mon linked soon, I'm just waiting on the recent discussion points to settle somewhat.)
Shouldn't we be consulting the almighty Stunfisk user trickroom on his matter?
The viability list has been updated. The changes are:
Scizor dropped down to high C rank: Even fans of it felt it was niche.
Espeon rose up to low C rank: It's only viable on standard Sun offense (while having competition for the role) which makes it incredibly niche. However, this is a very relevant niche, so...
Genesect dropped down to mid A rank: I know this wasn't really unanimous but the majority that I spoke to were either supportive or indifferent. Since high A is the closest to S rank and S rank is reserved for Pokemon that excel in both offensive and defensive roles (among other things), I feel that even an excellent specialist like Genesect shouldn't be placed that high.
Tornadus-T rose up to mid B rank: Talked about this already, no opposition.
Arceus-Dragon dropped down to high C rank: Based on a conversation on IRC, didn't bring it up here since it was pretty much settled there.
Tornadus rose up to low B rank: Brought up during an IRC discussion like Arceus-Dragon. Hurricane with Prankster Taunt and Tailwind is good shit.
Beartic was added to mid C rank: It's a really fast Ice type that can use Encore fairly easily to nab Swords Dances. Sadly, Ice types have a shitty defensive typing and it relies on Rain. Plus it's kinda weak without the Swords Dance as it doesn't get a power boost from Rain like other Swift Swimmers.
Victreebel was added to mid D rank: It's a Venusaur.
Along with Pokemon changes there were other changes made to the list. Each Pokemon has been linked to the their respective onsite analysis making the list even more convenient for newer players. There has also been a change of the ranking descriptions. The previous ones sometimes oversimplified things to the point of being unclear and misleading. (You can't sum up a mon with it's potential to sweep or wall, even tacking on support doesn't quite cut it.) I've worked with the guys on IRC to revamp these descriptions while remaining true to the idea behind the initial ones. Every Pokemon that fit into a specific rank under the original version should still remain in the exact same place under the new ones. The goal is to make things more clear and understandable, not change the requirements. If you feel that they have not accomplished this goal please voice your concerns. For reference the original definitions were:
Hide (Move your mouse to the hide area to reveal the content)
Also, I want to point out that just because changes were made does not make them permanent. If you feel like something was wrongly displaced or that anything else on the list is misplaced go ahead and say so.
The more I look at each rank's description, the more I feel Dialga could slot into S-Rank. It pulls off both defensive sets and offensive sets with aplomb.
The defensive sets has a good defensive typing with only 2 weaknesses, not weak to Dragon or Dark (which is a far cry compared to most anything else that can be considered defensive), and resists tons of stuff. It also has a good support movepool: Stealth Rock is great on Dialga as it can support the team without forcing them to run something like Groudon (interferes with weather other than Sun) or Forretress (gives up offensive momentum). It has both Roar and Dragon Tail which Giratina-A also has, except Dialga doesn't have a ton of debilitating weaknesses nor does it hit like a sissy. Arceus-Steel is likely to give Dialga the most competition due to great speed, Recover and a boosting move, but its STAB has poor coverage and has no immediate phazing move (Perish Song eh) while Dialga has Dragon STAB which pummels shit even if uninvested.
Offensive sets though, oh boy. Not only do they have killer power and coverage (STAB Dragon + Fire + Fighting/Ground from base 150 SpA = gg), but they have great bulk and are super resistant to hazards, unlike some wallbreakers (Kyurem-W, Mewtwo to an extent?). It is slow though (though Scarf can fix that issue somewhat), but when it can take the majority of attacks lobbed its way Dialga usually comes out on top in the exchange. Even mixed sets can take an opponent by surprise, as Dialga has the power to Outrage special walls and has the, well, bulk to make use of Bulk Up to perform a bulky-boosting role, which can prove to be difficult for even Groudon to take down.
I really don't see how a team can't get better without a Dialga in it if they use it right, as it is versatile enough to perform damn near any role you want it to and does it well, as it provides so much while costing very little (Fighting + Ground weakness is super easy to compensate). Defensive, Wallbreaker, Scarfer, Bulky-boosting, Mixed...if you don't call this a good glue Pokemon I don't know what is.
Supporting, Dialga is absolutely amazing. It gets Stealth Rock (unlike other support mons like Lugia), brutal Dragon Stab, and Fire Blast (would Latios kill for that)! Its Scarf set is a great answer for Darkrai in Sun, as any of its three moves (Fire Blast, Aura Sphere, Draco Meteor) will kill it after Darkrai has put it to sleep. Because Scarf Dialga is uncommon, the opponent will rarely Focus Blast you on the switch. Dialga is slower than most scarfers anyway and has enough speed to easily surpass 400 with a Scarf, so it can afford to run a Modest nature, increasing its power. I consider Dialga the third best Scarf user in Ubers due to that raw power, resistance to hazards, and ability to beat up Darkrai. The Specs set is unwallable if the opponent lacks a pink blob and Dialga separates itself from Kyurem-W due to its immunity to Toxic Spikes and resistance to SR, whereas Kyurem-W needs Spin/Magic Bounce support to be of any use mid to late game. Support is great, only offensive Groudon can consistently stop it from setting up SR as both Magic Bouncers hate Dialga that have been sufficiently sped crept to outrun Xatu, neither can touch support Dialga while Dialga badly wounds them back. It can run phazing moves and both Thunder Wave and Toxic, allowing it to further support the team. Max speed LO Dialga can even surprise the annoying Earth Plate Groudon running around!
Resttalk Bulk Up sets with maxed out special defense are a nightmare to take down as a last mon standing pokemon, due to that great bulk and typing; it is incredibly hard to 2HKO after a Bulk Up if you lack a fighting move, allowing it to complete a resttalk cycle and go back to sleep. With hazards on the field, this set can slowly destroy the opponent. Finally, Air Balloon Dialga is another nasty surprise for Groudon, as it can switch into Earthquake and start throwing around powerful attacks. NOTHING can wall all of Dialga's sets...Pink blobs are set-up bait for Bulk Up sets and Tyranitar can get blasted by Aura Sphere. Dialga gets Thunder too, further increasing its chances of beating Kyogre and Tentacruel. Because Dialga can check so many threats depending on the set, beat most Ubers mons 1-1, and has versatility that only Arceus formes and Kyogre can match (maybe Palkia too), I fully support Dialga for S rank. That typing is icing on the cake.
Keldeo need to be on the ranking list, so nominating Keldeo to C- , my experiences to it is limited, but I know that it has a lot of problems in Uber. Lati@s, Giratina, and Mewtwo wall/destroy it badly. It also doesn't resist Espeed, unlike his cousin Terrakion and face stiff competition with rain sweepers like Kabutops and Palkia in general, not to mention 129 Special Atk just isn't enough compare to 150s. However, taunt is something pretty neat to annoy stall and that works well with CM, Sacred Sword allow it to destroy Ferrothorn, so not all is lost. And C- seems perfect.
Dropping Froslass to C, I really don't understand how it can be in B at the moment. It can lead and set up Spikes, sure, but EVERY scarfer can limit it to one layer due to it fragility, not to mention a large number of pokemon still outspeed it without scarf like Mewtwo, Skaymin-S, Terrakion, and EVERY Arceus form. Of course, Spikes+Spin Block is something unique, but it is not like you can block very long since it usually dies quickly, Deoxy-S and sturdy custap spiker leads are usually better outside of spin block, meaning that it is a very niche monster that will not be outclassed only on a small number of teams. So it should be C.
For S-ranking Dialga, Punchshroom and other supporters do have their points, but I feel like that it does not usually sweep (only Bulk up as a set up move and that it is slow), it does not wall a lot of things extremely well (this is due to the fact that most monsters in uber has either a earth or ground coverage moves, or they have a powerful STAB Dragon attack, and that 100/120/100 is great but still not the bulkiest thing around). For example,
252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Dialga: 180-213 (44.55 - 52.72%) -- 27.34% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Zekrom Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 306-361 (75.74 - 89.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Dialga: 239-283 (59.15 - 70.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I mean you can defeat these monster but you also badly damaged. Now don't get me wrong, it is still a great pokemon, but I feel like it is a monster that can take a first hit or two (as again you are slow), KO the opponent but it is easy to KO you back with a next pokemon. SR is great but there are other pokemon that can fulfill the role of "SR setter with offensive presence not name Groudon" like Landorus-T and Bulky Excadrill. SR resist +TS immune is also great, but you are still weak to Spikes unfortunately. All in all, it is still an excellent monster, but has just a bit of flaw that prevent it to be a king.
I don't mind Dialga being S-Rank; however, I think if there's a pokemon that deserve S-Rank more, that's Groudon.
Its ability alone is a reason to put him into S-Rank. It gives a boost to various fire-types in the metagame, making Ho-Oh the beast he is, making Reshiram much more threatening, enabling Heatran to wall various threats. It also helps to combat rain-based teams (as well as sand). When you build a rain team, the first thing you must think of is to counter Groudon. Besides Kyogre's Drizzle, no other pokemon defines Uber as much as Groudon.
His support set is one of the best defensive check to Physical Rayquaza (imo only Lugia and Cresselia are better for this, but they aren't well adapted to the metagame), and counter most if not all of the physical sweepers in the meta. It's a very good paralysis spreader as well, catching lati@s, Skymin, Arceus-Grass or Lugia on the switch.
Groudon can go on the offensive as well, KOing Skarmory and friends that think they can set up on him.
His rock polish set may be rare, but is very threatening, and with Groudon's bulk he can survive extremespeeds and bullet punches. With the access to the game's strongest earthquake, he can OHKO a lot of offensive pokemon that are neutral to ground with only the help of SR.
It can also get past most of his counters: Paradancer set against Lugia, SD+Lum Berry for Giratina, etc.
Sure, Groudon has some flaws, which are: low speed, low special defense, and lack of recovery. Hippowdon, Arceus-Ground, and Landorus-T give him a little competition, but Hippowdon brings sand instead of sun, using another Arceus form might be more benificial, and Landorus-T cannot stop things such as Extremekiller.
In conclusion, I agree with Groudon and Dialga being A+, but if Dialga is promoted to S rank, then Groudon should be as well, because Groudon shapes the metagame much more than Dialga.
Groudon has a bit of problem that I can see why it can't be S. Offensively, unlike Kyogre in which its STAB is boosted by the weather it summons, Drought does not boost the power of EQ and this in turn make Groudon hits a lot weaker than Kyogre. Moreover, very few things actually immune to Water, meaning Kyogre can very often badly damage or at the very least scratch a resist with water attack, while a lot of pokemon are immune to EQ. This in turn make Groudon quite a bit easier to switch into compare to Kyogre. Only Grass Arceus, Latias, Palkia, Special defensive Giratina and Dialga, Ferrothorn, and the pink blob can switch into Kyogre water moves somewhat comfortably, and the later three can't even take full power Specs Sprout. Groudon, on the other hand, has plenty of easy switch in: Giratina, Lugia, Grass, Ground, Fighting and other Arceus form that can hit back Super Effectively, Defensive Normal Arceus, Giratina-O, Gliscor, Landorus-T, Kyogre, Hippowdon, and even things like Lati@s and Skaymin-S can attempt to switch in EQ and KO back.
Support and defensive wise, SR, thunder wave, and phazing are all great and that is why it is A+, but is not like you have spikes or rapid spin and a lot of other pokemon get these support moves Groudon has too. And as you mentioned before, it has low speed and special defense by Uber standard, and there are a lot of ways to revenge it. While Drought is meta defining, Groudon still require little support from the team to function, it cannot destroy entire team easily nor can it wall most things in the tier, that's why it can't be S
That's the problem. Groudon's power cannot even be compared to Kyogre. That's why I said Groudon's rank is appropriate. But I won't be against him being S-Rank. He supports better than other pokemons, with Drought being beneficial for the whole team. He has two set-up moves that destroy various teams, who think that Groudon is running a defensive set.
Besides, I was debating Groudon vs Dialga, not vs Kyogre.
Some people want to promote Dialga to S-Rank, but imo, Dialga shouldn't be higher than Groudon, with the arguments I expressed on my last post.
Dialga sure has versatility, but can he wall a lot of threats in Uber? His support set is meant to absorb resisted hits (or weaker hits), such as Kyogre's choice scarf Ice Beam. On the other hand, support Groudon can switch into any Terrakion, Ekiller or various non choice band Outrages, and OHKO back or phaze while surviving the 1vs1. Dialga cannot take many neutral hits. Other dragons have a decent shot at 2HKOing Dialga with their STAB moves. Both don't have recovery besides leftovers.
Groudon can sweep late game with Rock Polish or/and Sword Dance, but Dialga's only set that can clean up late game is the Scarf Set (seriously, pretty much any scarfers can do that), and by using BulkUp+ Resttalk. Tell me who managed to use this set succesfully in this metagame.
Dialga can punch holes with Specs/Life Orb, but any team with the pink blobs, Lugia, tank Ho-Oh (not in rain), SpDef Kyogre (if you avoid Thunder), Heatran, Arceus-Rock in sand, Jirachi in rain can wall it. Outrage helps against some of those pokemon, though. Have you tried Banded Groudon? Sure, you need to predict well, instead of spamming Draco Meteors, but actually the only surefire counters are Landorus-T, Cresselia, and Hippowdon (2,34% chance of 2HKO), physically defensive Giratina, and lol 252/252+ Arceus.
In addition, if Dialga was promoted, when unexperienced players look at this thread, they might think that they must absolutely find a check to Dialga (which they should do), but countering Groudon is even more important. Basically, Groudon has an easier time getting past his counters than Dialga.
Dialga is a powerful pokemon, but does NOT shape the metagame. It's Dialga who adapted to the metagame, but it's Groudon and Kyogre who are defining it.
Edit: C Rank is too low for Froslass. Froslass is a spiker who can beat Deoxys-S. If you lead with Deoxys against a Froslaass, either you break Froslass' Focus Sash and die afterwoods (Icy Wind+Shadow Ball is enough, and you're outsped after a speed drop), either you set up a layer, and begin the match 5vs6 against a sashed Froslass. Espeon and Xatu cannot come on this either, and only Froslass can set up spikes against Forretress. B- is more appropriate, imo.
That comparison is ridiculous, if you want to compare Groudon and Kyogre one-dimensionally (I do not see why you would; if either were one-dimensional Pokemon hardly anyone would argue for them to be S-rank) at least do so fairly. Half the Pokemon listed cannot switch into a Choice Band Earthquake; arguing that anything less than Choice Band is weaker than Choice Specs is self-evident and redundant. And if Kyogre deserves a mention as a Groudon switchin, then Rayquaza, Arceus-Water, Arceus-Dragon and Giratina-O (and maybe Kyurem-W/Kyurem-B too, after all a full power Specs Water Spout assumes no SR) deserve mention as Kyogre switchins. Gastrodon, the single safest switchin can also hardly be ignored.
Nonetheless, no, Groudon cannot run an effective Choice Band set, as Kyogre can a Choice Specs set. However, Specs Water Spout is only a small part of the reason Kyogre is S-Rank (many things in the metagame can run a Choice Band or Choice Specs set and be very difficult to switch into). Where Groudon lacks immediate power, it has a completely superior arsenal of set up moves, and is able to devastate offensive teams with Rock Polish, or more defensive teams with Swords Dance (and virtually any team if it ever manages to set up both). In fact, if we compare the aggregate of its sets, Groudon has almost as few solid checks or counters in one Pokemon as Kyogre does; many defensive checks fall to Swords Dance sets, while many offensive ones are outsped and OHKO'd if it uses Rock Polish. Its ability to run numerous quite different sets makes it quite unpredictable and dangerous, and while Kyogre can also run a variety of effective sets, the most threatening ones are the ones which are expected and which every team is prepared for (not to mention that they share many checks with the other ones), whereas people are commonly less prepared for offensive Groudon and rarely expect it.
Add to its ability to function as a cleaner, wallbreaker or support mon the fact that it has Drought, and it is a very capable, versatile mon in its own respect that can significantly support teams with its ability alone, much like Kyogre. Whether sun or rain is a superior weather condition is another matter, but not one I wish to bring up as I know it will result in enormous disagreement and probably few (if any) changed opinions once the debating is done. It is for all these reasons that I believe Groudon is S-rank. Kyogre may have ridiculous power that Groudon cannot match, but Groudon gets other tools that it does not and without significant support it cannot sweep well-built teams either (nor wall most of the tier with a defensive set).
Blue Jay has an excellent point (or maybe my skimming gave me something else but whatevs), we shouldn't be comparing Groudon to Kyogre. Kyogre is not the definition of S rank, just a member in it. (nothing again you sammao, I was doing the exact same thing like 5 mins ago, lol)
I'll make a real response once I find myself with more time. Currently, I'm on the high A side of the fence.
Also, I'll try to get Keldeo in soon. (I forgot about him, is there any other mon that has an analysis and isn't already up?)