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Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]
- Thread starter MMII
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Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
lmao I'm calling effyouzion a troll. Edgar is a great ubers player and contributor. 3K PLAYERS NEED BREAKS :]
Here is some food for thought (This time my keyboard won't auto post half way through ¬_¬)
Rayquaza B+ >>>>> A-
I've heard people call Rayquaza underrated, and I agree with them. Rayquaza can actually offer good utility to a team, with its great wallbreaking power and its abilities to do other things like anti-lead Deoxys-S, clean up late game, add some powerful extra priority (leaving your team less weak to mons in general) while also somewhat checking those troublesome mons like Blaziken. I've seen a fair few teams end up weak to Rayquaza these days (not like its easy to check, another added bonus) as it hits extremely hard even unboosted. It does find it challenging to find a set-up opportunity however, which is why I'd like to hear if other people feel Rayquaza deserves a bump.
Rayquaza B+ >>>>> A-
I've heard people call Rayquaza underrated, and I agree with them. Rayquaza can actually offer good utility to a team, with its great wallbreaking power and its abilities to do other things like anti-lead Deoxys-S, clean up late game, add some powerful extra priority (leaving your team less weak to mons in general) while also somewhat checking those troublesome mons like Blaziken. I've seen a fair few teams end up weak to Rayquaza these days (not like its easy to check, another added bonus) as it hits extremely hard even unboosted. It does find it challenging to find a set-up opportunity however, which is why I'd like to hear if other people feel Rayquaza deserves a bump.
I actually disclaimed all of what you said in my post if you read it. BP is a fairly viable gimmick like Swagplay is, and it has a good match-up against all of the other alt-win gimmicks because it has access to Minimize which trolls everything pretty much. You need something decent on your team for BP or it will cause you trouble which shows that it's good enough to influence team considerations. The only thing that truly annoys BP as I've witnessed so far is Taunt Yveltal, but there are 50/50 situations which can allow you to overcome it.
Mew is viable in Ubers in one way or another. It has almost every boosting move you can think of + Baton Pass, but then it also has a lot of other good things going for it like Stealth Rock, Defog, Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, Softboiled, etc, with 100 stats across the board. All in all, it's just a good, versatile pokemon but its main niche is Baton Pass.
Chain BP just dies to crits.
Evasion BP when used by a good exploitative team and by a "skilled" player is theoretically unbeatable unless you have something with Haze.
Rayquaza is pretty awsm, but I don't know about A-. Priority is nice to have, it can blast through many defensive teams, can kinda check some top threats like Kyogre and Mega Blaze, is ground immune and fucks with Sticky Web, and has relatively low opportunity cost since it doesn't use a Mega / Arceus and preforms independent of weather (weather abusing teams are basically gone, but it is still an advantage). It can be difficult to set up though, and the SR weakness + LO recoil makes it much frailer than it should be. V-Create is a fantastic move, however not being 100% acc is highly annoying (when will Game Freak learn that any move without 100% accuracy ends up being worse than Splash when you actually need it). For now I think Rayquaza is best at B+ because it perfectly fits the B Rank criterion.
Evasion BP when used by a good exploitative team and by a "skilled" player is theoretically unbeatable unless you have something with Haze.
Rayquaza is pretty awsm, but I don't know about A-. Priority is nice to have, it can blast through many defensive teams, can kinda check some top threats like Kyogre and Mega Blaze, is ground immune and fucks with Sticky Web, and has relatively low opportunity cost since it doesn't use a Mega / Arceus and preforms independent of weather (weather abusing teams are basically gone, but it is still an advantage). It can be difficult to set up though, and the SR weakness + LO recoil makes it much frailer than it should be. V-Create is a fantastic move, however not being 100% acc is highly annoying (when will Game Freak learn that any move without 100% accuracy ends up being worse than Splash when you actually need it). For now I think Rayquaza is best at B+ because it perfectly fits the B Rank criterion.
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
Phazing tends to handle evasion BP I think
Ingrain, Magic Coat, and Magic Bounce all exist.
Dragon Tail is obviously useless.
Not all teams have phaze moves anyways.
Prediction = glorified luck.
I don't know why BP was even mentioned as it is completely off topic to slotting each mon's viability.
The list still has not been updated. :/
A Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon with impressive offensive or defensive capability. These Pokemon are typically the first to be considered to fulfill certain roles and have very little opportunity cost. They require little support to function and may have significant utility.
Rayquaza sits at 150 base Attack and Special Attack and has a good movepool with strong coverage moves. Moves like V-Create (180 Base Power) and Outrage (120 Base Power) give this pokemon almost perfect coverage in two incredibly strong moves. His ability Air Lock provides great utility in shutting down weather sweepers, or neutralizing potential weather threats. While not as effective this Gen due to the weather nerf it is still a good ability as weather mons like Kyogre and Groudon are very common. Rayquaza is primarily known as a wallbreaker, smashing through nearly everything in one or two hits. Switch ins are limited as V-Create kills Steel and Fairy types while Outrage breaks the rest. Extremespeed is a valuable priority move allowing Rayquaza to revenge kill nicely. He then has the option of running a large variety of coverage moves, including Special moves. His Speed stat (95) allows him to outspeed the large amount of Base 95s in the tier. He can run a large amount of great items from Life Orb to Draco Plate, and is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. The only support truly required to use Rayquaza is clearing out Xerneas and Palkia both of whom can outspeed and kill Rayquaza, and also removing Stealth Rocks to give Rayquaza more longevity. He fits on various team archetypes such as Sticky Web, Trick Room (I am using a team now that I consider to be successful), Hyper Offense, Balanced or simply to provide a hard hitting physical powerhouse.
In terms of opportunity cost he does have some frail defenses and often dies quickly, but given the chance to set up, or with a good prediction Rayquaza will knock valuable teeth out and turn the game around quickly. Other pokemon to fulfill Ray's role (physical wallbreakers) would be Rock Polish Life Orb Groudon, Zekrom, Mega-Mewtwo-X and Band-Oh. Zekrom is almost forced to run Choice Scarf to outspeed potential threats, RP LO Groudon dies quickly and has more hard checks and counters than Rayquaza, Mega-Mewtwo-X is less common than its other variants (opportunity cost) and Band-Oh is strong, but has x4 weakness switching in on Rocks which hinders it. I do not intend to say Ray is better than these pokemon, what I am attempting to say (and likely failing, gawd what a scrub) is that Rayquaza finds himself a niche among these other wallbreakers as a strong set-up/suicidal wallbreaker not reliant on Taunt.
Ray is often the one supporting teammates by punching holes in the opposing team. Support for setting up would simply be clearing potential threats that could hinder him such as GeoXern or FairyCeus. Otherwise he finds himself many potential opportunities to set-up a Dragon Dance or Sword Dance, and then punch a hole or two before dying from residual damage or priority.
TL;DR
Rayquaza is a great wallbreaker and is capable of usage on many different archetypes. Supporting Nayrz post nominating Ray to A-
Reserved for Pokemon with impressive offensive or defensive capability. These Pokemon are typically the first to be considered to fulfill certain roles and have very little opportunity cost. They require little support to function and may have significant utility.
Rayquaza sits at 150 base Attack and Special Attack and has a good movepool with strong coverage moves. Moves like V-Create (180 Base Power) and Outrage (120 Base Power) give this pokemon almost perfect coverage in two incredibly strong moves. His ability Air Lock provides great utility in shutting down weather sweepers, or neutralizing potential weather threats. While not as effective this Gen due to the weather nerf it is still a good ability as weather mons like Kyogre and Groudon are very common. Rayquaza is primarily known as a wallbreaker, smashing through nearly everything in one or two hits. Switch ins are limited as V-Create kills Steel and Fairy types while Outrage breaks the rest. Extremespeed is a valuable priority move allowing Rayquaza to revenge kill nicely. He then has the option of running a large variety of coverage moves, including Special moves. His Speed stat (95) allows him to outspeed the large amount of Base 95s in the tier. He can run a large amount of great items from Life Orb to Draco Plate, and is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. The only support truly required to use Rayquaza is clearing out Xerneas and Palkia both of whom can outspeed and kill Rayquaza, and also removing Stealth Rocks to give Rayquaza more longevity. He fits on various team archetypes such as Sticky Web, Trick Room (I am using a team now that I consider to be successful), Hyper Offense, Balanced or simply to provide a hard hitting physical powerhouse.
In terms of opportunity cost he does have some frail defenses and often dies quickly, but given the chance to set up, or with a good prediction Rayquaza will knock valuable teeth out and turn the game around quickly. Other pokemon to fulfill Ray's role (physical wallbreakers) would be Rock Polish Life Orb Groudon, Zekrom, Mega-Mewtwo-X and Band-Oh. Zekrom is almost forced to run Choice Scarf to outspeed potential threats, RP LO Groudon dies quickly and has more hard checks and counters than Rayquaza, Mega-Mewtwo-X is less common than its other variants (opportunity cost) and Band-Oh is strong, but has x4 weakness switching in on Rocks which hinders it. I do not intend to say Ray is better than these pokemon, what I am attempting to say (and likely failing, gawd what a scrub) is that Rayquaza finds himself a niche among these other wallbreakers as a strong set-up/suicidal wallbreaker not reliant on Taunt.
Ray is often the one supporting teammates by punching holes in the opposing team. Support for setting up would simply be clearing potential threats that could hinder him such as GeoXern or FairyCeus. Otherwise he finds himself many potential opportunities to set-up a Dragon Dance or Sword Dance, and then punch a hole or two before dying from residual damage or priority.
TL;DR
Rayquaza is a great wallbreaker and is capable of usage on many different archetypes. Supporting Nayrz post nominating Ray to A-
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
You've forgotten about mentioning Extremespeed. The ability to kill weakened things that are faster than it such as xern is invaluable. Because of the nuclear power of V-create it's not set-up bait for xern; however, after the speed drop, it is, since it can threaten with moonblast as well as geomancy (outplaying the coinflip territory unless you have a strong handle on it) which really sucks a lot
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
that's exactly what I meant
Mentioned it, but not enough. ESpeed certainly gives Ray some extra value as you said.
Palkia is 2HKOed by Specs Thunder and it can't OHKO with it's own Thunder in return, so it's not a better check to Specs Kyogre than sp.def Giratina-A. The point is that EKiller can run anything from Earthquake, Brick Break, Overheat and Recover (or even Ice Beam if you REALLY REALLY hate Lando-T and Groudon) and beat all of its counters with the correct move.
Also, Reshiram for C+. It's one of the best sun abusers in the game, and Specs Blue Flare is something you don't want to take, unless your name is Tyranitar or Kyogre. And as I've said before. The SubRoost set is great in sand and sun, since it gets almost unresisted STAB moves and can sometimes kill 2 Pokemon if it manages to set up a Substitute at the right time (unless it's raining). I'm just gonna leave this here.
Also, Reshiram for C+. It's one of the best sun abusers in the game, and Specs Blue Flare is something you don't want to take, unless your name is Tyranitar or Kyogre. And as I've said before. The SubRoost set is great in sand and sun, since it gets almost unresisted STAB moves and can sometimes kill 2 Pokemon if it manages to set up a Substitute at the right time (unless it's raining). I'm just gonna leave this here.
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 264-312 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 396-466 (100.5 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 127-150 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (meaning that if reshiram's behind a sub, kyogre usually loses unless it runs scarf)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Reshiram Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 291-343 (85 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 264-312 (67.1 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 396-466 (100.7 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Groudon in Sun: 424-499 (104.9 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Groudon in Sun: 634-747 (156.9 - 184.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 88 HP / 4 SpD Arceus: 220-261 (54.5 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 88 HP / 4 SpD Arceus: 331-391 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 88 HP / 4 SpD Arceus in Sun: 498-586 (123.5 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 396-466 (100.5 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 127-150 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (meaning that if reshiram's behind a sub, kyogre usually loses unless it runs scarf)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Reshiram Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 291-343 (85 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 264-312 (67.1 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 396-466 (100.7 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Groudon in Sun: 424-499 (104.9 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Groudon in Sun: 634-747 (156.9 - 184.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 88 HP / 4 SpD Arceus: 220-261 (54.5 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 88 HP / 4 SpD Arceus: 331-391 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 88 HP / 4 SpD Arceus in Sun: 498-586 (123.5 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Nominating Victini to B Rank (Mid or Low)
Victini is a small, rather cute pokemon, but it can be incredibly devastating to certain common pokemon in the Ubers tier. It can be used to counter GeoXern and MMY (Trick Room set), revenge kill with its insanely powerful STAB and Final Gambit (Choice Scarf set), or even to blow holes in anything not named Sunkern (Choice Band set). Offensively it has decent coverage in V-Create and Bolt Strike, catching common switch-ins like Kyogre and Ho-Oh. It also has access to U-Turn allowing it to safely run away from potential checks and counters. It also has several good special moves such as Focus Blast, Blue Flare and Grass Knot. Other than hazards and weather support Victini can reliably support itself (Trick Room set) allowing it to get 5 turns of destruction, destroying much of the speed-creeping tier. Victini can come in on many pokemon it threatens, or even those who aren’t sure whether to be scared or fight (GeoXern) and proceed to either ruin them, or pivot out with U-Turn.
Victini does have some issues, it requires hazard support, both in clearing them and in setting them which can cause a bit of a dilemma when running a defog user. Victini also loves the sun allowing it to gain far more O/2HKOs. It is threatened strongly by hefty priority users such as GroundCeus, Yveltal and EKiller. Kyogre can come in on a V-Create with ease and shut down a potential sweep. It also becomes more difficult to use against Defensive archetypes who generally have resists to Fire/Electric coverage, and can rack up hazard damage. By running Victini you are limiting your choices of other Fire type pokemon, notably Ho-Oh, and also physical attackers. It also means relying on hazards more than other teams might.
However, Victini has some strong offensive prowess, and has little opportunity cost. It requires a bit of support, but not an excessive amount. It also serves a certain niche, being able to check, threaten, or generally massacre many common pokemon in the Uber tier.
Cute Little Killer for B Rank.
Victini is a small, rather cute pokemon, but it can be incredibly devastating to certain common pokemon in the Ubers tier. It can be used to counter GeoXern and MMY (Trick Room set), revenge kill with its insanely powerful STAB and Final Gambit (Choice Scarf set), or even to blow holes in anything not named Sunkern (Choice Band set). Offensively it has decent coverage in V-Create and Bolt Strike, catching common switch-ins like Kyogre and Ho-Oh. It also has access to U-Turn allowing it to safely run away from potential checks and counters. It also has several good special moves such as Focus Blast, Blue Flare and Grass Knot. Other than hazards and weather support Victini can reliably support itself (Trick Room set) allowing it to get 5 turns of destruction, destroying much of the speed-creeping tier. Victini can come in on many pokemon it threatens, or even those who aren’t sure whether to be scared or fight (GeoXern) and proceed to either ruin them, or pivot out with U-Turn.
Victini does have some issues, it requires hazard support, both in clearing them and in setting them which can cause a bit of a dilemma when running a defog user. Victini also loves the sun allowing it to gain far more O/2HKOs. It is threatened strongly by hefty priority users such as GroundCeus, Yveltal and EKiller. Kyogre can come in on a V-Create with ease and shut down a potential sweep. It also becomes more difficult to use against Defensive archetypes who generally have resists to Fire/Electric coverage, and can rack up hazard damage. By running Victini you are limiting your choices of other Fire type pokemon, notably Ho-Oh, and also physical attackers. It also means relying on hazards more than other teams might.
However, Victini has some strong offensive prowess, and has little opportunity cost. It requires a bit of support, but not an excessive amount. It also serves a certain niche, being able to check, threaten, or generally massacre many common pokemon in the Uber tier.
Cute Little Killer for B Rank.
Pros
- Can semi-support itself (Trick Room set)
- Can check/counter GeoXern, MMY (Trick Room set)
- Has good base 100 stats across the board
- Has great offensive STAB
- Provides good pivot with U-Turn, either Scarfed or Trick Room
- Can run Physical or Special moves (Blue Flare, Psychic[lol], Focus Blast)
- Good revenger with Choice Scarf and Final Gambit/V-Create giving it almost unresisted revenging coverage
Cons:
- Weakness to all types of hazards limits the amount of times it can switch in/out
- Fire/Electric coverage resisted by common mons like Zekrom and Giratina-O
- Needs Defog/Spin support due to x2 Stealth Rocks weakness
- Sun support is almost mandatory for Victini in order to achieve Kos
- Can semi-support itself (Trick Room set)
- Can check/counter GeoXern, MMY (Trick Room set)
- Has good base 100 stats across the board
- Has great offensive STAB
- Provides good pivot with U-Turn, either Scarfed or Trick Room
- Can run Physical or Special moves (Blue Flare, Psychic[lol], Focus Blast)
- Good revenger with Choice Scarf and Final Gambit/V-Create giving it almost unresisted revenging coverage
Cons:
- Weakness to all types of hazards limits the amount of times it can switch in/out
- Fire/Electric coverage resisted by common mons like Zekrom and Giratina-O
- Needs Defog/Spin support due to x2 Stealth Rocks weakness
- Sun support is almost mandatory for Victini in order to achieve Kos
Okay two changes:
Rayquaza has been moved to A-: Underappreciated Pokemon that like no one really prepares for anymore. Has basically no good switch-ins aside from fast Lugia and Water/Rock Arceus, forces switches easily enough to set up SD or DD (which is still good since the Scarfers that outspeed it are very rare now, just use V-create) or just go mixed and Draco stuff. Not terribly good defensively but still has some useful resistances and immunity to Ground/Sticky Web is very nice. Air Lock isn't as useful but with Sand teams (hi Problems) making something of a comeback its more useful than one might think, and being able to setup in front of Choice Scarf Kyogre Water Spout is a very useful quality indeed. Can't spam Outrage too much but doesn't really need it either when it has V-create which does like 80 to GeoXern and OHKOes physically defensive sets after SD. Extreme Speed is the real clincher here as it adds revenge killing utility a lot of pure wallbreakers lack. Doesn't require too much support, just give it a switch opportunity and it will probably break something in half. Overall A- fits well, a lot of you support it and frankly I do too as Ray is still super scary lol.
"Any Pokemon Rejected For An Analysis" Added to Chansey Rank (THIS INCLUDES METAGROSS)
edit - Cresselia has been removed - Doesn't have an analysis and has basically no niche outside of hardcountering Groudon, which can be checked by more useful Pokemon. Inability to check EKiller sucks a lot too. Mostly outclassed by Lugia as a wall.
Discuss Breloom and Victini since it looks like they may be getting analyses.
Rayquaza has been moved to A-: Underappreciated Pokemon that like no one really prepares for anymore. Has basically no good switch-ins aside from fast Lugia and Water/Rock Arceus, forces switches easily enough to set up SD or DD (which is still good since the Scarfers that outspeed it are very rare now, just use V-create) or just go mixed and Draco stuff. Not terribly good defensively but still has some useful resistances and immunity to Ground/Sticky Web is very nice. Air Lock isn't as useful but with Sand teams (hi Problems) making something of a comeback its more useful than one might think, and being able to setup in front of Choice Scarf Kyogre Water Spout is a very useful quality indeed. Can't spam Outrage too much but doesn't really need it either when it has V-create which does like 80 to GeoXern and OHKOes physically defensive sets after SD. Extreme Speed is the real clincher here as it adds revenge killing utility a lot of pure wallbreakers lack. Doesn't require too much support, just give it a switch opportunity and it will probably break something in half. Overall A- fits well, a lot of you support it and frankly I do too as Ray is still super scary lol.
"Any Pokemon Rejected For An Analysis" Added to Chansey Rank (THIS INCLUDES METAGROSS)
edit - Cresselia has been removed - Doesn't have an analysis and has basically no niche outside of hardcountering Groudon, which can be checked by more useful Pokemon. Inability to check EKiller sucks a lot too. Mostly outclassed by Lugia as a wall.
Discuss Breloom and Victini since it looks like they may be getting analyses.
We've won the meta.
Since Giratina-A seems to be less niched than its Origin Forme, shouldn't he be moved to OU?
Nothing from Ubers ever moves down to OU, this isn't determined by usage or if its bad here in Ubers. OU works differently than we do.
Regarding Breloom and Victini, I'd give Breloom low B and Victini mid B.
Breloom falls under similar categories as Scolipede, used as a lead that causes chaos rather easily, and Scolipede is B-, so Breloom should be in the same ballpark imo.
Victini is a somewhat good Xern check, something thats always welcome in Ubers, can run differing sets but its not a defining force by any means.
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
Edgar has a team running cress (that gr8stard used in UPL) so maybe it should have an analysis and remain ranked?
Also we need to rank Weezing (and maybe koffing? :3)
Also we need to rank Weezing (and maybe koffing? :3)
Arceus Rock deserve mid B rank like Aegislash since both are specialized check/counter.
A-rock checks effectively most ho-oh, yveltal, rayquaza and is a nice check against non-EQ EK. It also checks MKhan and it's not completly dead weight against Mgar.
A-rock checks effectively most ho-oh, yveltal, rayquaza and is a nice check against non-EQ EK. It also checks MKhan and it's not completly dead weight against Mgar.
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
Aren't all ekiller EQ, and ygod rarely but sometimes does run focus blast afaik.. still, agree with the overall nature of your post.
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
Weezing has a legitimate use, and koffing fills the same role slightly better but with a knock off weakness (making it arguably worse vs lando) see edgar's RMT, and cress is legit too. These aren't troll teams, these are legitimate teams (I believe)
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