Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking

[BLARG weather BLARG]

My thought process was that Garchomp is already too good, even with tinted lens Flygon is WAY overclassed. I guess it can freely spam outrage, but that's coming off of a shabby 100 Atk. stat =/ It already has EQ to hit steels, and tinted lens gives outrage 30 more BP, which isn't too much. Forry laughs at Flygon using any physical move save fire punch, though flygon should probably be carrying fire blast.

252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Flygon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 139-165 (39.26 - 46.61%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Flygon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 117-138 (33.05 - 38.98%) -- 6.98% chance to 3HKO

 

[G-Von]

My thought process was that Garchomp is already too good, even with tinted lens Flygon is WAY overclassed. I guess it can freely spam outrage, but that's coming off of a shabby 100 Atk. stat =/ It already has EQ to hit steels, and tinted lens gives outrage 30 more BP, which isn't too much. Forry laughs at Flygon using any physical move save fire punch, though flygon should probably be carrying fire blast.

252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Flygon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 139-165 (39.26 - 46.61%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Flygon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 117-138 (33.05 - 38.98%) -- 6.98% chance to 3HKO

Yea but Outrage is something that's very spammable while EQ is risky to lock yourself into since it could just make you set up fodder very easily.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

The difference between spamming Tinted Lens Outrages and predicting with the appropriate coverage move is just that: you have to predict and use the appropriate coverage move. With Tinted Lens Outrage, you could just click Outrage and likely 2HKO something. If you're relying on your coverage moves, you'll have to make the appropriate prediction and deal with the consequences of a possible misprediction. Tinted Lens Outrage would require no prediction result in far fewer mistakes.

 

[Chou Toshio]

^Until the fairies come out. Actually, we've already discussed Tinted Lens Flygon in this thread, and most thought it would be broke as fuck (it would be beatable, but it would be uncompetitive and bad for the metagame like Moody, or DPP Wobbaffet).


Changing the subject:
What if Jellicent got Poison Heal?

Poison heal is an ability that's pretty much reserved for Pokemon that aren't Poison types, but are designed based off of organisms that utilize Poison. Gliscor is a scorpion, Breloom is a fungus. Jellicent is a Jelly Fish so I think this fits-- I mean, Tentacruel actually is a poison type, so sucks for it, but Jelly can go with it.

Cursed Body and Water Absorb are both pretty awesome abilities. Furthermore, Jelly doesn't really care about Burn or Paralysis, and as a Water-type doesn't want to try its hand at switching into Venusaur, Amoongus or Breloom to absorb Spore.

However, Toxic is a major concern for Jellicent-- one that will be wiped away with Poison heal. Doubling its healing in rain, sun, or normal conditions, and allowing it to heal under sand would be a major boon for Jellicent.

Thoughts?

 

[phantom]

That would be fucking amazing. The thing about Jellicent is that it's crippled by Toxic and such having an immunity AND benefiting from the affliction itself is insane. It would make Jellicent impossible to kill outside of powerful attacks. Meaning, it would take a dump on defensive teams. That recovery also works really well in offsetting residual damage from weather and Stealth Rock (making it harder to wear down in hindsight). I think it would run a Toxic Orb more often than not. This would be beneficial by discouraging Trick users, making it even more difficult to deal with. I don't think it would be broken, it would just be a crazy good spin blocker, wall, and status absorber all in one. Overall, a huge ass buff.

edit: Oh! it even gets Trick too, some other cool thing to use. ;)

 

[Schpoonman]

I feel like this is just another form of power creep. Jellicent is not easy to 2HKO, this would exacerbate this to the point where you would require extremely hard hitters, something that's really worrying the metagame already, to reliably KO, and now you've got something that is effectively as bad for stall as all these Pokemon that are being suspected.

 

[klvkboom]

Jellicent with Poison Heal would more or less make the meta stale or simply annoying to play against. We already know how strong Jellicent is being able to counter many movesets from the common Pokes, and giving it a powerful healing ability (along with recover) means it'll essentially become the premier tank. It already is extremely hard to KO and has no trouble with physical attackers due to Will-O-Wisp, and even its special bulk is reasonable with that kind of healing.

Also imagine how rage-inducing it'll be in the lower end of the ladder when people go against a sub/protect variant. It's just like Gliscor but with better tanking stats, albeit no sand immunity.

I'd say it's a very strong change in the meta; however, it's also a bit unhealthy being easy to use. It'll become a universal tank that has very little bad match-ups, meanwhile crippling many Pokes on the opponent's team. We'd probably see a huge change in team building, with Keldeo possibly losing usage as well as Lati@s using T-bolt a bit more.

 

[Prinz]

Poison Heal Jellicent would be a incredible spin-blocker for any Stall Teams since SubToxic Tentacruel couldn't spin on it. So yeah, Poison Heal Jellicent would only fear some offensive version of Starmie with Thunder / Thunderbolt and Analytic but they aren't of course as common as SubToxic Tentacruel actually. If Poison Heal Jellicent would be around we would (probably) see more Stall teams / teams which take advantage of entry hazards and more offensive Analytic Starmie as well to spin the entry hazards away.

Now speaking on Tinded Lents Flygon it would be really great imo. Dragon / Ground is a great typing and it has some nice coverage moves (Fire Punch, Thunder Punch, Superpower and Stone Edge are the best) and it has U-Turn too. It would be outclass even Garchomp I guess lol for sure it would be a solid OU tier material.

 

[vyomov]

Ok, so a theorymon here:
What if Kyurem got Sheer Force?
Kyurem would be the best mixed attacker in OU with 130/130 attacking stats as well as moves such as Ice Beam and Earth Power that can fully abuse Sheer Force.

What if Relic Song got boosted to 100 BP?
Relic Song is a signature move(just like Aeroblast) and as such should be 100 BP. This would make Meloetta a much more popular mon as a 100 BP STAB Relic Song of that 128 SpA stat is quite powerful.

 

[Plastic Moose]

I actually use Meloetta in OU quite a bit (only the Mixed set) and, while the boost would be a nice boon, the real pain about the move is how it just screws with the opponents momentum. not to mention that Meloetta's real power comes from her Close Combat, so it would be helpful, but I don't think it would really increase her usage in OU. (but that's just me ;))

 

[Vann Accessible]

I've got one.

What if Swampert had Dry Skin?

Move over Gastrodon, Swampert is back with a vengeance. Now he's got something he always needed, recovery. Flavorwise, Dry Skin would make total sense because he's a mudskipper. Rain would not only give him extra passive healing, but also power up his water STABs.

Curse sweeper
Swampert @ Dry Skin w/ Leftovers
252 HP, 4 Def, 252 Special Def
Waterfall
Earthquake
Stone Edge
Curse

With the combination of rain and Dry Skin powering up Waterfall, providing extra passive recovery, and an immunity to water moves in general (specifically Scald burns), this Swampert would be a total brute. After a single Curse he would be a total pain to take down outside of grass type attacks, Encore users and Will o Wisp users. The new and improved Curse Swampert would eat unprepared teams alive.


Physical wall
Swampert @ Dry Skin w/ Leftovers
252 HP, 252 Def, 4 Sp Atk
Scald
Toxic
Protect/Ice Beam/Stealth Rock
Roar
With already decent bulk and a great typing, alongside Dry Skin's passive healing, a nice water immunity and zero sand damage, this Swampert would be like a physically defensive variant of Gastrodon. All he would have to fear would be grass attacks, Toxic, and powerful special attacks.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Would be awesome. I think the second set would be prominent, Protect would pretty much be mandatory. Protect was always good on swampert, but Dry Skin would clinch it. I'd say Scald / Protect / SR / Roar as standard, with EQ and Ice Beam getting spots where needed by specific teams.

 

[Torterragatr]

Just to explore hazards' effect on the metagame, what would happen if Stealth Rock was replaced with Stealth Ice? After all, GF aimed for Stealth Rock to punish Flying-types, who were immune to Spikes, and only chose Stealth Rock because Dragon was not weak to Rock.

Obviously the impact on OU would be huge, so here's what I can think of off the top of my head (how do you make hide tags argh):


Types in general

• Fire is not really considered a terrible defensive typing anymore because of the switch-in opportunities it allows and because it resists U-turn. Victini and Darm rise into OU, and maybe Chandelure; hopefully with its main advantage over those other mons gone, people will realize Infernape sucks and it will fall into UU.
• Bulky Water-types become slightly more annoying than usual, because they resist Ice.
• Grass-types not named Ferrothorn take a huge dip in usage and are thrown into the "bad types bucket" with Ice and Bug.
• Celebi is never ever used to counter Keldeo anymore without spin support, and sometimes not even then, as well as Latias, leaving Jellicent, Slowking and Tentacruel as the main good counters.
• Dragons in general drop it like it's hot. Dragonite is the exception because it should already be used with a spinner tbh, although I see people on the ladder who use it without one and they really shouldn't.
• The Ice-type becomes a little better, despite its glaring weaknesses.
• Ground-types, especially bulky ones, are going to be rarer, often becoming setup bait for Cloyster (who now has a whopping double resistance to SI, instead of a 2x SR weakness). Water/Ground types—particularly Gastrodon—will rise in usage, because they aren't weak to hazards, and Gastrodon in particular can eliminate Cloyster.
• As Ground-types drop, Electrics will rise. Thundy-T will become more popular because it can do away with any Ground-types using Grass Knot/HP Ice and then sweep.

Weather

• Volcarona would find itself in a much different spot than usual: it actually resists the omnipresent hazard, rather than being doubly weak to it. Thus it could get multiple opportunities to sweep in the match. It would probably be suspected.
• Ninetales would be in a similar boat. Sun teams wouldn't need Donphan/Forry anymore, and Ninetales would actually become somewhat durable.
• Moltres rises from RU into UU. Charizard also rises from NU into RU. Yanmega could rise into OU, but it's still weak to SI so who knows.
• While we're talking about sun, Venusaur would take a huge hit in its durability, making it easier to revenge kill.
• As Ice is buffed, Hail is obviously also buffed, as many common members of hail teams will be either resistant or neutral to SI. Walrein won't be NU anymore at least, and could be a staple on hail teams despite some weakness stacking.
• Hippowdon is now the only weather starter weak to Stealth Ice, but it's not a huuge problem because it has Slack Off. That said, it will be much harder for it to switch in on other weather starters, or switch in and wall something. It becomes even rarer in comparison to Tyranitar and may even drop into UU (without Sand Stream, of course).

Other

• Scarfmence is never used because of its gaping hazard weakness and is likely considered "outclassed" by other scarf dragons, like Latios and maybe even Hydreigon, although they will drop in usage also. This leaves poor Mence with very few niches, and it may fall into BL or UU.
• Ironically Kyurem's typing actually becomes advantageous here, because it turns Dragon's icicle weakness into a neutrality.
• Rayquaza and Shaymin-S may be tested in OU.
• Landorus would have never been suspected. Gliscor falls to UU or maybe even RU, as well as Lando-T.

@Poison Heal Jellicent: While I can see that being useful in many situations, Jellicent loves its Water immunity, so it should be cautious when using it, especially when you consider that Keldeo's rain-boosted Hydro Pump 2HKOes its best set.

@Sheer Force Kyurem: I wouldn't want something with those great offensive and defensive stats getting Sheer Force tbh, considering all the offensive monsters we have in Gen V. However, it would get Kyurem out of BL, which is technically a good thing.

@100 BP Relic Song: This would actually be decent, and could bring Meloetta into OU, because it could blast switch-ins with a 100 BP STAB move and then change forme.

 

[Schpoonman]

Dry Skin does not power up Waterfall. Now, rain would give him hell of healing along with a boost to his attacks, but would not boost his Water attacks.

That being said, Swampert would be a huge pain to take down. Curse variants would be boss, he's super bulky.

 

[Magcargo]

What if Scizor got ThunderPunch?
One of Scizor's biggest flaws is that it gets walled by many bulky water types, including tentacruel and Jellicent. However, With ThunderPunch, Scizor can 2HKO both of these pokemon and OHKO them after a Swords Dance. Skarmory also takes a hefty amount of damage from a +2 ThunderPunch, having a chance to get OHKO'd after Stealth Rock. Gyarados and keldeo would no longer be able to setup on Scizor either, since keldeo gets OHKO'd after Stealth rock and Two layers of spikes, while Gyarados gets OHKO'd regardless. Overall, I would say that ThunderPunch would be a neat addition to Scizor's movepool and make it a much bigger threat than it already is.

 

[klvkboom]

What if Scizor got ThunderPunch?

This could work, and would help Scizor a lot on his would be checks. However, being specifically for SE coverage, it'll probably be used on his boosting or non-choiced sets. Note that it's electric type, as well as having an underaverage base power, it'll be a bad situation for CB Scizor if you predict wrong. The payoff might be worth the risk tho...

Also, on the CB set, more often than not you'll be using U-turn on incoming Tentas and Jellies, so you already have a good switch in to another counter.

 

[Prinz]

What if Scizor got ThunderPunch?
One of Scizor's biggest flaws is that it gets walled by many bulky water types, including tentacruel and Jellicent. However, With ThunderPunch, Scizor can 2HKO both of these pokemon and OHKO them after a Swords Dance. Skarmory also takes a hefty amount of damage from a +2 ThunderPunch, having a chance t.o get OHKO'd after Stealth Rock. Gyarados and keldeo would no longer be able to setup on Scizor either, since keldeo gets OHKO'd after Stealth rock and Two layers of spikes, while Gyarados gets OHKO'd regardless. Overall, I would say that ThunderPunch would be a neat addition to Scizor's movepool and make it a much bigger threat than it already is.

Scizor wouldn't improve so much imo. It can actually do lots of damages on bulky Water-types with U-Turn / Bug Bite with Sword Dance and can hit hard Skarmory with Superpower after a Sword Dance (with Life Orb it does about ~60% which means Skarmory can't switch into Sword Dance Scizor safety) and things like Keldeo doesn't like Superpower too. Also, Pursuit hits hard Jellicent (especially the Sword Dance one with Pursuit, the jellyfish switchs into a Sword Dance and Pursuit wrecks it). I think you would use Thunder Punch only for Tentacruel and Gyarados (which is actually not really common even if it's a big and underrated threat for many teams) since Bug Bite and Pursuit are generally better (you will always use a Scizor with Bullet Punch and Superpower I guess and with U-Turn if choice band / scarf or pivot with Sword Dance) so yeah with Thunder Punch Scizor wouldn't fear bulky Water-types like Tentacruel or Gyarados but it wouldn't use it too much in my opinion.

 

[Chou Toshio]

What if Darmanitan got Sand Rush?

First of all, I have no clue as to why this thing's pre-ev appears in sand stormy areas. Seeing it get buffeted by sand every turn, makes me wonder why it's living out here in the desert to begin with. HOW DOES IT SURVIVE??

That said, Darmanitan is a desert Pokemon, so I think it should get a desert related ability (like Cacnea). So, what if Darmanitan got Sand Rush? It would not only be immune to Sand, but get that awesome x2 Speed.

On one hand, Darmanitan will sorely miss the boost from Sheer Force, but let's face it-- Darmanitan is too frail and too slow to do shit in OU without boosted Speed. With Sand Rush, you can replace Sheer Force's 1.3x boost to some of its attacks with Choice Band's 1.5x boost to ALL of its attacks; and replace Choice Scarf's 1.5x boost to Speed with Sand Rush's 2x boost to Speed! Sure you lose the ability to abuse Sun by using it on a Sand team, but on the other, you now have a Sand Sweeper that Ninetales has NO HOPE of switching into. Let's hope they have Heatran, because even if you use Ninetales to get rid of sand, something's going to have to deal with that incoming CB Sun Flare Blitz. Even Politoad will have to think really hard about switching into a potential CB Superpower.

thoughts?

 

[MikeDawg]

What if Darmanitan got Sand Rush?

First of all, I have no clue as to why this thing's pre-ev appears in sand stormy areas. Seeing it get buffeted by sand every turn, makes me wonder why it's living out here in the desert to begin with. HOW DOES IT SURVIVE??

That said, Darmanitan is a desert Pokemon, so I think it should get a desert related ability (like Cacnea). So, what if Darmanitan got Sand Rush? It would not only be immune to Sand, but get that awesome x2 Speed.

On one hand, Darmanitan will sorely miss the boost from Sheer Force, but let's face it-- Darmanitan is too frail and too slow to do shit in OU without Choice Scarf. With Sand Rush, you can replace Sheer Force's 1.3x boost to some of its attacks with Choice Band's 1.5x boost to ALL of its attacks; and replace Choice Scarf's 1.5x boost to Speed with Sand Rush's 2x boost to Speed! Sure you lose the ability to abuse Sun by using it on a Sand team, but on the other, you now have a Sand Sweeper that Ninetales has NO HOPE of switching into. Even Politoad will have to think really hard about switching into a potential CB Superpower.

thoughts?

I think it's a cool idea but I feel as if it would still share usage with sheer force (if the two coexisted). While sand rush darm has that crazy speed and such, it loses a huge amount of power without sheer force (and sun to an extent). For example:
252+ Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent in sun: 207-243 (51.36 - 60.29%) -- 91.02% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent in sun: 246-289 (61.04 - 71.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 159-187 (39.45 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after weather

However, in sun darm serves more the role of wallbreaker, rather than sweeper. So the two would essentially share different roles. Alongside this, sand is much easier to maintain than sun, providing even more incentive as the current meta is simply more kind to sand rush darm.

 

[G-Von]

What if Darmanitan got Sand Rush?

First of all, I have no clue as to why this thing's pre-ev appears in sand stormy areas. Seeing it get buffeted by sand every turn, makes me wonder why it's living out here in the desert to begin with. HOW DOES IT SURVIVE??

That said, Darmanitan is a desert Pokemon, so I think it should get a desert related ability (like Cacnea). So, what if Darmanitan got Sand Rush? It would not only be immune to Sand, but get that awesome x2 Speed.

On one hand, Darmanitan will sorely miss the boost from Sheer Force, but let's face it-- Darmanitan is too frail and too slow to do shit in OU without Choice Scarf. With Sand Rush, you can replace Sheer Force's 1.3x boost to some of its attacks with Choice Band's 1.5x boost to ALL of its attacks; and replace Choice Scarf's 1.5x boost to Speed with Sand Rush's 2x boost to Speed! Sure you lose the ability to abuse Sun by using it on a Sand team, but on the other, you now have a Sand Sweeper that Ninetales has NO HOPE of switching into. Even Politoad will have to think really hard about switching into a potential CB Superpower.

thoughts?

Thoughts? Here was my first one: "HOLY FUCKING SHIT ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?"

Yea Hihidaruma (don't hate on the jap name) would obliterate shit if it got Sand Rush. It could run an adamant nature since not much would be able to catch it at +2 speed. A Bulk Up set sounds tempting not gonna lie.

 

[Vector Lynthos]

What if Metagross received the ability Iron Fist?
Contrary to its classification as the Iron Leg Pokemon, Metagross sounds like a good candidate for the Iron Fist ability. A majority of the moves it commonly runs receive a nifty 20% percent boost(Meteor Mash, Hammer Arm, Thunder/Ice Punch and Bullet Punch.) I feel that its choice band set really benefits the most from the ability as Metagross can get away with a couple of things it wouldn't be able to otherwise.
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 213-252 (50.71 - 60%) -- 85.94% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Metagross ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 226-266 (57.36 - 67.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Metagross ThunderPunch vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 190-224 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Chou Toshio]

Ok, so a theorymon here:
What if Kyurem got Sheer Force?
Kyurem would be the best mixed attacker in OU with 130/130 attacking stats as well as moves such as Ice Beam and Earth Power that can fully abuse Sheer Force.

I'm actually pretty sure this would be ban worthy. If people thought Landorus' special attacks hit hard off of 115, they're in for a whole new experience when they see Kyurem's attacks coming off of 130.

Besides, unlike Landorus who had to use HP Ice for coverage, Kyurem has Ice Beam, Earth Power, and Focus Blast. Even if it's the same Ground+Ice coverage, STAB Ice Beam + Earth Power is a LOT more terrifying than STAB Earth Power + HP Ice. Kyurem's got way more bulk than lando too, and no 4x weak. Sure it's slow, sure it lacks RP/Agility, but with that bulk, Roost, and WAY more power than Lando-I, we're talking about something at least on part with it at threat level.

 

[Schpoonman]

Also: Baton Passing Speed boosts. That would be nothing short of horrifying. Now, he's far more susceptible to revenge-killing, but Landorus was susceptible as well (and didn't Kyurem isn't 4x weak to anything!) and he still got the boot. No, this would be absolutely horrifying. There's like 3 safe switch-ins and two of them are named Blissey and Chansey.

 

[Gary]

I'm actually pretty sure this would be ban worthy. If people thought Landorus' special attacks hit hard off of 115, they're in for a whole new experience when they see Kyurem's attacks coming off of 130.

Besides, unlike Landorus who had to use HP Ice for coverage, Kyurem has Ice Beam, Earth Power, and Focus Blast. Even if it's the same Ground+Ice coverage, STAB Ice Beam + Earth Power is a LOT more terrifying than STAB Earth Power + HP Ice. Kyurem's got way more bulk than lando too, and no 4x weak. Sure it's slow, sure it lacks RP/Agility, but with that bulk, Roost, and WAY more power than Lando-I, we're talking about something at least on part with it at threat level.

I already love using classic Kyurem, so this amazing buff would just give me more of a reason to use it. Honestly though, with a bit of hazard support, not even Blissey can safely switch into it:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 260-307 (39.87 - 47.08%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

That's just ONE layer of Spikes. ONE!! Jellicent would probably be the best counter in OU, because it can switch into LO Draco Meteor and recover off the damage, but it still wont like taking it. Damn.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 260-307 (39.87 - 47.08%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Kyurem-W Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 244-289 (37.42 - 44.32%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


Kyurem-C actually has more damage output than Kyurem-W with boosted attacks! Crazy.

 

[Prinz]

What if Flygon got Dragon Dance?

It's a Dragon-type and even mon like Gyarados and Charizard which aren't Dragon-type but are similiar to dragons have it so Dragon Dance fits pretty well on Flygon imo. Flygon isn't a bad mon to use Dragon Dance too, it has a good typing with strong STABs and nice coverage moves too and it could improve a lot with that move, maybe it should raise in OU as well. It hasn't the same chances to setup which an hypothetical Dragon Dance Garchomp could have (fortunately it can't learn it lol with that bulk it could setup on many mons and then wrecks everything) due to the lower bulk but it isn't too bad neither so I think Dragon Dance Flygon could have a chance even in OU tier, for sure Dragon Dance would help Flygon a lot. So people, what do you think about it?