Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking

[Halcyon.]

Nah, I feel like, for the most part, Pokémon like the ones you mentioned (Steelix, Bastiodon, Shuckle) aren't used because they have no offensive options, but rather their defensive typings leave a lot to be desired. There's also the problem of these Pokémon's speed. Most of them are so slow that they can't really make use of their offensive presence anyway. Another issue with the move itself is that it would require you to invest in both defense and attack, which would lower your overall power since you wouldn't just be able to spam a Steel or Rock type move. The only Pokémon I could see making use of this would be Metagross, which has naturally high Defense AND Attack as well as decent speed, but even then, it wouldn't like having its EVs split.

 

[MikeDawg]

What if there was a Rock or Steel type attack that used the user's defence stat in the damage calculation, instead of it's attack stat?
Similar to how Foul Play uses the target's attack instead of the user's attack in the damage calculation.
This would give many walls a much higher offensive presence, while encouraging full investment into their bulk.
Would lower tier walls like Steelix, Bastiodon, Shuckle, etc. rise in usage due to their increased offensive presence?

That seems an incredibly farfetched move due to how obviously overpowered it is.

Regirock: 200 fully invested attack
Steelix: some large number that i dont care to look up
Shuckle: 200 or something attack
Etc

But the issue isn't even in the stats, per se. Rather that THESE POKEMON DONT EVEN NEED ATTACK INVESTMENT.

They become stronger by just becoming bulkier.

And also the stats are far too high

 

[Chou Toshio]

@Rock/Steel move-- This is a really brilliant theorymon-- I really like the idea!

The major issue is lack of coverage moves without splitting EVs. Now, if Rock and Steel BOTH got one of these moves, it could be pretty damn cool! I think people are seriously underestimating how awesome Rock is as an attacking type, and how great these Poke's defense stats are. Actually, I think Regirock would be great with a mono-attacking set! Rock Attack / SR / Thunder Wave / Iron Defense

You know what would be amazing? Rhydon if Eviolite also boosted it!

 

[vyomov]

252+ Def Shuckle 60BP Rock Attack vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 666-786 (102.14 - 120.55%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Shuckle would be amazing in Sand. It would make Sand kinda OP.

 

[Chou Toshio]

What do you guys think of Rock Attack / Iron Defense / Rest / Sleep Talk Regirock with special defensive set and Hippo support? Let's say the rock attack has like 80 base power and 100 acc

 

[GCSChris]

What if there was a Rock or Steel type attack that used the user's defence stat in the damage calculation, instead of it's attack stat?

I just feel this would make defensive pokemon better than their offensive counterparts. This is because you can invest fully in bulk, while also investing in attack. That seems a little ridiculous already, especially when pokemon like regirock, steelix, shuckle, etc. have defensive stats much higher than any other existing attack stat in the entire game. Pokemon like Deoxys-A have attack stats of 180 (highest in the game), while the defensive pokemon would effectively have an attack AND defense stat of 200-230 (which are both fully invested, with 256 EVs to spare). It just seems too powerful to me to be able to use 252 EVs in one stat (defense), which is usualyl higher than offense, and invest in both bulk and offense using them.

 

[Oddish is the best]

What about shaymin getting fairy type?

 

[GCSChris]

What about shadow tag Roserade? She could come in and trap bulky waters and set up spikes freely then finish it off. Would be pretty cool I think.

Not to be rude, but we could piss around for hours talking about Shadow Tag, as it is easy one of the top 5 abilities, if not the best ability in the game. That's why we're aiming to keep the theorymons on track flavor-wise. I think this could also just be a reminder to do so for those posting in this thread.

 

[Oddish is the best]

Not to be rude, but we could piss around for hours talking about Shadow Tag, as it is easy one of the top 5 abilities, if not the best ability in the game. That's why we're aiming to keep the theorymons on track flavor-wise. I think this could also just be a reminder to do so for those posting in this thread.

Ok sorry :( Changed question.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I just feel this would make defensive pokemon better than their offensive counterparts. This is because you can invest fully in bulk, while also investing in attack.

And you didn't think it was ridiculous when Keldeo got to have 129 ATK AND Sp.A with 252 eves in both? When I heard about it when BW was released, I thought "Ok, so it's basically 4th Gen Mixed Infernape with the same bulk as Machamp and with 129 ATK and SpA with Water (which is better than Fire let's face it) as its 2nd type. wtf"

Anyway, I hardly think it would be broken. Remember, it's just going to be 1 attack-- the Pokemon that abuse this move won't get any coverage moves coming off the same stat. ie: No Edge-Quake going on.

Rock is an amazing attack type that can potentially make a mono-attacker work; but it's still a mono-attacker. With only a potentially very pathetic EQ (with no ATK EVs) backing it up, it's not that scary.

 

[GCSChris]

I feel like it definitely depends on the base power of the move, and whether it was rock or steel. Also while i understand the Keldeo analogy, and Secret Sword is an amazing move, but I feel this is a bit different because that is giving Keldeo, making it an amazing mixed attacker (that'll probably be banned soon, cause like you said it's ridiculous but we'll get to that, lol). I don't think it would be broken, but again it depends on the Base Power of the move, whether it is Steel or Rock type (Rock > Steel offensively), and which pokemon get it. On some pokemon, having Attack the same as Defense with extra EVs would be strong (maybe not as strong as Keldeo, but hey it's being suspected for a reason :P)

 

[Torterragatr]

Rock Attack (assuming it shares the same BP as Secret Sword) wouldn't be extremely powerful, because there are no items that can boost the Defense stat other than Eviolite. Even Shuckle has somewhat underwhelming damage output with the move:

252+ Def Shuckle Rock Attack vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Cloyster: 234-276 (77.22 - 91.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (needs hazards to OHKO)

That said, it would still be a godsend to high defense-low attack Pokémon like Shuckle, because it allows them to do actual decent damage outside of Toxic/Seismic Toss; it wouldn't be as important for Regirock because it has acceptable offenses anyway, but not relying on Stone Miss is always a plus. The Regirock set Chou posted would probably get Regi into OU, especially with TR support (speaking of which, this move could make TR more common since most of the abusers are very, very slow).

 

[Chou Toshio]

I feel like it definitely depends on the base power of the move, and whether it was rock or steel. Also while i understand the Keldeo analogy, and Secret Sword is an amazing move, but I feel this is a bit different because that is giving Keldeo, making it an amazing mixed attacker (that'll probably be banned soon, cause like you said it's ridiculous but we'll get to that, lol). I don't think it would be broken, but again it depends on the Base Power of the move, whether it is Steel or Rock type (Rock > Steel offensively), and which pokemon get it. On some pokemon, having Attack the same as Defense with extra EVs would be strong (maybe not as strong as Keldeo, but hey it's being suspected for a reason :p)

I was coming off of a very 4th-gen based mentality when I originally made that comment. Jellicent hadn't proven its worth yet, and none of us had played using Lati@s in ages. Infernape was a top 15 OU Pokemon (MAJOR THREAT), and Close Combat was just about the only physical attack it ever used. Infernape's Mixed set's Achilles heal was that it couldn't invest much in ATK. Secret Sword seemed ridiculously OP. Add in the fact that it had better Bulk than Machamp (who was OP as a lead and frustratingly difficult to OHKO even with Azelf), and that DPP had a LOT less recourse for dealing with Water-type attacks (no Rotom-W, and much less distribution of water-immune abilities), and it's easy to see why Keldeo just seemed outrageous.

I think even if we were talking an 85 base power 100 acc attack on just about every Rock-type, we'd still be looking at a very good, but reasonable attack. If it were Steel, it would have almost no relevance to OU-- Ferothorn, and Forry would sometimes use it, and that's about it. Brave Bird is too much better coverage for Skarm to give a damn. Even as a Rock-type attack, Tyranitar and Terrak are the only viable Rock-types anyway; and both have good ATK. Rhyperior would have no use for it.

Even Rhydon would be wondering, "Ok, but how do I use this while keeping EQ's power strong?"

I think Regirock and Omastar are the only Pokes who could make it in OU and have legitimate use for it.

 

[ErraticMagic]

Not sure if you guys already know this so sorry if I sound pointless here, but Shuckle has Contrary and Shell Smash which basically makes it Cosmic Power. It also learns Sleep Talk so it could run Regirock's set but with Shell Smash over Iron Defense. With sand and a couple of boosts you're practically invincible, then once you reach +6 you can kill anything but Quagsire. Also special steel and rock attacks are pretty much non-existent while STAB Focus Blast and Earth Power could really dent Regirock.

 

[Halcyon.]

What if Flygon kept Arena Trap when it evolved?

Flygon is just begging for something to separate itself from the other big Dragon type Pokémon. We discussed Tinted Lens already, but another interesting possibility would be if it could keep Trapinch's original ability. We all know how amazing trapping abilities are, and a Dragon/Ground type with it would be amazing. Pokémon with Choiced Electric attacks would be a thing of the past. They simply couldn't risk being locked into an Electric type move only to be revenge killed or set up on by Flygon. Magnezone and Jolteon would have to opt for different sets than the ones they currently use for fear of becoming setup bait. Choice Scarf Flygon could also revenge kill things like Kyurem-B and Jirachi, it could trap spinners like Tentacruel and ensure Starmie takes U-turn damage. I think one of the maine selling points would be for sun teams. They could forgo Dugtrio for Flygon, a Pokémon that resists Rock, can reliably kill Tyranitar not locked into Crunch, and deal with some of the Dragon types that plague Sun teams (though it can't trap most of them). Scarf Flygon could also trap Terrakion, which can be a problem for Sun teams. A Choice Band or Life Orb set can trap and kill Politoed with Outrage. Plus, it would provide a powerful U-turn to secure momentum. I think it could be a huge boon for sun teams.

 

[Chou Toshio]

^So basically, Flygon traps and kills Scizor (Fire Punch), Lucario, Jirachi, Metagross, and Heatran; Magnezone kills Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Skarmory, so Drag-Mag now traps and butt-fucks every single Steel-type in the game to make a nice easy GG on the metagame?

 

[GCSChris]

What if Flygon kept Arena Trap when it evolved?

That would be awesome! I already love Choice Scarf Flygon in UU, but with Arena Trap it would definitely make it OU. I love how i can be a great revenge killer while holding a Choice Scarf, as of course they can't switch out. I really think the sun place would be awesome; being able to use a powerful dragon over Dugtrio is really nice. Plus, it can deal with dragons AND Heatran and the other things Dugtrio deals with.

EDIT:

so Drag-Mag now traps and butt-fucks every single Steel-type in the game to make a nice easy GG on the metagame?

I didn't even think about that. Wow, that'd be ridiculous.

 

[PokemonMasterDebater]

What if Soak was a permanent status infliction?
Would it see much higher usage? Would electric/grass types start destroying the meta?

 

[Chou Toshio]

Hrmmm... I think the bottom line there is "broke much". Being turned into a water type is just too much of an issue for too many Pokemon; and as you said, it would be a major problem if it was paired with a bunch of electric types. I mean, just imagine a team with Politoad, a bunch of Soak users, and just something like Scarf Thunder Jolteon. lol

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Here is an odd one I thought up: what if Baby Pokemon received +2 defense boosts from Eviolite? It was rumored earlier this gen that first stages or babies might get more of a boost than Pokemon like Chansey, of course this never panned out.

Some thoughts of mine:

-Prankster Riolu would be much more dangerous, having legit bulk now.
-Muchlax would still be no good IMO, Chansey still is a better wall, being more specially bulky:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Munchlax in rain: 217-256 (45.78 - 54%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey in rain: 241-285 (34.23 - 40.48%)

however, Munchlax is much more physically bulky

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Superpower vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Munchlax: 205-244 (43.24 - 51.47%)
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 452-533 (64.2 - 75.71%)

perhaps Munchlax might be able to use some sort of Curse set?

-idk about Mantyke, it without a doubt is very specially bulky:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus Hurricane vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 91-108 (30.95 - 36.73%)

and it has some nice resistances and immunities, however without reliable recovery, a stealth rock weakness, and low special attack, it it looks to be kind of a dud

Any other ideas for this?

 

[Chou Toshio]

I feel like the definition of baby Pokemon is too vague-- they aren't differentiated enough from non babies like teddiursa or magnemite to get different mechanics.

That said, if they did get support, I'd agree that Rioulu would be the biggest benefactor-- maybe the only one relevant to OU. Now LC would get REALLY screwy with this. I mean Munchlax?? Good thing Elekid doesn't have a set up move.

 

[BenTheDemon]

What if Sceptile got Nasty Plot?

 

[GCSChris]

I feel like the definition of baby Pokemon is too vague-- they aren't differentiated enough from non babies like teddiursa or magnemite to get different mechanics.

That said, if they did get support, I'd agree that Rioulu would be the biggest benefactor-- maybe the only one relevant to OU. Now LC would get REALLY screwy with this. I mean Munchlax?? Good thing Elekid doesn't have a set up move.

While I agree with what you said, they can be pretty easily differentiated. This is what Bulbapedia has to say:

Baby Pokémon can by classified as such by these four rules:

1. Can be obtainable by hatching an Egg.
2. Must be the lowest form in a family chain.
3. Must be able to evolve at least once.
4. In Undiscovered Egg Group.

Baby Pokemon are only obtainable through breeding or they are given to you in the game. Also I completely agree that Rioulu would be the only relevant OU baby pokemon.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Yeah, but several baby Pokemon such as Azurill, Elekid, Magby, Budew, Chingling, Riolu, and others have already been shown to be encounterable in the wild. Most of them don't require any special item or condition to breed for them either. Baby Pokemon aren't referred to as such anywhere in more recent games; and I'm not even sure if they were in GS. The concept of baby Pokemon has little to no relevance to in-cartridge experience. That's why I just don't see them as being differentiated substantially in-game as to deserve a different boost from Eviolite. Most in-game players would just be confused as to why their Riolu is taking less damage than their starter when equipped with Eviolite.

 

[GCSChris]

Yeah, because a lot of non-evolved pokemon aren't babies, I agree that it would be a stupid characteristic of eviolite to have two separate things. Heck, even a different item that specifically works on baby pokemon would be really weird and possibly very confusing for many players.