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Theorymon Sessions

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Zebraiken, Nov 1, 2012.

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zeb is a loser

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  1. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken seize the day
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    NEW THEORYMON SESSION THREAD HERE


    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Theorymon Sessions

    RULES


    rules + initial thread (open)
    Hey there.

    I've had the idea for this thread for a little while now, but practically every time I walk into #neverused there are discussions going on that I think would totally fit into this thread so I decided it needed to go up ASAP. Named after our very own venerable moderator Theorymon, this thread is primarily a thinking exercise, designed to help you understand how to think about and deal with new metagames and threats. None of the situations that will be discussed in this thread are guaranteed to happen, if they ever will at all. We're just going to talk about this kind of stuff just for the sake of it and to improve our discussion abilities, aight?

    Here's how it's gonna work. I'm going to come up with a reasonable change to the NU metagame, and you guys discuss the aftereffects of this change, how it will affect the meta, some interesting sets you might use to combat this new change, any plausible counters, anything that you can think of to talk about this new potential change. This change could be anything from new DW abilities being released to RU drop-downs - even changes to the moves or abilities that current Pokemon have could be discussed. I'll also provide several questions to work off of (though I expect you guys to come up with your own to ask the other posters, too!), so hopefully it should be easy to just jump in and start discussing. I'm gonna give you guys an example or two of what's good and what's bad, just for clarification purposes.

    ---

    Topic: DW Serperior is released

    While this poster does offer a few good points, it's an incredibly negative post and shows that they aren't trying to innovate or think about new ways to handle some incredibly dangerous threats. I'd like to emphasize that we should never ever try to ban something quickly, as soon as it is released; after all, it just says that we're not giving it a chance to prove that our metagame can adapt and handle it. Serperior might very well be broken when it is released, but that is not what this thread is for. Any posts that declare brokenness of any given mon will be deleted and/or edited, depending on the rest of the content. Keep that in mind, please!

    Can you see the immediate difference between those two posts? This second guy is at the very least attempting to be innovative, which is all that matters. He brings up a few often ignored points that people don't immediately think of (Sap Sippers) and also discusses the changes to the metagame in general and expands on his thoughts about it (Emboar's usage rising and his thoughts on why that would be). While this isn't an optimal post, it's still a good one and shows that the poster is trying to think out of the box. Remember, this is all just an attempt to get you to expand on how you think, so don't get too caught up in brokenness or the like.​

    ---

    Just to reiterate myself: while I don't expect you to write up your dissertation on the effects of Qwilfish dropping to NU, I do expect nothing but quality discussion out of this thread. In fact, I rather you wouldn't write incredibly long posts, as it makes a lot of users skip over your posts and we miss out on a lot of potential discussion. If you've got a lot to say, then you might want to consider saying it through multiple posts while also allowing others to read through your thoughts and respond to them appropriately. I'm all for more conversation. =)

    If you have nothing important to say or at least inspire other posters to think about, it's not worth posting here, alright? Good!


    second bump rules (open)
    OP updated November 28th.

    Anyway, I asked a few people for their opinions on how this thread performed for the first 'session', and I got some mixed results. Some people thought there was too little to talk about - there wasn't that much to discuss after someone pointed out the major changes that one of the drops would have made. There's only so much you can say about Rhydon / Scolipede / Whimsicott / Hitmonchan or the absence of a few Pokemon (which actually seems to make less impact than you'd imagine!). Others said the topic just had too MUCH. While everyone does have several Pokemon to talk about, there was actually just so much to say that there's no actual DISCUSSION going on here. No one is talking with one another about stuff which is partly why this thread kind of died out once everyone said what they wanted to say.

    So I guess I'll try to take a different spin on this, rather than having a set topic with set questions like I did the first go-around. Instead, we'll have a more open-ended discussion where you guys can kind of theorymon about whatever the fuck you want or comment on the stuff that other people bring up, too. This time around, we'll be talking about alternate moves / abilities that fit into the flavor of a Pokemon, but significantly alter its effectiveness in the current metagame. I'm specifically mentioning the flavor aspect because I want this to maintain some kind of realism (don't give Ludicolo Shell Smash, for god's sake).

    Here are the ground rules that I want everyone to abide by when suggesting stuff to talk about:

    Okay so I figure I'll kick this off by suggesting two or three things to give you an example of what I'm looking for, then giving you guys a few ideas of others that might be worth talking about. When you're looking to respond to someone's prompt, think about some of the same questions I brought up to you guys in the first couple of posts... "what effect will this have on the metagame"? "will it significantly alter usage statistics or outclass something to the point it becomes a rare threat"? "what would rise up to beat this new threat?" "what kind of playstyle would this fit best on?" "will its other sets become better with the addition of the new ability / move?" etc, you know the drill.

    What if Torterra got Shell Smash? It's justifiable since Torterra actually has a shell to be smashed, though it does have a few other things on it like trees and bushes... anyway, Shell Smash Torterra simplifies a lot of its major problems. As a sweeper, Torterra has always lacked either power or Speed, and while it does have two separate moves for each of these (Rock Polish + Swords Dance) it never has the opportunity to use both and its coverage also flounders as a result of carrying both moves. Shell Smash actually lets Torterra become an incredibly threatening sweeper in a single turn, and between Wood Hammer / Earthquake / Stone Edge it basically has neutral coverage on the entire tier and hits like a fucking tank. It also sits just above Gorebyss, meaning that your standard Choice Scarf Rotom-A cannot catch a +2 Torterra. It's still reliably handled in NU but you'd figure that the presence of SS Torterra would popularize other bulky Grass-types (especially the likes of Tangela) and even just other Torterra.

    What if Golurk got Trick? Trick is generally found on Psychic- and Ghost-types that seem devious or intelligent enough to mess around with items. Golurk isn't particularly devious but it does have the proper typing which is probably more important than strictly the flavor (a few other things like Kecleon, Furret, and Volbeat get it without matching the flavor that much either). While Golurk doesn't necessarily want to give up coverage for it, Trick is suddenly a very good move in combination with Choice Band. It also gives Golurk an actual means to handle common switch-ins like Alomomola, which it really cannot do right now. One of the more interesting applications of Trick is in conjunction with Klutz - now you can actually hide the item you're holding to some degree and flippantly cripple things like Amoonguss by giving them Choice items or things like Flame Orb.

    A few other "what ifs", just for you to think about: Hurricane Rotom? Megahorn Pinsir? Regigigas with recovery? Regenerator / Volt Switch Stunfisk? The famed Flare Blitz Flareon? Final Gambit Lickilicky? Shadow Force Drifblim? Feel free to post about the potential of any of these, or go ahead and think of your own!!

    Remember that good discussion here (and in other threads) could help put you on the way to your very own [​IMG] Community Contributor badge. Discuss away! :>


    Links to posted questions are listed below. Feel free to respond to any that intrigue you at any given time, no matter how old they are - maybe you'll spark a new discussion on someone else's idea that got skipped over before!

    ---

    Last updated May 3rd.

    What if Torterra got Shell Smash?
    What if Golurk got Trick?
    What if Flareon got Flare Blitz?
    What if Rotom-S got Hurricane?
    What if Pinsir got Megahorn?

    What if Gigalith and/or Marowak received Sand Rush as their Dream World Ability?
    What if Flareon got V-Create?
    What if Kangaskan got Bulk Up?
    What if Rampardos got Rock Head?
    What if Shelgon got Regenerator?
    What if Samurott got Lightningrod?
    What if Articuno got Ice Body?
    What if Drifblim got Roost?
    What if Zebstrika got Flare Blitz?

    What if Cnidali was in NU? (for reference, cnidali is a fakemon created in #neverused one day)
    What if Mantine got Roost? (2)
    What if Floatzel got Work Up?
    What if Metang got Recover?
    What if Floatzel got Swords Dance?
    What if Octillery got Shell Smash?
    What if Slaking got U-turn?
    What if Swellow got Close Combat?
    What if Sky Attack no longer needed a charge turn?
    What if Noctowl got access to a special Flying-type move with 90 BP that boosts SpDef one stage each time it is used?
    What if Rotom-S got Roost?
    What if Samurott got Nasty Plot?
    What if Sneasel got Technician from the Dream World?
    What if Scolipede got U-turn?
    What if Carracosta had Rock Head + Head Smash or just Head Smash, or just Rock Head?
    What if Klang got Rapid Spin?
    What if Rapidash got Sheer Force?
    What if Beartic got Ice Shard?
    What if Fake Out + ExtremeSpeed + Volt Tackle was legal on Pikachu, and Volt Tackle had no recoil?
    What if Sawk got U-turn?
    What if Sawk could use Eviolite?
    What if Metang got Shift Gear?
    What if Linoone got Scrappy?
    What if Swanna got Adaptability?
    What if Spikes + Sleep Powder was legal on Roselia?

    What if Butterfree got Baton Pass?
    What if Drifblim got Hurricane?
    What if Mantine got Volt Absorb or Serene Grace?
    What if Coil boosted Speed instead of Accuracy?
    What if Charizard got Tail Glow?
    What if Shadow Tag Lampent was released?
    What if Cacturne received Pursuit?
    What if Alomomola rose to RU?
    What if Floatzel received Sheer Force?
    What if Klang received Rapid Spin?
    What if Dunsparce had access to Eviolite and Wish?
    What if Sawk and Golurk had Mach Punch?
    What if Shiftry had Hustle?
    What if Tauros had Scrappy?
    What if Stunfisk learned Volt Switch?
    What if Ampharos received Sheer Force?
    What if Lapras received Shell Smash?
    What if Weezing received Sheer Force?

    What if Samurott had Swift Swim?
    What if Contrary had better distribution?
    (Altaria and Zebstrika?)
    What if Wigglytuff had Prankster?
    What if Combusken could use Baton Pass and Speed Boost?
    What if Ursaring got Swift Swim?

    What if Wartortle got Shell Smash?
    What if Pinsir had Megahorn?
    What if Gothorita had Baton Pass?
    What if Munchlax had Slack Off?
    What if Heatmor had Belly Drum?
    What if Torkoal got Morning Sun? (2)
    What if Gabite got Dragon Dance?
    What if Seismitoad got Toxic Spikes?
    What if Misdreavus got Recover or Moonlight?
    What if Luxray got Agility?
    What if Lumineon received Quiver Dance?
    What if Hidden Power didn't exist?
    What if Metang had Levitate?
    What if Stunfisk got Water Absorb?
    What if Dodrio got Hi Jump Kick or Jump Kick?
    What if Kecleon could utilize Eviolite?

    What if Golem learned Rapid Spin?
    What if Miltank learned Rapid Spin?
    What if Cinccino returned to NU?
    What if Golem and Marowak received Mold Breaker?

    What if Magmar got Flash Fire?
    What if Glaceon got Regenerator?

    What if Milk Drink worked in-battle like it does in-game?
    What if Golurk got Bulk Up?


    Thanks to Starships for compiling the initial list of these.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2013
  2. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken seize the day
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    Let's start it off with something easy-ish, but with plenty to talk about: Fast-forward two months, to January 2013. RU drops four Pokemon down to NU; Rhydon, Scolipede, Whimsicott, and Hitmonchan (I know it's a stretch, but still!). NU loses three Pokemon to RU; Emboar, Absol, and Swellow.

    Depending on how much activity this thread receives, we might even end up doing a mini-tournament with the changes that we discussed which would be pretty awesome. I think there's a ton of discussion to go on here if you guys are interested in talking about it, so I am not going to set a specific date for new questions / changes to go up, but I'll throw them up there once it starts dying down.
  3. ium

    ium dein haar riecht gut
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    rhydon will definitely be competing for a spot against golem and regirock, but it doesn't really set itself too far apart from them when there are small yet important differences that each has over the other. with its quad weakness to cinccino's bullet seed, rhydon doesn't accomplish the same feats that regirock—who can recover with drain punch—can do. rhydon also falls short in terms of priority unlike piloswine and golem. golem has sucker punch which is extremely useful on a rock-type considering that it won't care about quick attack from zangoose and can threaten it fairly easily. and obviously like many others, rhydon using eviolite kind of blows. rocky helmet would've been really cool to wear down normal- and flying-types but that's something that only golem and regirock can do slightly better.

    however, the main selling point for using rhydon in my opinion is being able to nail things like exeggutor or ludicolo with megahorn. it also has a few other options too such as aqua tail and crunch for something like golurk, but that's much less important. speaking of which, rhydon is actually one of the things that suffers from being slower than golurk; it can't afford to run hefty speed investment to outspeed the standard. nonetheless, with the extra coverage options that rhydon has for hitting the usual counters, it would definitely be a top choice for a rock-type.

    i won't go into too much detail anymore, but there are obviously some other cool options here. scolipede would be very promising, either with spikestacking or straight-up swords dance. hitmonchan struggles a little because of subdisable haunter, misdreavus, and drifblim but it does have the tools to dispose of some of them on the switch which makes it passable. i wouldn't really be too enthusiastic about foresight since hitmonchan would either be crippled by will-o-wisp or would be taken out straight away by acrobatics from a faster drifblim. i believe hitmonchan should be utilized more for its neat coverage options boosted by iron fist rather than for rapid spin.

    uh, swellow leaving wouldn't really alter too much. choice scarf electric-types are still useful because of gorebyss and stuff. there's still a plethora of normal- and flying-types so the usual swellow counters and checks will still be hanging around. skuntank will obviously have to pick up where absol left off; otherwise, one would have to rely on sheer offensive pressure to keep musharna from screwing over teams. skuntank is already amazing in its own right though; it's slightly bulkier and the poison-type is pretty neat to go along with it. it just slightly separates itself from absol by being more of a utility dark-type.

    i'm really lazy to think about anything else right now but these things just came from the top of my head.

    p.s. we need a "zeb is a loser y/n" poll.
  4. skylight

    skylight winner of smogon's most sizzlin' grill 2014
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    I think that with no Absol, not only will Skuntank be needed for Musharna but CB Golurk could maybe rise in usage too as an option for those who don't necessarily wanna use Skuntank, seeing as it can still deal a lot of damage towards what switches into it (and , given they don't have levitate/flying/normal typing). Offensive in general would probably rise, like Zangoose, Braviary and so on because there's less to take on the more defensive Pokemon that Emboar can help take out. Swellow idk, I think probably Braviary would rise to cover for what Swellow had although the two are different, but when it comes to flying types that's about the close to it as there is. As for the others, Whimsicott won't really pose any threat to the sap sippers and due to it not having another secondary typing unlike Exeggutor that is of use and can help it get through some of the common sap sippers/grass types. But... since it doesn't have that I don't see it being too much of an issue as grass types (or at least ones with secondary typings) are commonly seen in most teams. idk much about the ones from RU, so ya ;(
  5. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

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    Hitmonchan's reputation in RU is poor. Against the Ghost-types in RU, Hitmonchan was dependent on Foresight to hit them hard and otherwise spin. That said, Hitmonchan dropping to NU would theoretically be more of a relief. Resisting Stealth Rock and Rapid Spinning it? Who'd have thought?

    Of course, to make sure Hitmonchan is even remotely close to a viable Rapid Spinner, calcs are in order to see how it will compete with the Ghost-types of the NU tier (of which there are surprisingly few). Hitmonchan's main set is the RU Rapid Spin set, so that set is what will be opposing the many sets of the surprisingly few Ghost-types in the tier:

    Hitomonchan v. Haunter - almost always a 2HKO (with a very low chance of OHKO after Stealth Rock)

    Hitmonchan v. Misdreavus - if Foresight Drain Punches were involved, these would be 3HKO's; however, bar the Nasty Plot set (which is still only 3HKO'd by Ice Punch), Misdreavus can comfortably take Hitmonchan's Ice Punches (5HKO's, 4HKO's after SR)

    Hitmonchan v. Golurk - 2HKO's across the board with Ice Punch, Stealth Rock does not help change Ice Punch to be an OHKO at all

    Hitmonchan v. Drifblim - 2HKO's, some sets can be definitely OHKO'd after Stealth Rock (but not all of them!)

    Hitmonchan v. Lampent - Ice Punch sucks against Lampent, so assuming Foresight was used on the switch - Drain Punch will give a reasonable chance of 2HKOing Lampent. With Stealth Rock, the 2HKO is guaranteed. No OHKO's here either.

    Comparatively, Armaldo's offensive Rapid Spin set can definitely OHKO Haunter, Lampent, and Drifblim without boosts/Foresight (but does in fact have a harder time with Golurk than Hitmonchan at any rate, only netting 4HKO's unboosted). Torkoal and Wartortle, on the other hand, would be replaced by Hitmonchan almost outright in the case of the former (Smashkoal can go toe to toe with the Ghost-types almost as well as Hitmonchan, if not better in some cases, such as under Gravity with Earth Power), and definitely replaced in the case of the latter.

    Other sets might see usage. However, without sufficient boosts from the Bulk Up set, the circumstances are almost exactly the same with some of the same moves (although Life Orb hits slightly harder at any rate - not enough to make an overall difference, however).

    Super-effective hits from Flying and Psychic types easily dismantle Hitmonchan, even with its base 110 Special Defense. Its base physical Defense is 79, and its base HP is 50. This means it is frailer than the other Rapid Spinners overall. Dark-types and Steel-types alike each serve to make Hitmonchan's job of Rapid Spinning much easier, the latter even resisting Stealth Rock on the whole even if Hitmonchan fails at Rapid Spinning. The Dark-types (such as Skuntank!) will also provide elimination of the Ghost-type obstacles (especially since some of those Ghost-types are faster than Hitmonchan!).

    All in all, Hitmonchan would still be a decent addition to NU if it (hopefully) dropped. Spinblockers are still going to be serious business, though.
  6. ThePhalanx

    ThePhalanx

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    So, I was originally going to talk about Scolipede (I love that bugger), but then I started thinking about this:

    [​IMG]
    Physically Defensive Amoonguss will DEFINITELY rise. No doubts about that.

    Rhydon would be iffy to handle. It cannot 2HKO without a Choice Band, and is 4x Weak to its STAB. While Alomomola cannot do more than 62% with either Waterfall or Scald, Amoonguss ensures the OHKO with Giga Drain after one or two layers of spikes (and hey, guess what, a good, fast spikes user just dropped!) or a little prior damage (remember, Rhydon does not even get lefties recovery!). However Rhydon does hit like a truck, doing aprox 40-49% to both of them assuming Max Atk and Eviolite. Choice Band or Life Orb versions can outspeed and 2HKO both, which is something to watch out for. If that is so, I predict a rise in offensive grass/water types such as Serperior, Samurott, Exeggutor and Ludicolo, the latter two boosted by their respective weathers, so we could see a rise in weather as a result. Whimsicott gets priority weather, so that would certainly help.

    What Amoonguss DOES do well, is at the very least check the other three. Whimiscott cannot TOUCH it (uninvested HP Fire/Ice is a 5HKO at best on Physically Defensive sets) while Scolipede can only 3HKO with Megahorn (assuming +0, Jolly and Life Orb) while it can just Clear Smog away any boosts and then switch. Hitmonchan's Adamant Life Orb Iron Fist Ice Punch is also only a 3HKO, and Amoonguss can always just switch out to Alomomola to resist the hit and get its Regenerator.

    Overall, a rise in Amoonguss + Alomomola (also, Emboar is gone, so no need to worry about predicting around Wild Charge + Flare Blitz) would be a definite occurance. Weather might see a boost, as would SubBU Braviary and generally any lure (I personally like lure Rampardos myself).

    Now, a little about Scolipede, since nobody seems to have mentioned it much:

    [​IMG]
    Scolipede can run a variety of different sets, and its versatility alone would give it a place in NU (kind of like Gardevoir). It can be a Spikes + TSpikes set, one that can actually hit back vs spinners and poison types (though again, Amoonguss is a thing). It can also be a Baton Pass set, as it gets both Swords Dance and Agility, and has a better typing that Ninjask imo. Finally, it can just be a standalone late-game Swords Dance sweeper, with a strong STAB in Megahorn and good coverage options (EQ, Rock Slide, Aqua Tail, Superpower), mostly thanks to BW2. It also has a very nice 112 base Speed, just barely slower than Cinccino (though hey, Swellow is gone!).
  7. tennisace

    tennisace Proximity to power deludes some into thinking they wield it.
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    Something cool to note about Whimsicott: it gives Rain teams yet ANOTHER weapon to use, since:

    252SpAtk Life Orb Whimsicott (+SAtk) Hurricane vs 252HP/0SpDef Amoonguss (Neutral): 73% - 86% (316 - 374 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252SpAtk Life Orb Infiltrator Whimsicott (+SAtk) Hurricane vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Ludicolo (+SpDef): 51% - 62% (188 - 226 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    It also completely replaces Jumpluff on Sunny Day teams but that's another point. Given that Scolipede is dropping too, Spikes will be extremely easy to get up (as they were in round 0), since you can sash Scolipede and get up 2 layers off the bat if you really need to, or force switches as Scolipede is the first spiker since, well, Scolipede, with an actual offensive presence.

    Speaking of Scolipede it's going to immediately jump to the top 5 in usage. The only spinner able to touch it in NU is Torkoal really, since Hitmonchan can only spin away the Spikes and not actually take care of the mon itself. I doubt SD/BP sets will be used in general; they weren't really that effective. However, I could be wrong since you're losing three Pokemon that give Scolipede fits (Cincinno is still around though :<) Spikes/Tspikes are really too good to pass up, as evidenced by people using Whirlipede and Glalie and stuff.
  8. citro

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    I would argue it doesn't completely outclass Jumpluff. Jumpluff has the definite niche of Sleep Powder, which is pretty invaluable at guaranteeing free turns of setup. Most offensive sun sweepers (Victreebel etc) can't afford to give up a moveslot for Sleep Powder too.

    Scolipede would be great fun in NU, it's a fast, powerful spiker that would fit better on offensive teams that Garbodor imo. STAB Megahorn to deal with Musharna sounds awesome too. (fuck musharna)
  9. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    I have mentioned Scolipede and Rhydon dropping since the last tier shift. (Please drop Jan 2013)

    [​IMG] ~Scolipede waiting to Megahorn my walls of text

    Scolipede dropping would be a huge change for NU. In a tier where Rapid Spinning is already hard enough as it is comes this bug who can take advantage of its great Base 112, X4 Fighting-type resist, and decent defenses to set up Spikes very well. Scolipede as a Spiker works well in many ways such as a Focus Sash suicide set or a Leftovers set meant to come in on Pokemon and set up Spikes throughout the match while providing excellent offensive presence thanks to its power 120 BP STAB Megahorn and Swarm. A suicide set also has a gift from BW2 in the form of Endeavor which allows Scolipede to drop any Pokemon down to 1 HP after it has used up its Sash and laid out a few layers of Spikes. Sadly, while the suicide set can now abuse Endeavor it also has to watch out for Rhydon, who could easily OHKO it past its Sash with a powerful Rock Blast. Rhydon could also set up Stealth Rock and ruin Scolipede's Sash so that its teammates could OHKO if needed. With the assumption that Hitmonchan would drop as well it would place a Rapid Spin user who can somewhat beat Scolipede. While Hitmonchan can't really hit Scolipede hard at all it can cleanly Rapid Spin its hazards without worrying about a Megahorn or another coverage move such as Earthquake. Ghost-type Pokemon stop non-Foresight Hitmonchan in its tracks though, so a Scolipede + Ghost would still be a powerful force. Scolipede would be incredibly popular to the point that SMASHKOAL would most likely become extremely popular as well in order to prevent it from stacking Spikes against everyone's team. SMASHKOAL also has the ability to defeat Ghost-type Pokemon that Scolipede would partner up with to prevent Rapid Spinning.

    As for a Swords Dance set, without Swellow, Scarf Emboar, and Absol's extremely powerful Sucker Punches to deal with it, it would be an incredibly powerful force in the metagame. A set of Swords Dance / Megahorn / Aqua Tail / Poison Jab with either Life Orb or Leftovers would easily be its best set in this metagame. Swords Dance makes Scolipede's Megahorn extremely threatening, having the power of OHKOing even physically defensive Amoonguss after Stealth Rock while its coverage moves allow Scolipede to hit key Pokemon. Aqua Tail hits the would be targets of Earthquake such as Regirock and Probopass while hitting Golurk and Rhydon. A 252 HP Eviolite Rhydon is cleanly OHKOed by +2 LO Aqua Tail while a physically defensive set goes down with a layer of Spikes and SR. Scolipede having the ability to OHKO extremely key Pokemon in Golurk and Rhydon after a boost is a huge boon for it and truly makes it a scary Pokemon to face. Since Scolipede only has a single slot of fill up the best way to make use of it would be by using a secondary STAB in Poison Jab. While using both Megahorn and Poison Jab might seem somewhat weird it actually plays a very big role in Scolipede's moveset. Poison Jab allows Scolipede to hit Gurdurr, Hitmonchan, and the Birds (Braviary, Altaria, and Articuno KACAW) at the same time and get off excellent damage. +2 Poison Jab OHKOes Braviary, Altaria, and Articuno while cleanly 2HKOing Gurdurr and OHKOing Hitmonchan. Scolipede dropping would be a major change in NU and would definitely be one of the best Pokemon in the metagame. (Hell it was a huge asshole back in Round 0, it would be an even bigger asshole now with BW2's toys)
  10. Annoyer

    Annoyer =)~

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    OK I like theorymoning so this is a perfect fit. :)

    The absence of Emboar will be a huge boost for Bulky Offense teams and a loss for Choice teams. Choiced teams will lose one of their best wallbreakers. Most Bulky Offensive teams get OHKOd or 2HKOd by Emboar and outsped since pokemon like Exeggutor, Golurk, Gurdurr, Skuntank, Amoonguss, and even Musharna get destroyed by Emboar. Absol's absence will let weather teams function better as well as Trick Room teams and frail pokemon such as Cincinno as they will not have to worry about absurdly powerful priority coming their way. Without Swellow, the need for a Rock/Steel-type on every team will be lessened. Scarf Braviary will also rise in usage as a Swellow-esque Pokemon I guess.

    Rhydon will be similarly dealt with in the same fashion as Golem since they have similar typing, stats, and movepool. Ludicolo and Exeggutor will have to be wary of switching in as Megahorn demolishes them. Scolipede will impact the metagame heavily since its unique typing and movepool are amazing. We will finally receive a speedy spiker that can dish out damage at the same time. Toxic Spikes will get another user but also another absorber. Scolipede can threaten many things out while setting up Spikes on the likes of Alomomola, Amoonguss, Cacturne, and many more. Its Swords Dance can also be threatening since a +2 Megahorn (possibly Swarm-boosted) is nothing to scoff at, but it may not be worth giving up entry hazards.

    Whimsicott will be easily dealt with in my opinion. Priority Encore is easily predictable and any Grass-types will counter it cold. A possible SubSeed set with Hurricane might be cool to damage Grass-types that would otherwise wall it cold, but I doubt an uninvested Hurricane will do much damage. Tailwind (<3) will get another user that isn't a bird/kacaw. Hitmonchan will have a hard time separating itself from other Fighting-types without Rapid Spin so I think Rapid Spin will be its only set. A Life Orb Iron Fist Ice Punch OHKOs both Haunter and Drifblim, while Golurk gets 2HKOd. Misdreavus will be the only common Ghost-type to spinblock Hitmonchan successfully.

    Altogether, it's pretty hard to figure out what would get a boost through these exchanges without testing. Psychic-types will love the absence of Absol, but that will increase the usage of Skuntank, while they will also be threatened out by Scolipede. Gardevoir will be cool in this metagame as a Choice Scarf set can revenge Scolipede, while a Support set can Trace Prankster from Whimsicott. Weather teams will also be better in this metagame. Whimsicott can provide them priority weather while also giving a free switch-in with Memento and Whimsicott can abuse Rain via Hurricane. They won't be revenge killed by Absol and won't have to worry about Swellow sweeping once the weather disappears.

    FREE SCOLIPEDE
  11. /B/utterfree

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    I'm not too certain Whimsicott will be anything resembling "healthy" to NU. Boosting the capabilities of priority weather and being able to abuse Rain via Hurricane alone is somewhat of a "this thing is going to get tons of use". Grass-types don't necessarily wall it cold (I combine Priority Taunt, Toxic, and Stun Spore - not even Sap Sippers evade affliction, and switch-ins to them will be colossally predictable because how common SubSeed will also be). Whimsicott can do SubSeed slightly better than the Harvest users (Exeggutor and Tropius) due to priority in both moves, overall better base Speed, and no quadruple weaknesses to Bug and Ice, respectively, to worry about. While Whimsicott doesn't get to use infinite Sitrus Berries, it isn't overly reliant on them.

    That said, some sets of Whimsicott are going to be manageable moreso than others. But it does give competition to Liepard and Volbeat for a job they otherwise didn't have trouble doing. The latter has to worry about being Taunt bait now. Whimsicott's base Speed, often uninvested, is 116. Liepard's base Speed, for comparison purposes, is 106. Another Prankster of note is Murkrow, whose base Speed is only 91. Whimsicott can simply Taunt them and then have a field day afterward!
  12. Ewil

    Ewil

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    The Scolipede and Hitmonchan drop is a real balanced thing since they provides an add of a multi-spiker and a new spinner to the meta.

    Before it becames RU, i was using Scolipede in NU and he did an amazing job for me as a suicide spiker. His awesome speed provides a fast spike-setting and Swarm+Megahorn+Sash can open an huge hole in the opponent team before he dies.
    But the meta evolves and now we have a lot of multi-hitters like Cincinno, Golem and the (theorymonned) new Rhydon, so Scolipede has to worry about them if he sees them in the Team Preview. Since SR are an huge problem for Scolipede, loosing 25% and have an useless item, a spinner can be a good add to the team (and a spin-blocker, obv), Hitmonchan is a good add and can have good sinergy with the rest of the team. The adding of another Fight Type is always welcomed since they are a little poor in NU.
    Hitmonchan can also perform a decent attacking set i think with elemental punches and Close Combat.
    I can see Whimsicott as a broken one since priority leech seed/sub/taunt/encore can be very annoy and can force everyone to run at least a Taunt user, a Grass type or a Sap Sipper user, i think that the only real hard counter to him can be Piloswine with a STAB Icicle Spear that can break the Sub and kills him. He can also run a Sunny Day or a Rain Dance set and becomes a real good abuser, expecially for the last one with Hurricane.
    Rhydon can replace the use of Golem (if you don't need a pirority move) and maybe regirock as a Stealth Rocker, but i don't see him shines too much expecially as a sweeper with a double dance or similar sets.

    The loss of Swellow doesn't hurt too much i think. Yes we lose a good sweeper, but we have Zangoose that can perform a similar role and as great speed too (yeah, he can't outspeed things like Cincinno).

    Absol is a good sweeper and we'll miss his powerfull presence and high crit ratio, but we can live without him.

    The loss of Emboar is the big loss for me. A damn good CB/CS abuser and he can even go mixed ! The absence of a devastating STAB Flare Blitz coming out from a damn good ATK stat is what we miss more, because it forces players to sacrifice a pokemon to send a revenger or carry an high DEF pokemon like most notably Regircok and Musharna to counter him, and now we all can run more frail (not too much eh) pokemon without the fear being Flare Blitzed to hell and that can shake up a bit the meta and rends Scolipede and Whimsicott even more viable.
  13. Audiosurfer

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    On the topic of Scolipede and Hitmonchan, I wouldn't really call it a balanced trade. As others have said, Hitmonchan is likely not spinning against Ghosts without Foresight, and it is not much better than the spinners we have now anyways. I think SmashKoal would be more effective to better deal with Spikers such as Scolipede and Garbodor, along with the fact that it can bust through more Ghost-Types after the boost. Scolipede, however, would be a very powerful Spiker. It's very fast, and thus could guarantee a few layers of Spikes with a suicide lead set. SD sets would also be pretty powerful imo since they could take advantage of its great Speed and good coverage to rip through teams. As EBeast's calcs show it's extremely powerful with minimal hazards support. I'm not sure how good a BP set would be, if only because I think the frail nature of most sweepers in NU would make it difficult to get one in safely consistently. I think it'd be better off trying to sweep on its own. It's already capable of doing it anyways, so BPing seems sorta unnecessary.
  14. Axa

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    I'm not entirely sure that Wartortle would be replaced by Hitmonchan entirely. Wartortle is still the bulkiest spinner in NU, and the potential to burn an incoming switchin is pretty immense. Hitmonchan's typing also holds it back at the same time that it is a benefit, with weaknesses to Flying and Psychic quite crippling in the current NU metagame.

    What really holds Hitmonchan back in my opinion is its speed tier - 76 sits just below the magic 80 of NU. This means things like Gardevoir can easily switch in and threaten the OHKO with Psychic (both offensive and defensive sets can comfortably take a hit). Even Garbodor threatens an OHKO with Gunk Shot while Hitmonchan does jack to it, while Wartortle can at least pray for a burn. The fact that Hitmonchan is very dependent on prediction also hampers it - AcroBlimp can be beaten soundly with Ice Punch with SR, but choosing the wrong move immediately threatens it with death. Wartortle can't hit a sack of beans, but at the very least Scald is a fairly reliable move in general, and Seismic Toss or Toxic are always options for it, while Hitmonchan would have to give up Iron Fist for Seismic Toss (not that it should, since Drain Punch outclasses it in almost every way).

    Hitmonchan's big prize is its capability to hit hard, yet that also exposes its immense frailty. I think a 252HP/40Atk spread might be more viable for it, as it allows it to take a hit or two while still threatening enough offense to KO crucial threats.

    I think Hitmonchan would certainly carve out its unique niche - it'd be the fastest spinner, and can actually threaten Pokemon like Cincinno from switching in - but I doubt it'd replace the bulkier spinners.
  15. Amarillo

    Amarillo
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    I would like to say one thing: the fact that current Spikestacking teams are not required to use a Ghost-type. Good Ghost-types are around, but it's a rare type. As a result, spikestacking teams /should/ be really limited in their build considering the rare Spike user, rare Ghosts, and the synergy as it happens.

    However, current NU doesn't require that. Why? Because the only spinner Smashkoal has his way around spinblockers. Successful spinblocker is really limited to Frillish at the moment. And Frillish doesn't work unless you stall. The remaining spinners are really rare, or give massive momentum away in buckets. Armaldo sounds dandy and all but fails to do what Rock-types are supposed to do (check birds) and I say is a big problem if you go for a supporter type set.

    Bringing a ghost-type is useless, and no one has spinners that can last through hazards, so why bring it? This is the current mentality on Spikestacking teams right now. Zeb's Heist, and other teams similar to it, are really strong because Spikes are easy to abuse, easy to set up, and most importantly, most teams don't have a way to get rid of them. If they do, they are using Torkoal and consequently don't have a way to consistently spin multiple times (because of its SR weakness.) Right now Garbodor sees less usage than it deserves...

    but Scolipede will be hyped. And Scolipede will be good. You'll see it as top 5 and everywhere. You'll see Golem being wildly popular again just so that you can prevent multiple layers from this beast. And you'll see this type of no-Ghost Spikestacking teams not being punished because there's essentially no Spinners that can spin repeatedly.

    You can laugh at hitmonchan all you want for not being able to bypass Ghost-types. I'd just say having an option is better than not having one at all.

    If we see Hitmonchan drop alongside Scolipede, we'll see the usage of Acrofloon, Haunter, and stuff (rightfully) increasing. Otherwise we'll just see a bunch of Scolipede leads cheesing the same strategy over and over.
  16. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    I would imagine that Golem would be almost totally replaced by Rhydon. Rhydon has better Attack and much better bulk over Sturdy and Sucker Punch. Golem would still be a slightly better lead than Rhydon because of those two things, but leads do not take such an important role anymore. Perhaps Scolipede would change that slightly, though. At the very least I am speaking for myself; I know I would definitely forgo using Golem for Rhydon. Nowadays I primarily use Regirock for my Rock-type.

    Regirock would still probably be good despite Rhydon's presence. It will be a better wall than Rhydon despite Rhydon having higher statistical bulk. Regirock has Leftovers and Drain Punch, making it much harder for it to be worn out. It also does not have all of the crippling weaknesses Rhydon has. In addition, Regirock has access to Thunder Wave.
  17. FLCL

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    I can see Rhydon being used more as a tank than a SR setting wall. It has much higher attack than Regirock and Golem and powerful moves such as Earthquake, Stone Edge, and Megahorn to go with it. A max Attack set with Eviolite or even Choice Band will be devistating once Alomomola is removed from the opponent's team. Of course, you can slap SR on those sets since Rhydon can find many free turns against Normal and Flying types.
  18. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken seize the day
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    hi guys!! i'm gonna pick out a few points from everyone's posts and stuff and give a few general thoughts on each pokemon. sorry for late responses though. i'll be talking about everything so this might seem intimidating - if you just want to read about one pokemon or w/e, pick it out from the bolded part and then scroll down to the bottom because i'll have a few more questions for you guys. :o

    also the obama avatars are dumb and i confused several people's posts multiple times so sorry if i messed up :( and no "zeb is a loser y/n" poll sry

    rhydon: one thing that several people talked about was the competition with the other sr setters. i really like the points that ium and FLCL brought up - rather than trying to be physically dominant, NU rhydon should probably just stick to the cool coverage options that it has over golem and regirock, which means we would probably be seeing it on more bulky offense-esque teams that would love a lure for exeggutor or something of the sort. DTC - i don't think i could agree that rhyhorn would purely outclass golem. sturdy is a godsend and definitely factors into golem's playstyle. even if you weren't to lead with golem, sturdy and priority are still both its largest advantages over its competition. i was explaining to someone else earlier what the difference between regirock and golem was; while regirock generally performs all of the duties that you'd expect from a bulky rock-type much better than golem, golem still performs much better in disadvantageous matchups. for example, golem has an easier time dealing with stuff like gorebyss, since it doesn't have to worry so much about being straight-up ohkoed or set up on as it switches out. golem brings something to the table that rhydon (nor any other rock-type) does.

    at the same time though, rhydon is physically unrivaled by even regirock. if what you need is a 100% counter to something like zangoose, physically defensive rhydon is your man. zangoose's guts-boosted cc does 37.19 - 43.96%, which is far and above just about anything else available in NU and it actually has offensive presence, unlike the punchless metang. i could see a few players being able to work rhydon into stallish teams, where it seems like it could be a neat fit.

    more than anything, i think rhydon would just add yet another potential rock-type to our stable of normal- and bird-type checks, and would probably be tops in that group along with regirock, golem, carracosta, and potentially lairon.

    hitmonchan: one of the reasons why i wanted to discuss hitmonchan was to see just how bad our spinners were in comparison to some of the ones from other tiers. hitmonchan brings a lot to the table that our current spinners don't have (notably an SR resistance), but at the same time, it does carry its own flaws. what i think that it will bring to NU is more variety, at least on the spinning end - and with the likely dominance of scolipede, having a reliable, not-hazard-weak spinner seems like one of the best things to happen for NU. Ewil's mention of a 'balanced trade' is something that i think is rather interesting, even though imo scolipede has the upper hand. i'd agree with amarillo - i think one thing that we can expect from these changes is a big influx in spinners and ghost-types, and hitmonchan would probably become our most common one alongside smashkoal. at the very worst, it resists scolipede's primary stab (as well as rock slide) and can reliably switch into scolipede and spin, or nail the incoming ghost-type with ice punch. the only one that isn't crushed by ice punch is misdreavus, which also loses to foresight should hitmonchan choose to pack that.

    as far as other sets, hitmonchan has a plethora of options (subbu strikes me the most, maybe subpunch or even just lo + 3 attacks) but will still struggle mostly against musharna. musharna's usage is something that i think will fluctuate but more than likely settle a little bit lower than it is now. it lost a counter in absol and gained a free switch-in with hitmonchan, but most of the shifts are pretty iffy for it at best. for one, it's going to have to stare down what will probably be the #1 pokemon in NU in scolipede. i mean, scoli can't switch in on musharna at all, but mushy also doesn't dare switch into scolipoop. okay i'm starting to talk more about other things but i think hitmonchan would definitely see plenty of usage in a newly hazards-based metagame, imo.

    whimsicott: i get the feeling that whimsicott would be underused and underestimated at the beginning of its stint in nu, then get picked up by a few good players using it well and quietly be one of the better mons in the tier. you guys didn't talk too much about it (aside from tennisace) or kind of brushed it off as useless in comparison to the other drops, so i'd like to see a little bit more of what you guys think about it. i think that weather-based teams might look a lot more favorable to people given that there's a new setter and that it deals with just about every drop rather well. also, the loss of absol would cut out one of the most important offensive tools that people would normally utilize to handle these kinds of teams.

    scolipede: maybe i'd be proven wrong, but i cannot imagine this guy being anything but the next king of NU (and the rest of you seem to think so, too). there's really nothing that compares to it, in both spiking abilities and sweeping capacity. i mean honestly, i was somewhat surprised at golurk's huge usage in NU these past shifts, given that i don't think it's really head and shoulders above the rest of NU... scolipede would be metagame-defining, whether it's stacking spikes or whatever. like i pointed out earlier, i think that NU would quickly become a metagame of ghosts and spinners, just because scolipede is so good at being able to stack spikes. i really don't have too much to say directly about it since you guys generally described its presence in NU really well imo (props to EBeast, especially).

    regirock would probably see an extended role purely as a counter to sd scolipede, as well as maybe bulky hitmonchan (man if that thing had intimidate...) and various scarf users, like gardevoir and braviary. we might even see a resurgence of stuff like stone edge gurdurr if scolipede becomes a big issue, which would bring the popularity of golurk back up again...

    --

    a few shoutouts to two posts i liked in particular: ThePhalanx, i enjoyed your thoughts on physically defensive amoonguss. i am not quite sure i would agree with it actually increasing in usage, but moreso that it still retains its high usage that it always had in NU. i also am a really big fan of Annoyer's post, which kind of captured exactly what i wanted to see out of this thread. keep it up, please! :)

    discuss away!
  19. tennisace

    tennisace Proximity to power deludes some into thinking they wield it.
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    I'm going to jump the gun here and answer #4, though from the perspective of one month post-drop. Heeeeere we go! (ps i'm doing it in reverse order)

    Honorable mentions: Exeggutor, Torkoal, Zangoose, Regirock, Gardevoir

    These 5 are in no particular order. I've singled these out for a bunch of reasons, but mainly because they all both benefit greatly and are harmed by the supposed changes. Specs Eggy loves Spikes support, while Harvest Eggy loves Tspikes. However, Scolipede is a pain in the butt since it really doesn't like Tspikes. Torkoal is a good spinner I guess, but I've never been a fan of it. It doesn't have much staying power, and even after a Shell Smash I'm pretty sure stuff outspeeds it. Zangoose loves Spikes support but hates opposing Spikes support, since it's a sweeper on a timer (notice a pattern?). Gardevoir will still be good, but it's a tweener in terms of both speed and bulk. Regirock gets the boot out of a crowded group of Rock-types but is still really good, however the only thing it really has going for it is the massive bulk. This metagame is going to be pretty polarized in terms of either attribute, and I don't think Gardevoir will do either well enough to crack the top 15.

    #15 - Samurott

    I debated the last 5 spots for a few minutes before going with the order you'll read them in. Samurott has a few above-average options it can run, and can break through a few of the stallier cores. However, it's weak to both Tspikes and Spikes, which won't be a great trait to have. Plus, it's kinda slow and easily revenged.

    #14 - Golem

    In the last few metagames, the top 15 is clustered with Rock types, and Golem just barely squeaks in here at the "bottom" of the group. As a lead, I think it's going to be as effective as ever really. People won't want to lead with a spinner for fear of losing it early. Scolipede leads will get up a layer or two depending on the player, in exchange for either Scolipede or SR of your own. Golem gets Rock Blast, which is pretty useful for Focus Sash varients of Scolipede (provided it, you know, hits). That said, there are going to be a lot of times where Sturdy is broken, and Golem is very weak from the special side.

    #13 - Alomomola

    Alomomola is already a good mon, but in this metagame, it will be relied upon even more heavily with the amount of Spikes being thrown around. It will still be able to do its job, since Regenerator + the fact that there are few things that can outright OHKO it means it will get Wishes up and passed throughout a match. Toxic Spikes aren't kind to it though, as they take away from its ability to Wish stall for 5-6 turns at a time.

    #12 - Rhydon

    The first of the new drops to appear here, Rhydon will fill its old role in the metagame before it left: set up SR, tank shit, hit like a truck. It almost reminds me of Piloswine in the current metagame, since not much can hurt it on the Physical side, and it gets really good coverage. Megahorn is really cool for Pokemon like Amoonguss and the Psychic types, and it gets Rock Blast to beat Substitute Pokemon and Focus Sash Scolipede. The main difference between Rhydon and Golem is that you're substituting Priority and a bit more speed for sheer bulk and coverage. Guaranteed someone will dick around with Rock Polish Rhydon for shits and giggles too...

    #11 - Charizard

    Charizard seems like a weird choice in a hazards dominated metagame, but realize that I'm predicting usage stats, not viability. Kids love them some Charizard, and now that there's a legitimate spinner in the tier, I expect people to use it quite often. It also helps that Charizard kinda smacks Amoonguss and non-boosted Ludicolo around a bit. There are going to be a ton of Rock-types around though, and Charizard doesn't really have much to get around them outside HP Grass or Focus Miss.

    #10 - Ludicolo

    Ludicolo picks up right where it left off, as a strong mon with strong coverage and strong sets. Rain Dance + Spikes teams should see a fair bit of usage, and Ludicolo could always use the extra power for breaking through the Alomomola + Amoonguss + Lickilicky-type cores. The metagame also lost the strongest user of Priority in the tier, so it should be able to clean up vs most offensive teams not carrying the next Pokemon on the list...

    #9 - Skuntank

    Yep. Skuntank becomes the de-facto best user of priority in the tier, and as a handy bonus, it absorbs Toxic Spikes, which is lovely for really any team. I can see it becoming an integral part of Dark/Psychic/Fighting or Dark/Ghost/Fighting cores, which will definitely be around given the Pokemon yet to be listed.

    #8 - Armaldo

    Armaldo does a couple things in this metagame that people seem to like: it can set up SR, and it can Spin. The latter is going to be very important since even with the addition of Hitmonchan, there still aren't very many good spinners in the tier. Armaldo is a generally solid mon, with good offensive STAB and ok defensive typing, it'll be able to spin and keep Scolipede kind of at-bay with some support (which it will definitely get). Again, this is usage stats. Would I want to use Armaldo? Not really. People will though, which is why it appears here at #8.

    #7 - Braviary

    Here's where it starts to get interesting. There's going to be a ton more Scarf Braviary running around, like in Round 0 when Scolipede was first legal. It's immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and it doesn't need the extra power when you can put up a couple layers of spikes and just wear down the opponent. One thing to note about CB Braviary: Superpower doesn't come close to 2hkoing Rhydon.

    #6 - Musharna

    Mushy is going to be really good on the bulkier offensive teams. Since Scolipede has a good chance at getting up 2 layers of Toxic Spikes at the beginning of a match, a good bulky offensive team will be able to wear down the opponent before bringing out Musharna and going for an end-game sweep. It's also going to be used as a very safe switch-in for Hitmonchan, since Hitmonchan can't really touch it and on a more offensive team, you can run HP Ground for a Skuntank switch-in. I'll admit I'm not too confident about this prediction; Skuntank could very well dominate Psychic-types in the tier, meaning Musharna gets less opportunities against higher-level players.

    #5 - Golurk

    Top 5 woooo! Golurk is going to still be Golurk. It resists most of what Scolipede throws at it. It checks Cincinno (as long as it doesn't switch into Bullet Seed) and other Normal-types (well ok not Kangaskhan but Kanga has its own problems in this meta). Hitmonchan is forced to use Foresight if it wants a guaranteed spin, limiting its usefulness. It sets up SR pretty well, and finally, it's really strong. Golurk won't really change much from the current meta, except maybe it's going to be a bit less "bulky" from the increased wear and tear from Spikes/Tspikes. That's going to happen to every grounded bulky Pokemon though.

    #4 - Amoonguss

    It's fat. What more do you want me to say here sheesh. As an added bonus from what Amoonguss does currently, it absorbs Toxic Spikes for defensive-minded teams. Also, Hitmonchan can do exactly: dick to Amoonguss, which is nice.

    #3 - Hitmonchan

    There are a bunch of Pokemon below this spot that can check or counter Hitmonchan. The reason it's up this high is because that doesn't matter when we're talking about pure usage: it's a spinner which isn't weak to Stealth Rock, something NU has never had in the 5th generation. People are going to go absolutely bananas, especially with Scolipede around. I don't buy in to people who mention SubBU sets, or offensive sets for it. If you want a boosting Fighting-type, use Gurdurr. If you want an offensive Fighting-type, use Sawk. If you want a spinner, well...

    #2 - Cincinno

    I'm probably going to get some flack for having Cincinno this high in a Spikes dominated metagame, but hear me out. Cincinno gets great coverage and outspeeds Scolipede, meaning it can revenge essentially every unboosted offensive threat in the tier. If you can keep Spikes and Tspikes off your side of the field, Cincinno will absolutely tear apart tweener offensive/bulky offensive teams (I'm talking about the kind that think Rhydon + Musharna + 4 sweepers is going to be bulky enough). If you can't, well, a large amount of people will try anyway. I've said it before and I'll say it again: this is usage stats. Cincinno isn't an S-tier mon right now, and it definitely won't be in this hypothetical meta. It will be used a hell of a lot though, and that's what matters.

    #1 - Scolipede

    Jesus my fingers hurt from typing Scolipede, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes so many times throughout this post. Even if Scolipede isn't the "best" Pokemon in the tier as crowned by the top players, it's going to be #1 in usage solely because of it's versatility. You want a suicide lead? Scolipede can do that. You want an offensive pivot that can set up a layer or hammer a switch-in? Scolipede can do that. You want fast Pokemon who can revenge a weakened team? Scolipede can do that. I miss it so much ugh can we get it back now please ;_;

    OK I'm done. I might respond to other points later, but I don't want to totally dominate this thread (or I might get carpal tunnel syndrome before I can post in the suspect thread).
  20. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    Only answering part of #2 and #4

    Articuno is pretty anti-meta now, and with Scolipede, Hitmonchan, Whimsicott and Rhydon dropping down, along with there being no more Emboar, it would just be even better at its roles. Aside from Rock Sliding Scolipede, most of these Pokemon stuggle against Articuno. Just by using its STABs, it can really hurt some of them. Hurricane is an easy OHKO on Hitmonchan, and all Hitmonchan can hope to do is land a Thunderpunch, but Hitmonchan is slower so it will have to hope that Hurricane misses it. Whismicott is also an easy OHKO, but Articuno's SubRoost set is capable of making Whimsicott fairly helpless, which is also a large plus. Scolipede can really Articuno with Rock Slide, but it obviously gets OHKOed with Hurricane. Another impressive feat is that 252/0 Rhydon and 4/0 Scolipede get OHKOed by a Timid Life Orb Ice Beam after Stealth Rock.

    Oh yeah and Articuno has the natural bulk to survive a Rock Slide from Scolipede regardless, assuming it is jolly and does not have a Focus Sash.

    252 Atk Scolipede Rock Slide vs 4 HP/0 Def Articuno: 79.5% - 94.41% (2 hits to KO)

    Articuno also benefits from Hitmonchan's presence - while it is a poor spinner in RU, nobody can deny that it has Foresight! With this, it becomes the only Pokemon in the tier that can guarantee tht you get Rapid Spin off, which is a big deal when you just really need a spinner. As Zeb, Ice Punch is a huge deal as well, mauling Golurk and Drifblim while doing plenty to Haunter, making it actually reliable in NU. Drain Punch is also a huge plus, as it gets more recovery than any other Pokemon in NU that is capable of spinning, which is really cool. What this means is that Hitmonchan is easy to fit as a spinner on a team, meaning Articuno also is easier to fit on a team.

    I guess I might as well talk about my projected usage stats while I'm at it.

    At #1 we got this Amoonguss. Almost every change in the tier affects Amoonguss in a good way. Rhydon? Giga Drain can make it so then Rhydon was almost inconsequential, as Rhydon will not do enough back to it. The biggest advantage, however, is a loss of Emboar and Swellow. These were two Pokemon that wrecked Amoonguss, and they would be gone. Not many physical attackers would have any hope of getting past it now, other than Bravary of course. It would be improved by a ton.

    Cinccino would probably be #2, and the changes just make it better. a Jolly Cinccino is the best solution to Focus Sashed Scolipedes in the game, outspeeding it and OHKOing it before it can lay down a layer of entry hazards, which is a huge plus.Absol's Sucker Punch and Swellow's outspeed will also be gone, making Cinccino have a much easier time. Hitmonchan OHKOs with an Adamant, Iron Fist, Life Orb Mach Punch 100% of the time though, which is pretty depressing, but otherwise Cinccino likes it.

    Scolipede would probably be #3. It is easily the best offensive Spiker in the tier, having a useful 112 base speed and a great offensive movepool, which includes the almighty Megahorn. Swellow moving up is the best thing that could happen, and Emboar moving up is also pretty good. Rhydon dropping down, other Rock-types being common and Cincinno existing wouldn't, but it would be an excellent Spiker.

    Braviary at #4. While Rhydon isn't helping it, with Swellow gone the amount of competition for Braviary is scarce, which would likely propel it to #4. Rhydon's access to Rock Blast, stupidly high Physical bulk, and such wouldn't help the Bulk Up set or even sets with Superpower, but when it comes to the sheer power of a Brave Bird, Braviary is the man for the job. 3 of the 4 drops would be weak to Flying, which is bosslike. People that want a Swellow replacement (Scarf) or a Battering Ram that destorys Amoonguss (Band) would likely go for this thing.

    Golurk is #5. Same old Pokemon we all know and love with the bonus of destorying Skuntank! Its weaker than Absol and gets OHKOed by Earthquake. Now a lot of the Dark-types can't even beat Golurk, since it is pretty bulky and has Fighting-type moves. CB Emboar OHKOing it with Flare Blitz is aslo no longer a problem. With Hitmonchan being the new premier spinner, however, it has to watch out for Ice Punch, and Amoonguss is annoying, but otherwise its a pro.

    Hitmonchan at #6. As the new premier spinner, Hitmonchan would replace what Armaldo is doing right now in the usage stats, but probably a little bit higher than it because its better. Hitmonchan is capable of 2HKOing all common spinblockers other than Misdreavus, and it has many other viable sets including SubPunch and an All-Out Attacker. Its Mach Punch would be weaker than Absol's Sucker Punch, but it requires less prediction and it more powerful than Gurdurr's Mach Punch (potentially with a Life Orb too).

    Rhydon at #7. The main thing holding this thing back from being higher is an ugly mushroom known as Amoognuss. What Rhydon can handle well it handles extremely well. Most physical attackers can't get past it, and Rhydon can do a ton of damage back in return. However, Pokemon like Ludicolo and Samurott are crazy hard for Rhydon to beat, but some Pokemon like Stuntank are almost worthless to it. It is also a good offensive threat, having Rock Polish and a better attack than all other Rocks in the tier and having that sweet Ground-typing.

    Alomomola at #8. Amoonguss rising = more Alomomolas in NU. That's really it, honestly... it does well against Rhydon at least, but the former is really the reason.

    Sawk at #9. Emboar was a strong Fighting-type, and Sawk is a strong Fighting-type. While he doesn't have Flare Blitz or a Fire-typing, Sawk is still a similar battering ram that will probably stay around the same in usage.

    Skuntank at #10. This should be self explanitory - its a Dark-type and Absol left. Emboar leaving is also good since there was no way in a million years that Skuntank was getting past him. The RU drops, however, do not treat Skuntank well. Scolipede is okay, Hitmonchan resists Dark moves and deals a ton of damage, Rhydon is public enemy #1, and Whimsicott wouldn't be that common. However, the need for a new Dark-type is what would move Skuntank up.

    Musharna at #11. Absol leaving is really good for this thing, and countering Hitmonchan is a huge plus as well. Otherwise, it is really similar to how it was before, and Musharna's usage will likely stay around the same.

    Ludicolo at #12. There were 3 really good things that happened for this guy, which is Swellow leaving (which was a huge pain for non-rain dance variants), Absol leaving (most powerful priority move in the tier by far), and the ability to blast through several of the newcomers in the rain. Scolipede will OHKO with Megahorn, Hitmonchan's Mach Punch hurts a lot and its Close Combat hurts even more, Amoonguss is still really common, and its a huge gain and loss overall.

    Charizard at #13. Emboar is the tier's most common Fire-type, and Charizard likes most of the tier changes anyway. Scolipede having Rock Slide access is infuirating, but Hitmonchan's introduction is something that it can take advantage of - it can destroy it and Rapid Spin is easier to pull of then before. In the case that a FWG core was to be made, Charizard would have more priority than before.

    Gardevior at #14. Not being able to destory Emboar and now having to put up with the faster Sawk instead is heartbreakening, really. Absol leaving is good, but not when Stuntank arguably does even better at beating it! Its pretty high up there to begin with anyway, and I think its usage is prone to drop eventually, even after these changes and Absol moving up. tbh the only reason it is here is it wouldn't lose that much usage at first.

    Zangoose at #15. Not having competition from Swellow is a huge plus and people that want a Status Orb attacker on their team will pick this thing if they want a super strong Facade. Its underrated too being with and its usage it expected to rise eventually, right? Rhydon being an absolute jerk is not fun though.
  21. Axa

    Axa

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    Wartortle. Say what you like about it, but it is still a viable spinner.

    I think one Pokemon that might slip through the cracks might be Weezing. It counters Scolipede fairly handily, is immune to Earthquake, and can Burn Rhydon or Hitmonchan fairly safely and takes little from their attacks. If Skuntank usage rises, it might not have to fear Psychics so much anymore (barring Musharna). I don't think it'll ever be in top 5 due to Musharna existing, but it seems like a decent check to the new dropdowns.
  22. EonADS

    EonADS

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    Yes. Samurott utterly loves Scolipede as a teammate, particularly a bulky Spiker set. Scolipede keeps Grass-types off his back, provide hazards support, and keep momentum up on an offensive team. Also a lure for Fire-types (Scarf Emboar really comes to mind), but you'll really want Rhydon or another Flying-resist for Braviary. Tbh, Scolipede and Rhydon are an excellent combination; Rhydon brings in Grass-types for Scolipede to laugh at and add Stealth Rock to the hazard mix, while Scolipede lets Rhydon take pesky Fire-, Flying-, and Rock-type attacks while absorbing T-spikes and Spiking everywhere.

    Bulk Up Braviary would be even deadlier than it is already in a Scolipede/Rhydon metagame, it sets up on both of them with ease and really benefits from both Spikes and Toxic Spikes from Scolipede. It would also set up all over Hitmonchan, although Whimsicott might cause it problems.

    Swoobat could potentially become one of the deadliest Pokemon in NU (not that it isn't there already) in the Rhydon-Scolipede meta. It has STAB on Scolipede and a higher base Speed, while it gets Giga Drain for Rhydon, though +2 Lefties Psychic probably manages a 2HKO after Spikes and +2 Lefties Stored Power manages the same after SR (with LO both become OHKOs). Hitmonchan just stands there gaping unless you try setting up on it like a moron, and a large portion of the tier is already hurt badly by Swoobat. The rise of Skuntank to pick up the slack from Absol's departure would be somewhat worrying, but most teams are already well-equipped to handle a Skuntank (Plus Rhydon is there now). Unfortunately, I don't see SubCM getting much use; Cinccino usage will stay high, Armaldo will stick around, and Rhydon now appears with Rock Blast at the ready too. Frankly, SubCM will just get picked apart.

    Eelektross could be good too. The special set gets coverage on the two best of the new arrivals, is immune to Spikes/T-Spikes, and builds momentum with Volt Switch (and it makes your opponent switch more often because of that same move). Coil will also be really deadly in the new meta with the ability to set up on both of the new arrivals very handily and really takes advantage of the Spikes support Scolipede will bring. Amoonguss will still be a dick to CoilTross, though.
  23. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    " Also a lure for Fire-types (Scarf Emboar really comes to mind)"

    That's actually one of the Pokemon that was moved up to RU for this theorymon session.

    SubBU on its own would do worse in a Rhydon metagame as Rhydon's extremely powerful Rock Blast go right through Braviary's Substitutes and if Rhydon really wanted to it could pack Roar to phaze it out. With Scolipede support with Spikes and Toxic Spikes I do agree that Rhydon has a harder time coming into Braviary all the time as it lack Leftovers recover and and it hates the residual damage from TSpikes.

    Defensive teams could also start appearing more with Hitmonchan and Rhydon dropping alongside Emboar and Absol leaving the tier. Rhydon is a fantastic user of Stealth Rock and a great physical wall, capable of taking even Toxic Boost Zangoose's Close Combats. Rhydon even has access to Roar to spread around damage from entry hazards or phazing out SubBU Braviary if it gets too many boosts in. Hitmonchan would be a useful Rapid Spin user to have since it actually resists Stealth Rock while not caring about the hazards version of Scolipede. Hitmonchan could pair alongside Skuntank and Musharna to provide a solid core that can Rapid Spin, deal with Psychic and Ghost-type to assist Chan, and Musharna to provide a win condition, Heal Bell support, and a counter to Sawk.
  24. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken seize the day
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    This has been dead for like THREE WEEKS HOLY FUCK. I have left this to die for far too long. :'(

    Anyway, I asked a few people for their opinions on how this thread performed for the first 'session', and I got some mixed results. Some people thought there was too little to talk about - there wasn't that much to discuss after someone pointed out the major changes that one of the drops would have made. There's only so much you can say about Rhydon / Scolipede / Whimsicott / Hitmonchan or the absence of a few Pokemon (which actually seems to make less impact than you'd imagine!). Others said the topic just had too MUCH. While everyone does have several Pokemon to talk about, there was actually just so much to say that there's no actual DISCUSSION going on here. No one is talking with one another about stuff which is partly why this thread kind of died out once everyone said what they wanted to say.

    So I guess I'll try to take a different spin on this, rather than having a set topic with set questions like I did the first go-around. Instead, we'll have a more open-ended discussion where you guys can kind of theorymon about whatever the fuck you want or comment on the stuff that other people bring up, too. This time around, we'll be talking about alternate moves / abilities that fit into the flavor of a Pokemon, but significantly alter its effectiveness in the current metagame. I'm specifically mentioning the flavor aspect because I want this to maintain some kind of realism (don't give Ludicolo Shell Smash, for god's sake).

    Here are the ground rules that I want everyone to abide by when suggesting stuff to talk about:

    Okay so I figure I'll kick this off by suggesting two or three things to give you an example of what I'm looking for, then giving you guys a few ideas of others that might be worth talking about. When you're looking to respond to someone's prompt, think about some of the same questions I brought up to you guys in the first couple of posts... "what effect will this have on the metagame"? "will it significantly alter usage statistics or outclass something to the point it becomes a rare threat"? "what would rise up to beat this new threat?" "what kind of playstyle would this fit best on?" "will its other sets become better with the addition of the new ability / move?" etc, you know the drill.

    What if Torterra got Shell Smash? It's justifiable since Torterra actually has a shell to be smashed, though it does have a few other things on it like trees and bushes... anyway, Shell Smash Torterra simplifies a lot of its major problems. As a sweeper, Torterra has always lacked either power or Speed, and while it does have two separate moves for each of these (Rock Polish + Swords Dance) it never has the opportunity to use both and its coverage also flounders as a result of carrying both moves. Shell Smash actually lets Torterra become an incredibly threatening sweeper in a single turn, and between Wood Hammer / Earthquake / Stone Edge it basically has neutral coverage on the entire tier and hits like a fucking tank. It also sits just above Gorebyss, meaning that your standard Choice Scarf Rotom-A cannot catch a +2 Torterra. It's still reliably handled in NU but you'd figure that the presence of SS Torterra would popularize other bulky Grass-types (especially the likes of Tangela) and even just other Torterra.

    What if Golurk got Trick? Trick is generally found on Psychic- and Ghost-types that seem devious or intelligent enough to mess around with items. Golurk isn't particularly devious but it does have the proper typing which is probably more important than strictly the flavor (a few other things like Kecleon, Furret, and Volbeat get it without matching the flavor that much either). While Golurk doesn't necessarily want to give up coverage for it, Trick is suddenly a very good move in combination with Choice Band. It also gives Golurk an actual means to handle common switch-ins like Alomomola, which it really cannot do right now. One of the more interesting applications of Trick is in conjunction with Klutz - now you can actually hide the item you're holding to some degree and flippantly cripple things like Amoonguss by giving them Choice items or things like Flame Orb.

    A few other "what ifs", just for you to think about: Hurricane Rotom? Megahorn Pinsir? Regigigas with recovery? Regenerator / Volt Switch Stunfisk? The famed Flare Blitz Flareon? Final Gambit Lickilicky? Shadow Force Drifblim? Feel free to post about the potential of any of these, or go ahead and think of your own!!

    Remember that good discussion here (and in other threads) could help put you on the way to your very own [​IMG] Community Contributor badge. Discuss away! :>
  25. Oiawesome

    Oiawesome

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    What if Flareon got Flare Blitz?
    Ah the possibiltys of this situation.Lets say A new event Flare Blitz flareon got realeased.How would the metagame shift to fit in this new possible threat?Well,with this new move Flareon would probaly break top 10 in usage because of its now increased versatility,A Choice Scarf Set would mainly be used to show off its raw power between Flare Blitz/Superpower/Return/Batton Pass* (*-Would be used like a Mini U turn especialy for scouting),As it has even more raw power than Emboar(Emby has 123,Flareon has 130)And can completely devistate teams ,while Emboar does still have STAB on Superpower and the awesome Wild Charge,Flareon does have more attack,bulk,same speed,and Baton Pass for momentum.And A guts set w/ toxic orb would be Amazing for its devistating power with Flare Blitz/Superpower/Facade/Batton Pass or Bite would be amazing but only as a suicide sweeper due to the omnipresent Recoil.Overall FB Flareon would be Amazing,but not broken it has its Flaws and Positive traits.
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