NEW THEORYMON SESSION THREAD HERE Theorymon Sessions RULES rules + initial thread (Move your mouse to reveal the content) rules + initial thread (open) rules + initial thread (close) Hey there. I've had the idea for this thread for a little while now, but practically every time I walk into #neverused there are discussions going on that I think would totally fit into this thread so I decided it needed to go up ASAP. Named after our very own venerable moderator Theorymon, this thread is primarily a thinking exercise, designed to help you understand how to think about and deal with new metagames and threats. None of the situations that will be discussed in this thread are guaranteed to happen, if they ever will at all. We're just going to talk about this kind of stuff just for the sake of it and to improve our discussion abilities, aight? Here's how it's gonna work. I'm going to come up with a reasonable change to the NU metagame, and you guys discuss the aftereffects of this change, how it will affect the meta, some interesting sets you might use to combat this new change, any plausible counters, anything that you can think of to talk about this new potential change. This change could be anything from new DW abilities being released to RU drop-downs - even changes to the moves or abilities that current Pokemon have could be discussed. I'll also provide several questions to work off of (though I expect you guys to come up with your own to ask the other posters, too!), so hopefully it should be easy to just jump in and start discussing. I'm gonna give you guys an example or two of what's good and what's bad, just for clarification purposes. --- Topic: DW Serperior is released While this poster does offer a few good points, it's an incredibly negative post and shows that they aren't trying to innovate or think about new ways to handle some incredibly dangerous threats. I'd like to emphasize that we should never ever try to ban something quickly, as soon as it is released; after all, it just says that we're not giving it a chance to prove that our metagame can adapt and handle it. Serperior might very well be broken when it is released, but that is not what this thread is for. Any posts that declare brokenness of any given mon will be deleted and/or edited, depending on the rest of the content. Keep that in mind, please! Can you see the immediate difference between those two posts? This second guy is at the very least attempting to be innovative, which is all that matters. He brings up a few often ignored points that people don't immediately think of (Sap Sippers) and also discusses the changes to the metagame in general and expands on his thoughts about it (Emboar's usage rising and his thoughts on why that would be). While this isn't an optimal post, it's still a good one and shows that the poster is trying to think out of the box. Remember, this is all just an attempt to get you to expand on how you think, so don't get too caught up in brokenness or the like. --- Just to reiterate myself: while I don't expect you to write up your dissertation on the effects of Qwilfish dropping to NU, I do expect nothing but quality discussion out of this thread. In fact, I rather you wouldn't write incredibly long posts, as it makes a lot of users skip over your posts and we miss out on a lot of potential discussion. If you've got a lot to say, then you might want to consider saying it through multiple posts while also allowing others to read through your thoughts and respond to them appropriately. I'm all for more conversation. =) If you have nothing important to say or at least inspire other posters to think about, it's not worth posting here, alright? Good! second bump rules (Move your mouse to reveal the content) second bump rules (open) second bump rules (close) OP updated November 28th. Anyway, I asked a few people for their opinions on how this thread performed for the first 'session', and I got some mixed results. Some people thought there was too little to talk about - there wasn't that much to discuss after someone pointed out the major changes that one of the drops would have made. There's only so much you can say about Rhydon / Scolipede / Whimsicott / Hitmonchan or the absence of a few Pokemon (which actually seems to make less impact than you'd imagine!). Others said the topic just had too MUCH. While everyone does have several Pokemon to talk about, there was actually just so much to say that there's no actual DISCUSSION going on here. No one is talking with one another about stuff which is partly why this thread kind of died out once everyone said what they wanted to say. So I guess I'll try to take a different spin on this, rather than having a set topic with set questions like I did the first go-around. Instead, we'll have a more open-ended discussion where you guys can kind of theorymon about whatever the fuck you want or comment on the stuff that other people bring up, too. This time around, we'll be talking about alternate moves / abilities that fit into the flavor of a Pokemon, but significantly alter its effectiveness in the current metagame. I'm specifically mentioning the flavor aspect because I want this to maintain some kind of realism (don't give Ludicolo Shell Smash, for god's sake). Here are the ground rules that I want everyone to abide by when suggesting stuff to talk about: Okay so I figure I'll kick this off by suggesting two or three things to give you an example of what I'm looking for, then giving you guys a few ideas of others that might be worth talking about. When you're looking to respond to someone's prompt, think about some of the same questions I brought up to you guys in the first couple of posts... "what effect will this have on the metagame"? "will it significantly alter usage statistics or outclass something to the point it becomes a rare threat"? "what would rise up to beat this new threat?" "what kind of playstyle would this fit best on?" "will its other sets become better with the addition of the new ability / move?" etc, you know the drill. What if Torterra got Shell Smash? It's justifiable since Torterra actually has a shell to be smashed, though it does have a few other things on it like trees and bushes... anyway, Shell Smash Torterra simplifies a lot of its major problems. As a sweeper, Torterra has always lacked either power or Speed, and while it does have two separate moves for each of these (Rock Polish + Swords Dance) it never has the opportunity to use both and its coverage also flounders as a result of carrying both moves. Shell Smash actually lets Torterra become an incredibly threatening sweeper in a single turn, and between Wood Hammer / Earthquake / Stone Edge it basically has neutral coverage on the entire tier and hits like a fucking tank. It also sits just above Gorebyss, meaning that your standard Choice Scarf Rotom-A cannot catch a +2 Torterra. It's still reliably handled in NU but you'd figure that the presence of SS Torterra would popularize other bulky Grass-types (especially the likes of Tangela) and even just other Torterra. What if Golurk got Trick? Trick is generally found on Psychic- and Ghost-types that seem devious or intelligent enough to mess around with items. Golurk isn't particularly devious but it does have the proper typing which is probably more important than strictly the flavor (a few other things like Kecleon, Furret, and Volbeat get it without matching the flavor that much either). While Golurk doesn't necessarily want to give up coverage for it, Trick is suddenly a very good move in combination with Choice Band. It also gives Golurk an actual means to handle common switch-ins like Alomomola, which it really cannot do right now. One of the more interesting applications of Trick is in conjunction with Klutz - now you can actually hide the item you're holding to some degree and flippantly cripple things like Amoonguss by giving them Choice items or things like Flame Orb. A few other "what ifs", just for you to think about: Hurricane Rotom? Megahorn Pinsir? Regigigas with recovery? Regenerator / Volt Switch Stunfisk? The famed Flare Blitz Flareon? Final Gambit Lickilicky? Shadow Force Drifblim? Feel free to post about the potential of any of these, or go ahead and think of your own!! Remember that good discussion here (and in other threads) could help put you on the way to your very own Community Contributor badge. Discuss away! :> Links to posted questions are listed below. Feel free to respond to any that intrigue you at any given time, no matter how old they are - maybe you'll spark a new discussion on someone else's idea that got skipped over before! --- Last updated May 3rd. What if Torterra got Shell Smash? What if Golurk got Trick? What if Flareon got Flare Blitz? What if Rotom-S got Hurricane? What if Pinsir got Megahorn? What if Gigalith and/or Marowak received Sand Rush as their Dream World Ability? What if Flareon got V-Create? What if Kangaskan got Bulk Up? What if Rampardos got Rock Head? What if Shelgon got Regenerator? What if Samurott got Lightningrod? What if Articuno got Ice Body? What if Drifblim got Roost? What if Zebstrika got Flare Blitz? What if Cnidali was in NU? (for reference, cnidali is a fakemon created in #neverused one day) What if Mantine got Roost? (2) What if Floatzel got Work Up? What if Metang got Recover? What if Floatzel got Swords Dance? What if Octillery got Shell Smash? What if Slaking got U-turn? What if Swellow got Close Combat? What if Sky Attack no longer needed a charge turn? What if Noctowl got access to a special Flying-type move with 90 BP that boosts SpDef one stage each time it is used? What if Rotom-S got Roost? What if Samurott got Nasty Plot? What if Sneasel got Technician from the Dream World? What if Scolipede got U-turn? What if Carracosta had Rock Head + Head Smash or just Head Smash, or just Rock Head? What if Klang got Rapid Spin? What if Rapidash got Sheer Force? What if Beartic got Ice Shard? What if Fake Out + ExtremeSpeed + Volt Tackle was legal on Pikachu, and Volt Tackle had no recoil? What if Sawk got U-turn? What if Sawk could use Eviolite? What if Metang got Shift Gear? What if Linoone got Scrappy? What if Swanna got Adaptability? What if Spikes + Sleep Powder was legal on Roselia? What if Butterfree got Baton Pass? What if Drifblim got Hurricane? What if Mantine got Volt Absorb or Serene Grace? What if Coil boosted Speed instead of Accuracy? What if Charizard got Tail Glow? What if Shadow Tag Lampent was released? What if Cacturne received Pursuit? What if Alomomola rose to RU? What if Floatzel received Sheer Force? What if Klang received Rapid Spin? What if Dunsparce had access to Eviolite and Wish? What if Sawk and Golurk had Mach Punch? What if Shiftry had Hustle? What if Tauros had Scrappy? What if Stunfisk learned Volt Switch? What if Ampharos received Sheer Force? What if Lapras received Shell Smash? What if Weezing received Sheer Force? What if Samurott had Swift Swim? What if Contrary had better distribution? (Altaria and Zebstrika?) What if Wigglytuff had Prankster? What if Combusken could use Baton Pass and Speed Boost? What if Ursaring got Swift Swim? What if Wartortle got Shell Smash? What if Pinsir had Megahorn? What if Gothorita had Baton Pass? What if Munchlax had Slack Off? What if Heatmor had Belly Drum? What if Torkoal got Morning Sun? (2) What if Gabite got Dragon Dance? What if Seismitoad got Toxic Spikes? What if Misdreavus got Recover or Moonlight? What if Luxray got Agility? What if Lumineon received Quiver Dance? What if Hidden Power didn't exist? What if Metang had Levitate? What if Stunfisk got Water Absorb? What if Dodrio got Hi Jump Kick or Jump Kick? What if Kecleon could utilize Eviolite? What if Golem learned Rapid Spin? What if Miltank learned Rapid Spin? What if Cinccino returned to NU? What if Golem and Marowak received Mold Breaker? What if Magmar got Flash Fire? What if Glaceon got Regenerator? What if Milk Drink worked in-battle like it does in-game? What if Golurk got Bulk Up? Thanks to Starships for compiling the initial list of these.