Metagame Tier Shift

Peef Rimgar

Other guys'll just feed ya lies! I'll take ya to MICKEY DS!
is a Pre-Contributor
#1
Approved by [The Immortal and Chloe. ]
Tier Shift

Tier Shift has been around for ages now as you all know, but last gen we hit a bit of a hiccup: nobody was terribly interested in it due to same-y qualities to the normal OU metagame. This gen, I've done something that does a pretty good job of fixing that:

Rules:

Mechanic: Pokemon get a +10 boost to each stat per tier below OU they are in. UU gets +10, RU +20, NU +30, and PU +40
Clauses: Standard OU Clauses
Bans: OU Banlist + Tangela
Unbans: None, and there (probably) won't be. No pdon, ScarfWynaut


Strategy:


Terrakion with +10 boosts is a direct improvement for the already viable powerhouse. 139 attack backed by 118 speed isn't something to scoff at.


Presumably Butterfree will be PU, bringing it to 100/85/90/130/120/110 stats. To boot, it has Tinted Lens, Sleep Powder, and Quiver Dance. SR weakness will still hold it back some but good lord this thing looks like a nightmare for stall.


The tapu's all keep their niches pretty well due to their exclusive abilities. Terrains are honestly extremely useful, perhaps moreso even in Tier Shift.


Q&A:

Q: What about BLs?
A: BLs are counted as the tier above them. So, BL gets no boosts, BL2 gets +10, etc. Logic is that why would they get boosts for the tier they can't be in?

Q: What happens when a stat goes over 255?
A: It caps at 255 base, since that's the highest possible stat.

Q: Isn't Shedinja broken?
A: Nah son, Shedinja is hardcoded to 1HP despite TS boosts.

Q: What do untiered NFE / LC pokemon get?
A: +40 as well, as they are still classed as PU

Q: How do megas work?
A: As soon as a pokemon holds it's megastone, it is the tier of the mega. For example: Audino without Audinite gets PU boosts, but as soon as it holds Audinite it is classed as UU

Q: Is there an easy way to see a pokemon's adjusted stats?
A: Why yes there is! Just use the command /ts (pokemon) and it will show you the new stats!

Resources:
 
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Peef Rimgar

Other guys'll just feed ya lies! I'll take ya to MICKEY DS!
is a Pre-Contributor
#2
Tier Shift (rough) Team Archive!
Given Tier Shift is still in its infancy, keep in mind RESULTS MAY VARY with these teams. If they don't perform as well as you'd wish they would, consider that encouragement to try and build! Also, if you'd like me to include or edit a team post on my wall.
Gogoat GrassSpam (Peef)


Surge Surfin with THE GOAT MARILL (Peef)


Busted Rain (Peef)


Smeargle Webs (Peef)


Marowak Webs (Chloe)

 
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Peef Rimgar

Other guys'll just feed ya lies! I'll take ya to MICKEY DS!
is a Pre-Contributor
#5
What does it give for LC mons?
Glad you asked as I really should've added that to Q&A, they get +40 as well unless otherwise tiered. Same for untiered NFEs!

DRAMPAS GRANDPA said:
Here's a question that should probably be in an FAQ section: if a pokemon has a mega in a different tier and holds its stone what boosts does it get? If standard boosts until mega, how does hp work?
I edited this in to the OP as well, the mega stone or lack thereof decides tiering.
 
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drampa's grandpa

formerly The Ruins of Alpha
#6
Yay finally!!!

I'm not sure what to bring up because we've talked so much about this in the om room, there are a lot of cool mons though.... I know!

Barbaracle @ Life Orb / White Herb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Razor Shell
- Shell Smash
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

Stats: 102/135/145/84/116/98

Barbaracle gets good bulk to set up with, good enough speed at +2, and 135 attack. Can it break things like Slowbro and Tangela? Probably not. But a nice cleaner all the same.

Edit: evs aren't optimal cuz I don't know speed tiers yet.

Here's a question that should probably be in an FAQ section: if a pokemon has a mega in a different tier and holds its stone what boosts does it get? If standard boosts until mega, how does hp work?
 
#7
I'm pretty tired and on mobile, but here's what I've got so far.

Wishiwashi already has the stats of legends. Add 40 to everything and now you're sending the Kraken packin' (heh).

Guzzlord is the definition of bulk.

Masquerain now has 140 Sp. Att and 120 speed, along with QD and amazing special and status moves.

I'll probably edit this with more stuff in the morning if I remember.
 
#8
Yay this meta is gr8

I've been testing mons out a lot recently, so here are some threats.

Rotom-Frost: 90/105/147/145/147/126
Good coverage, great bulk, nice speed tier (with Scarf)

Gumshoos: 128/150/100/95/100/85
Stakeout + Band + Frustration STAB = rip anything that switches in

Slaking: 190/200/140/135/105/140
Step 1: Band. Step 2: Giga Impact. Step 3: A little prediction. Step 4: Profit.

Meloetta: 130/107/107/158/158/120
I don't think there is much more to say about this. 158 Special Attack, boosted by Choice Specs. 130/107/158 bulk. gg ez.

Lurantis: 110/145/130/120/130/85
It's like a fat Serperior. With worse movepool. And Defog.

Malamar: 126/132/128/108/115/113
idk it sounds cool on paper

Zangoose: 113/155/100/100/100/130
Toxic Boost, good coverage, boosted Facade? Ouch.

Flareon: 105/170/100/135/150/105
Is this the reason why Sun teams don't exist?
252+ Atk Flash Fire Choice Band Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal in Sun: 228-268 (53.9 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rain
Politoed: 130/115/115/130/140/110
Kingler: 95/170/155/90/90/115
Kabutops: 100/155/145/105/110/120
Omastar: 100/90/155/145/100/85
Vikavolt: 107/100/120/175/105/73
Manectric: 110/115/100/145/100/145

Sand
Hippopotas: 108/112/118/78/82/72
Dugtrio-Alola: 75/140/100/90/110/150
Lycanroc: 115/155/105/95/105/152
Sandslash: 115/140/150/85/95/105
Rhydon: 135/160/150/75/75/70
Regirock: 120/140/240/90/140/90
252+ SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Regirock in Sand: 208-246 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
and if it runs a Vest:
252+ SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Regirock in Sand: 140-165 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 81.3% chance to 3HKO

Sun
Torkoal: 90/105/160/105/90/40
Ninetales: 113/116/115/121/140/140
Exeggutor: 135/135/125/165/115/95
Victreebel: 120/145/105/140/110/110 (jesus, just imagine Z-Growth)
Charizard: 118/124/118/149/125/140
Typhlosion: 118/124/118/149/125/140 (huh i just noticed that Charizard and Typhlosion have the same stats)

Hail (lol)
Vanilluxe: 111/135/125/150/135/119
Abomasnow: 130/132/115/132/125/100
Aurorus: 163/117/112/139/132/98
Beartic: 135/170/120/110/120/90
Sandslash-Alola: 115/140/160/65/105/105

Hey Look It's Gen 5 Weather Wars All Over Again

Dusclops: 80/110/170/100/170/65
Just about the best wall you could ever get.
252+ Atk Choice Band Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 135-160 (37 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(note that this has Will-o-Wisp and Rest, too)

Silvally: 135/135/135/135/135/135
Hey Look It's Arceus But With Garbage Movepool (Parting Shot is pretty good, though)

Slowbro: 125/105/140/130/110/60
Vaporeon: 170/105/100/150/135/105
Quagsire: 135/125/125/105/105/75
How did these drop so much in usage

Gallade: 108/165/105/105/155/120
Okay, this might be a strange pick. But look at its movepool. Bulk Up, Will-o-Wisp, Wish, Drain Punch, Encore, Taunt, Substitute! Great special bulk! The typing isn't even that bad either!

Tangela: 105/95/155/140/80/100
Of course, this vine monster had to be here.
252+ Atk Choice Band Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 290-344 (70 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is just about the strongest physical STAB you can get unboosted, and it's super effective. And still doesn't kill it.

Spritomb: 80/122/138/122/138/65
Sableye: 90/115/115/105/105/90
Basically the hard counters to Meloetta. Spiritomb can do some kind of RestTalk shenanigans while Sableye pranks with Will-o-Wisp, Knock Off, and be annoying in general.

Palossand: 125/115/150/140/115/75
Interesting typing, Shore Up is cool, and Water Compaction is cooler. Could work on a Sand team.

Jellicent: 130/90/100/115/135/90
A nice tank on Sand teams, and a nice counter on rain teams. Also works on balance and stall teams. Works pretty much on any team.
 
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Laxpras

Young Metro Trusts Me
is a Pre-Contributor
#9

130/107/107/158/158/120
Meloetta @ Choice Specs
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Trick

Bulky af, strong af, fast. Early candidate to be banned imo.


88/90/112/70/152/62
Araquanid @ Waterium Z
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Leech Life
- Toxic
- Infestation

Araquanid becomes an intense wallbreaker with 90base attack Water Bubble and access to infestation/Toxic to take down would be walls.


Also there is a 110% chance rain will be broken again
 
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#10
type null gets 135/135/135 bulk with eviolite

uhhhhhhhhh

Type: Null @ Eviolite
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Return
- Crunch

wishiwashi is 85/180/170/180/175/70 for stats which looks fun
since so many hail mons such as aurorus, abomasnow, beartic and alolan sandslash in PU they might be cool now
politoed gets +40 in every stat alongside drizzle, eww
 
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#11

haha

god (Tangela) @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 6 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain

- 252+ Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Hydro Vortex (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela in Rain: 152-180 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela in Rain: 113-133 (27.2 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela: 178-210 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
- +2 252 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela in Rain: 175-207 (42.2 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
- +2 252+ Atk Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela in Rain: 106-126 (25.6 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
- +2 252+ SpA Omastar Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela in Rain: 298-351 (71.9 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As a few of us may know, not even STAB super-effective hits from the Pokemon Legends themselves aren't enough to KO god:

- 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 328-385 (79.2 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 294-348 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela in Harsh Sunshine: 236-282 (57 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-White Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela: 300-354 (72.4 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela: 392-464 (94.6 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

(But yeah, hopefully Eviolite is being thought about as a potential suspect)
 

Laxpras

Young Metro Trusts Me
is a Pre-Contributor
#12
ok
252 SpA Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela: 194-230 (46.8 - 55.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela: 252-299 (60.8 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and im not sure you get how the whole toxic/infestation thing works
 
#13
ok
252 SpA Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela: 194-230 (46.8 - 55.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela: 252-299 (60.8 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and im not sure you get how the whole toxic/infestation thing works
You don't even beat it one on one.. I could recreate this with more ideal conditions for Araquanid (Rain up, a bit of chip damage maybe) but even then it's so much slower so Sleep Powder will always tip the odds in Tangela's favor
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7tiershift-113890
 
#16
the heck does an araquanid replay have to do with tornadus calcs
I was responding to him saying I didn't take into consideration Toxic and Infestation in my earlier post. I concede that obviously Tornadus can smash Tangela and that Araquanid potentially can also, but the latter is by no means guaranteed (Sleep rolls, crits, predictions required on Araq's side all can play a part in deciding the outcome, but its certainly in Araquanid's favor considering you status / trap it upon switching in).
 
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Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
#17
All the good ladders are gone

I believe Stall will be quite viable with this new change in stat distribution, especially when considering that a lot of the lower tier mons have potential to fill up the slots in a standard OU build. Lets look into it:

UU (+10):


Both Alomomola and Amoongus serve as great Regenerator pivots that can provide useful momentum and also provide support via Wish and Spore respectably. Tentacreul can act as another means of hazard removal while also being able to setup its own Toxic Spikes (although Toxapex will probably outclass it nontheless). Blissey is another cool option that I feel can work although it still gets outclassed by Chansey for the most part. The +10 boost in every stat for these mons will help propel their viability imo and can definitely allow them to find a place on certain builds they might have not otherwise be able to work on.

RU (+20):


In RU we have access to great hazard setters in Chestnaught, Diancie, Registeel and maybe even Gligar (although it probably would much rather be using Defog), which can all act as solid defensive pivots especially when considering their new shockingly high stats. Umbreon can provide another useful teammate that can annoy special attackers while passing off huge Wishes off its new 115 HP stat, while also acting as a cleric with Heal Bell. While Mantine already finds itself in a great spot in current OU, and in TS only hets even better with its improved 90 Defense. Gligar is the main focus tho and something that I believe will be especially prevalent due to its new 85 / 125 / 85 bulk before factoring in Eviolite. Definitely something to watch out for.

NU (+30):


NU has some cool options of hazard removal / re-direction when considering Golbat, Cyrogonal, and Xatu. Golbat is another example of an already bulky mon that gets even more thick with Eviolite, with a new and improved 105 / 100 / 105 defensive spread before Eviolite. Aromatisse also can be placed as a nice cleric that can pass big wishes off while also possessing a great defensive typing. I can also see Steelix be used as a defensive wall and Rocks setter especially with a better 95 Special Defense stat.

PU and below (+40):


I believe these mons are whats gonna make stall truly shine this gen. With the +40 stats, mons which are already good on OU Stall builds (ie: Quagsire and Diglett (basically Dugtrio 2.0) just get even better. We also receive another hazard removal / cleric option in Togetic (95 / 125 / 145 bulk pre Eviolite) and Vullaby (which can help check probable threats like Buterfree and Meloetta. Finally we have probably the most broken defensive threat in TS that others already touched upon in Tangela, with a defensive spread of 105 / 155 / 80 pre-Eviolite, on top of possessing a good defensive typing and Regenerator.

Here is a sample team I theorycrafted:


Replay of it in action vs the esteemed leader himself (replaced Aromatisee with Chans tho): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7tiershift-107235

Basically yeh I can see Stall being an issue as long as Eviolite is here. And yeh ban Damp Rock lol.
 

Peef Rimgar

Other guys'll just feed ya lies! I'll take ya to MICKEY DS!
is a Pre-Contributor
#19
All the good ladders are gone

I believe Stall will be quite viable with this new change in stat distribution, especially when considering that a lot of the lower tier mons have potential to fill up the slots in a standard OU build. Lets look into it:

UU (+10):


Both Alomomola and Amoongus serve as great Regenerator pivots that can provide useful momentum and also provide support via Wish and Spore respectably. Tentacreul can act as another means of hazard removal while also being able to setup its own Toxic Spikes (although Toxapex will probably outclass it nontheless). Blissey is another cool option that I feel can work although it still gets outclassed by Chansey for the most part. The +10 boost in every stat for these mons will help propel their viability imo and can definitely allow them to find a place on certain builds they might have not otherwise be able to work on.

RU (+20):


In RU we have access to great hazard setters in Chestnaught, Diancie, Registeel and maybe even Gligar (although it probably would much rather be using Defog), which can all act as solid defensive pivots especially when considering their new shockingly high stats. Umbreon can provide another useful teammate that can annoy special attackers while passing off huge Wishes off its new 115 HP stat, while also acting as a cleric with Heal Bell. While Mantine already finds itself in a great spot in current OU, and in TS only hets even better with its improved 90 Defense. Gligar is the main focus tho and something that I believe will be especially prevalent due to its new 85 / 125 / 85 bulk before factoring in Eviolite. Definitely something to watch out for.

NU (+30):


NU has some cool options of hazard removal / re-direction when considering Golbat, Cyrogonal, and Xatu. Golbat is another example of an already bulky mon that gets even more thick with Eviolite, with a new and improved 105 / 100 / 105 defensive spread before Eviolite. Aromatisse also can be placed as a nice cleric that can pass big wishes off while also possessing a great defensive typing. I can also see Steelix be used as a defensive wall and Rocks setter especially with a better 95 Special Defense stat.

PU and below (+40):


I believe these mons are whats gonna make stall truly shine this gen. With the +40 stats, mons which are already good on OU Stall builds (ie: Quagsire and Diglett (basically Dugtrio 2.0) just get even better. We also receive another hazard removal / cleric option in Togetic (95 / 125 / 145 bulk pre Eviolite) and Vullaby (which can help check probable threats like Buterfree and Meloetta. Finally we have probably the most broken defensive threat in TS that others already touched upon in Tangela, with a defensive spread of 105 / 155 / 80 pre-Eviolite, on top of possessing a good defensive typing and Regenerator.

Here is a sample team I theorycrafted:


Replay of it in action vs the esteemed leader himself (replaced Aromatisee with Chans tho): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7tiershift-107235

Basically yeh I can see Stall being an issue as long as Eviolite is here. And yeh ban Damp Rock lol.
This is a quite solid guideline to stall, but something to add would be the sheer versatility of stall in TS. Esteemed stallman Adrian Marin took dumps on me with mons the like of:
  • AV Ludicolo
  • Eviolite RestTalk Trapinch
  • WishPass Flareon
  • Defog Archeops
  • Monferno
He's also got a Komala team in the back I'm pretty scared of :x. Point being here that there are niche threats for stall to beat all of offense's niche threats, but at the end of the day t'll come down to matchup and how well played the opponents stallbreakers are.

With regards to Eviolite, it is certainly on my radar for a suspect / ban BUT there are things I fear in doing so, mainly the lacking defensive backbone then to check nuts threats like Meloetta, Rampardos, etc. I'm certainly here to listen to concerns and such about bans so be free to plea your case!
 
#20

[115/110/110/138/110/133]

Here's your supplemental Quiver Dance counter, and they are here and ready to kick some ass. Sensu and Baile are probably the best two offensive-wise, but Pom Pom has a pretty good defensive typing with Electric/Flying (think basically a better Zapdos here.) Revelation Dance is a cool move that provides all of them with a reliable STAB, and with a now usable Attack stat, running Acrobatics without an item is a possible gimmick for annoying Swords Dance sweepers who are slower than it, such as Gallade. Speaking of which...




[108/165/105/105/155/120]

Ya boy from PU is back, and while he's still down there he has one of the nicest stat spreads possible. With stats that beat Megallade by a good mile and a half, a possible mixed offense set possible with a very reasonable Special Attack combined with a movepool that stems from originally only evolving into Gardevoir, and a wide movepool consisting of both Calm Mind and Swords Dance for either side setup, he's pretty damn versatile. His Speed tier is very good, tying with another Psychic-type threat, Meloetta, and has incredibly good special bulk of 108/155. His Physical bulk is merely average, if not slightly below so due to Tier Shift's huge power flow, but Gallade doesn't really care. He hits everything hard with singular hits, then switches out once its job is done. Hell, if you want to be fun, Wishpassing is possible for longevity for your team, or you can run a Wish Bulk Up set with Drain Punch for a wincon.




[105/130/160/125/110/100]

He's fat, he's smelly, and you all love him even if you claim you don't. Weezing's great because it can hit hard, has a good speed tier (like everything else in this meta lmao) for a wall, and can tank just about any Physical hit that comes swinging at it.

252+ Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 122-146 (29.4 - 35.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 354-416 (85.5 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 211-250 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Ye.



*passes pringles*
 

Peef Rimgar

Other guys'll just feed ya lies! I'll take ya to MICKEY DS!
is a Pre-Contributor
#21
Why can't BL pokemon get half of the boost of its tier (BL +5, BL2 +15, etc...)?
This is an idea that was had, but it was sorta decided that that makes the concept a bit too complex. This is more of a decision for The Immortal tho so if he wants to give better reasoning or overturn that he could do so better than I
 
#23
Regigigas:
150/200/150/120/150/140

Please avert your eyes from that attack stat, and instead feast on this:

Regigigas @ Choice Specs
Ability: Slow Start
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Thunderbolt/Thunder
- Focus Blast
- Icy Wind

150/150/150 bulk is probably the best mixed bulk in the game, and when combined with a "decent" special attack stat of 120 turns Regigigas into a great bulky attacker. This set will also probably be a pretty good lure early on because that 200 attack stat lol

252+ SpA Choice Specs Regigigas Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 150-178 (36.2 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Regigigas Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 144-170 (34 - 40.1%) -- 35.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Not sure if this would be the standard spread, but it counters butterfree)

To show off his bulk:
252+ Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Hydro Vortex (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regigigas: 314-372 (62.3 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In all honesty Regi will probably not run specs, it'll just try to run the bulky attacker stall-out-slow-start set it always has, but it's fun to look at either way.

Actually the longer I look at the calcs the more I'm convinced that eviolite is borked
 
#24
There's been a lot of talk about Tangela being OP.

It usually runs a set like this:

Tangela @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Giga Drain
- Leech Seed
- Knock Off
- Synthesis / Toxic / Sleep Powder

I'm not saying that Tangela isn't overpowered, I'm just compiling some viable checks to it.

- Grass types (immune to Sleep Powder and Leech Seed and resists Giga Drain):
Virizion (121/120/102/120/159/138): Great bulk, and also has Justified.
Victreebel (120/145/105/140/110/110): Though only viable on sun teams, Victreebel hits with a massive +3 Sludge Bomb after Z-Growth with sun up:
+3 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela: 616-725 (148.7 - 175.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Even by itself it can put a big dent in it:
252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela: 244-291 (58.9 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

- Steel types (resists Giga Drain and immune to Toxic)
Ferroseed: 84/90/131/64/126/50: This is even better of a check since it is Grass type as well and therefore is immune to Spore and Leech Seed.

- Magic Bounce (bounces back Toxic, Sleep Powder, and Leech Seed)
Sableye-Mega: Although it doesn't get any stat boosts, it still is a good wall, as well as countering Meloetta.
Absol-Mega (75/160/70/125/70/125): I'm not sure about it. Although it resists Knock Off as well as bouncing back status, it doesn't seem to do much else.
Espeon (85/85/80/150/115/130) and Xatu (95/105/100/125/100/125): They don't require mega evolving, but are weak to Knock Off.

- Magic Guard (not affected by Toxic or Leech Seed)
Clefairy (110/85/88/100/105/73): Resistant to Knock Off, and also has many supporting moves like Encore and Heal Bell.
Kadabra (80/75/70/160/110/145): Good to switch into Tangela, not so much to stay in.

- Taunt users (prevents the usage of Toxic, Sleep Powder, and Leech Seed)
Gallade (108/165/105/105/155/120): Also has Justified, Knock Off, and Bulk Up.
Sableye-Mega
Persian-Alola (105/100/100/115/105/165): Also has Fur Coat and Parting Shot.
Weezing (105/130/160/125/110/100)
Virizion (121/120/102/120/159/138)
Whimsicott (90/97/115/107/105/146)

- Removing Eviolite (reduces Tangela's mixed bulk):
a) Knock Off (Gallade, Sableye-Mega, Shuckle, Kabutops, Whimsicott, Hariyama, Kingler, Marowak, Zangoose, etc.)
b) Magician Embargo Pickpocket Magic Room Switcheroo or Trick (Archeops, Barbaracle, Whimsicott, Malamar, Meloetta, Gallade, Slowbro, Rotom, etc.)

- Hard-hitting super-effective moves
a) Physical:
Flareon (252+ Atk Choice Band Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 294-348 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
Crabominable (252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Crabominable Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 362-428 (87.4 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Beartic (252+ Atk Choice Band Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 254-302 (61.3 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
Emboar (252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 398-470 (96.1 - 113.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
b) Special:
Vikavolt (252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela: 236-278 (57 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
Beheeyem (252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela: 234-276 (56.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
 
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#25
With regards to Eviolite, it is certainly on my radar for a suspect / ban BUT there are things I fear in doing so, mainly the lacking defensive backbone then to check nuts threats like Meloetta, Rampardos, etc. I'm certainly here to listen to concerns and such about bans so be free to plea your case!
This goes against the banning philosphy, i mean we dont keep broken things to check broken things, if eviolite were to be banned and meloetta/ramp turned out to be broken we ban meloetta and ramp too

Nothing will be able to beat stall unless u dedicate a few of your slots to beat stall, and then its not even guaranteed since you can get trapped by trapinch or diglett

new players will get sick of this metagame quick if all they see is fat togetics and tangelas walling their entire team, even taunt stall breakers cant do crap to their magic bouncers (that + every mon is hitting much harder here, even walls like tangela/vaporeon have like 140 spa)

I mean just look at the calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela: 142-168 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Thats coming off a 158 spa and specs, and it does like 34? Wow

0 Atk Groudon-Primal Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Eviolite Tangela in Harsh Sunshine: 168-200 (40.5 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Stab fire punch in the sun from a defensive primal-groudon.... wow

Heres example of non eviolite mon who can wall meloetta, will add more if i find later (like maybe sableye, corsola, spiritomb, doublade)

252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 204 HP / 56 SpD Vaporeon: 201-237 (39.2 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Thats hitting a mon with 160 hp and 125 spdef, yea meloetta is gonna be hard to wall without a resist (not impossible, just very hard) plus its gonna be difficult to revenge since it has great bulk too


Eviolite is centralizing in the sense that you absolutely need super powerful breakers just to get through the mons.

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 115-136 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 7.3% chance to 3HKO

Thats coming off a base 125 attack with band, is this the physical version of chansey?. And you just get trapped by diglett too so whats the point


Even very powerful stallbreakers need many boosts to get past them

+2 252+ SpA Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Eviolite Togetic: 160-189 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I mean what is this????? Thats coming off a modest base 170 spa at +2, and togetic still eats three?

When a mon can wall mega rayquaza thats when u know its pretty busted

252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 156-185 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Thats only calcs for togetic too, thats not even mentioning the support it gets from its fellow pu eviolite teammates, please BAN eviolite


Edit: fixed some of the togetic calcs, and corrected a few mistakes
 
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