Metagame Tier Shift

Making Tier Shift ubers based was discussed before it was submitted this gen. Overall the consensus was that the power difference would still be too great between Uber pokemon and lower pokemon and besides what's the benefit from including ubers?
I figured that would be the case, but I would still be down. If anything we could ban some Ubers? Some Ubers will definitely fit in though. We could get some epic Type: Null/Slivally vs Arceus battles

Also lost heros, Ubers would add more variety to the Tier Shift scene. Regardless I don't think the 'power difference' between Ubers and the others should even matter much. Taking some Ubers down with maybe a PU mon sounds very rewarding lol
 
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G-Luke

We Eat Losers
is a Pre-Contributor
I figured that would be the case, but I would still be down. If anything we could ban some Ubers? Some Ubers will definitely fit in though. We could get some epic Type: Null/Slivally vs Arceus battles

Also lost heros, Ubers would add more variety to the Tier Shift scene. Regardless I don't think the 'power difference' between Ubers and the others should even matter much. Taking some Ubers down with maybe a PU mon sounds very rewarding lol
Thats not the point. This actually existed as Extreme Tier Shift, which was not very successful due to those very reasons.
 
Hey everyone, what are your thoughts on trying out a new formula for Tier Shift? I thought the recent TS meta was refreshing fun but it definitely got stagnant. PU and stall were ultimately the main play styles, especially for those seriously laddering a really fun meta. My reason for trying out a new formula is because I believe there's a lot of potential in this meta that hasn't been tapped into yet. I also think this formula would actually allow, most if not all, Ubers to come back for another season without being too powerful like they were during the Extreme TS run two years ago. I'd dislike for TS to run and play almost exactly the same again.
Here's what I was thinking; keep the stat boosts the way they are but, exclude the HP and Speed stat. That means instead of Silvally receiving +40 to every stat (using the current formula), it would only receive +40 to both its attacks and defenses. So Attack, Defense, SpA, and SpD will all become 145 while HP and Speed remains at 95.

Here are my reasons on each stat and their influence:

HP: Boosted HP in combination with boosted defenses made breaking stall and some sweepers hopefully at times. Mostly the former. Anyhow, that is why I think Tangela, and many other stall based mons, were so potent in the meta. Now I don't have a problem with stall as I enjoy building stall breaking, and set up teams. The problem is actually how many mons became nonviable because these defensive mons were so unbreakable. A lot of players wanted to ban eviolite very badly
Comparison of Formulas

Regular Pyukumuku
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 165-195 (52.5 - 62.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Current TS (+50 HP & Def)
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 129-153 (31.1 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

New TS (+50 Def)
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 129-153 (41 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Under the current TS formula, Pyukumuku is quite bulky. With reliable clerics to relieve status and take hits, stall would become too powerful. However under the new TS, I think stall will still be very effective with good team builds. In this scenario, Pyukumuku has a good chance of avoiding a three hit OK barring critical hits. Though a crit can be game changing, Precipice Blades, being Groudon's one of top offensive moves, isn't that all dependable with the chance of it missing being higher than crits itself. 15% vs 12.5%.

Other mons like eviolite Dusclops defenses goes pass the 255 cap I believe. I think varying stall builds will be very welcomed.

Speed: Being a crucial component of this turn based game, this stat increases gave the lower tier mons all the edge making many upper tiers mons, again, almost non-existent. What was the point of using Azumarill in TS when Marill completely overshadowed it? It just makes things odd and invites in more broken elements; not many scarf mons would outspeed a current TS +2 Crustle. Keeping the natural Speed not only makes it easier to do the math, but it's more in-line with the regular metagames anyways.​

Because of these two stats, in conjunction with the other stat boosts, there were absolutely no good competitive reason to use upper tier mons because of those stat differences. Ultimately, the generous stat boosts striped most upper tier level mons of everything.

In theory, TS was made to give lower tiers an edge but not complete advantage. Could be a reason the original formula only started with +5.

Though after the recent TS run, I've come to believe that this meta only truly rewards PU and a few NFE mons while everything above either have some niches and roles, or just there as an nonviable choice.

Conclusion
It might be hard for some people to see this potential in TS because even the original tier shift formula boosted both HP and Speed stats. But think about it, using the natural HP and Speed stats does make it run much more similarly with the official metagames. But most importantly, I think this revised formula would encourage more variety creativity in team building because the lower tiers wouldn't be completely overpowering, though they will still have the edge. Remember Tangela? Perhaps it won't be as terrorizing without the HP boost. What about bulky Shell Smashers like Crustle? Using their natural speed ensures they won't just straight up outspeed almost all scarf users after +2 and proceed to sweep. We'll still have new monstrous lower tier mons, but without the extra generous HP and Speed stat boosts.
To sum it up, using this new formula, in theory, would ensure that most higher tier mons will continue to keep their main niches and roles, while lower tier mons aren't completely broken. This should allow less restrictions on teams and more variety. This meta, in theory, would really be one big fun tier which I'm sure we all want after playing in certain tiers with certain mons and sets for so long.
Outside TS, Type: Null is naturally no match. In the current TS, it would overpower Arceus. This new TS however, aims for equality between the two. Apologies for the cringe

Art by Tapwing

And that Extreme Tier Shift meta G-Luke brought up, is two years old and truly outdated. I really think bringing Ubers back will keep this meta even much more interesting. What are your thoughts?​

Oh and Peef Rimgar, thanks for successfully running that recent TS. It definitely got me hooked, and only reason why I'm even writing this. It'd be super cool if I could get your thoughts too

 
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Increasing the buff to lower tier mons is maybe the worst possible route we could take in order to fight stagnation at this point. Eviolite is already incredibly overwhelming and buffing those mons even further isn't a good idea IMO. You might think 'well, offensive mons are getting buffed as well so it should even out' but due to the nature of eviolite, any buffs there are magnified to a point where offensive mons will, and already do, struggle to catch-up.

Allowing ubers might seem like a fun idea but having played Extreme Tier Shift I can tell you it isn't. The argument that it would be fun to take down Arceus with Type: Null isn't a great starting point for a couple reasons. First off, this is subjective from player to player, and getting a chuckle from beating Arceus is going to lose it's charm when you realize that there are far more threatening things to consider, after playing for a while and being absorbed in the meta, you're going to forget that Arceus was even something to be afraid of in the first place.

The thing with ubers though is that they often aren't uber based on stat distribution alone, Sylvally and Type: Null may become absurdly powerful with a +50 boost, but they lack priority, recovery, utility or even good boosting options. Ninetales, the only PU drought user, still has a lower BST than P-Don and worse typing offensively and defensively. The only non-uber Sacred Fire user in the game, Entei, still doesn't catch-up to Ho-oh stat wise, has no recovery options, and worse abilities. Dragonite, even if OU's were to get boosted by +10, lacks the speed and defensive stat spread that makes Lugia such an effective multiscale user.

Ubers are uber because their stats are tailored to be overwhelming, they're given abilities and signatures moves that are calculated to give them an edge over other mons. It's the reason why mega-evolutions gain huge increases to certain stats and, situationally, debuffs to other stats. Specialization is more important than overall numbers and Ubers are still going to have most PU pokemon beat in that regard. Sure Dragonite's Attack stat towers over Lugia's, but does a phazing multiscale user need it?

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On the topic of specialization, and if we were to consider something as drastic as changing the formula of Tier Shift, I'd suggest something like this

Pokemon in UU and BL2 get a +20 increase to their 2 highest stats (if 2 stats are equally as high, both stats get buffed)

Nidoking: 81/122/77/105/75/105Weavile: 70/140/65/45/85/145
Infernape: 76/124/71/124/71/128


Pokemon in RU and BL3 get +20 to their 3 highest stats (if 2 stats are equally as high, both stats get buffed)

Snorlax: 180/130/85/85/130/30
Rotom-Heat: 50/65/127/125/127/86
Swellow: 60/105/60/95/50/145


Pokemon in NU and BL4 get +30 to their 3 highest stats (if 2 stats are equally as high, both stats get buffed)

Slowbro: 120/75/140/130/80/30
Hitmonlee: 50/150/53/35/140/117
Golbat: 105/110/70/65/105/120


Pokemon in PU and NFE get +30 to their 4 highest stats (if 2 stats are equally as high, both stats get buffed)

Marowak: 90/110/140/80/110/45
Electivire: 105/153/67/125/115/125
Komala: 95/145/95/105/125/95


There are a couple issues with this, such as pokemon like Snorlax who, due to mechanics, get boosted much more than necessary, but I think it's worth considering and hashing out. One of the issues I've had with tier shift is that offense as a playstyle is hurt tremendously, between eviolite and all mons getting a boost not just to their defensive stats, but their HP as well, the defensive buffs end up outweighing everything, and stall becomes a nightmare.

With this formula, stat spreads are put on a much more even playing field, allowing offensive mons to perform their job better without increasing the meta's overall bulk to the same degree that we currently have. I'm worried that certain mons in PU will be overwhelming, but even if something like this were to be implemented, this formula doesn't necessarily need to be the final one.
 
Increasing the buff... need it?

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On the topic of specialization, and if we were to consider something as drastic as changing the formula of Tier Shift, I'd suggest something like this

Pokemon in UU and BL2 get a +20 increase to their 2 highest stats (if 2 stats are equally as high, both stats get buffed)

Nidoking: 81/122/77/105/75/105Weavile: 70/140/65/45/85/145
Infernape: 76/124/71/124/71/128


Pokemon in RU and BL3 get +20 to their 3 highest stats (if 2 stats are equally as high, both stats get buffed)

Snorlax: 180/130/85/85/130/30
Rotom-Heat: 50/65/127/125/127/86
Swellow: 60/105/60/95/50/145


Pokemon in NU and BL4 get +30 to their 3 highest stats (if 2 stats are equally as high, both stats get buffed)

Slowbro: 120/75/140/130/80/30
Hitmonlee: 50/150/53/35/140/117
Golbat: 105/110/70/65/105/120


Pokemon in PU and NFE get +30 to their 4 highest stats (if 2 stats are equally as high, both stats get buffed)

Marowak: 90/110/140/80/110/45
Electivire: 105/153/67/125/115/125
Komala: 95/145/95/105/125/95
Thanks for your thoughts Worm, but I think you're missing some points. By skipping out on the HP and Speed increases, lower tier mons aren't impossible to stop, though they're still tough. Most eviolite users have low HP and Speed stats too so they can't afford to set up much. Compared to the current TS, the one I proposed would be a nerf. But then again there were many broken elements so would it be a fix or nerf? Lol

I'm surprised by everyone's reaction with the Uber's tier. I don't think they're unstoppable because most are average speed, and some are frailer. Because there are much more pokemon now, and soon actually, I want say the majority of the Ubers Tier will not be a problem. It's all about maintaining a wide creative variety in team building and battling. But if a ban must be made then it will be made.

Why are the formulas you posted sophisticated btw if you don't mind me asking lol

Remember everyone the extreme tier boosts went up to only +40 and there were less mons. In the new TS, boosts would go up to +50 and because there will be so much more checks and counters now, really don't think Ubers would be a huge problem now. Also realistically allowing every tier into the metagame will invite even more players to play, like those people exclusive to a specific metagame or two.

And the uber mons are awesome lol
 
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I would like to see Eviolite banned regardless of what ends up happening to TS, as I don't think it's prevalence is in keeping with the spirit of the meta, and many of those mons have other meta's where they're fully capable of shining.

Also, I don't think it'd be too difficult to code, I don't know javascript personally but I imagine you'd just need a string of code to get the pokemon's tiering variable, which would then trigger one of four different strings of code depending on which tier the mon is in.

I know there are functions to find the largest/second largest/etc. number in a series so all you'd need to do is have that function in the code and work it into a formula that defines those as X or Y or whatever and then replaces them with X+20 for example.

Ubers may have counters but, on a personal level, they also kind of defeat the reason of why I would want to play TS in the first place. I want to figure out which PU mon best counters Gliscor, or Snorlax, I don't want to have to figure out which PU mon is most effective at dealing with Primal-Groudon, because that's how it ends up being in nearly every Ubers based meta I've played. And if people are consistently running pokemon who aren't effected by the OM, it feels to me as if the OM has failed.

Also, removing HP and Speed is sort of redundant, as the boosts literally cancel eachother out with pokemon that belong to the same tier, and now simply aren't that strong with respect to OU and UU pokemon.

Butterfree becomes powerful and has decent 60/90/120 bulk, but those stats are going to be uninvested, and it's offensive stats at 85/130/70, leave a lot to be desired, outclassed by Volcarona even as a QD user.

It takes a lot more bulk than that to make up for an offensive pokemon being slow, and all the offense in the world isn't going to save a defensive pokemon who has low HP. That's how you get Dusknoir, who's PU for a reason.
 
Thats not the point. This actually existed as Extreme Tier Shift, which was not very successful due to those very reasons.
I'm just stating facts. Actually, Extreme Tier Shift was actually successful at the time. Proof? It had over 50k plays last year, which was among top 5 of the most played OMotMs in gen 6 and many ppl argue it was a diverse meta to play.
 
If anything maybe Ubers' stats should be decreased by 10-20 points in their highest stats. Mons with really high bst or versatility could overcome this problem and still be a healthy addition into the meta, though obviously mons like arceus are going to get nerfed harder than other Ubers.
 
I'm just stating facts. Actually, Extreme Tier Shift was actually successful at the time. Proof? It had over 50k plays last year, which was among top 5 of the most played OMotMs in gen 6 and many ppl argue it was a diverse meta to play.
Thanks for that statistic Chopin Alkaninoff. Diversity in pokemon is major reason why it has good replayability, and why the franchise is still popular. That's one reason everyone here should re-consider most Ubers back into the meta. And considering the bigger roster and boosts, there will definitely be checks and counters.

As for formulas, I don't think we should go for any drastic changes. It started with +5 to every stat, and now it's +10 to every stat. The formula I proposed is actually the same as Peef Rimgar's but disregards just the HP and Speed stats. Again this just ensures that Eviolite users and other Lower Tier mons aren't unstoppable. Currently on one spectrum we have our fun mon Sableye and you know all about its business; on the other spectrum we have a nice fast and bulky Simple/Unaware Calm Mind 20-140 real quick Stored Powered Swoobat holding one of those +Defense Terrain seeds. This is only two of many mons that are unhealthy for the meta. Also consider the new mons that are about to drop; there would be no point in using those if a select few mons can out cover every role and niche because of their considerable new bulk, speed, and strength.
upload_2017-10-26_19-43-36.png
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*current TS (+40). Note this is in a Meta without Ubers

And I really hate to ban a group of things when we could work with them? Banning things and choosing to not incorporate them ever again because of old metagames with differing formulas is lazy and cuts down on diversity. If a particular mon is too powerful and restricts the meta, then yeah they'll be gone in no time.
If anything maybe Ubers' stats should be decreased by 10-20 points in their highest stats. Mons with really high bst or versatility could overcome this problem and still be a healthy addition into the meta, though obviously mons like arceus are going to get nerfed harder than other Ubers.
tyrantytar what about just banning the Uber's Primal and Mega Stones if they're too OP?
 

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Hey everyone, I'm back after much thought, conversation, and calc'in scenarios regarding this meta; I definitely underestimated the Ubers potential in this meta. I considered their BST, but completely forgot all about their above-average coverage until I was using a few in randoms.

So I went back to the lab and made an addition to my formula: +10HP to all mons barring Ubers! And only +10.

Why just +10? Surprisingly, an extra +10 makes a noticeable difference.
Here are some formula comparisons:

Regular 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 165-195 (52.5 - 62.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Intial New TS model [+50 Def] 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 129-153 (41 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
New TS?[+10 HP, +50 Def] 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 129-153 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Would-be current TS[+50 HP, +50 Def] 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 129-153 (31.1 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

To be honest, Uber Stones will probably be banned even if Ubers make the meta for next TS. But which option you like more?
Essentially, granting every mon +10HP, barring Ubers, along with the TS boosts shifts the entire meta more into balance. That means less hyper offense = more playstyles.

Opting to use only +10 ensures that level damage moves like Night Shade and Seismic Toss do not become obsolete. Many passive and cleric mons lack movepool and offense so they rely on aforementioned moves

Using +10 also helps out with low HP but dense defense mons like Dusclops, Wishiwashi, and eviolite users but does not OP them

Thoughts? +10HP for all mons except Ubers, and an additional +10 to every stat, except for speed, for every tier below Ubers. Serious thoughts?


Tier: Uber

HP: 120
ATK: 120
DEF: 120
SpA: 120
SpD: 120
SPD: 120
BST -> 720


Tier: OU
HP: 100 (+10) -> 110
ATK: 164 (+10) -> 174
DEF: 150 (+10) ->160
SpA: 95 (+10) ->105
SpD: 120 (+10) -> 130
SPD: 71
New BST -> 740


Tier: UU
HP: 79 (+10) -> 89
ATK: 103 (+20) -> 123
DEF: 120 (+20) -> 140
SpA: 135 (+20) -> 155
SpD: 115 (+20) -> 135
SPD: 71
New BST -> 720


Tier: RU
HP: 120 (+10) -> 130
ATK: 70 (+30) -> 100
DEF: 120 (+30) ->150
SpA: 75 (+30) -> 105
SpD: 130 (+30) -> 160
SPD: 85
New BST -> 720


Tier: PU
HP: 95 (+10) -> 105
ATK: 95 (+50) -> 145
DEF: 95 (+50) ->145
SpA: 95 (+50) ->145
SpD: 95 (+50) -> 145
SPD: 59/95
New BST -> 780


Tier: PU
HP: 110 (+10) -> 120
ATK: 160 (+50) -> 210
DEF: 110 (+50) ->160
SpA: 80 (+50) -> 130
SpD: 110 (+50) -> 160
SPD: 100
New BST -> 870



Tier: LC
HP: 55 (+10) -> 65
ATK: 55 (+60) -> 115
DEF: 50 (+60) ->110
SpA: 45 (+60) -> 105
SpD: 65 (+60) -> 125
SPD: 55
New BST -> 575

Talked about it a bit with a mod on SD too, definitely possible B)

10/31/17 Edit: Maybe we should do a static speed boost as well, so the bst doesn't look so visually clunky. It does give new checks and counters to the uber mons too

Formula
Variables: X(HP & Speed), Y(Atk,Def,SpA, & SpD)
Rule: All tiers under Ubers recieves +10 to X stats, and every lower tier receives an additional +10 for Y stats

So Celebi being UU would look like: 110/120/120/120/120/110. Thoughts?

 
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I like the idea of reintroducing Ubers into the meta, but I also think we should stay away from the super-OP ones. Start with the controversial or late bans, like Aegislash, banned Megas besides Gengar, all Deoxys forms except Attack, that sort of thing. As for changing the stat formula, the entire point of OMs is to be simple. If we changed the formula too much, it would eventually turn into a pet mod.
 
Just want to take everyone down TS memory lane really quick, for everyone new and veteran, and go over some important points:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tier-shift-metagame-this-is-bw.3479358/

I'm sure Tier Shift was never about OP'ing the lower tiers to begin with. By the way thanks for coming up with this meta man.

Zarel been told everyone. And you're the man, Zarel!



Agreed.



Don't think it would hurt at all to bump up that 255 base stat limit for the sake of Tier Shift.



I'm trying here.



Again not OP, just usable.


http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/extreme-tier-shift.3540047/

Stall was a problem during Extreme Tier Shift? Why repeat history? Hello?
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tier-shift.3610073/

Thank you. It's really all about the players and we want to be welcoming as possible to every single player of every tier

But remember, being broken was never suppose to be the case.



LOL
A lot of us don't like change, and for some not even the slightest. But we got to break a bit from the original formula (well, we kind of did already) and try one that's more sensible and refined for this dear meta. Yes this is a link too; thoughts?

Well, this was embarrassing. It appears I was in the wrong this entire time in trying to change this meta's unconditional rule which is; proportional stat boosts across the board.

It wasn't my intention at all, I actually made a noob move. I apologize to everyone and the mods. I also want to thank those that gave me the time of day.
The leadership position for Tier Shift is now open.
B)
 

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the shift tier hit it and quit it tour is near and I was trying to find a viability ranking or just the more used mons but I can't find this, can anyone help me? ,_,
Landorus-T and Magearna are still solid picks; as well as most of the Tapus and Toxapex. Durant, Ursaring, Vivillon, Liligant and Eviolite SD Scyther are all good offensive threats and Mega Audino, Pyukumuku, Fat Eviolite users, Articuno (Defog), Xatu and such make for great picks for stall.
 
Due to the lack of an active metagame leader, OM leadership has made the executive decision to ban Eviolite from Tier Shift. The requirement for this to occur was made after the evident issues the current metagame is facing became abundant; through the constant pleas to unban Ubers and/or ban Eviolite to hopefully gain an offensive power increase to overtake the myriad of defensive powerhouses. The extent of the issues this metagame is facing should hopefully be alleviated due to this change.

We do not plan to make the metagame Ubers-based or revert the shift boosts for the time being. Please try to limit discussion to the current metagame rather than suggesting fundamental changes. G-Luke can decide how to handle this ban in his tournament, but I assume Eviolite will be permitted until the next round.

Edit: Also Tangela is unbanned for obvious reasons.
 
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