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Togekiss [WIP]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by FlareBlitz, May 19, 2012.

  1. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    [pimg]473[/pimg]
    Togekiss

    [Overview]


    [SET]
    name: Physically Defensive
    move 1: Air Slash
    move 2: Roost / Wish
    move 3: Thunder Wave / Heal Bell
    move 4: Nasty Plot / Protect
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Serene Grace
    nature: Bold
    evs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]


    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • 248 HP / 176 Def / 84 Spe Bold, 248 HP / 176 SpD / 84 Spe Calm, 248 HP / 16 SpA / 160 Def / 84 Spe Modest, and 248 HP / 16 SpA / 160 SpD / 84 Spe Modest. 84 evs beats min roserade, but you might not even need that much speed on more defensive sets tbh; 44 beats min 85s (cune and gligar), 52 beats min rotom-h/c, and 96 beats 252 spe modest empoleon,

    [SET]
    name: Specially Defensive
    move 1: Air Slash
    move 2: Roost / Wish
    move 3: Thunder Wave / Heal Bell
    move 4: Nasty Plot / Protect
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Serene Grace
    nature: Calm
    evs: 248 HP / 216 SpD / 44 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]


    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • Faster spread 232 HP / 180 SpA / 96 Spe Modest; beats 252 Spe Modest Empoleon and Roserade that only invest ~12 Spe

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Nasty Plot
    move 1: Nasty Plot
    move 2: Air Slash
    move 3: Aura Sphere
    move 4: Roost
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Serene Grace
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]


    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • Bulkier spread 232 HP / 180 SpA / 96 Spe Modest; beats 252 Spe Modest Empoleon and Roserade that only invest ~12 Spe

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Air Slash
    move 2: Aura Sphere
    move 3: Trick
    move 4: Tri Attack / Fire Blast
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Serene Grace
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]


    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]


    [Other Options]

    • Specs

    [Checks and Counters]

    • Zapdos, Raikou, Rotom, SpD Rhyperior.
    • Snorlax and Umbreon can get flinched to death--although Umreon does have access Inner Focus, so you can take advantage of that.
    • Focus on its midling Speed to beat it and try to avoid Thunder Wave.

    Cocks.
  2. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    I haven't really used WU Togekiss, but in theory he doesn't seem that bad... I mean ohkoing your bigger offensive checks after SR (Zapdos and Raikou) 80% of the time (Hustle) is not bad at all, while still hitting hard as fuck from the special side.

    Tbh +1 ES seems really good, since many faster mons are ohkoed by it, with or without SR, such as Flygon (SR), 4 HP Kingdra (SR), Heracross (SR), Roserade (no SR), Rotom-C (SR), Sharpedo(no SR), Darmanitan (no SR), Hitmonlee (no SR), Krookodile (SR), Victini (SR), Crobat (SR), Nidoking (SR), Weavile (no SR), Houndoom (no SR) and Azelf (no SR). These are most of the things that outspeed you and anything slower gets hurt pretty bad with the right move.

    Not the greatest set but still 80% acc. doesn't suck (Hydro Pump says hello), and it can take out it's usual counters, provide useful strong priority and wallbreak a bit.

    Opinions?
  3. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    I was the one who proposed the original Hustlekiss set, and I did so for pretty much exactly these reasons. Togekiss' offensive checks are all absolutely wrecked by +1 LO STAB ExtremeSpeed, and it's a very strong priority move in general. An 80% chance of luring and destroying powerful electrics types is quite decent. I can certainly test it again in this new metagame, though. I anticipate needing a slightly bulkier spread.

    Speaking of spreads...this is what I think the NP sets should be.

    Defensive Nasty Plot
    Modest
    Lefties
    232 HP / 216 Def / 16 SpA / 44 Spe
    -Nasty Plot
    -Air Slash
    -Roost
    -Heal Bell / Twave

    Offensive Nasty Plot
    Modest/Timid
    Lefties/LO
    252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    -Nasty Plot
    -Air Slash
    -Aura Sphere / Fire Blast
    -Roost

    These play wildly differently, and therefore deserve different sets. The offensive and defensive sets you have right now are basically the same thing, and one could be included in the AC of the other, so I think this approach is better.

    I would also recommend including a defensive Wish set, as Togekiss has excellent SpD and HP and access to very good support moves. You can play it like a Jirachi with worse typing.
  4. Snunch

    Snunch
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    I haven't used def Togekiss, but when I use spdef togekiss I find that it needs all the bulk it can get and doesn't have room for a modest nature or speed creep. You need maximum bulk to counter stuff like scarf chand and LO pedo. Speed creeping Gligar is ok in theory but you need to remember that most of them (and all of the good ones) are speed creeping too and you'll need a lot more than 44 spe to actually outspeed any in practice.

    So the defensive EVs should be 248 HP / 44 (def/sdef) / 216 (sdef/def) with the correct boosting nature.

    Wish support is a concept I've been intrigued by but completely forgot until I read flare's post. It seems good but somebody should probably test it first before putting it on the analysis.

    On the work up set, if flare still supports it than I support it.
  5. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Why does offensive NP even need Timid 252? I mean I literally don't know what it beats with >220 Speed.

    I still don't know what I should do about Def vs SpD Togekiss, btw

    Slashing the natures while having EVs geared towards one side is dumb, ACing it seems dumb because they play differently, and different sets implies they play a lot more differently than they do.

    What do you guys think of my proposition in the OP?
  6. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    I mostly gave it Timid 252 to speed tie Specs / LO Chandy and get the jump on neutral-speed 90s (offensive Rosie!). These are not that important, but you really shouldn't have less than 220 speed (neutral kingdra, nidoking, heracross) anyway, and I don't know that 32 EVs elsewhere helps that much.

    Also, the EVs on the defensive NP set are just what I use. I like the defense because Togekiss finds itself on the other end of revenge kill attempts by Darm / Krook / Victini / Flygon very often - specially based revenge killers are less common, and really just amount to Zapdos, Raikou, and Nidoking (the first two of which it can't beat even with more SpD anyway). I would be open to alternate EV spreads; I know snunch has had success with a heavily SpD variant. I like Modest with 16 EVs because it maximizes total stat points, but as I said, I would be open to other spreads.

    I will test work up. I would prefer a more stall/balance oriented player test Wish. The set should be Air Slash / Twave or Body Slam / Wish / Heal Bell or Protect. Snunch's EV spread actually seems rather nice for such a set.
  7. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    I know, right? Man, what wouldn't I give to put Heal Bell and Thunder Wave on the same Nasty Plot set. Too bad Togekiss actually needs Roost, and needs to sacrifice a moveslot one way or another. There's times when I want Thunder Wave to screw over fast Pokemon, and yet I feel the need to screw over stall with Heal Bell.

    ...*ahem*. Hello, Togekiss user reporting.

    In the case of the Offensive Nasty Plot set (assuming a Timid nature), the extra EVs are best invested in Speed, since, at times, maximizing the base 80 Speed can be pretty important in case of certain situations, and the extra 32 doesn't really help in any other stat except for Special Attack (a few more SpA points doesn't hurt, especially since Togekiss has Nasty Plot).

    As for the defensive Nasty Plot, I knew it best when I wrote the UU analysis, and Chansey / fast attackers were all over the place, so the Speed + Heal Bell were necessary. I do suppose we can cut down on the Speed and add in Thunder Wave; however, just mention both defensive spreads in the AC, and choose whichever suits Togekiss in the current metagame. Mention that Togekiss can opt to use a few Speed points to outrun slower Pokemon when it's paralyzed (for example, min. Speed Suicune).

    Also, isn't the Offensive Nasty Plot set in the OP essentially a more offensive version of the defensive one? It differentiates itself from defensive NP by being able to take down teams in a flash with Speed and coverage, so I'm not entirely sure about Heal Bell being there. I agree, however, that a spread based on Leftovers should be created, since, at times, I really disliked the extra recoil Togekiss took in addition to faster attacks and SR damage.

    For the heck of it, just put Scarf back on. It's the second set on the analysis for a reason (when I wrote this, it was originally the fourth), so I'm sure we're not all crazy about using it. It has offensive merit, so why not.
  8. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    @Flareblitz, nah-- calm specially bulky NP togekiss with thunder wave has a pretty good chance of kicking Zapdos's ass 1 on 1 as long as the other isn't using Toxic (and doesn't get lucky with thunderbolt paralysis).
  9. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    I don't play that much UU (I only go on there to spam Smashpass, really), but something tells me that Togekiss is way more versatile than just two Nasty Plot sets. Other potentially good sets that Togekiss could be using:

    - Choice Scarf - Quite obvious. The SR weakness is annoying, but it makes up for this with flinch-hax, Trick, usable speed, good attacking power and bulk as well as excellent coverage.
    - Choice Specs - Specs plays quite differently to Scarf, one relys on Air Slash and good coverage to revenge kill things, while Specs is there to severely damage things with Tri Attack).
    - Support - Togekiss has access to Wish, Thunder Wave, Heal Bell, Encore, Roost to heal itself as well as excellent bulk. More than enough moves to be a good supporter.
    - HustleKiss - Listen to Flare on this, although if I can use this relatively successfully in OU, I can't imagine it doing badly in UU either.
    - Baton Pass
  10. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Don't worry I don't plan on omitting any viable sets, right now I only put up the one's I'm gonna do for sure. The only reason I haven't put up Scarf and Support is because the general consensus so far has been to only list sets that see actual usage (same reason why I'm reluctant to list Mixed and Specs).

    I'm most certainly not going to leave only the two NP sets there, though.

    Oh, and I'll work more on this soon, I've been a little distracted lately.
  11. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Okay I tested Work Up.

    Togekiss @ Life Orb
    Brave
    232 HP / 252 Atk / 92 Spe
    -Work Up
    -ExtremeSpeed
    -Drain Punch
    -Air Slash

    This is the EV spread and moveset I found most useful. The high HP is to survive things like Chandelure's Fire Blast and also gives you both a Life Orb number. Max attack is obvious. The speed lets you outrun 0 Spe base 80s and Blastoise (I speed creeped a bit with my actual set but the analysis can't do that). Life Orb is absolutely necessary here - otherwise Togekiss fails to kill a very large number of things with ExtremeSpeed, which defeats the purpose of this set. You don't need any SpA investment because Air Slash will mostly be used against things with Intimidate or heavy Def investment, like Blastoise and Gligar. It hurts those just fine. Mention that this is fantastic at luring special walls like Empoleon and Snorlax, and offensive electric checks like Zapdos and Raikou. Anything that appreciates all these gone (thinking of kingdra) enjoys being paired with Togekiss.
  12. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    I think I figured out what I'm gonna do:

    Set #1 - SpD support with NP slashed in
    Set #2 - Def support with NP slashed in
    Set #3 - NP (offensive with a slower spread in AC)
    Set #4 - Choice Scarf
    Set #5 - Flare's Work Up set

    OO - Specs and whatever else

    This lets me cover everything (including the support set!) without bunching the SpD NP set with the Def NP set.

    What do the other QC members think? I think this is the best solution.
  13. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    I would have the Work Up set above Choice Scarf, but everything else looks great. My only concern is that the support sets might get slashy. You may want to go with:

    Air Slash
    Roost / Wish
    Twave / Heal Bell
    NP / Heal Bell
  14. Gone to the beach

    Gone to the beach

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    Been creeping on this thread, finally got around to testing a wish set.

    Togekiss (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Wish
    - Air Slash
    - Thunder Wave
    - Protect


    This thing works just like jirachi in OU. I use it as an all-around wall that handles a lot of different threats. I think it works great as an intermediary between a special and physical wall core. Personally, I have used gligar as my physical and milotic as my special. Togekiss was also used to great affect slowing down the other team, as the only things that could break through it hated a thunder wave (fire trio, hera, mienshao). This paved the way for my bulky attackers to wreck the other team.



    I would like to point out this, Togekiss is outclassed as a wishpasser on a stall team by umbreon by leaps and bounds. Stall doesn't appreciate paralysis much and umbreon just outperforms as a wall in general. Toge kiss was very effective in a balanced team though for reasons explained.


    Onto move changes, protect or thunder wave could be slashed with heal bell, but togekiss tends to go down faster, and umbreon does a better job when using heal bell.


    Hope this helped and this set will be going up.
  15. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    I'll write this up soon, I pwomise.
  16. Nas

    Nas I bring the drama
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    I'd say Heal Bell needs to be slashed first on the Physically/Specially Defensive sets. Thunder Wave is decent to cripple offensive mons and abuse ParaFlinch, but Heal Bell lets Kiss set up on Hitmontop, Umbreon, Bronzong, and the hundreds of other defensive mons that would otherwise cripple Kiss with Toxic. This, in my opinion, is more important for a bulky setup sweeper. (Not to mention it provides awesome team support) I also think you should separate WishKiss into a seperate set, it looks too cloggy right now and it plays a lot differently than the Nasty Plot set does.
  17. NGC-2024

    NGC-2024

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    This isn't a huge deal, but those EV's total way more than 510 lol
  18. Omfuga

    Omfuga

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    Ik it says specs under other options, but why not post my set. Specs is an AMAZING set, I've broken snorlax, umbreon, and ohkod things like swampert, rhyperior, bronzong, nidoking (with hazards), rotom-h (with rocks), and steelix, thought of to be its greatest counters, and definitely common switch-ins. It breaks standard dusclops with only 2 flinches with hazards, 1 flinch after the switch-in with hazards, and one more on each without hazards, and its so unexpected that people can get screwed, and I'm just gonna go out and say it; I think specs togekiss is one of the top 3 stallbreakers in the whole tier, along with banded darmanitan, and other super-hard hitters. Anyway, on to the set.

    252 spec attack and speed; modest.
    Air slash
    Grass knot
    Fire Blast
    Tri-attack (hitting nidoking, rotom-h, raikou, and other not-so-frail not-so-bulky threats in the tier that dont like taking hazards; mostly for rotom-h.)/Trick

    It's pretty Easy, it beats the most common stealth rockers I can think of; rhyperior, swampert, and bronzong almost NEVER switch out on togekiss, and they all get ohkod assuming theyre the standard sets. There isn't much to elaborate on, base 120 special attack, amazing serene grace air slash STAB, and gets stealth rockers off the field easily.


    Next set is, uh, unorthodox to say the least.

    252 Evs in attack and hp; Hustle; adamant.

    extremespeed
    aerial ace
    drain punch
    trick

    Togekiss boasts the second-strongest extremespeed in the game possessing a 337 attack stat iirc and STAB, it does more than banded rayquaza. It does AMAZINGLY when it hits through hustle with extremespeed. To put it into perspective it does 71% - 84% to flygon with an extremespeed. I like to come in on a predicted darmanitan, flygon, or victini, and as they u-turn fearing a twave, or their outrages not to do over 50% in a roost war, an espeed is a 2hko on all of them and almost an ohko on flygon and darmanitan. Aerial ace because it hits and there's nothing better, trick because maybe you want to get rid of the choice band or trick a bronzong or something, and drain punch for steel types. This surprises people even more than specs and its great.

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