I know. I just said that because Skarmory can either run Assault Vest for an attacking set (won't do much since Toxapex is very bulky outside of that HP) or just Spikes/Stealth Rock then possibly Whirlwind it out if it carries that move (if Skarmory isn't running AV). The only thing about Whirlwind is that it allows Toxapex to abuse that Regenerator Ability...which is not needed for the one who wants that sea star out of the way. Thanks for pointing that out though, should've split the Skarmory sets as two different sets not one.
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Pokémon Toxapex
- Thread starter Samoyed
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I wouldn't recommend Assault Vest Skarmory. It has only base 80 Attack, and unlike something like Talonflame it doesn't have speed, nor priority, nor a powerful secondary STAB to go along with it. Basic SpDef Skarmory would be more effective. Or just use Celesteela.
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Who would 'send' a Talonflame into a Toxapex? Celesteela is a Legendary, I don't really place Legendaries into the equation as much unless the Pokemon being discussed on the topic is a Legendary itself. Then again there are other items and Pokemon that work better than Skarmory when dealing with Toxapex, just that I would use Skarmory to set-up SR and/or Spikes before switching out as the Sea Star isn't much of a threat to Skarmory outside of burning the metal bird.
Running through the numbers, Talonflame actually would be pretty decent against Toxapex. Assuming the Toxapex tries to Toxic or Scald Talonflame the first turn while Talonflame is SDing, Talonflame's following Brave Bird would rip a serious chunk out of Toxapex. Granted Toxapex would likely switch out to heal the chunk or be KOed for sure, you'd still have your powered up birb alive.
+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 183-216 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While not an ideal counter, if the opponent has no options left (for example they have an Ice or Grass type along with Toxapex), Talonflame has a good chance of KOing Toxapex when it returns (+33% HP from Regenerator). Even if Toxapex survives the second Brave Bird through Regenerator, unless it Scalded to KO Talonflame, it's done on the 3rd Brave Bird. It'd be situational, but doable I believe.
I was using Talonflame as an example of a pokemon with Attack similar to Skarmory's, and describing why it was used offensively while Skarmory isn't. And there is no distinction between legendary and non-legendary when discussing competitive, it's nothing more than an arbitrary label applied for in-game lore reasons.
But yes, I suppose Skarmory can use Toxapex as setup fodder, just as it can with most other walls.
On this forum, the label "Legendary" doesn't carry any weight in and of itself, as GF has time and again designed both unviable Legendaries and good-to-broken normal Pokemon. The comparison wasn't to say use Talonflame for Toxapex, but to underline the fact that offensive is just a bad set in general. It's slow, not very powerful, lacks good coverage or priority, and in general is just better suited to walling. Celesteela was mentioned because it shares the typing and actually has a degree of offensive presence.
Toxapex isn't much of a threat to Skarmory, but neither is Skarmory much threat to it. Toxapex can just as easily pile up Toxic Spikes as Skarmory can SR or Spikes, and Skarm can't stop those without defogging its own hazard. Even if it's a Taunt set, Skarmory is incredibly passive and grants a very easy entry to the opponent's team.
Talonflame is a nice Pokemon despite Gale Wings being moved from best skill it can have to best skill to get a strong hit in first. Just did the damage specs in case this ever happens:
0 Atk Toxapex Smack Down vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 72 - 88 (46.7 - 57.1%) -- 78.1% chance to 2HKO. Not likely that something like this will show up, but it's still slightly possible and Brave Bird makes chances of a sure 2HKO even closer. Talonflame would need to come in with just about full HP before using Brave Bird as just one BB drops it down to nearly 90-100 HP if it had 154 HP (4 HP EVs and 31 IVs). Given the responses I got, as Toxapex is also rather passive, you could send in something that is immune to Poison and is fairly bulky and set up seeing as it won't do too much damage outside of Burn damage.
I rarely run any Legendary Pokemon on my online teams since I find battles more challenging using common Pokemon than those you can only get one of normally (outside of things like the UBs where you sometimes can get more than one of). I have nothing serious against players who use anything that can be regarded as Legendary Pokemon in online battles but I hold a bit of a ruling on when and why I should use them if at all. Right now I'm trying to find Pre-Poke Bank common Pokemon in Alola that can deal with Toxapex as I already have Pokemon on my ORAS and X/Y files that can KO it with less trouble.
Oh, can you please stay quiet if you can't find something polite to say to me at the very least, I'm still quite new to Smogon and I really can't tolerate insults that well and you already gave me this same message in my inbox.
Mega-Lucario and Mega-Blaziken are banned for a reason, and no matter how you try to spin it, those two pokemon are strictly superior to Regigigas and Articuno. Hell, non-Mega Speed-Boost Blaziken + Swords dance + Baton Pass is banned on two counts (Uber clause AND Baton Pass clause).
Legendaries are cool and evoke a "feeling" of power. But on Smogon, the general feel is to focus on the competitive aspect of Pokemon. As the label of "legendary" includes Pokemon that are weaker than "standard" Pokemon (like standard Blaziken), it is a pointless distinction in the Smogon competitive spirit. I'm not necessarily saying its completely pointless (in-game and Pokemon-lore wise, there is definitely a difference). But those are not the aspects that Smogon generally focuses on.
Lots of things, even if we do this "your way" and use non-legendaries.
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 264-312 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 179-213 (58.8 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 168-198 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 13-15 (3.3 - 3.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+1 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 376-444 (117.1 - 138.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Toxapex: 276-328 (85.9 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Well that's that then, isn't it? Plenty of Pokemon deal with Toxapex. And "Legendaries" like Regigigas or Articuno won't help you.
No it is not. Talonflame might actually be worse than Swellow in this generation.
252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO
No recoil damage, 125 speed tier (just 1 slower than Talonflame), only 2x weak to Stealth Rocks, far more power with trivial amounts of setup (just a turn to activate the Flame Orb). Flame-orb blocks Paralysis. Doesn't need a Swords Dance to 2HKO Toxapex. Etc. etc.
Swellow is your "Toxic-immune / Status-immune" bird of choice of NU tier. And Talonflame is going to be competing rather strongly against it.
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Except Talonflame has Fire STAB so it's not completely walled by Ghosts (since you're running Guts over Scrappy) or Steel types. But hey, this is probably best left in a Talonflame vs Swellow debate instead of a Talonflame/Swellow vs Toxapex debate. Arguably, both do good against the regenerating Corsola-eater, with Swellow a bit better thanks to Toxic immunity, but then comes in another problem. If Toxapex can't toxic you, it with either 1) Switch out to something that can KO you with ease, or 2) Recover stall you until you get KO'd from Burn damage. Option 2 doesn't sound as bad since it means you pretty much neutered Toxapex's biggest tool by sacrificing your birb, but then you have the possibility of running into one of the rare people who, for some reason, run Protect/Baneful Bunker just to be special and different. So in this situation, both birbs have their points and weaknesses. At the end of the day though, neither would probably ever be used specifically against Toxapex.
Never really used M-Blaz since I ran around with Life Orb most of the time if I used vanilla Blazikan (I commonly found myself dealing with Ground, Ghost, Poison and Fairy-Type opponents in online battles so Blazikan wasn't looking too great). Used to enjoy M-Lucario until I really struggled finding appropriate coverage but I can find some better Fighting-Types who while slower have better Defense.
In general, I can talk about using Legendaries being used to counter other Pokemon, but I sometimes get things like "Why do you keep mention 'Legendaries' so much" even when there are times when Legendary Pokemon are the best option just to counter certain threats. In-game when I'm online, I use bred Pokemon most of the time these days since I can get useful sets that allow me to make some new teams. Legendaries are indeed cool when you look at some of them and they do retain that sense of strength.
I did say "A 'nice' Pokemon" didn't I? I'm not saying that Talonflame is one of the best to use, just that even with that loss in potential it still has some potential for getting some teams into position either at the start of the match or late game depending on how you play. Certainly not the best as its best ability got nerfed and there are more physical tanks out there now in Alola but it's not the worst. I still like Swellow, use it fairly well in the Battle Tower/Maison in ORAS with anti-tank allies.
*Chomps is still a favorable Pokemon, one of my best mixed users as I run my common Chomps as M-CM (Mega-Chomp-Mixed), I can describe what I mean by that later.
*Starmie has to hope that there are no entry hazards as a...
4 Atk Toxapex Payback (100 BP) vs. 4 HP /0 Def Starmie with a critical hit: 92 - 110 (67.6 - 80.8%) -- 50% chance of a OHKO after SR and one layer of Spikes. I don't think that Starmie will find both entry hazards in play though until Post-Poke Bank as Stealth Rock and Spikes are rather somewhat limited to the Alolan Pokemon who could be brought in.
*Magnezone of course checks and counters, but I'm just skeptical that Toxapex will be staying in once Magnezone shows up against it.
Just checked up on Vikavolt, it doesn't seem to fear much of Toxapex either as it isn't 2HKOd by anything Pex has to offer:
252+ Choice Specs Vikavolt T-Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Sp.Def Toxapex: 170 - 204 (108.2 - 129.9%) -- Guaranteed OHKO. This is just for singles before you swap Vika out for another Pokemon in this case.
I'm giving 'possible' scenarios, these aren't likely to be seen at all so you don't need to think that I'm actually saying that I use them as I don't run offensive stats on Pokemon whose Attack/Special Attack doesn't even reach or pass the the respective base stats by 80 (either/both 80 Base Attack or/and 80 Base Special Attack). I don't even have a Toxapex yet as I'm still working on getting a Mareanie with a good nature and it's not looking that great (been getting a lot of +Atk and +Spd natures recently and Toxapex doesn't need +Atk/Spd at all if running for a wall-set).
And yet you used Payback as the reason to not use Starmie. If it's not likely to see Toxapex run Smack Down or Payback, then there's no reason to bring it up, even as a possibility. It's like saying there's a possibility A-Ninetales will run Rain Dance or Sunny Day so we shouldn't do _____. That's not a reason.
I didn't say that as a reason to not use Starmie. I said that it better hope that there are no entry hazards on the field as a mere crit from Payback has a 50% chance to OHKO it if SR and one layer of Spikes are somehow still up on the field, I take some caution when online since entry hazards can tear apart teams still if left around as that additional damage builds up over time if you switch in and out. While Smack Down really doesn't have much going for it, Payback hits Psychic-Type Pokemon who come in and fail to KO it and it hits the fragile Ghost-Type that would keep it at bay if it came in (Gengar) on its rather poor Defensive stat although it doesn't get STAB it does 2HKO Gengar if it chooses to stay in to try to 2HKO Pex back with T-Bolt.
That is so ridiculously situational even past the Payback part. The Smack Down part was about Talonflame, which by the way Scald does the same damage as Smack Down with just 2x damage and STAB. So there goes Smack Down already. Now to deal with your notion that Payback is actually worthwhile on Toxapex. It's not. Recover, Toxic, Haze, and Scald. Four moves that do what Toxapex is infamous for. There's no room for a situational offensive attack that'd only be used on select few Pokemon. And to further it, it all depends on if Toxapex can even survive the Psychic hit. Even more situational to the point where there's no worth in using it. If someone sends out something like Lele, you get Toxapex out of there.
Toxapex is not going to run Payback. Toxapex is terrible offensively, the only attacking move it should commonly be running is Scald. And a critical hit as an argument is poor, as that's highly unlikely and out of your control.
At Smogon, we typically talk about things that are likely to happen. Ridiculous niche situations can be used to argue for just about any given matchup, but these are so unlikely to happen as to be negligible. It's like arguing you should never go outside because you might get hit by a meteor.
Nobody is going to be running Payback Toxapex, at least outside of the absolute bottom of the ladder. It's not worth discussing. It's not viable. It's not used by anyone against whom you should have to try to win. It's not a reason to argue against using Starmie.
Ok, outside of me giving pointless moves to a Pokemon here are the damage specs of the 'strongest' Psychic-Types obtained in Alola without Poke Bank running against Toxapex with the following stats:
Outside a positive Special Attack nature Lele, you're not going to get an easy OHKO on a 252 HP / 252+ Sp.Def Toxapex using LO/CS Timid Starmie or Alakazam (the prominent Psychic-Types outside of Lele in Alola).
252+ Sp.Atk Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ Sp.Def Toxapex: 158 - 188 (100.6 - 119.7%) -- Guaranteed OHKO only while Psychic Terrain is up. And like you said, who in the world keeps Toxapex in once Tapu Lele comes to join the party with its ability in play?
252+ Sp.Atk Choice Specs Starmie Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ Sp.Def Toxapex: 134 - 158 (85.3 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% Chance of OHKO. Yes, if 252+ Starmie doesn't run CS, it requires a 2HKO and Toxapex will most likely switch out after taking the first hit.
252 Sp.Atk Choice Specs Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ Sp.Def Toxapex: 150 - 176 (95.5 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% Chance to OHKO. That is pretty close. Life Orb requires a 2HKO.
252+ Sp.Atk LO Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ Sp.Def Toxapex: 140 - 166 (89.1 - 105.7%) -- 31.3% Chance to OHKO. Again playing very close. CS OHKOs with Psychic.
Only 252+ Tapu Lele with Psychic Terrain up can OHKO Toxapex properly like this and it won't even desire to stay in once Lele shows up.
Lunala if running 252 Sp.Atk requires a CS to OHKO with Psychic, LO 2HKOs. 252+ LO Psychic has a 43.8% Chance to OHKO while CS OHKOs straight through.
Since I can't really edit and reply to someone else in proper, I never said I used those situations as a reason to NOT use Starmie. Where in those posts of mine did I ever say that? Don't apply reality to a video game, the former has cases where things can be predicted with ease and if one gets hurt for some reason they didn't pay attention, it's that person's fault, the latter is just a video game. Players sometimes run sets that make no sense, you shouldn't take things so seriously. While yes, the chances of anything like what I had said regarding Toxapex using those moves is non-existent, it's not impossible to say that someone who first started playing Sun/Moon will choose some of the worst moves for their Pokemon thinking that they can use them against other new players before seeing what's better for them. I personally would try to find someway to get Toxapex to learn something that would help it with its move pool as 3 Status Moves + Scald is just asking to get hit by Taunt which then makes it switch out as it loses its only purpose apparently. With the common set that most people use according to these responses I get, best to just give Toxapex an Eject Button in the advent it survives an attack as it works pretty well with Regenerator even if it's just for one time.
Toxapex is going to be Taunted even if you gave it Payback and Scald because yes Toxapex's purpose is to soak up damage and Toxic stuff. It was made to do that. Also, again, this is smogon, where we do competitive analyzing. Whether or not the player is new has no bearings here. We're not the kiddie pool. We're here to find what works best. Payback doesn't work best. Offensive Toxapex is terrible. Eject Button is a terrible item for Toxapex because almost everything will hit it first. Yes, people will use sets that don't make sense. Those people usually are either testing, doing stuff for laughs, don't know what they're doing, or aren't here.
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/analogy
You're missing the point of the meteor comparison just like you did with my Talonflame one. Getting struck by a meteor is highly unlikely and not worth considering, just like offensive Toxapex. I'll be sure to be clearer in my statements.
"Don't take things so seriously" is a silly thing to say on a forum dedicated to competitive. We're here to discuss the best ways to win, and we're going to do that. I think what you're looking for is the Battle Spot subforum, not Uncharted Territory.
To be blunt, "Bad players might do it" is a bad argument. A good player will usually win regardless. If we really wanted to be talking about new players, we'd be talking about stupid bullshit like teams composed entirely of eeveelutions or starters. But we're not going to, because people shouldn't need help beating that.
Taunt has always been the enemy of wall pokemon. If you expect it or get hit by it, just switch out. Same as with every other wall.
Eject Button is terrible, because you switch in Toxapex on stuff it can wall. Eject Button means you can't switch in, eliminating the entire reason you use defensive pokemon in the first place. Eject Button just gives that opponent an extra hit and wastes your item slot. Use something that actually helps tanking like Leftovers or Rocky Helmet.
Or Black Sludge if you want to be mean to Trick users or want to use Leftovers on something else.
Look, there are sets called "lures" where you pretend and/or bluff to be one set, and then do a different set. Chainchomp of Gen4 fame was this: where some players would run Special Attack Garchomp to deal with specific Garchomp counters, "lure" them in, and then surprisingly KO them. Its a legitimate tactic, but an advanced one.
The problem is, you're not really describing Toxapex's role as a lure. I listed several good switchins to Toxapex: from Magnezone to Garchomp... but the only one you feel like "luring" is Starmie with a situational move like "Payback". That's... not a good lure. You're supposed to take the most common Pokemon and then somehow cripple them. And frankly, Toxapex's best strategy against a Choice Band Garchomp switch-in is to Scald him and hope for the 30% burn.
With Z-Attacks today, the best way to run a lure is to just equip a Z-Item on a powerful Pokemon and hit with a surprise high-power coverage move. Ex: Gyarados can give a surprise Z-Supersonic Skystrike off of Bounce (Aiming to lure Mega-Venusaur or Tapu Bulu and KO and/or cripple it)
What the hell is wrong with a 2HKO? 2HKO is the combat-relevant magic number. 2HKO means that Toxapex can't Recover back and will soon die.
Toxapex is also slow as all hell. As long as a Pokemon has more than 35 speed, its going to get the 2nd attack off.
Describe these situations.
Its hard for me to think of a use of Talonflame in OU, or even UU and RU. So please, explain what situation Talonflame is a "Nice Pokemon". Because as far as I can tell, Talonflame is completely outclassed by Hawlucha (Setup / Swords Dance), Staraptor (Choice Band / Scarf), Dragonite / Zapdos (Defense). And if you really think that Fire/Flying is somehow some major advantage there's Charizard-Y and Lol Moltres who will probably perform whatever job you're thinking of better.
Therefore, Talonflame isn't very relevant in OU anymore. It certainly isn't going to be a Pokemon you switch into Toxapex or even leave-in against Toxapex.
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 140-168 (47.1 - 56.5%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
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A bit late at the party but since hazards aren't really efficient in Doubles ...
Yes I'm well aware. I was playing devil's advocate. Toxic should pretty much always be used over Toxic Spikes.
First of all, Ultra Beasts technically aren't considered legendaries. Second, if you've come into competitive battling expecting legendaries to be put into a class of their own and all somehow limited or banned, you're going to be extremely disappointed. There's no rule that only legendaries can fight legendaries or anything like that.
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