U-turn Discussion and Poll

[dcae]

Today on #pokemon discussion turned to banning moves, more specifically U-turn.



00:34 <chaos> this man wants u-turn banned
00:34 <reyscarface> yeah i do want uturn banned
00:34 <Tehy_Different> I'm sure you mean Rey but i want it too
00:34 <dcae> ic
00:34 <Tehy_Different> too mindless 2 douchey
00:34 <dcae> thats interesting
00:34 <dcae> ive never thought about u-turn
00:34 <dcae> it is an amazing move
00:34 <reyscarface> uturn made landorus broken
00:34 <reyscarface> uturn made tornadus broken
00:34 <reyscarface> uturn made genesect broken
00:35 <Tehy_Different> To be fair
00:35 <dcae> it makes scizor amazing
00:35 <reyscarface> uturn makes scizor the most used pokemon in the game


Most of us never consider it, but U-turn is one of the rare moves that has less opportunity cost than reward. It is practically free momentum. A few problems that make U-turn possibly broken:

<&chaos> i see what you guys are saying but i must say i still think the biggest problem is that u-turn can actually hurt things, which is mainly related to its typing

Also, discussion was on how much distribution it has. A lot of mons have access to U-turn, stuff such as Jirachi, etc. This makes it even more dangerous as a move.

So, what is Smogon's opinion on this?

 

[vyomov]

I agree, U-Turn is simply too broken in the current meta: with the current pace of the meta, momentum is everything and with U-Turn you can do some damage to the incoming opponent and then switch to the appropriate counter.
This might sound a bit much, but without U-Turn Genesect might not have been so broken at all.

 

[Nauris]

I personally think that U-turn isn't broken, it makes some pokemons broken. It's also move that shaped the current meta. If U-turn or Volt switch didn't exist meta would most likely be more defensive than it currently is. And if U-turn is banned there's chance that Reuniclus' usage would rise.

 

[X5Dragon]

If you think U-Turn is bad wait until Gen 6 and Parting Shot is released. It's part of the metagame and even though it gave boost to momentum based teams and made trapping more viable, it is not exactly free with the existence of priorities and SR along with scarves.

Also Scizor is number one because of his pursuiting abilities, BP and offensive stats/typing.

 

[TUO]

I am really sick of all this talk about banning SR, U-Turn Scald or whatever just for one reason. They all end up being discussed and theorymoned, but the discussion just goes nowhere because people get alll confused. I think what people need to think is : Is it proper to ban a defining part of the metagame to improve it, even though it isn't really entirely broken on its own? I think if people can effectively answer that, that's when we can get serious on this.

 

[Scorpiopt]

U-Turn Broken? no hell no . it makes some pokemons hard to trap and counter ( Landorus for instance). but its part of momentum and a great scouting tool witch is part of an healthy competitive environment
Its up to the opponent to predict it and make the appropriate switch
IF the your oponent leads with Flygon , Scizor or Jirachi or Landorus chances are higher that he will just U-turn its up to you to predict the lead and deal with it accordingly

Stealth rock and u-turn are 2 complete different things they should not be compared at all

@vyomov Genesect was broken even if it didn't had u-turn , is stats were way too powerfull for OU

 

[Cherub Agent]

00:34 <reyscarface> uturn made landorus broken
00:34 <reyscarface> uturn made tornadus broken
00:34 <reyscarface> uturn made genesect broken

i cannot agree with this. while it is a move that these pokemon have in common, these pokemon were suspected because of their abilities and typing. landorus has the shattering earth power, great survivability due to solid bulk, no life orb recoil and immunity spikes. tornadus had regenerator which meat that it couldt be worn down, the blistering speed and was the best hurricane user (a move that could literally be spammed at leisure with nigh any drawbacks). genesect was broken mainly because of the rock polish set iirc which didnt use u-turn at all, and because of download, its great typing and infinite movepool. scarf was great with u-turn and all, but it wasn't what broke genesect.

sure you get the momentum, but the problem imo is with the trappers themselves who get in on the u-turn, not the move itself. if anything should be looked at it should be shadow tag, arena trap and pursuit.

 

[TUO]

U-Turn Broken? no hell no . it makes some pokemons hard to trap and counter ( Landorus for instance). but its part of momentum and a great scouting tool witch is part of an healthy competitive environment
Its up to the opponent to predict it and make the appropriate switch
IF the your oponent leads with Flygon , Scizor or Jirachi or Landorus chances are higher that he will just U-turn its up to you to predict the lead and deal with it accordingly

Stealth rock and u-turn are 2 complete different things they should not be compared at all

@vyomov Genesect was broken even if it didn't had u-turn , is stats were way too powerfull for OU

Is something that is able to put someone in a dead vs dead situation and you sound more like you're praising it for helping in momentum, is that kind of momentum healthy for the meta? If so, why? Is it that I can constantly get myself free switchins into a more threatening thing if I use the Volt Switch/U-turn resistances of another (read Rotom-W/Tyranitar pursuit trap core, or anything that can U-Turn into Hydreigon/Sub KyuB fodder (TauntTurn gliscor is uncommon, but I have won some really good matches with it alone)

I'll try to put it into a scenario. We have Pokemon A, who can be extremely threatening once it can setup, but has too many weaknesses and only a few key reistances to actually setup (whether it be a sub, or just time to fire off something really powerful) like Kyurem-Black. And I have Pokemon B, a Pokemon with defined counters in the metagame, that has U-Turn or Volt Switch, along with some solid resistances unlike Pokemon A, or has extreme ability to threaten off the get-go (Rotom-W is a resist variant, and Lando-I and Torn-T is a threaten example) If I can abuse the resistances of Pokemon B, or the immediate threatening power of Pokemon B, and U-Turn lure a Pokemon into Pokemon A, that kind of momentum is extremely threatening, and can put the opponent in lose/lose situations. I honestly think this momentum into power strats are seriously what ruin Stall, as these Lose/Lose situations force a loss of 1 mon or weakening one which is much more important in stall. Is that ability to checkmate someone just by sending in a mon good for the metagame?

No, I am not comparing it to Stealth Rock, i just think the same question should be posed for both of them. Think for a second and see that the opportunities with U-Turn Volt switch and Stealth Rock is mindblowing, and is pretty much metagame defining, rather than being healthy for it. So, is something that metagame defining something we are even capable of banning? Especially with all the audience we have right now, is a major change even possible? Lastly, is it a good idea to tip the meta on its head to make it better?

 

[Lady Alex]

I think U-turn is a pretty dumb move that takes no skill to use, but I think Stealth Rock is a greater priority than it. I think a lot of what makes U-turn/Volt-switch as effective as they are is the constant presence of Stealth Rock. Eating a U-turn + Stealth Rock damage adds up really fast and requires very minimal skill on the u-turners part, so I definitely think that there is an unhealthy affect on the metagame because of this interaction. I'm leaning more toward Stealth Rock being the issue than U-turn, but if we determine later that Stealth Rock isn't broken, I would be more than willing to look at U-turn/Volt-switch as potential suspects.

 

[dcae]

As we were discussing this on IRC, we compared U-turn and Volt Switch. The thing about Volt Switch is that its virtually limited to Electric types, making its distribution limited. Also, Ground types are immune to it, allowing them to, with good prediction, completely neuter momentum. U-turn isn't the same because it has great distribution and no immunities. No immunities permits you guaranteed momentum.

A note on Scizor

Also Scizor is number one because of his pursuiting abilities, BP and offensive stats/typing.

Scizor is not first because Pursuiting abilities, that move is generally thrown on as a filler on the mon. Bullet Punch Technician + U-turn is the reason it is first, because it has good Atk coupling that U-turn. Picture Scizor with Bug Bite instead of U-turn. It would be much more easy to deal with, as it doesn't switch to something dangerous everytime it hits something hard with U-turn.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I wouldn't say U-turn alone is broken. However, the factors around U-Turn (switching in and taking SR and possibly Spikes damage, the fact that U-turn is very often paired with Volt Switch, meaning physical walls that come into the U-turn are often forced out by Volt Switch, and and U-turn gains a lot of momentum) may be considered broken.

I don't think there ever was a discussion about U-turn ever being even slightly broken in 4th gen, and I believe it's because of the factors around U-turn. In gen 4 there wasn't Volt Switch, and the metagame wasn't even near as offensive as it is now.

Is U-turn broken? No, but I can see why people might think that.

 

[BKC]

genesect and torn-t would've been broken even without u-turn.

however i agree with rey that as a whole u-turn's just a really uncompetitive move. so is volt switch, for that matter.

i agree with cherub that switch move + trapping is really retarded and skill-less, but even without trapping, u-turn/volt switch are ridiculously good in their own right.

i also agree with lady alex that part of what makes u-turn/volt switch so bad is stealth rock racking up damage really fast...

i disagree with x5dragon, scizor is not even close to the #1 pursuiter, try tyranitar.

 

[Pikachuun]

Hypothetical Scenario:

If you ban U-turn, Psychic type usage will increase. When this happens, Pokemon like Conkeldurr will drop to UU/BL as Zam/Rank's usage increases. Then, Ferrothorn gets better, with its only OU counters being sun teams and Terrakion/Keldeo. Then, people complain about Ferrothorn, it gets suspected and banned. Then usage of Jellicent increases, and it's basically a vicious cycle.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Hypothetical Scenario:

If you ban U-turn, Psychic type usage will increase. When this happens, Pokemon like Conkeldurr will drop to UU/BL as Zam/Rank's usage increases. Then, Ferrothorn gets better, with its only OU counters being sun teams and Terrakion/Keldeo. Then, people complain about Ferrothorn, it gets suspected and banned. Then usage of Jellicent increases, and it's basically a vicious cycle.

Honestly, none of this can be considered true, because no one knows what a metagame without U-turn would look like. This is theorymoning, and doesn't bring much to the discussion. By the looks of it, you don't have a great understanding of the current metagame, as the best counter to Ferrothorn is Xatu (a Psychic type which you said would increase in usage), so how does Ferrothorn become broken again? And even if it somehow does become broken if U-turn is banned, so be it. We will ban Ferrothorn as well. We shouldn't be using the argument something Broken (U-turn) keeps other broken stuff (Ferrothorn) in check, so we shouldn't ban it.

 

[X5Dragon]

I never said he was the number 1 pursuiter, but it cause his spike in usage these days because of all the jellis and celebis and latis running around.

Scizor is not first because Pursuiting abilities, that move is generally thrown on as a filler on the mon. Bullet Punch Technician + U-turn is the reason it is first, because it has good Atk coupling that U-turn. Picture Scizor with Bug Bite instead of U-turn. It would be much more easy to deal with, as it doesn't switch to something dangerous everytime it hits something hard with U-turn. _________

Pursuit isn't a filler move, and second who said he had to switch? One his more important sets are the SD variants, both bulky and speed invested, in which bug bite is his most hard hitting STAB.

U-Turn is great, but it doesn't make or break Scizor.

Edit: To keep on topic, I wish we can raise this discussion once the SR-less ladder is set-up, then we can truly see what U-Turn is capable of, many people argue U-turn is made worse because of it, and I say you can counter volt switching by setting up your own rocks.

Edit2: To summarize Volt Switching is what helps the meta to be offensively oriented as seen each month by the scale, another weapon that makes offense a slightly better option. On it's own however Volt Switching teams make up less than 6% of all teams.

 

[Sound]

Edit: To keep on topic, I wish we can raise this discussion once the SR-less ladder is set-up, then we can truly see what U-Turn is capable of, many people argue U-turn is made worse because of it, and I say you can counter volt switching by setting up your own rocks.

In a scenario where both sides have rocks, Volt-Turn has the advantage. Volt-Turn forces plenty of switches on both sides, but Volt-Turn also has the damage from itself added in, meaning that it will generally come out on top (unless you have some trick. I remember an anti VT team from BW1 that used Dragon Tail Gyarados, which wore down Rotom-W pretty quickly). The best way to beat VT is to quite simply kill the Turners.

On my opinion of U-Turn. Ehhhh. While it certainly doesn't make or break Pokemon, it does make things so much easier for the user. It's one of the things the meta could do without. Volt-Turn tends to be mindless in my experience. Just keep pressing that move until your opponent's walls are worn down enough for your sweeper.

 

[baddjordan]

I don't think it would be broken if SR was banned.

 

[Professor Birch]

As I have been reading this, I agree with many of you. U-Turn and Volt Switch is a move that takes no skill to use and is just a pain in the ass. It is in no way broken though. Since we are using Scizor as an example. Lets say it is Scizor and Latios. Scizor can U-Turn but Latios can just HP Fire and take it down. If you really have an issue, make sure your team has a counter to it. It is not like U-Turn rapes everything in the game so stop complaining that it is broken.

 

[Groudon ex]

I never said he was the number 1 pursuiter, but it cause his spike in usage these days because of all the jellis and celebis and latis running around.

what the orange juice, how does scizor pursuit trap jellicent exactly

i think u-turn/volt switch makes the game a lot easier for one thing. it requires almost no prediction to use since there's almost no drawbacks for the user; it's basically a "safety" option to use when you're not sure what the opponent will bring in. stealth rock does actually keep u-turn users in check somewhat though, because they'll be switching in and out a lot too, building up passive damage on their own side. torn-t was an exception because of regenerator, and hence was overpowered because there was almost no risk in using it, and was very difficult to deal with because it could always u-turn away for free from the few things that could counter it. genesect was broken mostly because of the rp set, though the scarf set was also pretty op because not only could it actually cause some serious damage with download boosted u-turns, it could also threaten stuff with its impressive coverage, forcing switches that could be taken advantage of with u-turn. landorus doesn't quite get away completely scott free from using u-turn due to lo recoil, but makes it even harder to counter due to hurting two of its most popular checks (celebi, latias).

whilst u-turn/volt switch have certainly been a huge factor of the success of many pokemon, as a whole, i don't think u-turn/volt switch are inherently broken. some pokemon benefit in a positive way from it: see forretress for example, which becomes much less of a momentum killer, encouraging its use on teams other than full stall. if celebi didn't have access to baton pass/u-turn, it would be even bigger pursuit bait for ttar. although some broken pokemon may have had u-turn, i think it was their other qualities combined with access to u-turn, rather than u-turn itself, that contributed to this factor. instead of banning the move altogether, we should stick to looking at individual suspects.

 

[GCSChris]

00:34 <reyscarface> uturn made landorus broken
00:34 <reyscarface> uturn made tornadus broken
00:34 <reyscarface> uturn made genesect broken

The term broken is so incredibly overused (no pun intended) it's ridiculous. While Tornadus and Genesect were broken as all hell, and we'll soon see what the consensus is on Landorus, you can't say that u-turn made these pokemon broken. Did it influence them and their move sets greatly? Absolutely. Would pokemon like genesect be broken without u-turn? Absolutely. I just find it ridiculous that you could say that this single (while amazing) move made these incredibly busted, OP pokemon broken on its own.

I am really sick of all this talk about banning SR, U-Turn Scald or whatever just for one reason. They all end up being discussed and theorymoned, but the discussion just goes nowhere because people get alll confused. I think what people need to think is : Is it proper to ban a defining part of the metagame to improve it, even though it isn't really entirely broken on its own? I think if people can effectively answer that, that's when we can get serious on this.

I completely agree with this. While U-Turn is obviously one of the best moves in the game, as it not only gives incredible momentum, but is a decently powerful move and provides good coverage to some things that really want it, it is by no means broken. Just because it defines the metagame doesn't mean that it is broken. While I see why people could say that it's broken, IMO (and from the looks of the poll most people's) it's not.

Scizor is not first because Pursuiting abilities, that move is generally thrown on as a filler on the mon.

You're aboslutely right in saying that Scizor is not first because of its Pursuiting abilities (ummm... T-tar?), but Pursuit is by no means a filler move on Scizor. BP and U-Turn used way more of course, but it's far from filler.

Also, I agree with most people saying that VoltTurn is really limited by Stealth Rock and entry hazards in general.

 

[Spinda]

U-turn really takes a lot of prediction out of the game, I would love to see a metagame with u-turn banned to see how it would all pan out

 

[Houndoomsday]

I can't see U-Turn being that big of a deal- yes it gives the player momentum and lets them deal some damage to the enemy pokemon- but Baton Pass did the same thing, just without a minimal amount of damage dealt. Unless U-Turn hits a Pokemon weak to it, it basically is residual damage. In addition a good player can't just rely on U-Turn/Volt Switch- it is merely a tool in their arsenal.

 

[Neliel]

I can't see U-Turn being that big of a deal- yes it gives the player momentum and lets them deal some damage to the enemy pokemon- but Baton Pass did the same thing, just without a minimal amount of damage dealt. Unless U-Turn hits a Pokemon weak to it, it basically is residual damage. In addition a good player can't just rely on U-Turn/Volt Switch- it is merely a tool in their arsenal.

well, if you remember the standard sand offense team in bw1, it was that good just because of u-turn-volt switch, so yes a good player could just rely on that to win a battle
also i dont like u-turn and scouting moves in general because its too easy to trap stuff in combination with said move (think about lando+ttar, genesect+dugtrio ect)

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

My view on suspecting U-turn (or Volt Switch) is the same as Stealth Rock: its a move. I have a hard time seeing good reason to ban a move its self unless it is obviously un-competitive (evasion, 1HKO, ect). Could U-turn be un-competitive? Perhaps, it does take a lot of prediction out the game, and in some cases makes it a blinding chip-fest for something else to sweep, but overall you are going to have a hard time convincing me that it is anywhere near the same level as Double Team.

I am not the biggest slippery-slope man, but I should not that there are plenty of other Pokemon which have been banned for similar moves in the past, most recently Outrage, why not ban Outrage? IMO the point that recently banned Pokemon have the move isn't a good justification of suspecting it.

I would chance my mind though is U-turn teams started taking the meta by storm again, almost like they did in late BW1. If it come to the point where not running it would be a determent to your team, then the move it's self might be worth putting to question.

 

[PK Gaming]

Last I checked, being "mindless or skill-less" has never been an argument in favor of banning moves. U-turn is a good move that happens to be bit ridiculous on certain Pokemon. If Landorus, Tornadus-T and Genesect didn't get U-turn, would you no longer favor banning it? Because right now, you're basically arguing to ban an entire move in order to preserve 3~ Pokemon (not even that, Tornadus-T and Genesect are arguably broken without U-turn). This thread is just another version of "Let's completely ban X because it makes Y too good" that popped during the Blaziken / Excadrill tests.

I'm honestly disappointed right now, Reyscarface should know better.