UK and the EU referendum

[Sapientia]

You're an "EU citizen"? Really?

I hope EU crumbles and dies so something better can rise from its ashes.

I also consider myself rather European than German, even though the EU right now has many flaws and needs a lot of reformation. Unfortunatly I guess we will rather have to deal with people like le Pen, Wilder, Strache, Petry, etc. who just blame the EU and the immigrants for everything that's wrong and not contribute to any positive change at all. "Everything sucks and should die" is not a very constructive point of view, that's just opportunists trying to get benefit for themselves.

Germany wants to force all countries to take in refugees and immigrants from Middle East because Merkel was shortsighted af with what she offered.

As for the economy, UK will be fine as long as EU doesn't go all jilted lover on them.

As far as I know refugees haven't been important in Brexit campaings, but I'm not British so I might have missed some points.
I guess we all agree hat Dublin III failed and is his horrible in it's whole conception, since it was mostly a result of countries like Germany who don't have relevant broders to leave this problem mostly to Spain, Italy, and Greece. We much rather need something similar to the "Königsreicher Schlüssel" in order to distribute refugees according to the capacities of the countries. Of course it's wrong that Germany demands that now, when we have to deal with most of the immigrants to europe and didn't give a fuck as long as it was the problem of other countries. But nonetheless this is something that has to be done.

To be honest I don't think the EU will suffer too much, unless there will be more successful referendums in the future. But the EU can live without GB and to be honest it's a not very smart move to go back to nationalism in a globalised world in which a single 70m people country got nothing to say compared to giants like the USA, China, India or even the European Union.

 

[Rody]

Once again it's the Brits who free Europe. Let's hope this will have a domino effect

 

[Aladyyn]

I also consider myself rather European than German, even though the EU right now has many flaws and needs a lot of reformation. Unfortunatly I guess we will rather have to deal with people like le Pen, Wilder, Strache, Petry, etc. who just blame the EU and the immigrants for everything that's wrong and not contribute to any positive change at all. "Everything sucks and should die" is not a very constructive point of view, that's just opportunists trying to get benefit for themselves.

Figures.

EU has been going down a steep slope ever since Treaty of Lisbon and nothing's been done about it for 7 years. What makes you thing a significant change is possible, especially with people like Juncker at the helm?

As far as I know refugees haven't been important in Brexit campaings, but I'm not British so I might have missed some points.
I guess we all agree hat Dublin III failed and is his horrible in it's whole conception, since it was mostly a result of countries like Germany who don't have relevant broders to leave this problem mostly to Spain, Italy, and Greece. We much rather need something similar to the "Königsreicher Schlüssel" in order to distribute refugees according to the capacities of the countries. Of course it's wrong that Germany demands that now, when we have to deal with most of the immigrants to europe and didn't give a fuck as long as it was the problem of other countries. But nonetheless this is something that has to be done.

To be honest I don't think the EU will suffer too much, unless there will be more successful referendums in the future. But the EU can live without GB and to be honest it's a not very smart move to go back to nationalism in a globalised world in which a single 70m people country got nothing to say compared to giants like the USA, China, India or even the European Union.

No, it's not something that has to be done, you can't just force sovereign countries to do what you want, that is the exact fucking problem with the Union. Sure, there are some upsides but that doesn't mean we should take all the shit that comes with it as well.

 

[Cresselia~~]

EU might just be as scared as UK is.
There is no way that UK's economy will be stable after leaving EU.
Whereas EU might be scared because Holland wants to leabe to, and the others may also follow.

 

[Aladyyn]

EU might just be as scared as UK is.
There is no way that UK's economy will be stable after leaving EU.
Whereas EU might be scared because Holland wants to leabe to, and the others may also follow.

UK's economy will be stable unless someone like Germany actively decides to screw them over.

No Benelux country will leave EU.

 

[Rugi]

Im not even remotely qualified to talk about this but thats never stopped me before so...

Reasons why I think brexit happened:

Immigration: Immigration isnt a problem as long as its net. As far as I can tell in Great Britian its not even remotely net. The people that leave Britian do not even remotely correspond with the amount that come into Britian. I dont know if this is a problem or not but I've heard British people talking about it a lot. I imagine that U.K brexitting is going to give them better control of who and who doesn't enter their country.

Nation Pride: Britian was not a founding member of the EU and to this day they refer to it as the 'continent" in a lot of places that I've looked at. An advanced civilization evolving on an island close to a bunch of big powerful countries seems to lead to strong feeling of seperation and uniquness. Japan is the only other example that comes to mind. I seriously doubt many people would consider themselves EU citizens in Britian.

I have yet to research statistics of this but initial results seem bad with a drop in the pound in the brexit being associated with many of Britian's more "disdainful politician" I have to be honest I don't know what I would've voted in a situation like this. I disagree with the EU in a few respects but from an outsiders point of view it seems to be working quite well.

To all Brits who are crapping themselves at the thought I personally suggest not to worry. Iceland, Switzerland and Norway aren't part of EU and don't seem to be doing too badly. Trade agreements will probably be established sooner or later anyways

This post has almost no research put into it and is just a spew of thoughts so I'll write something better on what I think once I properly research all this.

 

[Aladyyn]

Also props to Cameron for having the guts to resign. Wish more politicians were like that.

 

[Cresselia~~]

Also props to Cameron for having the guts to resign. Wish more politicians were like that.

You aren't even British
You are trolling and making fun of people because you are not being affected in this disaster at all.

Meanwhile, wr British people have a lot to worry.

 

[Sapientia]

Figures.

EU has been going down a steep slope ever since Treaty of Lisbon and nothing's been done about it for 7 years. What makes you thing a significant change is possible, especially with people like Juncker at the helm?

How can we make a change by leaving and therefore leaving all the power to others? And yes we do and will need Europe.
Why are the problems we are facing right now caused my the EU? I can't really connect social problems, refugees, etc with the EU. But maybe you can help me with that. Right now people who lost during globalization believe politicians who tell them that it's all the fault of EU and foreigeners. Yes, this Syran refugees are clearly the winners of globalization who try to fuck over me.

No, it's not something that has to be done, you can't just force sovereign countries to do what you want, that is the exact fucking problem with the Union. Sure, there are some upsides but that doesn't mean we should take all the shit that comes with it as well.

We need to think of Europe more as one country rather than multiple countries working together. People in Berlin also don't say "Why do we have to take refugees that arrive in Rosenheim? The Bavarians shouldn't tell us what to do". Of course we can go back to the middle age with everyone cooking their own soup, but who benefits from that? That's the whole point of a Union. But we also need stuff like european welfare and uniformed taxes, to avoid things like the Greece disaster in the future.

 

[Billy the Uncle]

You're an "EU citizen"? Really?

I hope EU crumbles and dies so something better can rise from its ashes.

Yeah, really. I feel like that, at least.

I've heard the "I hope the EU dies so something else can happen" thing many times, but no suggestion, however vague ones, on what this something else can be.

Also, you say that you can't force sovereign nations to do things. In this case, only two scenarios are possible: no union of any kind, or a giant European nation that is sovereign all over Europe. I just can't see any other possibility.

 

[Aladyyn]

You aren't even British
You are trolling and making fun of people because you are not being affected in this disaster at all.

Meanwhile, wr British people have a lot to worry.

It's not a disaster and it does affect me as a citizen of a country that is a member of the EU. I'd be happy for the Brits no matter which way the voting would have gone.

And yes, calling it a "disaster" is a huge overreaction.

How can we make a change by leaving and therefore leaving all the power to others? And yes we do and will need Europe.
Why are the problems we are facing right now caused my the EU? I can't really connect social problems, refugees, etc with the EU. But maybe you can help me with that. Right now people who lost during globalization believe politicians who tell them that it's all the fault of EU and foreigeners. Yes, this Syran refugees are clearly the winners of globalization who try to fuck over me.




We need to think of Europe more as one country rather than multiple countries working together. People in Berlin also don't say "Why do we have to take refugees that arrive in Rosenheim? The Bavarians shouldn't tell us what to do". Of course we can go back to the middle age with everyone cooking their own soup, but who benefits from that? That's the whole point of a Union. But we also need stuff like european welfare and uniformed taxes, to avoid things like the Greece disaster in the future.

You keep talking social issues etc but I don't really have an issue with that. My issue is with taking away the sovereignity of my country and people that I didn't/couldn't vote for having power over it. Also I'm literally barfing at the bolded. But as a German you wouldn't understand that because your country always wanted to have control over others.

 

[Aladyyn]

Yeah, really. I feel like that, at least.

I've heard the "I hope the EU dies so something else can happen" thing many times, but no suggestion, however vague ones, on what this something else can be.

Also, you say that you can't force sovereign nations to do things. In this case, only two scenarios are possible: no union of any kind, or a giant European nation that is sovereign all over Europe. I just can't see any other possibility.

Or maybe, you know, an economic union of sovereign countries like it was supposed to be? We don't need to be federalized.

 

[Sapientia]

You keep talking social issues etc but I don't really have an issue with that. My issue is with taking away the sovereignity of my country and people that I didn't/couldn't vote for having power over it. Also I'm literally barfing at the bolded. But as a German you wouldn't understand that because your country always wanted to have control over others.

Of course it's also necessary to shift power away from the european council to the european parliament in order to "democratize" the EU. Cooperation does not mean having control over others.

Back the days people also said Germany doesn't need to be federalized, one million single kingdoms are good enough. It still happened and everyone profited.

 

[Aladyyn]

Why do we even need a huge separate political entity like that? If we want singular outside politics, why does it need to be a part of EU when that will exclude numerous European countries? Why don't we go for a better system?

Europe is not Germany, even though it may look like it from your POV.

 

[Sapientia]

Why is it better to work with your neighbour?
I think I don't have to explain the economic advantages to you. I would also be better if it was normal for Germany to help the Greek or Spanish economy to recover instead of pussying around and making things even worse. Obviously if you want such a close cooperation the partners should have a say in each other's business.
Just like it's normal in Germany that Bavaria pays every year in order to support economic weaker regions in Germany it should be normal that strong european countries pay to help the weaker ones. Why are the taxes I pay used to help the people in Dresden, but not the ones in Athens? I don't have any connection to either of this cities, besides that Dresden happens to be part of the imaginary construction called "Bundesrepublik Deutschland" and Athens isn't.
I think we should get an equal standard of living in whole europe and fight problems like youth unemployment or immigration together as equal partners and not against each other with everyone having his own national interest in mind.

 

[Aladyyn]

What a lovely goal. But you need a new organization for that because we didn't sign up for it.

Also Germany really needs to drop this WWII complex already and let others do their thing for once imo.

 

[Sapientia]

What a lovely goal. But you need a new organization for that because we didn't sign up for it.

Also Germany really needs to drop this WWII complex already and let others do their thing for once imo.

If you followed the happenings in the past you can see that it is wanted to make the EU more and more a political and not just an economic union.

Also you need to drop your Germany obsession

 

[Aladyyn]

If you followed the happenings in the past you can see that it is wanted to make the EU more and more a political and not just an economic union.

Also you need to drop your Germany obsession

That is the exact fucking problem that I have with the EU and why I want my country to eventually follow the Brits. We didn't vote to join this version of EU. We didn't vote to give up our sovereignity piece by piece.

When Germany stops their power trip maybe. Germany is the driving force behind it all.

 

[Rowan]

It seems shady that the entirety of the UK voted on Scottish independence while the UK was free to decide its own independence from the EU.

didn't see if anyone corrected you on this, but only Scottish citizens voted on independence, we had no say. though it was a close vote at the time, so maybe Scottish people will be more inclined to leave the UK now and rejoin the EU...

I don't really know anything about economics and both leave and remain were saying that their choice would end up with us being better off economically. In reality I don't think anyone really knows yet... the pound might have taken an initial hit, but it's such a recent thing, who's to say it won't grow. Seems to be dependent on many factors not just leaving the EU

I voted remain, firstly for many reasons that Sapienta mentioned, and for other reasons, such as workers rights. The EU has done a lot for workers rights in this country, and I'd be concerned with a conservative government and the tendency towards privatisation that our government has whether we'd still have the same workers rights - of course we might do, nothing might change, we just don't know what's going to happen.

A huge reason Leave won was scaremongering about immigration from the likes of tabloid newspapers. We can't control immigration as part of Europe, and there's always the cliche lines such as 'immigrants are coming over here and taking our jobs etc...'

Essentially, no-one in this country is actually that educated about what the EU does. I'd be classed as a "middle class", "well-educated" young person, but I had no fucking clue what the EU does until this referendum came about, it's not something we get taught about in school or anything, so both campaigns were reduced to scaremongering and twisted facts, which the leave campaign were better at. It was easy for the leave campaign to say that we send £350 million a week to the EU without any benefits, because people aren't educated about what benefits we get from the EU, so it's easy to paint it as this restrictive power which takes money from us and tells us what to do. This mentality of "no-one should tell us what to do" swayed large amounts of people.

e: genuinely kinda scared as to what's going to happen now. also this pound hit, since I was planning on travelling round Europe this summer, it could end up being much more expensive :s

 

[Pyritie]

Or maybe, you know, an economic union of sovereign countries like it was supposed to be? We don't need to be federalized.

This is pretty much the main reason why I voted leave. I'm all for the economic advantages being part of the EU has, but I don't like the political direction the EU is going.

How can we make a change by leaving and therefore leaving all the power to others? And yes we do and will need Europe.

Because it gives the EU less credibility. It tarnishes its reputation. People will start seeing it less as "a thing we have to join or else" and "a thing we may or may not want to join". Switzerland recently said that in its current state they wouldn't want to join the EU.

We need to think of Europe more as one country rather than multiple countries working together.

No fuck off we already have one united states, we don't need another.

I've heard the "I hope the EU dies so something else can happen" thing many times, but no suggestion, however vague ones, on what this something else can be.

Also, you say that you can't force sovereign nations to do things. In this case, only two scenarios are possible: no union of any kind, or a giant European nation that is sovereign all over Europe. I just can't see any other possibility.

A union that lets countries trade with each other freely and still lets those same countries make their own decisions.

Also, there is something to be said about the value of cultural purism. That might sound like pure bigotry from the standpoint of a young country like Canada or the US-- but as a Japanese American living in Japan who treasures Japanese culture-- I can appreciate the sentiment. Britain is an old country, and more like Japan in that sense; with a strong heritage and tradition of sovereignty. Let's face it, Japan would be a very different country if 30% of the population became none-Japanese speaking Filipinos; the face and culture would necessarily change, and it would be a painful and uneasy transition. That's something I wouldn't want to see for MY ancestral country, but it's something that the native British have been dealing with to great frustration as of late. I can't simply write off their concerns as being closed-minded.

btw-- considering the US's history as part of the broader history in North America, not to mention its sheer size and and melting pot origin, I think totally differently about US immigration. But for countries like Britain or Japan, I'd say we're looking at much more grey moral issues when it comes to immigration vs native population and culture.

Also a good point. I've travelled around the world a lot and I love experiencing different cultures and values. Globalization goes completely against that, turning everything into a generic brown sameness. If you value cultural diversity, you need to also value nationalism, to some extent.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

I'm scottish and would happily vote for independence now. Maybe we can leave the economic suicide and racism for england and wales. Also feel for london who voted remain and have no way back in.

Jeremy corbyn is a cardigan wearing wank that didnt bother to educate his voters. He said before the result "don't blame me if we leave" , he has to shoulder a fair amount of this and will probably be forced out of leadership.

 

[Aladyyn]

I'm scottish and would happily vote for independence now. Maybe we can leave the economic suicide and racism for england and wales. Also feel for london who voted remain and have no way back in.

Jeremy corbyn is a cardigan wearing wank that didnt bother to educate his voters. He said before the result "don't blame me if we leave" , he has to shoulder a fair amount of this and will probably be forced out of leadership.

Please tell me more.

 

[Maestro Arena]

Under my point of view, Brexit happened because +65 years old people wished for that. Young people voted for remain, but demographics have more old people and that happened. Without counting economy, let's see what happens to Scotland and Northern Ireland. UK is really in danger of becoming the ''United Kingdom of England and Wales''.

I'm interested in particular in what will happen to Gibraltar.

EDIT: I understand Aladyyn posts since there is a lot of Eurosceptism in Czech Republic. Yet, Czechs aren't going to leave EU.

 

[apt-get]

This decision is a consequence of the increasingly popularity of the idea of "sovereign state" in a strict sense, which is incredibly anachronistic at this point in time. In the past 40 years we have had recognised quite a lot of rights that with that old mentality wouldn't have been possible, it is just a stupid and very expensive idea to go back and leave the EU.

I agree that at the current state the EU needs a lot of work, sure, but leaving is just a seemingly "simple" solution to a very complex problem that involves everybody. Not anything different from the walls that are discussed in Austria and Hungary, and even the one Trump proposed lol.

I am not going to delve into the macro-economy of all of this, since I am really not an expert, but this doesnt really look like a win for the people so I am just going to assume they aren't the (very) few that are going to benefit from this.

Happy for Scotland and Northern Ireland that voted for remain and might, finally, get out of the UK I guess, that is the kind of self affirmation we need now :)

Also as a side note the old people that overwhelmingly voted for this, compared to the young people, (iirc the proportion in favour of stay for under 40s was like 60%) will mostly be dead once the whole process is over so yeah good for them

There's no age-based stats, by the way. It's all based on old polls.

The vote is anonymous.

 

[Aladyyn]

Under my point of view, Brexit happened because +65 years old people wished for that. Young people voted for remain, but demographics have more old people and that happened. Without counting economy, let's see what happens to Scotland and Northern Ireland. UK is really in danger of becoming the ''United Kingdom of England and Wales''.

I'm interested in particular in what will happen to Gibraltar.

EDIT: I understand Aladyyn posts since there is a lot of Eurosceptism in Czech Republic. Yet, Czechs aren't going to leave EU.

Our government and president are decidedly pro-EU, so yea, fat chance in any foreseeable future. Lots of things can happen in the 1,5 years before the next elections though. I'm skeptical due to a lot of factors, mainly because a lot of the masses' euroskepticism comes from islamophobia, which is pretty pathetic and hurts the whole movement. Also we can't risk burning ANY bridged with Germany without having to heavily turn to Russia. There would have to be economic changes starting right now and going on for years before we can think about leaving imo.