Metagame Ultimate Z

I wouldn't call myself good in this meta by any stretch, but I'm going to drop my two cents based on what I saw playing the last two days. First, Kyurem-B and Tapu Koko are broken and highly centralizing. Kyurem-B has the ability to drop 200 BP Ice Type moves (250 after STAB) while also accumulating a speed boost that either blocks status (safeguard) or breaks sashes (hail). To add to this, Kyu-B also still carries Fusion Bolt to hit water types that would resist Subzero Slammer. This means that you can outspeed all slower scarfers while throwing around weight that is difficult to switch into.

Tapu Koko has access to a number of sets, based on if you want to go physical or special. Its access to its high speed tier, a strong physical gigavolt havoc or of any other type on special sets makes it incredibly difficult to play around. A wrong play regarding either of these mons often results in an immediate loss. Neither really has a switch in and both are incredibly common, acting as gatekeepers to what could be an otherwise diverse meta. For these reasons, I think both Kyurem-B and Tapu Koko are currently broken in the metagame.

Now for positivity:

Kingdra @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Draco Meteor
- Clear Smog

I've been running this Kingdra after seeing a similar Latias set give one of my teams some problems. Z Rain Dance both gives you plus one and doubles your original speed, guaranteeing that nothing will outspeed you. Clear Smog is there both to eliminate stat boosts and to give a more accurate move to pick off weakened fairies. Hydro Pump and Draco Meteor provide hard hitting STAB options. Fightinium Z off a Draco Meteor gives Kingdra a powerful special move that hits Kyu-B, Greninja, and Kartana for super effective damage while having no drawback for Kingdra.
 
Stall is not dead:

Toxapex @ Waterium Z
Ability: Merciless
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Baneful Bunker
- Stockpile
- Toxic

This is a cool idea but I'm not sold on the set itself. I've been running a Snorlax set based on it to pretty good success though.

Snorlax @ Normalium Z
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 200 Def / 52 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Whirlwind
- Stockpile
- Giga Impact

Immunity prevents lax from getting worn down by toxic, z-stockpile allows Snorlax to boost up on anything that can't OHKO it and stay in tip-top shape. Z-Whirlwind boosts sp-def and phases out things like GonZ that might try to match you boost for boost. Z-Curse boosts defence past the stockpile limit and gives a handy +2 Attack. I may switch the Z-Crystal to something that doesn't leave it hard walled by ghost types, but other than that this sets been doin' wonders.

Also yeah, this meta is... kind of exhausting already. It's not unplayable but it'd benefit from losing Tapu-koko, Kyu-B and BB-Greninja IMO. Nothing within Gren or Tapu's speed tier hits nearly as hard as either of them, whereas Kyurem is just a monster.
 
Y'know, banning all this stuff like Kyurem-Black and Tapu Koko is fine and all, but there is one culprit nobody seems to be talking about...

View attachment 89179

Wanna know why this meta has already become stale and exhausting after just a few days of being out? Well, here's a big reason, that being not just Happy Hour, but every omni-boosting z-move.

Look at me in the eye and answer this question. Why are these allowed? No, really, why are they? I don't have time to write a super long post, but here's where I stand:

Omni-boosters outclass every other offensive Z-move. Because why run something cool like Z-Grassy Terrain AOP Bulu when you can just take out Porygon-Z or Greninja and just spam the move that gives you Ancient Power boosts every turn.?

The boosts they give are insane. Not only do your offenses get huge boosts, but your defenses are also fortified, making revenge killing difficult, if not impossible in some cases. So no, frailty is not an argument.

Omni-boosting makes the meta un-fun and stale. Every match, that is all it is. Z-Happy Hour! Z-Celebrate! Z-Conversion! It's just so tiring after a while. Isn't the point of OMs to allow for new, fun, creative options by bending the established rules?

While I am not against a Kyurem-Black/Koko ban (I support them), I think we should also seriously take a look at the omni-boosting cancer. If you don't want to ban them outright, then perhaps we could do an omni-boost clause, restricted how many omni-boosters one can have?
Celebrate, Happy Hour and Hold Hands have been quickbanned.

I'd like to see how the meta develops for a couple days as well as hear more opinions about Kyurem-Black before deciding on its fate.



These moves are now banned if used with a Z-Crystal, as part of the Evasion Clause.
fam
 
Conversion exists.

Something like this:



Porygon-Z @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Hyper Beam
- Conversion 2
- Conversion

is very hard to stop if it gets 1 or 2 Z-Conversions.

example: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-640413003 (I misplayed on tornadus, should've z-conversion 2 to live raichu's move but w/e
 
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Am I fucking stupid? lmao

Also here's some cool sets

Tapu Bulu @ Fightinium Z/Grassium Z/Fairium Z
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Safeguard
- Swords Dance
- Wood Hammer
- Giga Impact

Looks like a pretty fun sweeper, especially now that omni-boosting is gone (except for pz)

Volcanion @ Grassium Z
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Haze

Struggling with rain? If so, this looks pretty rad. Sure, Omastar could cause problems, but those run Hydro Vortex most of the time anyway.

Tapu Lele @ Psychium Z/Fightinium Z
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Beam
- Safeguard
- Moonblast/Calm Mind
- Focus Blast/Psychic

Even scarier than Tapu Bulu, but harder to set up.

Durant @ Steelium Z
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hone Claws
- Iron Head
- X-Scissor
- Superpower

Really the closest thing to a Kyurem-Black counter atm. Besides that, Hustle with infinite z-moves looks scurry. Good speed tier too.
 
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So, there are three things at this point that I'm particularly concerned about.

1. Tapu Koko - It's strong enough to KO most of the metagame, while outspeeding the unboosted meta. And that's before it sets up with Screech (what, are you using Mirror Move? Screech lets you cut down Stockpile and Unaware, and it's not like Tapu Koko needs more than +1 to threaten switch-ins anyways). Also, it gets U-Turn, in case you thought that switching in your counter would give you the upper hand. Unless I play stupidly, it puts in hella work in every match. Most offensive mons just can't handle this, especially when Choice Scarf and the Mega Evos that outspeed it both come at such a big opportunity cost.

Here's the set I'm using. Z-Hyper Beam puts in work, it means Koko can plow through shit like Kartana and work around miscellaneous Defense boosts. I've never felt the need to change this set up, but if I did, it would be to swap in Electrium Z to break some fat Fairy resists that Wild Charge doesn't.
Tapu Koko @ Fairium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Wild Charge
- U-Turn
- Hyper Beam
- Screech
2. Stockpile - Holy fuck, this is annoying. Can't OHKO? Fuck you. Z-Stockpile doubles the "I need to do this much damage to not be walled by that mon" threshold, and that's before they start accumulating boosts. You have Toxic? Cool, unless it's Toxapex or Alolan Muk (or, in theory, Snorlax). You can set up alongside it? Fine, unless it's Quagsire, or it's Alolan Muk/Snorlax with Curse. Virtually anything else is probably not going to do anything to it. I'm not sure I need to elaborate, I imagine everybody who's played a decent chunk of the meta has encountered this and found it really irritating.

3. Clefable - What, pray tell, are you supposed to do about this?
Clefable @ Fairium Z
Ability: Unaware
EVs: idk
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Cosmic Power
- Aromatherapy
- Stored Power
Can't out-boost it. Can't Taunt or Encore it. Status gets healed. Unaware gets Stored Power'd. Nothing walls it if it sits in long enough. You have to break it right fucking meow, so that means a really powerful STAB Z-move. Okay. So, if you have the audacity to have a mon without such a move and leave it in long enough to use a move, Clefable still has the opportunity to switch in and set up while you switch out, at which point that strong STAB move is only gonna matter if it's, like... Acid Downpour or Corkscrew Crash, or maybe Koko's Gigavolt Havoc but Koko's busted too. On the physical side, mind you, because Z-Cosmic Power accumulates SpD boosts at 2 a pop. Haze, I suppose, lets you PP stall it, but not actually break it down, or even weaken it to make it less of a threat later. Its solitary weak point, as near as I can tell, is that Aromatherapy has 8 PP, so in theory it could be drained of that. But in my experience, it doesn't need to use Z-Aromatherapy enough for this to be practical.

I could take KyuB or leave it, but maybe I'm just overprepared. IDK.
 
It will be a Z-Move according to your Z-Crystal. The power is based on the base power of the move that Nature Power would normally trigger (Tri-Attack, Thunderbolt etc).
The thing with Whimsicott is, that it has priority Z-Nature Power.

I run this, too, and it is a very good revenge killer to things such as Tapu Koko, boosted Kyurem-B, as it can fire off priority-STAB-Twinkle-Tackles when equipped with a Fairium-Z.
 
Hey all, I have stopped by to share some sets I have found to be useful.



Landorus-Therian @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Rock Polish

Just like it is in OU tier, Landorus-T is one of the best Stealth Rock users due to it being able to pressure Defog users like Mega Scizor and others by repeatedly using Supersonic Skystrike. It is also an emergency switch-in to Tapu Koko that does not carry Ice moves which I find to be uncommon due to prevalence of Z-Mirror Move and stuff. Rock Polish is there for breaking havoc early game or late-game cleaning. OHKOing Kyurem-B with Supersonic Skystrike after Stealth Rock is such a thrill.




Cloyster @ Electrium Z / Groudium Z
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast / Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Shell Smash

Cloyster is my most-used spinner in AG teams, and it is p much the same in Ultimate Z where every single team of mine are hyperoffense. It forces hazard setters like Landorus-T, Shuckle, and others to think twice before pressing Stealth Rock or Spikes because Cloyster can boost up and KO next couple 'mons. Electrium Z is aimed at other Water-types (mostly for Tapu Fini and Azumarill), and Groudium Z is a secondary option if one's team doesn't have solid answers for Steel-types. Other selling points of Cloyster are being a sweeper that can get past Mimikyu (which is not named Kyurem-B) and being able to clear away hazards while forcing switches against the likes of Zygarde.




Volcarona @ Groundium Z / Grassium Z
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast / Bug Buzz
- Fiery Dance
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Quiver Dance

Besides the likes of Chansey, the only thing that is able to stop Volcarona after some boosts are Heatran and Toxapex, and they are both taken out by boosted Tectonic Rage. Tapu Fini, Quagsire, and other Water-types can be dealt using Grassium Z. Volcarona has very limited counterplay in OU due to it becoming progrssively harder to stop, and it is pretty much the same here. As long as you keep Stealth Rock off the field, Volcarona should do its job.


--


Regarding Drampa's quoting post... yeh I guess not being able to spam Z-moves will kinda defeat the purpose of the metagame but things were too chaotic... and as I said I wrote that essay because I do care about what is going on in Ultimate Z.

As of now, I will try being cooperative as much as possible with what others say. But threats like Kyurem-B and possibly Tapu Koko will have to go.
 
Hey guys, been looking into a few interesting sets that can come in handy vs the meta!
Trevenant @ Firium z
Ability: Frisk
248Hp/8Atk/252Spd
- forest's curse
- horn leech
- wood hammer
- spite

This pokemon is actually a lot better than some might give it credit for. Sure it may be slightly outclassed by gourgeist, but it can still get the job done. Plus this mon puts out more damage. Z-Forest's curse, if you don't know, boosts all your stats at the same time. Now I know everyone has a thing against omniboosting, but I think trevenant is but more balanced the Pory-z. After all it has a bad defensive typing plus mediocre stats. Horn leech is for recovery, while wood hammer is specifically for the Firium z. Firium z into wood hammer after a forest's curse HURTS, A LOT; Especially if you were already weak to it. Meanwhile Z-Spite fully heals you. this mon can effectively wall tapu koko as well as a few other threats and set up on them effectively before sweeping, so think this passes.

kartana @ Waterium z/Groundium z
Ability: Beast Boost
252Atk/4Def/252Spe
- Leaf Blade
- Smart Strike
- Swords Dance/Defog
- Sacred Sword
Defog is just there cause I don't have it on anything else, otherwise swords dance is the play. With Waterium z, this pokemon can gain some seriously dangerous coverage against threats such as lando, talonflame and volcarona. An alternative groundium z, which while not accounting for as many direct threats to itself, can allow it to handle some other types very well, such as steel types sacred sword can't hit too well like magearna and fire types

Still looking into a few more, and I would like some feedback to this post please!
 
I've really enjoyed this meta. Fast pace, new concepts to learn and very easy to succeed without relying on chance. I've stuck with one team and i've found found a few stand out mons that I haven't seen anywhere else, just swapping them out for new ideas.

Dragonite @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage (I thought the coverage would be useful, but giga impact makes it so your Z move 1 HKOs landorus at neutral)
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake

Dragonite with multi-scale lives most z moves and still has 1/4 hp to survive priority. With one DD, it outspeeds every non-scarf mon (Besides electrode/ninjask/accelgor-which are underused) and can KO every threat. This thing can straight up sweep teams from turn one. Put stealth rocks up, bust mimikyu's disguise and you have an easy win. It's the most underrated mon of this meta. I haven't seen a single dragonite. I also haven't seen a single team that wants to deal with it.


Steelix @ Steelium Z
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Atk / 220 Def
Impish Nature
- Psych Up
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion / Earthquake

Someone mentioned this before me. Great physical wall for things like kyreum or z-splash mimikyu, guaranteed rocks or toxic (always press Z for the def boost), can easily toxic stall with Z-psych up/sturdy combination. Just a solid mon, probably deserves more use and i see more of these the higher up the ladder i am.


Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Giga Impact
- U-turn
- Hyper Beam
- Roar (Filler move)

Koko is not broken. But no one really counters it well. For some reason ground types are underused (Even though Steelix is great and Hippowdon can use the stockpile/curse/whirlind/attack set to great success) and the mons that speed tie or outspeed are never used (Accelgor with groundium Z/bug buzz/final gambit/filler puts in a lot of work and outspeeds practically everything - even the +1 mons). That said... mixed Electrium Z blows through teams and is all you need. Coverage is barely useful, you can't 1HKO it? you switch and wait for Koko's next victim. Put up stealth rocks and a resist no longer exists.


Kartana @ Steelium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Giga Impact
- Leaf Blade
- Laser Focus / sacred sword
- Defog

Why use set up or straight power, when you can have both in one? Hit mons with the highest base power stab move, on the highest attack mon, with a speed tier that can't be dismissed and then boosts practically everytime you do this. It gets a kill everytime you bring it in. The only counter is heatran, which you don't see much and after a Steelium Z, it does not live a sacred sword. Basically as long as you outspeed, you win. Defog is kinda essential because webs are broken and this mons works great as a lead against shuckles or spore smeargles.


Walrein @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD (or 252 Def) dependant on your team
Calm Nature
- Roar
- Stockpile
- Block / curse
- Super Fang

Getting into the replaceable section of the team.... another stockpile mon. Stockpile is another broken move, probably better on snorlax and hippowdon, But i like using different mons. Walrein counters greninja, manaphy and kyreum to an extent (Still lives fusion bolt, and you can stall it reasonably). But for this set i liked the idea of block/super fang, it's kind of just a troll, but fits well into this team to wear down threats for late sweeps. I know roar seems counter-intuitive, but when everything has set up, you don't want to give them that option.


Aerodactyl @ Rockium Z
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Hone Claws
- Tailwind
- Aqua Tail

Probably the next mon to be off the team, mainly here for its speed tier. Rockium Z is such a great move. Remove stone edge misses and double its power, all of a sudden you have one of the best offensive moves in the game. There's practically no fighting types with flyium Z everywhere and the ground types that want to switch in can generally be picked off with aqua tail. Speed tying with Koko, and beating kyreum, as well as normal greninja. Aero has decent responses to the primary threats of Ultimate Z, as well as set up for the stall based mons. Mega Aero might be more viable though


The meta is largely unexplored in terms of options. You see the same mons over and over. Not because they are unbeatable, but because they are reliable or obvious abusers. There's not enough people playing to show the normal level of creativity. I guess it's unpopular to most people because everything seems so overpowered...
 
Hey all, I have stopped by to share some sets I have found to be useful.



Landorus-Therian @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Rock Polish

Just like it is in OU tier, Landorus-T is one of the best Stealth Rock users due to it being able to pressure Defog users like Mega Scizor and others by repeatedly using Supersonic Skystrike. It is also an emergency switch-in to Tapu Koko that does not carry Ice moves which I find to be uncommon due to prevalence of Z-Mirror Move and stuff. Rock Polish is there for breaking havoc early game or late-game cleaning. OHKOing Kyurem-B with Supersonic Skystrike after Stealth Rock is such a thrill.




Cloyster @ Electrium Z / Groudium Z
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast / Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Shell Smash

Cloyster is my most-used spinner in AG teams, and it is p much the same in Ultimate Z where every single team of mine are hyperoffense. It forces hazard setters like Landorus-T, Shuckle, and others to think twice before pressing Stealth Rock or Spikes because Cloyster can boost up and KO next couple 'mons. Electrium Z is aimed at other Water-types (mostly for Tapu Fini and Azumarill), and Groudium Z is a secondary option if one's team doesn't have solid answers for Steel-types. Other selling points of Cloyster are being a sweeper that can get past Mimikyu (which is not named Kyurem-B) and being able to clear away hazards while forcing switches against the likes of Zygarde.




Volcarona @ Groundium Z / Grassium Z
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast / Bug Buzz
- Fiery Dance
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Quiver Dance

Besides the likes of Chansey, the only thing that is able to stop Volcarona after some boosts are Heatran and Toxapex, and they are both taken out by boosted Tectonic Rage. Tapu Fini, Quagsire, and other Water-types can be dealt using Grassium Z. Volcarona has very limited counterplay in OU due to it becoming progrssively harder to stop, and it is pretty much the same here. As long as you keep Stealth Rock off the field, Volcarona should do its job.


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Regarding Drampa's quoting post... yeh I guess not being able to spam Z-moves will kinda defeat the purpose of the metagame but things were too chaotic... and as I said I wrote that essay because I do care about what is going on in Ultimate Z.

As of now, I will try being cooperative as much as possible with what others say. But threats like Kyurem-B and possibly Tapu Koko will have to go.
Why are you running rock blast on cloyster? You'd much rather have a stronger z move imo. Not objecting to having one multi-hit move, icicle spear is solid, but having 2 is just bad imo
 
Why are you running rock blast on cloyster? You'd much rather have a stronger z move imo. Not objecting to having one multi-hit move, icicle spear is solid, but having 2 is just bad imo
Rock Blast lets you OHKO Kyurem-B reliably after the boost.

I mean, Icicle Spear is p close to getting OHKO but

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 365-435 (93.3 - 111.2%) -- approx. 75% chance to OHKO

Getting that low roll with 25% will cause Cloyster to get hit by Fusion Bolt and fainting so yah.

It's not like Razor Shell / Poison Jab / Signal Beam and other stuff will do better job anyway. Also Rock Blast lets you safely OHKO Heatran after the boost if Groudium Z is not opted for.

Also Cloyster's Sp.atk isn't that great because it can't afford to shift its EV's to Sp.Atk when it has to maxmize its attack to get OHKO's on most threats of the meta and maximize its Z-move power.
 
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 385-453 (98.4 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Literally 87.5% vs 90%, and a 200 bp z move has a lot more utility than rock blast.
 

drampa's grandpa

formerly The Ruins of Alpha
I'm honestly not sure why Hold Hands was banned, and this sentiment seems to be echoed among many in the OM room. The best pokemon that get it are Charizard, Raichu-A, and Vivillon. Hardly banworthy threats.

On the other hand Conversion (or just PZ), Stockpile, Kyu-B, and Koko look very banworthy.

I'm lazy but I can and am willing to elaborate on anything here, just let me know, here, on my profile, in the om room, finding me irl (not really don't do that last one plz)
 
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 385-453 (98.4 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Literally 87.5% vs 90%, and a 200 bp z move has a lot more utility than rock blast.
Choosing Breakneck Blitz over Electrium Z leaves you unable to OHKO Tapu Fini and Azumarill.

And Normalium Z has no advantage over Groudium Z because the latter actually lets you lure Steel-types while Breakneck Blitz doesn't stand a chance.

--

I'm honestly not sure why Hold Hands was banned, and this sentiment seems to be echoed among many in the OM room. The best pokemon that get it are Charizard, Raichu-A, and Vivillon. Hardly banworthy threats.

On the other hand Conversion (or just PZ), Stockpile, Kyu-B, and Koko look very banworthy.

I'm lazy but I can and am willing to elaborate on anything here, just let me know, here, on my profile, in the om room, finding me irl (not really don't do that last one plz)
I wanna ask why Celebrate / Happy Hour / Hold Hands too when stuff like Conversion / Mirror Move are going more rampant.

Yes I agree Kyurem-B is banworthy and there should be a suspect soon imo
 
Not saying you should use normalium z, but it was just a calc to show the damage roll. You can replace breakneck blitz with anything that hits kyub neutrally or se lol, it was just easier in the calc since no ground z moves have 200 bp in standard.
e: Hold Hands definitely deserves an unban, but happy hour and celebrate are broken lol
 
Not saying you should use normalium z, but it was just a calc to show the damage roll. You can replace breakneck blitz with anything that hits kyub neutrally or se lol, it was just easier in the calc since no ground z moves have 200 bp in standard.
e: Hold Hands definitely deserves an unban, but happy hour and celebrate are broken lol
You initially questioned about usage of Rock Blast and now its about Normalium Z? ....

My whole point was, that running Rock Blast lets Cloyster run a Z-crystal that is dedicated to hit one of its checks which would otherwise be impossible to surmount.

Also Hold Hands, Happy Hour, and Celebrate have the same Z-effect and there is no reason to unban some of them while leaving the rest banned.

--

Adding this comment so this won't end up as a quoting post:

Guys, I know my essay was kinda "triggered" but there are some stuff that has to go; Kyurem-B 2HKOs the entire meta with Subzero Slammer while Fusion Bolt and Earth Power narrows its checks even worse, and is one of the only sweepers that Mimikyu can't afford to revenge kill. Also Tapu Koko, just so you guys know, has the most threatening speed tier with an access to Z-Mirror Move which makes it progressively harder to stop.
 
You initially questioned about usage of Rock Blast and now its about Normalium Z? ....

My whole point was, that running Rock Blast lets Cloyster run a Z-crystal that is dedicated to hit one of its checks which would otherwise be impossible to surmount.

Also Hold Hands, Happy Hour, and Celebrate have the same Z-effect and there is no reason to unban some of them while leaving the rest banned.

--

Adding this comment so this won't end up as a quoting post:

Guys, I know my essay was kinda "triggered" but there are some stuff that has to go; Kyurem-B 2HKOs the entire meta with Subzero Slammer while Fusion Bolt and Earth Power narrows its checks even worse, and is one of the only sweepers that Mimikyu can't afford to revenge kill. Also Tapu Koko, just so you guys know, has the most threatening speed tier with an access to Z-Mirror Move which makes it progressively harder to stop.
There is definitely reason to unban hold hands. Happy Hour and Celebrate have abusers like Jirachi, Greninja, and Victini. Hold hands has Raichu-A, which won't even be viable once koko gets banned, charizard and vivillion, which are not and never will be viable. And it isn't about normalium z. Normalium z is not viable. You are the one that said "And Normalium Z has no advantage over Groudium Z because the latter actually lets you lure Steel-types while Breakneck Blitz doesn't stand a chance," while that doesn't matter at all. Breakneck Blitz is basically an "insert z move type here" move. My point was, unless you're running something like electrium or waterium, which kyub resists, you might as well just use a more powerful z move, i.e. explosion, over rock blast.
 
There is definitely reason to unban hold hands. Happy Hour and Celebrate have abusers like Jirachi, Greninja, and Victini. Hold hands has Raichu-A, which won't even be viable once koko gets banned, charizard and vivillion, which are not and never will be viable. And it isn't about normalium z. Normalium z is not viable. You are the one that said "And Normalium Z has no advantage over Groudium Z because the latter actually lets you lure Steel-types while Breakneck Blitz doesn't stand a chance," while that doesn't matter at all. Breakneck Blitz is basically an "insert z move type here" move. My point was, unless you're running something like electrium or waterium, which kyub resists, you might as well just use a more powerful z move, i.e. explosion, over rock blast.
Just because one can say "Banning this move won't make some pokemon viable" doesn't mean we can unban moves that are inherently unhealthy for the metagame; OU didn't leave Arena Trap unbanned because 'Arena Trap - less Dugtrio will be unviable', and they didn't leave Baton Pass unbanned because 'Scoplipede and Necrozma will be unviable'. At least in my book, that is not how banning things work. Even if banning something causes collateral damage to other stuff in the metagame, like Raichu-A, in your case, should be banned if they make the metagame not healthy. That is not to mention Raichu-A is not that viable in the first place; better Elecric-types exist. Xurkitree needs 0 team support to set up using Z-Hypnosis and sweep, and Tapu Koko can run Electrium Z set to pressure unprepared teams, use Fairium Z or Icium Z to lure and punish its checks, or do late game cleaning using Z-Mirrow Move all by itself unlike Raichu-A which needs Tapu Koko to reach good Speed tier for limited number of turns, while it is significantly weaker than aformentioned Electric-types without setting up Nasty Plot which gives opponent a free turn to hit back or setup along.

Also what was the point of using Normalium Z set? Yes, I said "And Normalium Z has no advantage over Groudium Z because the latter actually lets you lure Steel-types while Breakneck Blitz doesn't stand a chance" because you showed Normalium Z calcs lol, what else I use as a responce when you never clarified that was to show damage of Z-move that hits Kyurem-B neutrally? And this is about my 3rd time mentioning Rock Blast frees Cloyster a moveslot to run a powerful Z-move to get past its checks as it is clearly shown here. If I dropped Rock Blast and got something like, what, Dragonium Z / Steelium Z / Fightium Z, Cloyster will be revenge killed by Tapu Fini, walled by Toxapex, rare Gyarados, and that will result in Cloyster having shallower movepool and thus widening the range of counterplay.

So why don't you just accept the fact that forgoing Rock Blast lets Cloyster get a Z-crystal that is dedicated to hit only one target (Kyurem-B) supereffectively but misses out on tons of checks out there, and stop posting these minor-detailed questions that can be answered in personal profiles and PM's, and just move on from this pointless discussion that has obvious outcomes?
 
So uh
wow
just wow.
I'm surprised their isn't any Toxapex sets.. For those who don't know, say hi to stall god toxapex.

Toxapex @ Icium Z
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Baneful Bunker
- Toxic/Toxic Spikes
- Scald
I always hated how baneful bunker has to make contact to poison players, so I wanted to add toxic as a move for special attackers like Magneara, or pokemon with no contact-type moves like Mimikyu. Well, sometimes Mimikyu has shadow claw, but your get what I'm saying.

But, Z-haze, restores back to HP 100%. So, 48 times of full health.. Its broken.

Not to mention, with Z-haze, you don't have to worry about the move recover.
100% hp back, now that, is good.

I'm not going into set details, just letting you all know, z-haze is a thing.
 
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