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Unconventional sun team

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Dark Fallen Angel, Jan 2, 2013.

  1. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    799
    I've created this team on the Genesect era, after some people kept saying that Rotom-H was bad, so I created this team based on Rotom-H. It was doing fairly well to be honest, but I need a rate to this team, because I don't know anymore if there's something that needs to be changed, for example.

    Overview:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    The team:

    [​IMG]

    Terrakion @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge

    One may question why I use this instead of Dugtrio. Well, Terrakion trades the capatibility of trapping its opponents, for more power, bulk, and better STABs. Not to mention that Terrakion is fairly versatile, and does not limit itself to just trapping its opponents, and then becomming a waste of moveslot. I've questioning these days why sun teams don't pack Fighting-type Pokémon to deal with the Rock-type attacks that they fear so much. Aditionally, Fighting-types are extremely useful to deal with Heatran, the only Steel-type that don't fear Fire attacks, and thus is a problem for sun teams.

    Stealth Rock and Focus Sash were chosen because I don't really have any other, more reliable way to setup them. Swords Dance is there to bluff a SubSalac set, and Terrakion becomes my backup sweeper if Venusaur dies. The other moves are there for obvious reasons.

    The reason why I don't use Taunt to deal with Deoxys-D, is because Xatu is already capable of countering Deoxys-D unless it use the rare offensive set with Thunder, which is not only a rare set as I said, but Thunder becomes 50% accurate on sunlight.

    [​IMG]

    Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Iron Head
    - Ice Punch
    - U-turn
    - ThunderPunch

    This team was created on Genesect's era, so it's not hard to guess which Pokémon occupied this slot. However, since Genesect was banned, I had to choose something thac could come close to its Scarf set. Jirachi was the answer. Jirachi cannot boast the same level of power that Genesect had, but he makes up for that by being "a little" faster (1 extra point on speed may not mean much until you realize that it can speed tie with Naive/Jolly Salamence instead of always being outsped by him). The reason why I don't use Fire Punch is because my team has no problems with Steel-types, and to me, revenge killing Dragons and Gyarados is much more important. There are very few things that I want to revenge kill with a Fire-type attack, but much more that I want to revenge kill with Ice- or Electric-type attacks; in addition, the lack of U-Turn sometimes was biting my ass, so I've decided to forgo Fire Punch for U-Turn. That's why I've chosen Ice Punch and ThunderPunch as coverage moves. Jirachi is also my best check to Tornadus-T.

    [​IMG]

    Ninetales (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 136 HP / 252 SAtk / 120 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Sunny Day
    - Roar
    - Fire Blast
    - Will-O-Wisp

    And there's Ninetales, the essential piece of any sun team, despite being a rather lackluster Pokémon. This EV spread and set were the old Sunny Day set from BW1 (when Ninetales' analysis wasn't updated), except that I am using Roar instead of Sunny Day, to surprise Pokémon expecting to use Ninetales as a setup fodder. Fire Blast is also chosen instead of Flamethrower for the extra power.

    [​IMG]

    Venusaur (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Growth
    - Giga Drain
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Every sun team should pack a Chlorophyll sweeper, and this team is no exception. Venusaur is my choice because of its amazing typing and coverage. For me, the best set that it can use is a Growth set, with Sludge Bomb instead of Sleep Powder. Thogether, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb and Hidden Power Fire give coverage on almost every relevant threat, except Heatran, which can be dealt with by its teammates, like Terrakion and Rotom-H. The reason why I chose a Timid nature is to outspeed Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Keldeo, and +2 Cloyster. These Pokémon were very dangerous to my team. The extra power is not needed most of time, although there were times that I missed out an OHKO because of the lack of a Modest nature. Still, on my opinion, the benefits of a Timid nature far outweights the benefits of a Modest.

    [​IMG]

    Xatu (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - U-turn
    - Toxic
    - Roost
    - Heat Wave

    Xatu is my way to deal with hazard setters. It is capable of countering every one of them except Tyranitar, which can be dealt with by using Terrakion. Xatu also forms a VoltTurn core with Jirachi and Rotom-H. Also, Xatu is a valuable stallbreaker thanks to its combination of Magic Bounce which reflects status, Toxic and Roost, which lets me stall out even the pink blobs. Heat Wave is chosen over Psychic because most hazard setters are weak to Fire, not to Psychic, although the lack of Psychic was hurting a lot against Tentacruel. Still, Rotom-H and Venusaur are capable of dealing with Tentacruel fairly well.

    [​IMG]

    Rotom-H @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Volt Switch
    - Overheat
    - Thunderbolt
    - Trick

    The main reason why I created this team. Rotom-H looks like if it was outclassed by Heatran, until you realize that Rotom-H can deal with bulky Water-types much better (instead of an un-STABed Hidden Power Grass, Rotom-H has two super-effective STABs against bulky Water-types, they are Volt Switch and Thunderbolt), has Volt Switch to mantain momentum (it's no U-Turn, but it's much better than nothing), has a useful secondary STAB (Steel is an extremely helpful type defensively, but pure garbage offensively), Trick to deal with the pink blobs, and more importantly, thanks to Levitate, Dugtrio does not threat him.

    Overheat is extremely powerful when backed by sun, and is capable of 2HKOing or OHKOing even Pokémon that resist it. Also, thanks to Volt Switch and Thunderbolt, bulky Water-types must think twice about coming in to tank Overheat. This is especially true for Politoed; I can dent most sets with Volt Switch to the point that they are very vulnerable to lose the weather war. Thunderbolt is chosen because Rotom-H doesn't really need a coverage move on that slot, thanks to Overheat's power under sun. The extra power is sometimes helpful when dealing with SubGyarados and some other bulky Water-type that would not be killed by Volt Switch.

    Threats to the team:

    As of now:
    • [​IMG] <-- If it has Yache Berry, I must generally lose one or two Pokémon to take down this thing, especially if it has Substitute.
    • [​IMG] <-- The closest thing that I have to a counter to this thing is Jirachi, and even then, he must be very careful about Hidden Power Fire. Thankfully, CM variants are not hard to deal with.
    • [​IMG] <-- Rock Polish special variants can be difficult to deal with if my Rotom-H died.

    Final thougths:

    I've created this team with one thing on mind: using Pokémon that people don't even mind of using on sun teams, that would be very useful otherwise. I want to adapt this team to the OU suspect to kick some Tornadus-T asses, and thus I need a review for this team.
  2. Mr. Green

    Mr. Green

    Joined:
    May 14, 2011
    Messages:
    143
    Hi, Nice team!

    I suggest on Jirachi Fire Punch>Thunderpunch, makes the best coverage at the Pokémon and also gains excellent power under Sun Thunderpunch we hit the end with Water Pokémon several of which already takes care of the big Venusaur.
    I see that you are using a Ninetales Moveset rather defensive, I think what can be more resistant version Chesto Rest, then you recommend it.
    For Latias Jirachi you have to gamble away for good, maybe trying to Trick him instead of Ice Punch, so maybe if Latias Calm Minder is the firm with the Trick, then you have to gamble away well Sludge Bomb Venusaur that hurts a lot.
    For Garchomp and Landorus i suggest Mamoswine>Terrakion which places the Stealth Rock too and solves these two problems.
    Good Luck, with your team!

    Set:

    Show Hide
    Ninetales (M) @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Flamethrower
    - Rest
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Sunny Day

    Mamoswine (M) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Ice Shard
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Superpower
  3. Jimbon

    Jimbon FAKE TRAIN
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    496
    Hi there,

    Interesting team, Rotom-H doesn't get that much usage, especially given the recent Genesect ban, so props for making it work. Anyway, as for your team, I think there are a couple things you could change to make it function better. Among the threats you listed, Rain in general also looks very threatening, given that your only Tornadus-T switch-in is worn down by hazards + Hurricane, and you don't want to risk switching in Ninetales on Hurricane in the Sun. If you want a quick fix to all three of these, I'd suggest trying out Cresselia over Xatu. Cresselia gives you a buffer for Latias, Garchomp and Landorus, while still helping you out nicely against Rain. In general, it gives you a nice answer for Dragons as Scarf Jirachi isn't exactly the most reliable 'mon to take them on. It shares similar typing to Xatu, while also getting access to recovery. The only thing you really lose is the ability to block hazards, which I'll get onto next.

    If you choose to go with this change, you may find that you'll have some troubles regarding hazards. A way around this would be to try out Taunt somewhere on Terrakion, probably over Swords Dance. I'm not sure how often you consistently set up Swords Dances with Terrakion, but the lead set's main purpose is to get up Stealth Rock, which may clash with your attempts to setup. Taunt means you can block hazards against most leads such as Deoxys-D and other common suicide leads. Not to mention Terrakion is also a pretty fast user of Taunt, so it's very likely you'll be blocking hazards regardless of the situation.

    Also looking over your Venusaur spread, I noticed something that you might want to change -- your current spread is really efficient in terms of speed and it can be altered to get around that. I'd suggest changing your set over to 76 HP / 252 SAtk / 180 Spe while keeping the Timid Nature. This spread means you can outspeed everything up to Scarf Latios, which is definitely the fastest and most relevant benchmark you need to hit. This means you gain some extra bulk to put in HP, which may help you live certain priorities better and have more success when trying to sweep. You may also want to try out Hidden Power [Ice] over Hidden Power [Fire] on Venusaur too. I think your team already handles Steel types such as Scizor and Ferrothorn nicely with Rotom-H and Ninetales, while I'd argue that Dragons are a much bigger problem for Venusaur, just something to consider though.

    Also regarding better EV spreads, you could make Jirachi's a little better. If you feel like you don't need Cresselia for insurance against the multitude of threats in today's metagame, then you can run a little more bulk on Jirachi. Changing your EV spread to 108 HP / 252 Atk / 148 Spe means you gain a little more bulk just like Venusaur, while still outspeeding everything you need to with a Scarf. The only thing you really miss out on is speed tying with Scarf Salamence, but I doubt you'd want to risk that anyway. Another suggestion would be to try out Fire Punch on Jirachi over Thunderpunch, or even something like Healing Wish, which would be ideal if you want to keep Rotom-H and Terrakion alive over the course of the match.

    Good luck!

    cresselia (open)
    Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 220 Def / 40 SAtk
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Psyshock
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Ice Beam
    - Moonlight

    or

    Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 40 SAtk / 220 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Psyshock
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Ice Beam
    - Moonlight
  4. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    799
    I will try Fire Punch over ThunderPunch on Jirachi, but what notable things I could revenge kill with Fire Punch, that either Iron Head, Ice Punch or ThunderPunch (or even U-Turn!) wouldn't revenge kill, or that Jirachi's teammates wouldn't already kill for themselves?

    Also, speaking of your EV spread, Jimbon, I am trying an Adamant nature on Jirachi, as there is nothing notable that I can outrun with Jolly. There were some Salamence that were using Naive/Jolly, but this was only to outspeed Genesect, which is banned, so there's no reason to use Jolly, as many scarfers that use Jolly, such as Landorus, can outspeed Jirachi regardless (because of their higher base speed) and most common Scarfers with less than 100 base speed, commonly run neutral speed natures by themselves.
  5. TGMD

    TGMD +Biosci: you both gave me crabs
    is a Tutoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    Tournament Winner

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    992
    Hey Dark Fallen Angel, nice team!

    First of all, I'm really not the biggest fan of your Ninetales set, you've invested so much into Special Attack just to power up your Fire Blast, no coverage moves whatsoever. I really don't think that investment is very worthwhile for a pokemon that is currently fufilling a supporting role. As you mentioned in your threatlist you also have big problems with both Yache chomp and Landorus. Because of this I recommend you run Air Balloon over Leftovers and Hidden Power [Ice] over Will-O-Wisp, Roar or Sunny Day. Not only does this give Ninetales a much more offensive role, but it allows Ninetales to be a good answer to both Landorus and Garchomp. Ninetales can now take an unboosted Outrage then get rid of Garchomp's Yache Berry and take a Focus Blast from Landorus then get the OHKO on Landorus 100% of the time after Stealth Rock and most of the time without Stealth Rock. Obviously, Ninetales isn't the most solid answer to either of them, but it'll at least give you another option for dealing with these huge threats and it'll make playing around them much easier.

    Anyway, I hope this rate helped and GL with the team :)
  6. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,302
    Hey Dark Angel.

    Okay so I seriously don't find Xatu as a reliable means of SR blocking. Why?

    Shurtugal's Rant (open)

    Imagine you lead with Terrakion
    Now your opponent (lets say me) also leads with SR Terrakion. WTF do you do?

    Lets say you use SR since I have a Dragonite.
    Now I get up rocks for free and your entire team is boned.

    Ok so lets say you anticipate this move. SR bones you and you know it so you go into Xatu.
    I predict your switch and either SD or Stone Edge. One word: boned.


    Ok so lets say the Terrakion situation again. This time, I bring SashSR Garchomp. Can you see where I am going with this? Simple: Xatu has constant pressure of SR blocking, and using SR more than once (in the case of Chomp) is perfectly legitimate considering you can do literally nothing back.


    With that said:

    Terrakion (SubSalac mainly) look like a threat. It can set up all over Xatu and Ninetales and proceeds to bone most of your Pokemon.
    Landy-I RP sweeps. You have, like, Rotom-H for it (and its not even bulky so FB fucked).
    Scarf Keldeo is only beaten by Venu (which can't switch into HP Ice). It can revenge everything else, especially in the rain.

    So, firstly, I'm going to second The Great Might Doom's changes to help compensate these weaknesses. Yeah, however, as you've noticed, balloon breaks easy... So we need plan B.

    Plan B is simple: remove Xatu. I'm going to recommend Starmie in its place. Sure, its a water type (noob: "lol") but that doesn't mean it can't work. Starmie has great coverage too and can threaten Chomp / Landy-I / Terrakion / Keldeo better as well. Venusaur sitll walls Breloom's STABs so it isn't an issue (while Starmie could absorb sleep and it also gets psyshock).

    Starmie can't beat Lando-I at +2 unless its at maximum health, but the check so help with it so I recommend giving it a try.

    Shurt's Starmie USE IT IF YOUR SMART!... Jk :) (open)

    Starmie @ Leftovers / Life Orb
    T: Natural Cure
    N: Timid
    E: 252 SAtk / 252 Spe / 4 SDef
    - Psyshock
    - Rapid Spin
    - Thunder / Thunderbolt / Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam

    Explanation: Thunder can anti-rain, but thunderbolts more reliable so that's entirely up to you. Whilist Hydro Pump can dent Jirachi and stuff in the even you lose sun.



    Er, GL!

    EDIT: hah sorry forget some things:

    Jirachi: Thunderpunch is such a pathetic, weak move without STAB and doesn't even dent bulky waters whereas Trick can screw them over.
    Venu: 4 EVs in HP fucks LO # and makes it take more SR damage move them imo
    Terrak: Taunt over SD: you only use SD if you don't give a fuck about SR smh
  7. dragonuser

    dragonuser The only thing I look up to is the sky
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Pyramid Kingis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,956
    Hey,

    So this is a rather cool Sun team, but I do see a few weaknesses. So once Terrakion has gone down, which it will usually do to the nature of its job on the team, opposing Sand teams/Terrakion look very deadly to face. SR Tyranitar/Terrakion can do incredible damage to your team. Hazards really hurt vs your team, and Terrakion can nearly guarantee a KO if it predicts correctly especially if the weather isn't Sun (which isn't too hard to maintain). To help with this I would recommend Donphan > Xatu. Donphan is a very reliable spinner atm, and does amazing vs Sand Teams. He gives you a solid check to Terrakion and Tyranitar and can fulfill many of the jobs that Xatu did. By using a set of Head Smash / Earthquake / Ice Shard / Rapid Spin you have a very solid way to defeat Deo + Gar cores, and you gain reliable spin vs one of Sun's toughest matchups. Ice Shard Donphan also gives you a secondary check to RP Landorus, as it can threaten a revenge kill. If you want to have a more offensive spread, you can use around 84 Attack EV's, which gives you a very nice mix of power and defense. Otherwise I would simply max his Physical Defense and HP. Anyways, cool team man and gl.

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