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Under the Waves【Peaked #6】

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Trinitrotoluene, Feb 17, 2013.

  1. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene simple mind
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jul 13, 2010

    Table of Contents:
    • [jump=intro]Introduction[/jump]
    • [jump=build]Team Building[/jump]
    • [jump=import]Importable[/jump]
    • [jump=detail]The Team in Detail[/jump]
      • [jump=pixie]Azelf[/jump]
      • [jump=frog]Politoed[/jump]
      • [jump=stag]Heracross[/jump]
      • [jump=drag]Thundurus [Therian][/jump]
      • [jump=peng]Empoleon[/jump]
      • [jump=pony]Keldeo[/jump]
    • [jump=close]Closing Comments[/jump]
    warning: this intro will be a bit tl;dr. if you want to get into the substance of this RMT, click any other jump link but the Introduction link above. if you want to read my rants, then by all means, please proceed.

    To be honest, I'm not sure how to begin all of this. I could start with a small treatise on my interpretation of what the playstyle of hyper offense really is. So, what is the general idea behind hyper offense? The general idea behind hyper offense is to gather and maintain momentum while annihilating the opponent with such immense pressure that they are forced to take up a defensive position just to stand a chance at weathering the onslaught. Unlike other playstyles, where one would have to switch off Pokemon just to make sure they have a shot at winning, hyper offense doesn't have to rely on risky switches to win battles. Yes, switches will be made, but those will happen only when it is the best move possible, which is rare, to say the least. Hyper offense teams tend to match best against rain and hail teams, but they tend to falter quite a bit against sun teams, which can exploit the speed boost given to them with their own powerful attacks.

    Regarding weather-based teams, yes, they've pervaded the metagame and are a permanent resident in what many people refer to as the worst metagame to ever exist. Rain teams in particular make up ~40% of the weather-based teams encountered, sand ~30%, sun ~20%, and hail the remainder*. Of course, these numbers are rough estimates, but a quick glance at them reveals that rain is the most used weather condition. Opening up the Pandora's Box that is rain offense reveals a multitude of abusers at the get-go, ranging from physical powerhouses like Azumarill, Feraligatr, and Gyarados to powerful specially offensive beasts like Keldeo and Starmie. Pokemon like Thundurus-Therian and Tornadus appreciate the accuracy boost granted to Thunder and Hurricane respectively, and Toxicroak as well as Tentacruel appreciate the rain, since it activates their abilities, which allow them to keep the pace with the rest of OU.

    Now, you may be asking yourself what was the point of those concise treatises on hyper offense and rain. For one, the team you're reading actually follows those concepts, and two, I think I might have distinguished this team from many other hyper offense teams built and posted in this forum, thanks to some of the Pokemon I've opted to use. I'm posting this RMT so I can hopefully dispel the thought that Deoxys-D is a requirement if one wants to run a hyper offense team, and I also want to prove that some creativity can lead to an incredible amount of success if it's applied correctly. Anyways, more on that in the team building section.

    This last opening paragraph will be dedicated to laddering peaks and flavor topics. I made it to #18 with my testing account .eman sdrawkcab on the OU ladder the day I finished building it, and it's been pretty consistent in terms of overall use, so I can say that it's solid. The name Under the Waves actually is the name of the 6th track from Immersion, Pendulum's third album, and one that I thought was fitting for a rain team whose goal is to drown the opponent in powerful Water-type attacks. In case you wanted to know, I used the following fonts: Squared Display (text: Under the Waves, barely legible text below Trinitrotoluene, various sub-banners), Visitor (text: A BW2 RMT by Trinitrotoluene). The Japanese on the banner was taken from the following pages on the Naruto Wiki: Kotoamatsukami, Tsukuyomi, and Amaterasu. The small text below my username on the opening banner is just the first four lines of Shakespeare's "Like as the Waves...", which can be seen below:
    Like as the waves make towards the pebbled shore,
    So do our minutes hasten to the end;
    Each changing place with that which goes before.
    In sequent toil all forward do contend.​

    *: this statement reflects only upon January's stats.
    So, I was in the mood of testing out an underrated sweeper that I know is capable of doing copious amounts of damage when given the right opportunities to sweep. Empoleon turned out to be that Pokemon, thanks to its SubPetaya set and incredible resistances. Also, regarding my desire to utilize an underrated Pokemon, Empoleon's usage % hit an astonishing 0.91012%, which is lower than those of absolute garbage such as Charizard (1.12861%), Umbreon (1.25122%), and Machamp (1.78923%). Seriously, start using Empoleon more. It will not disappoint.


    Thundurus-T is Empoleon's best friend, since it resists all of Empoleon's weaknesses and vice versa. Thundurus-T can also be used to break apart all of Empoleon's checks and counters, allowing the Napoleon expy to sweep unfettered. Of course, one could make the argument that SubPetaya Empoleon doesn't need rain support, considering how it was capable of shredding the metagame in DPPtHGSS, but times have changed. Weather is a thing now, and not something I'd like having to deal with, so in Politoed went. It's not half-bad, considering that I can also use it as a wall-breaker that starts up the offensive momentum the team loves and the opponent hates. More on Politoed's role in its subsection. I wouldn't want to spoil it for you here.


    Breloom is also a trending topic on Twitter popular Pokemon, and one that every team has to prepare for, lest they actually want to be swept cleanly by it. While normal people would opt to use Pokemon like Dragonite or Latias to put Breloom in a catch-22 situation, I've decided to take a third option and utilize another underrated Pokemon in the form of Heracross. Thanks to Guts, its convenient resistances to Breloom's STABs, and access to Sleep Talk, Heracross can act as a potent check to any form of Breloom and actually exploit Spore (not the game, mind you) and become an even more terrifying wall-breaker, all at the piddling cost of having its moves semi-randomized.


    So, the formula for a decent hyper offense team is hazard setter, wall-breaker (x2), sweeper, utilitymon, and Scarfer. I had the utilitymon (Thundurus-T), wall-breakers (Politoed, Heracross), and sweeper (Empoleon). I needed a hazard setter, and I decided on using Azelf over the more orthodox Deoxys-D. Unlike Deoxys-D, Azelf is not dependent on a Ghost-type to keep its hazards from being spun away, since it can best many common Rapid Spinners by itself and with the help of teammates. In extreme cases, Azelf can also be used as a bomb that gets the figurative ball named Momentum rolling in the team's favor.


    Finally, I needed a fast Pokemon that could revenge kill Salamence, Garchomp, and Terrakion and help check off the Scarfer slot for the formula. Okay, so the last part was half-way sarcastic, but Keldeo is no joke. It's a fast killing machine that will clean house when it's given the chance to do so. It also has workable bulk, something not commonly found in Scarfed Pokemon, and a resistance to all of Cloyster's moves, allowing Keldeo to revenge kill it even if it hits +2 (and even that's a rarity, since I'll just use Cloyster as a set-up opportunity for Empoleon). Also, Keldeo's Water STAB gets amplified to incredible levels underneath the rain, essentially giving it a double STAB, and combined with a Choice Scarf and incredible natural base 108 speed, it can act as a pseudo-Swift Swimmer.
    Azelf Focus Sash
    Trait: Levitate
    252 Atk 4 SAtk 252 Spd
    Naive Nature
    Stealth Rock
    Fire Blast

    (F) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Drizzle
    4 HP 252 SAtk 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    Hydro Pump
    Ice Beam
    Focus Blast
    Hidden Power [Grass]

    Heracross (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Guts
    252 Atk 4 SDef 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    Close Combat
    Stone Edge
    Sleep Talk

    -Therian (M) @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    4 Def 252 SAtk 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    2 Atk 30 Def
    Hidden Power [Ice]
    Grass Knot
    Volt Switch

    Empoleon (F) @ Petaya Berry
    Trait: Torrent
    12 HP 4 Def 252 SAtk 240 Spd
    Modest Nature
    0 Atk
    Ice Beam

    Choice Scarf
    Trait: Justified
    252 SAtk 4 SDef 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    2 Atk 30 Def
    Hydro Pump
    Secret Sword
    Hidden Power [Ice]

    [BOX]Any hyper offense team worth its salt will have an effective hazard setter, and the only viable choices are Deoxys-D, Terrakion, Garchomp, Mew, Azelf, and Aerodactyl. They each have their unique advantages and disadvantages. However, I was able to zero in on what I wanted for my hazard setter. I wanted my hazard setter to be able to set up SR consistently, without having to use a Ghost-type to assure that hazards remained on the field. Out went Deoxys-D, which can't do anything to stop Starmie from spinning away all its hard work. The other leads mentioned can at least punish Starmie for spinning against it thanks to one of Focus Sash or speed. In addition to being able to punish Starmie, I wanted the prospective hazard setter to be able to punish other spinners for even coming in on it. That eliminated Terrakion, Garchomp, and Aerodactyl, all of which can't beat Donphan. This left me with two choices: Azelf and Mew. This was a simple bulk vs. speed decision, which ironically is a hard decision for me to make. However, the handle had to be dropped, and I decided that speed is the greatest priority for me to have. Enter Azelf, one of the most underrated Pokemon running about in OU.

    Anyways, now that I chose Azelf to be my SR setter and dedicated lead, I needed to choose a moveset for it. Any set without Stealth Rock was immediately disregarded, but that eliminates all but two sets, which are practically the same set, just with the remaining 4 EVs moved about differently. With the illusion of choice dispelled, I ended up going with Azelf's lead set. I chose the given moves for very specific reasons: Stealth Rock is Azelf's obligatory hazard and its main calling card for use on the team. U-turn is one way Azelf can get the ball rolling against sand teams, and Explosion allows Azelf to go out with a bang, crippling everything but bulky Steels, which are no problem for this team to face, since most of them are hit for at least neutral damage by everything else on the team. Fire Blast is the filler move of choice, since it annihilates Forretress and Scizor somewhat reliably. Focus Sash is just insurance that makes certain that Azelf will get SR up against everything but Magic Bouncers, which Azelf can just U-turn or blow up on.

    Azelf is this team's dedicated lead, and oftentimes, its performance determines how the battle will go for me. Now, I've figured out the routines of other leads, and I can put them in four groups: opposing dedicated leads, which consist mainly of Deoxys-D and the occasional Terrakion, weather inducers, Magic Bouncers (a.k.a. Espeon and Xatu), and offensive set-up sweepers, namely Breloom and Volcarona. Against the first group, I'll set SR up, since I'm faster than the aforementioned Pokemon, and Explode or use U-turn as appropriate. Now, you may claim that this just gives Deo-D an opportunity to set up SR and one layer of Spikes, but in practice, the average ladder player will use Taunt or Thunder Wave first, thinking that they will be safe thanks to their Mental Herb (which, by the way, is an excellent item on Deo-D), only for Azelf to get Rocks down and explode on their face, leaving them in KO range for Keldeo's Hydro Pump and Thundurus-T's Thunder (which is basically Focus Blast outside of the rain). Against the second group, I'll perform the same process as I do against the first group, only making exceptions for when I see a member of the third group in the same team (which typically applies to sun teams). Pokemon in the third group are almost never chosen to lead, but they can be seen coming from a mile away. Typically, my opponent will try to set up a situation where the best move would be to set SR up (e.g. Azelf vs. Ninetales) so they can bring Xatu or Espeon in, getting SR on my side of the field. However, if I see one of them in the reserves, I'll use U-turn first and gather momentum so I can get SR past their radar. When facing a lead in the fourth group, I'll keep tabs on which Pokemon it is. If it's a Volcarona or Dragonite, I'll set up SR on the first turn, not fearing what they'll do, thanks to Focus Sash's effect. Afterwards, I'll use Explosion, severely weakening them to the point where Keldeo can easily revenge kill them. If I'm facing a Breloom, I'll U-turn out to Heracross, which can easily exploit Spore and threaten anything on the opponent's team. All in all, Azelf is an incredibly solid team member and one that I'm not willing to replace.[/BOX]
    [BOX]Politoed is not the greatest Pokemon out there. In fact, I don't think Politoed is even that great a Pokemon. However, this lowly toad is the only Pokemon not named Kyogre that gets access to the highly-coveted Drizzle, so lo and behold, it's here to stay in OU. It's a shame, really, when they could have given Drizzle to something like, say, Milotic instead of Politoed. It's just like how they chose to give Drought to Ninetales, which is absolute garbage, when they could have given Drought to Arcanine, which would make sun teams much more competitively viable. Eh, I digress. I'll redact what I said in Deep Sea of Mare. Specs Politoed is the best Politoed out there for fast rain offense teams. Scarf Politoed is a nice revenge killing set, but its days in the limelight are gone now that Tornadus-T was told to take a hike up to the Uber tier. The defensive sets are okay, thanks to Politoed's acceptable bulk, but they simply don't hit hard enough for me, and unless you choose to run a ResTalk or ChestoResto set, Politoed will be vulnerable to hazard damage cutting at its longevity. Yes, all Politoed sets suffer from this, but the offensive sets don't exactly care since they are just meant to hit hard and switch out at the first sign of danger, only coming in to restore the weather. Now, this is where the Specs and Scarf sets differ. The Specs set poses a threat to all weather inducers, regardless of the weather that it's in, thanks to its incredibly powerful Hydro Pump that's further boosted by Choice Specs. That's something the Scarf set simply cannot brag about. Anyways, the moves and EVs, which allow Politoed to outpace the standard specially defensive Rotom-W, are all standard, with the IVs configured so Politoed gets a base 70 Hidden Power Grass, but I am considering changing Hidden Power Grass to Psychic, and Ice Beam on Empoleon to Grass Knot or HP Grass, if only to rout Toxicroak. Another change that I've mulled over was the use of a Water Gem over Choice Specs, so it can have the freedom of switching moves around. Also, I'm thinking of using a bulkier spread to help get past certain trappers (namely Dugtrio and Gothitelle).

    Politoed's game plan is relatively simple. All it's supposed to do is switch in, hit stuff hard, and GTFO before the solid organic waste collides with the Rotational Air Circulation Device. The sheer power SpecsToed has also allows me to be a little more reckless with spamming Hydro Pumps, since even resists can be 2HKOed after the appropriate hazard damage. Of course, having Politoed out on the field will attract the attention of Pokemon with Water Absorb, Storm Drain, and Dry Skin. That's when the coverage moves come into play. With good prediction, I can catch these Pokemon on the switch with Politoed's coverage moves, weakening them to the point where they can't even stand up to Empoleon's onslaught. Against opposing weather teams, I'll just spam Hydro Pump and score major damage against their inducer(s) or sweeper(s). Yes, they'll force Politoed out, but they'll be punished for doing so, since I can just take momentum back by utilizing the appropriate Pokemon. Politoed's point of entry is usually after Azelf explodes or uses U-turn. This method of entrance allows me to steal the weather away from my opponent and execute Politoed's game plan, which can be read above. This is probably the shortest Pokemon section in this RMT, but despite its brevity, Politoed is an essential member for this team's success.[/BOX]
    [BOX]Take one look at the Pokemon and item, and I guarantee you that there will be at least a few people that will want to make a rate that just says "USE CBTERRAKION OVER HERACROSS BECAUSE HERACROSS IS SHIT LOL." First off, CBTerrakion is a user on Smogon, and I can't use him on a team Heracross actually boasts resistances that Terrakion would kill for, and thanks to Sleep Talk and its auspicious resistances, Heracross can act as a reliable check (not a counter, mind you) to Breloom, one of the largest threats in the OU metagame. Also, Heracross can come in on Amoonguss and use it as a free opportunity to start demolishing the opponent's team. Of course, I'm not trying to say that Heracross had no competition for this team slot. It faced competition from the likes of Garchomp and Terrakion, as well as Azumarill and Toxicroak, all of which have their unique quirks that make them worth using. Garchomp and Terrakion have (arguably) better STABs and certainly more bulk, Azumarill more power, and Toxicroak more utility in the rain. However, Heracross boasts the ability to not be crippled by any status not named freeze thanks to Guts as well as resistances to Breloom's STAB moves and some nifty STABs of its own. This makes it a premier check to Breloom and Amoonguss, something which this team needs. In addition, Heracross could also weaken opposing walls and turn Ferrothorn into a liability for the opponent to have, relieving quite a bit of pressure from the team's shoulders.

    Anyways, now that I've chosen Heracross to be the team's resident physically-inclined Pokemon, I had to choose a moveset for it. The Choice Scarf set was immediately out of the question, since Heracross was meant to be a wall-breaker, not a sweeper. This left me with three sets, the Status Orb attacker, Choice Bander, and Sub + 3 Attacks, all capable of violating the opponent's dignity in various ways. Among those three, the Sub + 3 Attacks set hit the weakest, so I ruled it as unfit for this team. Besides, it couldn't do what I needed it to do: absorb Spore and retaliate. The Status Orb set could switch into Breloom's Spore...if the Flame Orb is activated. Activating the Flame Orb is an action which requires a free turn, something that Heracross usually cannot obtain on its own. This left me with the Choice Band set, which by and far away filled the needs the team had for this slot, and then some. I not only got a Breloom check, but I got one of the most fearsome wall-breakers in the OU metagame. Steel-types are slammed by Close Combat, (almost) everything else is busted by Megahorn, and the few Pokemon that think they can switch in on a Close Combat or Megahorn have to contend with Stone Edge. Sleep Talk ensures the team that Heracross is not useless when it falls asleep. The only two Pokemon that can switch in without fearing a 2HKO are Gliscor and Landorus-T, and even then, those two are getting 3HKOed by any move after one round of SR damage when Heracross is asleep, even if Heracross has a Jolly nature, which mine has. I think I had a Jolly nature to outpace Mamoswine, but I think an Adamant nature would help Heracross's wall-breaking crusade more than the additional speed granted by the Jolly nature.

    Just like Politoed, Heracross's game plan is simple: break holes into the opposing team and go out in a blaze of glory. However, unlike Politoed, I'm willing to let Heracross go earlier on in the match if it means having a better chance to sweep with Empoleon or Keldeo. Typically, Heracross will come in on a) a resisted attack or b) a status move from the likes of Breloom and Jellicent early on in the game. Afterwards, I'll just start hitting the opponent with everything Heracross has. Against opposing offensive teams, Heracross cuts through them like a hot knife through butter. Here are some damage calcs which demonstrate Heracross's strength. All calcs assume Heracross has a Jolly nature and is not statused unless otherwise indicated:
    • 252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat / Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 156-184 (48.9 - 57.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252 Atk Choice Band Guts Heracross Close Combat / Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 233-274 (73.04 - 85.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 171-202 (56.62 - 66.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • -1 252 Atk Choice Band Guts Heracross Close Combat / Megahorn vs. 200 HP / 244 Def Landorus-T: 122-144 (33.06 - 39.02%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 190-224 (63.54 - 74.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252 Atk Choice Band Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 285-336 (95.31 - 112.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Tentacruel: 149-176 (40.93 - 48.35%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and weather
    • 252 Atk Choice Band Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Tentacruel: 224-264 (61.53 - 72.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather
    • 252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 203-239 (65.9 - 77.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252 Atk Choice Band Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 304-358 (98.7 - 116.23%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Keep in mind that all of these Pokemon resist Close Combat and / or Megahorn. Against stall teams, which are surprisingly rare, I'll aim to bring Heracross in on a status move so I can ramp its power up even further and leave them reeling to the point where Empoleon or Thundurus-T can clear out the punctured mess. Now, Heracross is fairly important, but I'm not above replacing it for something that would be more worthwhile for the team.[/BOX]
    [BOX]If you're going to use Empoleon, then Thundurus-T is a (dare I say it?) mandatory partner, since it eliminates all of Empoleon's problem Pokemon in a snap, resists all of Empoleon's weaknesses, and can bring Empoleon in on its own problem Pokemon so it can use them as set-up fodder. The only competition for this team slot came from Zapdos, who boasted the same typing as Thundurus-T, with the advantage of having Roost and a bit more bulk, at the cost of Grass Knot, an immunity to Electric-type moves, and quite a bit of power, Jolteon, who was faster, quite weaker, and shared a crippling weakness to Ground-type moves, and Raikou, who had Aura Sphere (with a Rash Nature), Zapdos's bulk, almost as much speed, and all of Jolteon's problems. What I wanted for this slot was something that could handily weaken or eliminate everything that could potentially wall an Empoleon sweep, switch in on its weaknesses, and hit hard on its own. All 4 candidates fit the latter role to a tee, but Raikou and Jolteon fell against the first and second prerequisites. That left Zapdos and Thundurus-T as the only potential candidates. I then decided to use a stricter application of my prerequisites to test the two. Zapdos and Thundurus-T slid past the first and third prerequisites, but Zapdos fell against the second, since it lacked a resistance to Electric-type moves, while Thundurus-T had Volt Absorb, thus technically fitting the second requirement.

    Now that I had decided on using Thundurus-T, I had to choose a moveset. Despite Thundurus-T's somewhat limited movepool, a multitude of sets came up that looked equally good. However, I had to make some executive decisions. I immediately decided against using an Agility set, since that just takes up a moveslot that could be better occupied with another attacking move. I also decided to skip out on the Nasty Plot set, since I liked Volt Switch too much, and thought that Life Orb recoil would defeat Thundurus-T's purpose of acting as a lure for various walls as well as cut away at Thundurus-T's durability. This left me with the Choice and Expert Belt sets. I already had a Specs user in Politoed, and I didn't exactly think that Thundurus-T's Scarf set was the best it could run. By process of elimination, I was left with the Expert Belt set. This set did everything I wanted it to do, and it did so excellently. Now came the time to choose its moves. Thunder and Volt Switch are obligatory STAB moves, which could be used when power (Thunder) or utility (Volt Switch) are needed. Hidden Power Ice is used to snip apart Grass-types since Thundurus-T doesn't get Hurricane to rip them apart. Grass Knot is where I diverge a bit from the norm. Normally, people would run Focus Blast to hit Ferrothorn, but Ferrothorn has no reliable recovery aside from Rest, meaning that repeated switch-ins to powerful Water-type attacks and Thunders will wear it down to the point where Empoleon can break it with a boosted Surf and Ice Beam. This isn't factoring in how Heracross turns Ferrothorn into a burden for the opponent to have, since it just provides Heracross with a free switch-in opportunity to start breaking the opponent's team apart even further. The EVs and nature are all standard, and the Expert Belt is used to put Empoleon's counters into a false sense of security, only to be ripped apart by a powerful coverage move.

    Thundurus-T is an interesting Pokemon, and the role it holds on this team is just as interesting. On the surface, it just looks like another wall-breaker, and Thundurus-T does fit that role. In addition, Thundurus-T can also act as a pivot and momentum-grabber, thanks to its handy resistances (whoa, Thundurus-T has resistances?!) and access to Volt Switch. However, these roles are subservient to its main role as that of a lure that breaks Empoleon's counters apart. Thundurus-T usually enters battle after Azelf Explodes or an opposing Water-type shows itself to stop Politoed, Empoleon, or Keldeo from drowning the opponent with their powerful Water-type attacks. If Thundurus-T enters battle by the former method, Volt Switch will almost always be the first move used. Volt Switch lets Thundurus-T maintain momentum by helping scout out favorable match-ups for the rest of the team and identifying counters to Thundurus-T, which can be drowned out by Politoed and Keldeo or beaten down by Heracross. If a Ground-type not named Garchomp is sent to stop Thundurus-T, the appropriate coverage move will be used to keep them in their place. Gastrodon also likes switching into Thundurus-T, so a well-placed Grass Knot does well to keep it in its place. Entry by the latter method usually results in a Thunder or Grass Knot being launched at the opponent. All this is just meant to clear the path for Empoleon to sweep, and while Thundurus-T is important, I will sacrifice it if doing so means Empoleon can sweep unhindered.[/BOX]
    [BOX]Now, for the moment you've been waiting for: ladies and germs, here is the Pokemon featured in the banner for Under the Waves itself, Empoleon! Okay, so I can't exactly build up tension in a sentence, but Empoleon deserves every bit of applause that you can muster for it. Once it's properly set up, even notable resists like Celebi and Ferrothorn are looking at a 2HKO from Surf, and since the latter has unreliable recovery, I can still force a 2HKO on it after some residual damage even if the weather isn't rainy. In fact, the only Pokemon that escapes a 2HKO that doesn't bear an immunity to Surf is 252 / 252+ Dragonite, and Ice Beam and SR ruin Dragonite. So, I was thinking about what to build a new team around, and I saw a couple of Pokemon that tickled my fancy. Those Pokemon were Chandelure, Roserade, Empoleon, Conkeldurr, Reuniclus, Kyurem, and Staraptor. I then decided to make teams for each of them. Chandelure, despite having a Special Attack on par with Thundurus-T, turned out to be okay at best, since its durability was not appealing at all. Roserade is amazing on balanced teams as a Spiker, and thanks to its typing, it can also serve as an excellent counter to Scarfed Keldeo. This is something that should be used more. Then, I came across Empoleon, and oh my gosh, it is amazing, even with all the Breloom running about. The power it can get is so great that it eclipses known giants like Specs Politoed and Keldeo in terms of sheer damage it can deal. I haven't done testing on any of the Pokemon after Empoleon, since Empoleon proved to be such a Pokemon that I enjoyed using. Maybe I'll test the other Pokemon on that list after this...

    In my opinion, Empoleon's defensive set is outclassed by Ferrothorn and Heatran, and isn't worth using. The Specs set looks good on paper, thanks to Empoleon's respectable bulk and incredible 11 resistances, but it simply falls apart in practice, and besides, if I wanted to use a Specs attacker in this slot, I would've gone with Keldeo, Rotom-W, or Starmie, who are all faster than Empoleon and have better secondary STAB moves, STAB, and / or utility, making them more worthy of the team slot. No, no, it's the SubPetaya set which diverted my attention from the other two sets and (arguably) is what gives Empoleon its niche in OU. Onto the moveset. Substitute shields Empoleon from status, lets it get a boost or two from Agility, and thanks to the 12 HP EVs, acts as a catalyst for the activation of Empoleon's Petaya Berry, skyrocketing Empoleon's already immense power, which is further supplemented by Torrent and a potential rain boost. Agility brings Empoleon's speed up to par, allowing it to outpace Jolly Gyarados after a single Agility. This is usually enough to outpace the OU metagame later on. Surf is Empoleon's most reliable move, and the ticket that lets Empoleon claim its immense power from the figurative vending machine that gives away power. Ice Beam is auxiliary coverage, and its main use is attacking prior to the activation of the Petaya Berry and making sure Dragonite, other dragons, and Grass-types don't ruin Empoleon's fun. The 12 HP EVs have been explained above, and the Speed EVs allow Empoleon to outpace Gyarados after a single Agility. The 4 EVs in Defense are arbitrary, and the rest of the EVs go to buffer Empoleon's already respectable Special Attack. Before you move to recommend Hydro Pump over Surf on Empoleon, keep in mind that Stone Edge misses have caused people to lose many important battles, and that Hydro Pump has the same accuracy and PP as Stone Edge. I am willing to test out Grass Knot over Ice Beam though, since it allows Empoleon to get past Gastrodon on its own. This change would require a restructuring of the team though.

    Empoleon is the team's resident sweeper, and thanks to that, I tend to preserve it until a suitable point of entry, usually provided by sacking the most useless team member or switching in on a resisted attack, is created or found. From there, my first move is usually to accrue a Substitute. Once the Substitute has been acquired, Agility will be used until they break the sub. The next course of action is determined by how many hits it took for them to break the sub. If only one hit was needed to break past it, I'll acquire another sub, and I'll keep subbing down until Petaya Berry activates. If it takes more than one hit to break the sub, I'll keep using Agility until they break the sub. If they break the sub after I've gotten two Agilities under Empoleon's belt, I'll use Substitute and attack them until they break the sub. Now, the third sub is where the divergent plans re-converge. Once the Petaya Berry has been activated, I'll just start demolishing the opponent with Empoleon's hyper-powerful Surfs and boosted Ice Beams, whose power is only matched in the physical realm by Victini's V-create and Darmanitan's Flare Blitz under the sun. Should Empoleon go down, I don't have to fear, since the rest of the team can pick up the slack should Empoleon go down early. Overall, Empoleon is an amazing sweeper. Use it with the proper support, much like you would any other sweeper, and I guarantee you that you will be amazed.[/BOX]
    [BOX]Despite its My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic-esque appearance reducing its ferocity, Keldeo is one of the best Scarfers the OU metagame can offer. Its incredible base 108 Speed in tandem with an even more impressive base 129 Special Attack allows it to present a checkmate situation to many sweepers in OU, and unlike many Scarfed revenge killers, Keldeo actually has a respectable amount of bulk, setting it a notch above other scarfers. In fact, under the rain, Keldeo can act as a pseudo-Swift Swimmer, albeit at the cost of being locked into one move. Keldeo's main source of competition for this team slot came from Latios, Terrakion, Genesect, Salamence, Rotom-W, and Garchomp. All of them, sans Genesect, are potent Scarfers into their own rights, but again, I had some prerequisites that I needed it to fulfill. For one, I needed the Scarfer to be faster than Jolly Sandslash in a sandstorm. This prerequisite assured that the team would not be swept by a Sandslash (and by extension, any slower threats) should the team happen to lose the weather war. This quickly eliminated Salamence, Rotom-W, and Garchomp from the pool of potential team members. In addition, I wanted a Pokemon that could put Mamoswine and Terrakion in their place. Latios, Terrakion, and Keldeo fit that prerequisite, so the choice for this team's scarfmon ultimately fell down to what I preferred: an extra burst of speed and Dragon STAB, powerful Rock STAB and the ability to beat almost all variants of Dragonite consistently, or a resistance to Ice Shard and the ability to further abuse the rain to power up STAB moves. Keldeo's advantages ended up barely edging Latios and Terrakion out for this team's Scarfer slot. Keldeo's Specs set is cool, as are its CM and EBelt sets, but again, this team only needed the revenge killing and late-game sweeping capabilites of the Scarf set. The moves, nature, and EVs are all standard, so I shouldn't have to explain them to you. I'm considering using HP Psychic and Icy Wind over HP Ice and Surf respectively, since Toxicroak is a pain to deal with on occasion.

    Keldeo enters battle either after Azelf Explodes or a teammate gets knocked out. From there, the move it first uses depends on what Keldeo has to face. If Keldeo is in there to revenge kill the opponent, then Surf or the appropriate coverage move will be launched. Now, Keldeo also does more than just revenge kill for the team. Keldeo also acts as a back-up sweeper that comes to life if Empoleon goes down after demolishing half of the opponent's team and / or cannot sweep. In that case, I simply go for Hydro Pump and start breaking apart the opponent's team. However, if I cannot afford to miss against a weakened Pokemon, I'll use Surf right then and there. It's powerful enough under the rain that the lower base power is a non-issue. Hidden Power Ice is the main reason this team don't fear Scarf MoxieMence as much as other teams do, despite the team's overall frailty. Also, just like every other Pokemon sans Empoleon, I'm willing to sack Keldeo if it means that Empoleon can set up and sweep more easily. Overall, Keldeo, while it does fill a respectful niche, ultimately is the most replaceable member of the team.[/BOX]
    With that stated, I think it's time that I listed a few changes I had in mind for my team.

    Changes in mind:
    1. Azelf ====> SD SR Garchomp
      • This change may not seem fairly obvious, since I decided against Garchomp the first time I made this team. However, I decided to do further testing, and I found that I actually liked it quite a bit, after I replaced Fire Blast with Swords Dance.
    2. Heracross ====> Breloom
      • Screw Gastrodon and Vaporeon.
    3. Keldeo ====> Latios
      • SubSalac Terrakion is an annoyance to face at times, and the extra speed brought about by Latios helps curb Terrakion. In addition, it grants Empoleon more set-up opportunities. I'll do some testing with this thought and see how that goes.
    4. Politoed's item and moveset:
      • Choice Specs ====> Water Gem or Leftovers
        • Again, the whole issue of overwhelming, consistent power or the ability to switch moves is the whole meaning behind this change I'm considering.
      • 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Timid ====> 220 HP / 252 SpA / 36 Spe Modest
        • Bulk vs. speed is the matter at hand again.

    Some weaknesses I've noticed are a slight vulnerability to SubSD Terrakion if I allow it to set up. Kingdra is a slight problem if I play sloppily. Gastrodon and Vaporeon are annoyances if Thundurus-T goes out early. Other than those Pokemon, I haven't exactly found something that threatens the team too badly. Now, since this is my 500th post (can I call it a 0.5k?), a quick list of shout-outs can be found in the hide tags below.

    Shout-outs (open)
    Harsha: You naturally would get the first entry here. Iunno what to say, really. You've gone so far from when I first met and tutored you, and I can tell that only good things await you, both in Smogon and in real life! Good luck in whatever you set your mind to, my friend and fellow Treehouse admin! I just might cry...

    Sayonara (a.k.a. Kira Light): My fellow anime fan, TH admin, and battler. You and Harsha have been my confidants for a while, and I thank you for that. I also have to thank you for encouraging me to chase after the TR badge. Start rating more!

    Intergalactic: You know, building teams with you is a blast. I hope you get through whatever life throws at you.

    Delko: One of my inspirations for team rating and building when I was still unbadged. You're a great friend and badge leader, and still an inspiration.

    Jirachee: If your favorite Pokemon isn't Jirachi, then what is it? Also, thanks for choosing me to host the RMT workshop in your behest. You're a great person, and I can see you going places.

    tab: cubchoo (°ᴥ°) !

    Superpowerdude: I didn't forget you this time! Dogbirds. That is all.

    Novaray, Shining Latios: TEAM KFC REPRESENT! Besides that, you're a great rater and person. Keep at it!

    Jimbon, Gimmick: Keep using those unique Pokemon that end up changing how I do team building. Also, keep at those rates!

    Neliel, ganj4lf, Mosquiton, Mr. Green: You Italian raters are breathing life and new vigor into RMT with your unique styles. Thanks for doing so, and keep at it!

    Joeyboy: You should get a Xerneas and keep rating.

    Pocket: I found the Kisame pic you were using as your avatar once! Also, thanks for the help in C&C. It's massively appreciated.

    I think I covered everyone I wanted to. If I somehow forgot about you, please VM me so I can add you to this list. If you like this team, don't forget to give it a Luvdisc! Have a nice morning / day / afternoon / evening / night / whatever other time it is you're reading this RMT.
  2. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Jun 25, 2011
    Hey :D

    Another team I see :) Typically, sun teams seem like an issue. Thank god they aren't used that much!. Stoutland sand teams also seem like issues, as well as being royally screwed by Scarf Keldeo. Agility ThundyT (or DubDance) will sweep after one boost.

    As for my solutions. Band Heracross looks like the Pokemon I can replace without ruining much of anything. Its wallbreaking but not really contributing. At least, its outclassed by Specs / LO Latias. All of those calcs can also be accomplished by Latias, and it too can wall Breloom. However; it also serves as a Keldeo check as well as checking booster ThundyT. Specs will wallbreak like the Band Heracross; however, I highly recommend using the Life Orb set. You already have Specs toed so you might as well give up the wallbreaker for a check against these threats. Latias also checks sun for what its worth!

    The next Pokemon I want to replace is Azelf. I think that maybe you forgot about SashSR Terrakion. It actually covers more than you think. It hits Tyranitar, it can check Stoutland, and its also a good matchup vs. DeoD. It guarantees rocks as well, but the ability to check sand is too good to refuse IMHO. (Also helps vs. Sun, aka helps win weather wars more)

    Everything else looks solid. EVs are fine, moves are great, and everything synergizes perfectly! :) Good Luck pal.

    sets (open)

    Latias @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    Nature: Timid
    EVs: 72 HP / 184 SpA / 252 Spe
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Surf
    - Roost

    Terrakion @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Justified
    Nature: Jolly
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    - Stealth Rock
    - *Taunt*/ Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge

    *until DeoD leaves*
  3. Wire


    Feb 16, 2013
    Sup TNT

    I just read through this whole RMT and one thing came into my mind. If you read this without looking at the descriptions then your rate will be a waste of your time. CAUTION! Okay, that was my note to other raters now to rate the team. SubPetaya Empoleon is an amazing threat in today's metagame and you have used the set very well. The whole team is built around Empoleon and will catch the opponent off gaurd because they will think your team is a gimmick cause you use three UU pokemon. After testing this team I saw a big weakness to CM Virizion and Gastrodon. Virizion is a underrated threat but it surely is a threat. Considering your only physical attacker is Heracross and and that thing will be weakened because it is a wall-breaker (you got Status + SR + No Spinner = Spikes too), it'll be weakened enough by late-game to get killed by Hidden Power [Ice]. Thundurus-T can't deal with it because of the SpD boosts and Keldeo is annihilated by Giga Drain, not only that but it will recover back all the lost hit points too. Azelf's Fire Blast is weakened in rain too with sucks. I would recommend using Choice Scarf Latios over your current Keldeo set. You will lose cleaning ability but the extra speed and also being able to revenge dragons too which Keldeo can do too and some extra coverage works well. Latios also gets pseudo-STAB from Surf which is nice and is great when you won the weather wars. Also Toxicroak is a problem like you said since you have a lot of momentum you can easily OHKO with Psyshock, CM Virizion also checked. The next threat is Gastrodon. Gastrodon is a mild threat and is only annoying when Thundurus-T is gone. However, it won't matter because it will assume Heracross is running Moxie where a guts-boosted (Scald to your advantage) Megahorn or CC will OHKO it. Period. This team is really nice. I don't think you should run Water Gem on Politoed because it'll lack the capabilties to get 2HKOes on Ninetales switches and Specially Defensive Tyranitar. This is a very boss team and nothing else should be switched in my opinion. Thunder is in the set to nail Vaporeon, Skarmory, Jellicent, Tentacruel, Starmie, Gyarados, and Slowbro, however, if you think crippling walls is better, Trick is the superior option, why Trick is the main option. Here is the set:

    @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    Nature: Timid
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Surf
    - Trick / Thunder

    This team is boss. Keep up the work!

    EDIT: I did not suggest Latios because it is my avatar. That was just a coincidence.
  4. Gimmick

    Gimmick Electric potential

    Sep 7, 2011
    Hey TNT!

    This is easily the most creative team I have seen all year! It's refreshing to see a team where half of the Pokemon are underrated or underused but still work perfectly together!

    [​IMG] However, a diamond doesn't come without its faults. There are a couple problems that hinder the potential of each of your Pokemons' roles. First and defensively speaking is Jellicent. Specially defensive variants really only fear Thundurus-T and will clearly switch out as soon as they see it. Although you do grab some momentum with Volt Switch, Thundurus can easily be worn down with SR and other passive damage like sand. The first thing that comes to mind is to try out Pursuit on Heracross over Stone Edge. I doubt you click Stone Edge that often, and since you have a powerful Pursuit trapper that doesn't mind burns, Jellicent can be taken care of really easily. It also Pursuit traps scared Lati@s (if they think you're Scarfed) and Celebis to pave the way for Keldeo or Empoleon to clean up.

    [​IMG] Speaking of Empoleon, Jimbon and I made a team with it recently as well, and found an EV spread that maximized its bulk but allowed it to outspeed basically everything relevant. 76 HP / 252 SAtk / 12 SDef / 168 Spd does just that and still allows you to activate the Petaya Berry after only 3 Subs. The speed allows you to outspeed CB TTar / standard Heatran before an Agility (to make Substitutes) and Jolteon after +2. There's not really anything else you outspeed with a Modest nature (besides rare stuff like Adamant Scarf Landorus-T/Kyurem-B), so the extra bulk can come in handy when trying to set up. The SDef EVs makes sure that a defensive Politoed's Scald never breaks your Sub: 4 SpAtk Politoed Scald in Rain vs 76 HP/12 SpDef Empoleon: 17.68% - 21.04% (5-6 hits to KO). It also helps against other random weak/resisted special attacks.

    [​IMG] Next up, I want to talk about the main offensive threat to your team--Thundurus-T. After an Agility, it OHKOs everything with Thunder/HP Ice. Although it can't find a lot of opportunities to set up, it can squeeze by against Keldeo or Politoed locked into the wrong moves. It also immediately puts on pressure because it forces you to attack it in fear that it will set up, which may cause you to lose key components to your team (like Empoleon). The only thing I can think of currently to keep the dynamic of your team is to try out Yache Berry on Thundurus-T. It still fakes the choice item, but allows you to survive opposing Thundurus-T's HP Ices (and other stuff like Mamoswine's Ice Shard). 252 SpAtk Life Orb Thundurus-T (+SpAtk) Hidden Power Ice vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Yache Berry Thundurus-T: 47.83% - 56.52% (2-3 hits to KO). Your HP Ice OHKOs back after SR + 1 round of Life Orb, so it should go down. You do lose the power boosted by Expert Belt, but I don't think that's as necessary as faking the choice item and luring Gastrodon in.

    [​IMG] I so so so endorse using Psychic on Politoed over Focus Blast. Most of the time, you're going to click Hydro Pump on Specs Politoed, which still deals like 40 - 50% to Ferrothorn (if you're Modest). All you need is a weakened one for Empoleon, so that damage is just enough. Toxicroak, on the other hand, can be detrimental to your team and loves switching in on Politoed. Taking it out early is a definite plus. IMO, you need HP Grass to catch Jellicent and Gastrodon off guard. It forces the former to recover and almost always OHKOs the latter, so that's definitely helping the rest of your team do its job. Next, I'd actually like to suggest a change to a Modest nature because its damage output is just so desirable. Timid is really only useful against Breloom, but Heracross almost wants to switch into it to get a Guts boost. You can still outspeed Rotom-W (and Bulk Up Toxicroak!) with this spread: 120 HP / 252 SAtk / 136 Spd. The damage output is very noticeable and I'm sure you won't look back. The extra bulk is also nice because you live +2 Toxicroak's Drain Punch at 100%: 252 +2 Atk Toxicroak (+Atk) Drain Punch vs 120 HP/0 Def Politoed: 84.62% - 99.43% (2 hits to KO). Here's the set!
    Politoed (open)
    [​IMG] (M) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 120 HP / 252 SAtk / 136 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Psychic
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    [​IMG] And lastly, I have one minor change on Azelf. While Deoxys-D is still OU, Azelf really appreciates Magic Coat. Magic Coat, unlike Taunt, entirely shuts down opposing Deoxys-D. It doesn't even matter if they have Mental Herb since they still can't do anything. If they have Magic Coat, you have 2 options: PP war or U-turn out. Since you're faster, you will be able to set up SR 1st once Magic Coat runs out of PP on both Pokemon. You can also just U-turn out on their Magic Coat into something like Heracross to just take it out. Fire Blast is the best replacement since you have Explosion to spinblock stuff like Forretress. Of course, if Deoxys-D gets sent to Ubers, definitely go with Fire Blast (or even Zen Headbutt because lead Terrakion will grow in popularity).

    And that's all I got! This is a wonderful team, TNT. Really nice job. Thank you for posting it so beautifully! Good luck!~
  5. ZoroDark

    is a Tiering Contributor

    Nov 27, 2011
    God there are no words for this RMT: the layout is stunning and the team itself is amazing in the fact that it uses so many underrated pokes while still having an extremely solid team. Personally, I feel like Azelf isn't all that good in OU. I second Shurtugal's suggestion of a LeadTerrakion: this'll greatly help you versus Sand teams, and puts your opponent under a lot of pressure immediately. Yache berry, too, seems like a cool item on Thundurus-T to solve that annoying Agility Thundurus issue. The main thing I'd push you to use though is a bulkier Toed. Your team is greatly reliant on Rain, and the added bulk will give you extra options against a plethora of pokes (first ones to come to mind are Landorus, Toxicroak etc).
    That's all I can say, I always LOVE your RMTs. Keep it up man!
  6. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene simple mind
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jul 13, 2010
    Activity is dying down, so I might as well answer your posts.
    Hey Shurtugal! Thanks for the rate and Luvdisc. You're right about having a slight vulnerability to sun teams, and your suggestions are all great. I've been trying out your recommendation of SashSR Terrakion over Azelf, and I'm enjoying it quite a bit. It's definitely a change I'm happy I made. I'll make amends to the OP to reflect that. However, after testing, I didn't exactly like having Latias over Heracross. I missed the power that Heracross brought to the table, as well as the resistances it had. I know you had the best of thoughts in recommending it, but I didn't like it. Thanks again!

    Hey, thanks for the rate! You did a great job in pointing out some holes, so let me respond with how I deal with them. Gastrodon loves coming into Thundurus-T, thinking it can absorb a weak HP Ice or Thunder / Volt Switch. I then go for the 2HKO with Grass Knot. If they switch out, but are weakened, then Thundurus-T has accomplished its mission and cleared out a path for Empoleon to sweep. CM Virizion is hassled by offensive pressure from all sides, and should I see a Virizion in the ranks, I'll keep Heracross healthy. Yea, it's a problem, and I'm extremely glad it's uncommon. I've been tinkering around with Latios (under an alt, obviously) but I didn't exactly like how it had a slight lack of power compared to Keldeo, so it's probably a change I won't go through with, despite listing it out on the OP.

    Hey Gimmick, thanks for the extremely comprehensive rate and Luvdisc! I decided to test out all your changes (sans the one for Azelf), and they've all worked incredibly well. I'll list out some changes I made for this team below.

    Thanks for the rate, Luvdisc, compliment, and suggestions ZoroDark!

    Anyways, here are the changes I've made, as well as how the team looks now. The OP will be updated relatively soon.

    Terrakion @ Focus Sash | Justified
    Jolly | 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Stealth Rock | Swords Dance | Close Combat | Stone Edge

    Swords Dance helps Terrakion punish opposing leads, and thanks to its incredible STAB options, not many common leads can avoid a 2HKO from it before a boost (notable exceptions include Hippowdon and Forretress), and after a Swords Dance boost, nothing is avoiding a 2HKO. With Swords Dance, Terrakion can start the carnage and get the ball rolling. It helps against weather-based teams, and it's responsible for weakening teams early on in the game. Admittedly, it's completely different than Azelf, but it's a good kind of different.

    Established Changes:
    • [​IMG] ====> [​IMG]; proposed by Shurtugal and ZoroDark
    • [​IMG]
      • Focus Blast ====> Psychic; proposed by Gimmick
      • 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Timid ====> 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe Modest; proposed by Gimmick and ZoroDark (EV spread accredited to Gimmick)
    • [​IMG]
      • Jolly ====> Adamant; self-proposed change
      • Stone Edge ====> Pursuit; proposed by Gimmick
    • [​IMG]
      • Expert Belt ====> Yache Berry; proposed by Gimmick and ZoroDark
    • [​IMG]
      • 12 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 240 Spe ====> 76 HP / 252 SpA / 12 SpD / 168 Spe; proposed by Gimmick
    Rejected Idea(s):
    • [​IMG] ====> [​IMG]; proposed by Shurtugal
    The Team as it Stands:
    Terrakion @ Focus Sash | Justified
    Jolly | 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Stealth Rock | Swords Dance | Close Combat | Stone Edge

    Politoed @ Choice Specs | Drizzle
    Modest | 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe | 2 Atk / 30 SpA
    Hydro Pump | Ice Beam | Psychic | Hidden Power

    Heracross @ Choice Band | Guts
    Adamant | 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Close Combat | Megahorn | Pursuit | Sleep Talk

    Thundurus-Therian @ Yache Berry | Volt Absorb
    Timid | 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe | 2 Atk / 30 Def
    Thunder | Hidden Power | Grass Knot | Volt Switch

    Empoleon @ Petaya Berry | Torrent
    Modest | 76 HP / 252 SpA / 12 SpD / 168 Spe | 0 Atk
    Substitute | Agility | Surf | Ice Beam

    Keldeo @ Choice Scarf | Justified
    Timid | 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe | 2 Atk / 30 Def
    Hydro Pump | Secret Sword | Hidden Power | Surf

    I reached #6 on the OU ladder under the alt Trail of Sevens with this update of the team, and I'm happy about it. Maybe with a few more changes it can actually hit #1!

    With that said, please keep rating, and thanks for all the Luvdiscs so far!
  7. Stathakis

    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion

    Dec 28, 2007
    came in this thread to say deo-d has pressure

    looks like pressure doesn't affect magic coat. carry on

    as for the team, it looks cool. i'll playtest it and give you my thoughts later. luvdisc'd for now. props for using empoleon in B/W
  8. Jimbon

    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Jan 24, 2012
    Hey TNT,

    Really interesting team, I'll probably have to try this team out at some point. Anyway, as for your team you might have some trouble against variants of Terrakion, as well as stuff like Toxicroak too. I know you've already changed Azelf for Terrakion, but I'd suggest reconsidering Azelf again with Taunt over Fire Blast. I somewhat doubt the effectiveness of Fire Blast on a Rain team, while Taunt allows you to prevent stuff like Sub Salac / Sub Swords Dance Terrakion, Swords Dance Toxicroak and Quiver Dance Volcarona amongst other Pokemon. If you feel like you still prefer Terrakion, then you definitely want Taunt on your lead set. It's great for keeping momentum against stuff like Skarmory, while you additionally prevent hazards which is good for a team like this that may require smart double switching.

    I also noticed you were on the fence regarding your Politoed set. The main threats to your team are usually those that can continually switch-in with little drawback and fire off hits as your team's synergy isn't the greatest considering you've got three waters. If anything, I'd consider changing Politoed's EV spread to 220 HP / 252 SAtk / 36 Spe, like you mentioned. The extra bulk may be handy when switching into Draco Meteors and such, and it gives you an extra buffer against stuff like Toxicroak, Gyarados, Scizor and so on. The loss of speed is notable, but I'd argue the main things you now cannot outspeed (Breloom, SD Scizor, DD Dragonite, Gliscor) are dealt with fairly easily by your other team mates. If you want to keep this option however, I'd probably suggest dropping Hidden Power [Grass] for Surf. Having only one water STAB on Specs Politoed can be annoying, especially when you just need the accuracy and not necessarily the power. If you go with Surf you now have that choice, which is great for stuff like Ninetales switching into Politoed expecting a defensive set while you Hydro Pump and potentially miss. Losing Hidden Power [Grass] doesn't hurt your team at all, as Quagsire still gets 2HKOd while Gastrodon is taken care of by Grass Knot from Thundurus-T while Heracross can break through it pretty easily.

    If you're still unsure about what to use, then another option is to use a Choice Scarf set on Politoed over your current Choice Specs set. You might think it's a little unorthodox to run more than one scarfer on the same team, but I've personally used Choice Scarf Keldeo + Choice Scarf Politoed together and the results have been pretty good. You get another check to stuff like boosting Terrakion and Dragons, while you ease some of the reliance on Keldeo to revenge kill everything, making it much easier to sweep with Empoleon, as stuff like Ferrothorn and other Empoleon counters are going to be hard pressed with the amount of Rain boosted attacks already. Additionally, you gain Perish Song which is also good against stat boosters, namely those using Calm Mind. Calm Mind Latias / Jirachi in particular look very problematic given the amount of setup opportunities they get given the amount of choiced Pokemon and their naturally good typings respectively. Just something to consider, it does patch up a lot of your problems and provides you with a more offensive answer to your them.

    Good luck!
  9. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene simple mind
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jul 13, 2010
  10. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Jun 25, 2011
    Hey TNT.

    I wanted to mention that I tried this team with NPPass Celebi and Double Dance ThundyT (see my spread on "[Peaked #1] Objection!" over Herracross and EB ThundyT respectively (and obviously used SRTaunt Terrakion) and I had loads of fun. I'm not recommending you change the OP or the team, but I just wanted to mention that its quite fun to pass +2 to Empoleon, considering they have near-perfect synergy together. I can't remember the Celebi spread so if you want to try it make the modifications:

    1. Use Calm Nature
    2. Hit 265 speed
    3. Invest in maximum SDef
    4. Remainder into HP

    While it can't wall break like Herracross, when I used with above changes I found that NPPassing Celebi was all I needed to break most stall teams. Thanks for sharing such a great team with us TNT! :)

    note (open)

    just enforcing that I don't think that using NP Celebi and DubDance ThundyT is necessary, only that its another variant of this team that I found I enjoyed using :P
  11. asterat


    Jul 20, 2011
    Yo try landorus-t/donphan over azelf to help with CM psyshock jirachi and terrakion. Landorus t is stupid bulky but donphan ice shard and rapid spin.
  12. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene simple mind
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jul 13, 2010
    Hey Jimbon! Thanks for the rate and Luvdisc. I'll try out Taunt over Swords Dance on Terrakion and see where that takes me. Also, I'll try out your spread for Specs Politoed, as well as Surf over HP Grass. My only concern with the latter change for Politoed is that it'll remove one of my better ways for dealing with Gastrodon.

    Hey Shurtugal! Thanks for the ideas! I'll be sure to test them out.

    Thanks for the rate and Luvdisc Asterat! I see where you're coming from with your ideas, and I think they're great, but I think that they'll take too much momentum from my team to be of any good.

    Thanks for all the rates so far! They're shaping the team up quite nicely. I'll keep you all posted on the team's status soon!
  13. shrang

    shrang You want dabs?
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 24, 2009
    Your team looks pretty Latias weak. I guess Heracross can take a hit from defensive variants and OHKO with Megahorn, but with some hazards up and Heracross switching in a couple of times, Calm Mind Latias (especially slightly offensive variants) can come in on Thundurus-T, Keldeo (on the wrong move), Empoleon without his boosts and Politoed and set up Calm Minds and you can't kill it with anything (at least if Heracross is weakened enough). Your team is also pretty Jolteon weak, any Jolteon that can switch moves, especially SubPass Jolteon hits pretty much every one of your Pokemon for super effective damage (and those that don't are not really bulky enough to avoid getting 2HKOed) and outspeeds a major portion of your team. A lot of your team also would seem to run into problems against defensive Rotom-W, since you have no real way of killing it easily.

    Due to these reasons, I reckon you should use Celebi -> Thundurus-T and Scizor -> Heracross. With the offensive nature of your team, NP Celebi is good for setting up on Jolteon (without Signal Beam) and ROtom-W, while Scizor keeps Latias in check. I personally don't see the point of THundurus-T. All you're doing is luring out Gastrodon, but you have HP Grass on your Politoed, as well as Keldeo, and with Celebi, you easily set up on Gastro. With Celebi around, you won't need Heracross any more, and Scizor is a much better check to Latias (you can SD if you want, or just go CB).

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