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Unleashing Kyogre in OU: Final Gen 4 Team

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by Eggbert, Sep 14, 2010.

  1. Eggbert

    Eggbert

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    1,076
    Unleashing Kyogre in OU: Final Gen 4 Team

    [​IMG]

    Intro

    Like many others, I am posting my favorite, most successful, and final gen 4 team. It’s fun to use, gives me a consistent win ratio, and continues to achieve a good cre. Anyone who has played ubers knows of the fearsome power of Kyogre. Just look at the shoddy statistics, it is on more than half of the teams! Take the rain boosted waterspout with specs off of 150 base special attack and you have a tremendous powerhouse that even resistors have much to fear from. But that’s ubers right? No need to fear. Now let me tell you I have found a way to set kyogre on the loose in OU. That’s right. I’m using a poke with incredibly powerful rain boosted high powered water stab moves that has only a pair of true counters, counters rarely seen on a team together. Counters that are incredibly easy to lure. Any guesses to what would happen?
    Note: This is not a rain dance team.

    Team Building

    Kyogre (open)
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    First, this team is obviously based on Kyogre, or Kyogre Jr. If you haven’t guessed, it’s Kingdra. Not just any DD kingdra, the incredibly dangerous special rain dance kingdra. In the rain, almost nothing beats it 1 v 1. Go down the usage list. It won’t stop until you get to vaporeon. Tyranitar can slow down the sweep, but is ultimately knocked out. Most waters like starmie, swampert, gyarados, and suicune are OHKO’d or 2HKO’d. Only two true counters remain, vaporeon, and of course blissey. That’s it. Both are not in the top ten, and are rarely seen on a team together.

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    With that said, I needed a lure to lure and easily beat them. After some thinking and trial/error, I found heatran to be nearly perfect. With passho berry, I fire blast/earth power off the bat, then explode on unsuspected blissey/vappy that don’t see lefties/LO. Suicune and gyarados, who are only 2HKOd are also lured. This is also the perfect starmie lure, not to KO, but to be setup fodder for Kingdra.

    [​IMG]

    And there we have it! It works incredibly well. If I can set up, Kingra will ravage the foe’s team. Now I just need to add some team supporters and pokemon that work well with Kingdra to lure and beat bothersome opponents. After a bit of testing multiple revenge killers and partners, I have found the strange scarf metagross to be effective. It can switch in on extremespeed and KO luke. It beats luke, ape DDtar, gengar, adamant gyarados/dragonite, and can explode to KO almost any non-resistor.

    [​IMG]

    My team is slightly ravanged by ground attackers. Another pest was ttar, who would stop kingdra’s rain. Swampert was also a pest, and crocune too. See where this is going? Breloom works very well with kingra. Another heatran/starmie lure for kingdra, ttar switch, and general pain. Putting something to sleep and KOing something else is just icing on the cake. Also helps combat stall.

    [​IMG]

    After running sub/pain split gengar here, I realized I had a problem with agiligross and offensive suicune. So I tested the unusual LO rotom. Besides being slower than gengar, this rotom is absolutely incredible. It beats most waters 1v1, save starmie who kingdra sets up on. It is surprisingly powerful and deadly. My only complaint is that it loses to gengar and doesn’t have recover....

    [​IMG]

    Finally, I needed a lead. Since heatran could set up SR, I wanted an antilead that could maybe set up SR, and deal with gengar and add some speed to the team. I tried gallade, dragonite, even endeavor infernape (which is awesome but somewhat guess reliant). Then I found out about life orb azelf. It beats most common leads, can set up SR, and even explode to take something with it (Not to mention seriously weaken tyranitar)

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    The Team (!)

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    Sniper (Azelf) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 8 HP/252 Spd/248 SAtk
    Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Psychic
    - Fire Blast
    - Explosion
    - U-Turn

    Strategy:

    Starting things off is the powerful and effective LOzelf. I like the sound of that. Anyway, it does what I need it to do. Beats most other leads, can get up SR, can stop gengar later, and KOs machamp. Machamp isn’t really as common as I fear it to be, but many people just love to throw machamp and heatran on a team... People need to realize that everyone is preparing for them. However I did not solely choose this to beat machamp. I chose this because it can set up stealth rock and deal with pokes that cause this team issues (ttar, gengar, ape, machamp) Psychic is for stab, it even 2HKOs enemy azelf reliably. Deals with gengar, whom I hate. Fire blast is important here, it KOs lumgross, 2HKOs occa versions, generally a good move to have. Explosion with LO and 125 base atk really stings things like a paper cut. I see little need for grass knot, as psychic can 2HKO swampert. U-turn vs. SR is a tossup. Heatran can also set up SR, and u-turn lets me beat other azelf more reliably, but I like SR early. Azelf sets a good start, KOing many leads, getting SR up, and can bring something else down with a boom. Most importantly, it beats the things the rest of the team falls to, earning it a spot on the team.

    Vs. Top Leads (open)

    Azelf: U-turn

    Machamp: 110% min.

    Metagross: They can't OHKO me, so I fire blast. If they survive, I switch to rotom. If they are scarfed, I switch to heatran.

    Aerodactyl: 2HKO with psychic.

    Heatran: Stealth rock first if I'm using it. Then explode. If they set up stealth rock (likely) I win. If they KO me, I see what they are and act accordingly. Against LO sets/specs I bluff scarftran. Against shuca I can KO them with rotom.

    Swampert: psychic 2HKOs.

    Roserade: explode. toxic spikes/spikes are bad for kingdra.

    smeargle: see above.

    ninjask: haven't seen one yet. I guess I could attack then explode their switch in.


    EVs/Nature: Naive and 8 HP makes it so metagross can’t KO me.

    Other info/changes: I've been using colbur azelf...This is the easiest spot for me to change. Azelf just works so well here. Roserade can’t get any spikes (I explode then revenge kill), it deals with machamp, and checks gengar and ape. I didn’t just toss it into the team because it can beat machamp (but that’s a good bonus). It’s name is sniper because it just picks off common leads. Grinning machamp eargly waiting to payback are instantly picked off, the full green HP bar is gray in an instant.​

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    [​IMG]

    Arcadia (Rotom-w) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 6 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hydro Pump
    - Pain Split

    Strategy:

    This set is ****. It deals with metagross to an extent, and luke. It can switch into common priority aimed at Kingdra. Although it is unlikely, it can take Kingdra’s rain and get a boosted pumper. Rotom is particularly useful for beating vappy/suicune/gyara if heatran fails. When I had gengar, I got beaten badly when heatran’s explosion failed to KO a full hp vappy. But no more! Because Rotom is here to defeat most pesky waters. This set is also very strong in terms of damage and coverage. Opening with hydro pump is my game, and once heatran/ttar are beaten, things have problems with shadow ball and t-bolt due to few resists that can beat me. Pain split looks cool, but I rarely have time to use it against offensive teams. Recover would be pretty sweet, but hey.


    EVs/Nature: Nothing special. Beats timid suicune.

    Other info/changes: Not really. Gengar works decently here, but I need rotom to beat metagross. Rotom reminds me of an arcade for some reason.​

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    [​IMG]

    Fun Guy (Breloom) @ Toxic Orb
    Ability: Poison Heal
    EVs: 12 HP/244 Atk/252 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Spore
    - Substitute/Mach Punch
    - Seed Bomb
    - Focus Punch

    Strategy

    Breloom’s strategy is well known. What works well here is that breloom easy finds time to set up. A choiced user revenging azelf or heatran is the most common occurance. From there I usually sub unless it I have no choice. It’s important to choose what I want incapacitated. From there I play the old subpunch games, stirring up some trouble until I am forced out. Breloom is not arbitrarily thrown, it works well to deal with other teammates counters and vice versa. After its orb has been activated, it is an exceptional blissey and vaporeon switch. It decimates crocune, (but I usually have to double switch due to the rising popularity of offensive suicune). All in all, a great addition, with only drawbacks in speed and bulk.

    EVs/Nature: Nothing new here.

    Other info/changes: Empoleon is bothersome to my team, so I am considering the addition of mach punch, or a switch to another grass type. The only problem is that no other grass type is as useful to this team as breloom (I’ve tested most of them) And for the nickname, breloom is a fungus, and so fun to fight against=Fun Guy.​

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    [​IMG]

    Game_Master (Metagross) @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Clear Body
    EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Meteor Mash
    - Earthquake
    - Thunderpunch/Ice Punch
    - Explosion

    Strategy

    A surprising, yet effective revenge killer (not just for that reason). It beats most threats that I need to beat: Lucario, adamant gyarados, NPape, gengar, adamant dragonite, kingdra (it can’t beat this), tyranitar, ect. The surprise value helps against gengar, a problem. Meteor mash is a solid option, it revenges weakened dragons, tyranitar, gengar. Like scarfgon, it can sweep lategame with multiple attack raises. Thunderpunch beats gyarados, but isn’t too useful otherwise. Explosion is 99% necessary. It beats kingdra and and suicune as a last resort. Also, if I fall into low health, I can get a free KO. Earthquake is fairly obvious. The overall goal is just to revenge threats, simple.

    Advantages over Scarfrachi: Strength, surprise, earthquake, and boom. Jirachi is my least favorite revenge killer. It is simply weak (no moves over 80 BP). Simple as that.

    EVs/Nature: Despite what the analysis says, I need max spe to beat adamant gyara. Jolly versions are usually beaten by breloom, or kingdra and they most likely won’t KO me at full health.

    Other info/changes: Ice punch is a possibility so I don’t have to explode all the time.​

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    [​IMG]

    Mindgames (Heatran) @ Passho Berry
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 6 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
    Hasty nature (+Spd, -Def)
    - Fire Blast/Magma Storm
    - Earth Power/MS
    - Stealth Rock/Hidden Power
    - Explosion

    Strategy

    Heatran is the key here. Bring it in on something with high health that scarftran beats and either fire blast or earthpower the switch in. If they have blissey or vaporeon, they are likely to switch it in. From there, they see that azelf can already set up stealth rock, I have no LO recoil or lefties healing--->I’m choiced. Then I boom. Then kingdra’s counters are eliminated. Strangely enough, this beats nearly every water. It beats specs kingdra, starmie, suicune, swampert, gyarados, and vaporeon. Fire blast, earth power, and explosion are all needed for this set’s success. For filler, I have stealth rock again, just in case azelf dies early or has a bad matchup. Other than that, having HP ice to beat outrage locked dragons (jolly dragonite is a major problem). This heatran is the part of the central core of the team and is crucial to the team’s victory.

    EVs/Nature: Nothing unusual. Hasty is used to deal with water attacks. Timid is also useful, but one time vappy survived and bad things happened.

    Other info/changes: I've used basically every luring heatran. They all work under certain conditions and I regularly change the set, therefore all the slashes. Shuca as a possiblity. I have tried heatrap first, but it’s not reliable enough and if it misses or they bring in scarftar first, it won't work. MS features similar reliability problems but works over EP. Due to heatran’s crazy luring, it plays mindgames with the foe...​

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    [​IMG]

    Kyogre (Kingdra) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 6 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
    Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Rain Dance
    - Hydro Pump
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Signal Beam

    Strategy

    Finally, the monster of the team. With vaporeon and blissey/snorlax gone, tyranitar weakened, and set up fodder lured, this sea demon can sweep with one turn of set up. That’s it. Kingdra is usually left with ~35% of its health, enough to clean up the last 2-3 pokes of a team. Plain and simple. I can’t really describe how devastating it is. It’s usually over in a few turns. Hydro pump is needed for the force to beat metagross, rotom, and jirachi. 3 types resist water: grass, water, and dragon. All OU dragons lose to this except enemy kingdra who speed tie (hopefully lure and beaten). Grass types are beamed to death. Waters are the trickiest. Starmie and swampert are KOd. Gyarados usually tries to sweep early in the match, and 2 SRs + DP KO it. Rest talk sets are 3HKOd and can’t hurt me. Vaporeon is hopefully nonexistant. Suicune can’t KO me and is lured or 2HKOd. HP electric isn’t too useful, and signal beam helps me beat celebi and starmie. Life orb is needed to sweep. Damp rock doesn’t work. I don’t need anymore time; I either sweep or fall, and boosted water attacks hurt my team. The ultimate sweeper. One turn of setup, two uncommon easy to lure counters, little prediction/guessing to sweep. Suffer its wrath.

    EVs/Nature: Modest is needed for as much power as possible. I need as much spe even though 164 still beats flygon to tie with other kingra’s.

    Other info/changes: None really. Maybe surf or a timid nature, but calcs show modest to be better.​

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    Issues

    I do have some difficulties with Jolteon, jolly dragonite, and Gengar. Meta gets a surprise KO on gengar, but jolteon beats me by 1 point or something, so thats a bit of an issue. Empoleon is rare, but troublesome. Stall can be bad if I misplay breloom or fail to remove blissey successfully. My team is a bit slow and can have trouble with faster sweepers, but I can deal with them under most conditions. Again, I am considering switching breloom, but then I lose a good poke against stall and a fighting type...

    Conclusion

    This is probably one of my favorite post Latias teams and I am glad to have finally found a good ol’ final team to look back on when gen 5 gets here (soon). One quick shoutout to smogon in its entirety, helpful rates, ect. Without smogon I probably would have found my way onto serebii....
    Even after testing this team still has some flaws, so raters please rate!

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    [​IMG] @ [​IMG] # [​IMG] $ [​IMG] % [​IMG] & [​IMG]


    Note I will be gone to do HW, and I will check back in a bit. Thanks for reading!
  2. Eggbert

    Eggbert

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    24 hour bump if that's ok.
  3. Faladran

    Faladran
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

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    When I saw the RMT title, I definitely thought someone was attempting to use Ubers in OU, lol. Anyway, there is certainly a creative concept behind the team, and I must admit that this is the first competent team I have personally seen that utilizes Rain Dance Kingdra on a non-Rain Dance-based team.


    Notable Problems

    • Offensive Shaymin
    Of the common threats in the current metagame, this is the one that stood out to me most. A set utilizing Seed Flare, Earth Power, and Hidden Power Fire could potentially be difficult to play around. However, one viable strategy is to wear it down slightly with Life Orb recoil and residual damage, and then finish it off with a Meteor Mash from Metagross. The advantage to using Scarf Metagross is, as you have stated, its surprise value. Almost no one will expect a Metagross to outspeed them, and it really is quite commendable that you have added it to your team.

    Suggestions

    • Change Azelf's and Heatran's sets
    Life Orb Azelf is a unique and effective lead, so you may understandably be unwilling to change it. However, I feel that your lead match-ups and mid-game value with Azelf could be improved significantly with a couple of changes. First, try Choice Band on your Azelf lead:

    Azelf @ Choice Band
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 24 HP/232 Atk/252 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Explosion
    - U-turn
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Ice Punch

    Keep in mind that Zen Headbutt will allow you to retain your ability to OHKO lead Machamp, while the other moves are useful as well. Ice Punch gives you a way to hit Dragonite and Gliscor, and U-Turn will OHKO other Azelf. Also note that competent players will likely be using Colbur Azelf, which you outspeed every time. Explosion will OHKO even leads that resist it, such as Heatran, which will give you a way to prevent your opponent from setting up Stealth Rock. You can also keep Explosion for later in the match, to take down any major threats.

    Regardless of whether you choose to make this change or not, I also feel that Heatran's set could be tweaked slightly. Since it uses a resist berry, max speed is quite unnecessary here. Mild is arguably the most optimal nature, and Hidden Power Grass is a good option over Earth Power for hitting Swampert, unless you can consistently Earth Power opposing Heatran on the switch. Just remember to fit in Stealth Rock somewhere if you use CB Azelf, as you'll need a way to set it up.


    Good luck with your team!
  4. Eggbert

    Eggbert

    Joined:
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    You are completely right about shaymin, I usually have to scare it away/weaken it then use meta and it has caused some problems because of the fast earthpower. Fortunately this has happened only a few times due to shaymin's uncommonness.

    As for azelf, I have seen the power of the CB set, and considering heatran can rock I'll give it a test run. The only problem is that I want to limit the choice users because I am a bit weak to sub users, but with u-turn and explosion I don't see a problem.

    I've changed heatran's set alot but I am a bit paranoid about exploding on dragonite, crocune, and gyarados (sometimes crits ruin the passho effect). Heatran really doesn't stay around that long if I have the chance to KO a water type, so getting the explosion KO asap is really important. I have also tried hp grass and electric in the past, but aside from gyarados, they don't deal enough damage without life orb. If I like the CB azelf, heatran does have room for the important stealth rocks though.

    Thanks for the rate!
  5. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer pewpewpew
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    I think that this is an excellent team, although I was also wondering if someone was thinking of using Ubers in OU when I read the title. I also love the idea of setting up a Kingdra sweep. As for the idea of CB Azelf, I like it, but what will you do against Metagross leads? U-turn to Heatran? Even if you choose not to use CB Azelf as a lead, I would suggest putting SR on Heatran, just because Dragonite+Flygon will just KO you with EQ, and Explosion will kill them just as much as HP Ice will. I would also suggest Ice Beam > Signal Beam on Kingdra because it hits Shaymin harder, which you mentioned is a problem for your team, but Signal Beam does always OHKO Celebi, who could otherwise end your sweep. I like seeing Scarf Metagross; it's a novel idea and works well. Hope this helps!
  6. Cooltrainer

    Cooltrainer

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2009
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    Just something to consider:

    Vs Lead Metagross, you say you Fireblast first turn. With 8EVs invested in HP, Metagross will never OHKO you. However .. you take Life Orb Damage, and therefore they're almost guarenteed to KO you.

    Just wanted to make you aware of that. Most leads are Lum now anyway, so it shouldn't matter too much.

    Heatran is a great lure for bulky waters, and explosion works great because once Kingdra sets up that rain, Heatran really isn't needed.

    Nice team :D
  7. mudkipmanxp5

    mudkipmanxp5

    Joined:
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    Very solid team. Special rain-dance Kingdra is extremely underrated, especially on non-rain dance teams. And to be honest, it could probably sweep your whole team, if u lose the speed tie.

    IMO, the main problem for this team are fast, special attackers, like Jolteon, Shaymin, Gengar and Starmie (altho Heatran does have Passho Berry). Metagross can get surprise kills on them but can't switch in.

    I also feel that changing your Heatran to Magma Storm Heatran would help Kingdra sweep. It can still lure in bulky waters and kill them, but also has the added bonus of being able to trap and kill Blissey.
  8. NightShadow

    NightShadow

    Joined:
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    just a small problem. Roserade CAN set up a layer of Spikes/Toxic Spikes. You blow up, focus sash saves it, then it gets one spikes/t spikes, then you revenge kill it.

    brilliantly made team btw, love it!
  9. Eggbert

    Eggbert

    Joined:
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    Yea stealth rock has earned a spot on heatran because azelf doesn't set up too reliably. Ice beam is an interesting idea. I ran some calcs for it but there are a few issues: I actually lose to LOmie and celebi without signal beam. Ice beam helps but it still doesn't get the guaranteed OHKO (83 max). Signal beam is really just for starmie and celebi because it only deals 55% to shaymin. Thanks for the rate.

    You are right, I just have the 8 hp in case of trick scarf metagross leads or if fire blast misses, I can at least tie it 5-5. Thanks anyways though.

    If it has hydro pump and wins the speed tie, yes it can. Metagross can survive surf and I believe heatran can too, but yea it's incredibly deadly. Fortunately, rare.

    You are absolutely right about that.

    I have tested magma storm heatran the passho version but the only problem is that if I miss (it's like focus blast's cousin) then I will never eliminate the blissey or vaporeon. Also passho makes it easier to weaken water types like offensive suicune or starmie who can survive a dragon pulse are are fast. Thanks for the suggestion.

    That's true because usually I don't want to reveal metagross' set. I sometimes try to use heatran to bluff a scarf set since stealth rock isn't up yet. Thanks.
  10. SlyShady

    SlyShady

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    one nitpick - only 2 counters which are vaporeon and blissey? empoleon is easily the best counter to kingdra. especially since you're hitting it's higher defensive stat. you do mention it later in the RMT, but it is an important detail for sure.
  11. Eggbert

    Eggbert

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    Empoleon actually isn't a counter at all unless it is the calm version. The standard agility takes 54.2% - 64% from hydro pump in the rain, and can't hurt me back at all. The calm version is almost never seen.... (and still only manages a 3HKO)
  12. Eggbert

    Eggbert

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    Ok I tested the changes: (has some major changes and concerns, is this bump ok? Hasn't been more than two weeks inactive)

    -CB azelf has problems with metagross, as even u-turn + heatran's fire blast will not always take out metagross. Only the special variant can KO metagross. Also, I like to refrain from immediately exploding because azelf is useful mid game too. I am using U-turn now as it helps against other azelf (I usually outspeed colbur and CBsets).

    -Heatran is running stealth rock for this reason. The only problem is that if my opponent figures out that azelf does not have SR they will suspect heatran is not choiced and be more cautious with blissey/vaporeon.

    -Metagross: I am considering ice punch over explosion now. since half of my team can explode I can often lose important counters. Ice punch is a more reliable way to KO dragonite, but I do lose to kingra...

    -Kingdra: I might need to run surf. I have lost so many games that I had in the bag due to hydro piss.

    -Shaymin (if azelf is dead) and jolteon still run through this team if metagross is weakened.
  13. CRC

    CRC

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    Jun 3, 2010
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    heatran could actually cause a problem for this team...
    if it has dragon pulse, fire blast earth power, and substitute.

    rotom is realyl the only thing that can stop it, at it takes heavy damage form fire blast.

    If you face celebi and shaymin, then you are screwed.

    I honestly suggest replacing breloom. Replace it with machamp or infernape.

    Machamp is more durable and can handle heatran and shaaymin.

    Infernape is faster but can only revenge kill
  14. Jcpdragonx

    Jcpdragonx

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    When I used Kingdra, I used it as a mix sweeper.

    Kingdra @ LO
    Swift Swim
    EVs 92atk/252spatk/164spd
    Mild/Rash
    -Rain Dance
    -Draco Meteor
    -Hydro Pump
    -Waterfall

    This thing is so good. 164 speed EVs to out speed 100base scarfers (Flygon and Jirachi usually). Max SpAtk and the rest dumped into Atk. It may lose to Vappy, Celebi and other pokes who resist water, but it can destory over half the metagame. It also gives it a chance against Blissey and Snorlax.
  15. Philip7086

    Philip7086 Myuu
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Factory Headis a Past WCoP Winneris a SPL Winnerdefeated the Smogon Frontier

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    Rating by request.

    Hey Eggbert, nice team you have here. I always felt Rain Dance Kingdra was an underrated sweeper, so I applaud you for noticing the potential and building your team accordingly. To start off this rate, I wanted to point out a huge weakness that you have: Dragon Dance Dragonite. This thing can set up against Breloom or Metagross locked on Earthquake with ease and just sweep your entire team clean, especially versions with Dragon Claw over Outrage. To fix this, I would like to see you switch two roles on your team: Metagross and Rotom-A's. In other words, I think Rotom-A should be the Scarf revenge killing Pokemon, and Metagross should be the Life Orb wall breaker. Here are the two sets I have in mind for you:

    Rotom-A @ Choice Scarf
    Timid, 252 SpA, 252 Spe, 4 HP
    Levitate
    -Thunderbolt
    -Shadow Ball
    -Hidden Power [Ice]
    -Trick / Will-o-wisp

    and

    Metagross @ Life Orb
    Adamant, 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
    Clear Body
    -Meteor Mash
    -Thunderpunch
    -Earthquake / Zen Headbutt
    -Explosion

    I think that you'll find Scarf Rotom-A to be a more reliable revenge killer than Metagross, and Life Orb Metagross a better Water-type lure than Rotom-A. In fact, I doubt anybody in their right minds would leave their bulky waters in against Rotom-A, because that's just begging to get KOed, so I don't think Life Orb Rotom-A is very good at clearing the way for Kingdra. On the other hand, Life Orb Metagross is great at drawing bulky waters in who get destroyed by Life Orb Thunderpunch or Explosion. Metagross is also naturally bulky enough to take a few hits, so that's always a plus too. Anyways, with this change, I believe your team will be a lot more reliable in terms of checking offensive threats, and a lot more successful at breaking walls down. I hope you found this rate useful, and best of luck in the future!
  16. Smith

    Smith is a 90's bitch
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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    1,341
    Hey I got your message, really cool team actually. LO Kingdra is definitely under rated and well suited to dominate in this metagame. This team does have one defining problem, however:

    Yep yep and yep. Metagross really holds you together here but nothing else comfortably switches in. Basically your team is weak to the very formula you have mastered- fast, hard, diverse special attacks wreck the metagame to shreds. This list also includes opposing Kingdra. The problem here is that no single Pokemon really does well against all of these, except Blissey, whom doesn't really fit. The best thing that I can suggest would be to use a WishCM Jirachi over Metagross. This gives you a feasible response to the above threats as well as a pretty cool sweeper, nice offensive synergy with Kingdra. However, he doesn't really handle them any better than Metagross, so you may ask why I suggest it. Actually I just think the set's better, but the main answer is to allow you to scarf Rotom, because dual scarfs blows. Use a bulky set (meaning HP over special attack) as this provides a secondary check to the monsters, as well as just a better revenge killer and response to Agiligross.

    The problem with these suggestions is that Rotom can be pursuited, but the other set also invited that, plus bulky rotom can run will o wisp if you're that terrified. However overall I think Rotom is a better revenge killer than Metagross anyway. Alternatively you can even use a classic utility Metagross, as found here. Not as special defensive, but a much better check to Gengar is here. You never know when pursuit or some priority could come in handy! Overall though I feel Jirachi is probably better suited though.

    Excellent team, anti-metagame and innovative which I always like. Good luck!
  17. Eggbert

    Eggbert

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    1,076

    Yea by the looks of it and both rates, scarf rotom will help alot, this team has major problems against jolly dragonite, I usually have to hope it has outrage. I'll definitely try that out. I like the HP ice idea because it beats e-speed dragonite. I know the HP invest on rotom helps alot with LO meteor mashes. I'll just move around the EVs in the damage calculator to see the balance between KOing threats and bulk.

    As for the metagross spot I will have to test all three of the suggestions and see what one works. The LO set is really cool for weakening waters. The pursuit set is perfect for KOing gengar and starmie. And wishrachi works incredibly well with kingdra.

    Thank you guys for the help.

    late edits: From posters advice some changes have been made; I've been using hp ice scarf rotom and colbur azelf. As for the metagross spot, I've been using cmrachi mainly, but metagross works too. It's really a matter of what I'm playing against. Not much else to change.
  18. Harbleboy

    Harbleboy

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2009
    Messages:
    3
    I don't know how well it'll fit into the team, but I was personally thinking of putting a roserade into the equation in order to replace breloom. A scarfed version, possibly, despite the fact that gross is already a revenge killer.

    Roserade @ Choice Scarf
    Timid, 252 SpA, 252 Spe, 4 HP
    Leaf Storm
    Sludge Bomb
    HP Fire
    Sleep Powder

    You might find all that speed unnecessary and make it bulkier, or go with a different set altogether. I originally wanted to incorporate a subseed set, but I don't think that's aggressive enough based on the rest of the team. Basically, I'm not entirely sure what breloom really contributes to your team as a whole. Then again, I'm not too well-versed in the metagame, so I'm not sure what all roserade will contribute anyway.

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