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Unusual Items on Standard Sets

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by DTC, Sep 20, 2012.

  1. The Reptile

    The Reptile bug a best
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Sep 16, 2011
    Oh, right, forgot that Hail can be used in NU now, yeah Lefties seems like the way to go in almost all situations with SubBU (plus, you know, all the other stuff about +1 Speed not being too useful on SubBU.) tbh, I just brought it up because Salac Berry + Bulk Up seemed like a great combo. I'll definitely try that set out, it looks interesting.
  2. Nyara


    Nov 5, 2012
    Ditto @ Sitrus Berry/Leftovers
    EV's: Whatever, he's Ditto.
    - Transform

    Everyones use Ditto with Choice Scarf to outspeed it's "clon", but... it makes Ditto almost or completely useless if you're not copying a sweeper, then here we have a most balanced Ditto, making him able of forcing a switch to those sweepers who copy, making them to think Ditto will always outspeed them, and at the same time, makes him able to counterstall any wall, and makes him able to use a powerful surprise factor changing from one move to other on the worst moment for your opponent, or even if they somehow predict it, Ditto is copying you! He'll always leave a mark on any countender.

    Sitrus Berry works better if what do you want with it is to create the illusion that him's using Choice Scarf, because the opponent will don't know what items is carrying Ditto until they outspeed him (if that ever happens, you still have 50% chance to outspeed them, or if they switched their sweeper, you'll almost always outspeed) or they damage Ditto below the half. Also, Sitrus Berry can allow Ditto to create a Substitute on emergency circunstance, like the opponent leave him with 1-24% of HP, then Sitrus Berry will health you up and you'll set your substitute! Giving you sometimes an oportunnity to evade a status, or to set up and sweep or stall.

    Leafovers by other hand skips the "Look at me, I'll outspeed you!" bluff, and comes to a more balanced Ditto, Ditto can be able to stall or to sweep for more time with it, or to at least make him able to switch-in more offen if Stealth Rock/Spikes/Toxic Spikes are on the field.

    This change of item worked really well for me, at least, the surprise factor is good, but being able to use the 4 complete moveset of the enemy is sometimes great, and more when the unique way to win against some sweepers is setting up like they can.

    Of course, without Choice Scarf he's less able to Revenge Kill, and more against newbies who will just try to "outspeed you" all the time, but then here comes a smart play with it, you're copying something who can K.O itself on one turn? Have a plan B then. You're really needing to stop sweeps or sweep with Ditto? You'll only win the 50% of time, have a Plan B and C if you're unlucky or don't wanna take the risk. You opponent is smart enough to know if Ditto usually runs Choice Scarf or not? If he does, then surprise him, if you think he doesn't, then don't over predict it.
  3. FLCL

    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Mar 14, 2010
    What I don't like about that Ditto set is that you have to rely on luck to be able to beat the opponent. It also loses to a lot of opposing sweepers because of lack of a boosting item such as Eviolite, Life Orb, or Choice Band/Specs. Against walls, you will almost always have lower HP than them and only five PP in each of your moves, so I don't understand why you think you can outstall them.
  4. Nyara


    Nov 5, 2012
    Extra turns, extra switchs. You have 20 PP's to use and you can just switch out and comeback later. Ditto can restore it's PP an unlimited ammount of times, so, you can outstall any wall by the time goes. Also, almos all the walls have really bad attacks and have to rely on things like toxic, where the low HP ammount of Ditto just doesn't care. Almomola Scald against Alomomola? Nothing, and if it burns you, better, you can't get toxic in that way, similar circunstances happens to almost any wall on the complete tier, they just doesn't any way to outstall itself or counter itself, Ditto can just switch out and come back later for a new round of massive PP wasting and general distrupt to the opposing team, of course, Leaftovers works a lot better if you want to make Ditto more oriented to stall and distrupt, but Sitrus Berry works as 4 turns of Leafovers, can come handy if an accident happens (like critical hits and stuff), and the power to mimic a Choice Scarf gives you an extra surprise factor, who can win you a battle against a wall or a sweeper.

    Eviolite walls are rare, and their usually doesn't have attacking power at all, so, lowers Ditto's defense and HP is just not taking in account. Against Choice-Scarfers, even Ditto Choice Scarf will just win the half of time, and the other half you'll have a 5vs6, a total waste. Against Choice-Banded, you can try whatever of two things:

    - Ditto is able to take the hit and he's even more weak? Just stricke back with the same.
    - The opponent have a setup move and you can resist the attack? SET UP AND SWEEP.
    - The opponent is smart and he thinks you'll outspeed him? He'll switch most probably, and you do whatever you want, free turn!

    Also, Ditto will win always against it's copy if it had Life Orb as long Ditto is able to survive one attack (because the Life Orb recoil will leave it really prone to the K.O), and if it doesn't, well, you know him's moveset! Change to your favorite Pokémon who can handle the attack or move, on NU there really doesn't exist a Pokémon who is hard to counter, and less when you know already the moveset.

    Of course, the standar is Choice Scarf, but that's somewhat risky, too, just look: the opponent knows your moveset and knows you'll be choiced at it, that's excesive easy to abuse and get 1-2-3 free turns to do whatever thing, I Shell Smashed a lot of times abusing of Dittos doing that. Also, Ditto is prone to being totally useless if you eliminate the sweepers early, and a 6vs6 match is easier to win than a 5vs6 match.

    If the speed is excesive important, and what you fears can't OHKO you, you can use a Salac Berry, too, you'll get the needed speed almost always, and of course, you'll not even need it the 50% of times if you're revenge killing, and when you need it, you'll still get your revenge killing and pretty probable sweep, anyway, and if not, you're not choiced against walls and stuff, and you can use Ditto for a lot more of things than just a single role.
  5. tehy

    tehy Banned deucer.

    Aug 16, 2010
    With lefties ditto, you've basically got to switch into them, and then have the same pokemon, which means... you can be statused quite easily, while the opponent had the original advantage, being in a mirror match with a 1-move advantage. Meanwhile, the best-case scenario is that you both do the worst thing possible to each other-say,toxic. Sitrus berry is a nice bluff, but it's not really that useful of an item, while lefties can't bluff but is the most useful. He can outstall walls infinitely, but he has to keep switching out, which means that the wall can smack someone else as he comes in. Meanwhile, the opposing stall team is most likely aware of whatever pokemon they have most acutely, and has made sure to have great counters/checks to them. Eviolite walls are rare? I feel like tangela would have something to say about that. Copying a pokemon that's no good without eviolite means you're no good yourself. You yourself mention alomalola-what is lollier than an alomalola that isn't even that good defensively? You're setup bait AND killbait. And your passed wishes are weaker.

    Life orb gives a 30% boost to power, and detracts 10% hp. As long as the attack does a little bit more than 30%, having LO is better than not having it. Leftovers skews it a little harder, but if the attack does >50%, the LO gives him the advantage.

    You used scarf ditto as shell smash bait? Oh, no! Whatever WILL they do. Oh, hey scarf ditto... well, crap. The only thing you can really reliably set up on a scarf ditto is either bulkier boosts, or hazards.
    As for salac berry... how do you "almost always" manage to get down to <25% hp?

    Edit: Or it'll leave you... dead... And why use a lefties ditto as a revenge killer? Might as well just flip coins and have done with it. (Same goes for sitrus)

    You're right, it is a piece of cake. Know what's not a piece of cake? When he switches in later and steals your boosts.

    Copying his SR user is fine, but that means you'll only have a spinner if he does (And if he does, it's a much greater chance he'll have an accompanying spinblocker.) As for the wishpassing... again, copying alomalola means you have something with no offensive presence and rather little defensive presence. Wishpassing is not "Free", because you have to switch the passee into whatever powerful attack i'm about to use, or give me setup turns. Meanwhile, you just recovered 35% hp in two turns, not the most efficient idea. Also, now you get to replace SR? Great! So you get 1 more moveslot at the cost of a pokemon, good plan!

    What sweeper cannot KO ? Serously, it's mostly those that resist their own type, and if they can't ko themselves... you don't force them out, the epitome of a coin toss. Unless they have a boosting item, in which case they win. As for red card ditto... you set up to plus four? Fine, but you still have trouble Koing the copied pokemon. And all your attacks have 5 PP, so walls have the option of stalling you out rather easily. Not to mention it only works once and then it's back to the mirror match.

    So basically, ditto does nothing against tangela except either put it to sleep or get slept? Good to know. Oh yeah, and in a 1v1, tangela pwns ditto-tangela because of eviolite. So if you can switch to a steel-type and wall it, cool for you, but then ditto's just a pivot switch, and not a great one, either.
  6. Nyara


    Nov 5, 2012
    It's not likely Dittto had a huge HP ammount, almost any strong attack + hazard recoil will leave you below 25%, and more if your mere intention is use Ditto as just, and only Revenge Killer. And use Scarf Ditto as Shell Smash Bait is piece of cake, it just depends the moves you had and he copied, if you're, for example, copying a Pokémon who can't make nothing more than resisted hits on your Shell Smash User, he's done. If he's copying your Pokémon, K.O'ed one of yours, and you know you're totally able to resist that move on specific, he can't just do nothing except give you a wonderful Shell Smash Sweep. Well, the same can be said of any Choice-Scarf user, but with Ditto YOU KNOW he'll have Choice-Scarf, and even worst, you know what moves he had, so, it's the epitome of piece of cake prediction and free turns winning.

    And I actually winned more games with balanced Ditto than only-revenge-killer Ditto, it's just great to fill roles on your teams taking a member of your opponent, need Stealth Rock? Just copy him's Stealth Rock user, and you'll have an extra move on your original Stealth Rock user (and you know he'll have a Stealth Rock user), need Rapid Spin? Copy him's Rapid Spinner. Need to Wish someone? Copy Alomomola, granted, Ditto's Wishes are not the biggest ones, but you're still recovering 35%+ of the HP of any Pokémon, and by almost free. Need to cleric your team? Copy the cleric of your opponent, stall him a while, and when your PP is about to end, you use Aromatherapy/Hell Beal and switch.

    I finded of a lot of help a Ditto who's not choiced to something. LO Ditto is not very good, by other hand, Ditto will usually change a lot on mid match, and LO will destroy any durability it has. Again, the Revenge Killer function is no the unique function of Ditto, it can totally disturb a enemy team with other items (other good option is Red Card Ditto, if you're aiming for the sweep, just copy him's faster Pokémon who can't K.O itself on one round, he'll be forced to switch, and you'll have a free turn Set-UP or just to wreak havoc). Of course, any of those sets doesn't destroy at 200% him's potential as Revenge Killer, you're still having 50% chance of winning it if you're on a emergency, and if your opponent is smart, you can predict him and also win a free turn to wreak havoc.

    Also, the outcome of the Tangela VS is pretty strange, it mostly depends on who sleep before and Sludge Bomb, of course, it also wins the one who have already a sleeped Pokémon, and if both have a sleeped Pokémon... well, nothing to do at all, just switch to your favorite steel-type Pokémon because he'lll Sludge Bomb you, or you can try Sludge Bomb him, you'll still have a decent chance to survive the attack and leave Tangela prone to being revenge killed, and if you copied the offensive set, well, just change to whatever who doesn't care about him's attack, the selection is huge.
  7. skylight

    skylight nasty plot
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    May 14, 2011
    Musharna @ Rocky Helmet
    240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
    - Calm Mind
    - Moonlight
    - Psychic
    - Heal Bell / Signal Beam

    I've been using this for a few months-ish and I find it really useful for the many strong physical attackers in NU. Cinccino with Life Orb is not really an issue with it, given that if it is going to Tail Slap against something else just switch in Musharna and ya it's killed without you losing over half of your HP. It also makes Skuntank take a little damage from you when you switch out or attack it or something. It's also generally helpful against things like Sawk and Gurdurr who can take a little extra damage while trying to attack etc. Not so useful against things that really set up but can be useful in general given its defenses !!

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