UU Analysis Discussion Thread

Aerodactly has no reason to stay in against healthy Suicune, Flash Slowking (the "AA better because Flash" point is completely irrelevant. You are not switching Aero into Flash Slowking) or any other bulky Water-type, because it hates Scald. It's fairly obvious Aerodactly isn't going to get pp stalled 1v1ing Suicune, that's not how PP stall works and I'm not sure why you are mentioning that literally nonexistent scenario.
The point on Slowking was that Flash is a competitively viable move under certain situations that above average players recognize and use. As for the literally nonexistent scenarios, the point is there isn't really an existent situation where Aerodactyl would be PP stalled to the point where the difference between the two moves mattered outside of extremely absurd or unlikely circumstances.


PP stalling can a real issue in long games. Stallish teams tend to have longer than average games. Aerodactyl is a good Pokemon in stallish teams. PP stalling can be a real issue for Aerodactyl.
PP stalling is a real issue for Stone Edge on Aerodactyl.

You don't get PP stalled 1v1ing your counters. PP stall happens when you hit the opposite team dozens of times through a long game to wear it down slowly, force it to waste healing moves PP, stop it from creating easy win conditions. Bulky / Support Aerodactyl only has two moves to do this and it really needs Stone Edge because of its power, which means it has a fairly limited amount of PP, especially if it's running Aerial Ace. The difference between 40 PP and and 64 PP in PP stall wars is massive.
I personally suggested a defensive stall breaker Aerodactyl set be added to the analysis which was initially rejected here but apparently later added to the OO section. Outside of that mention in OO which doesn't even include EVs, the only EV's mentioned are for offensive purposes. There simply isn't a Bulky/Support Aerodactyl in the analysis. Mega Aerodactyl is also extremely unlikely to to be able to pull of the method of PP stalling you proposed for long enough before the PP difference between the two move would matter. This is because Mega Aerodactyl would succumb to those very methods first! Please note that Mega Aerodactyl would have to have 40 turns of attacks before the PP difference would matter. Lack of passive recovery from leftovers, weakness to SR, and taking attack damage would more than likely run Aerodactyl out of Roost PP long before the PP difference between Aerial Ace and Wing Attack would come into play.


Based on the fact that the sets provided in the Aerodactyl analysis are all primarily offensive oriented, the much higher probability of seeing accuracy lowering/evasion items in competitive play compared to situations where the PP difference would matter, and that more than likely Roost PP run out before the difference of PP between the two moves would matter in stall situations, I feel that Aerial Ace should be listed in the given analysis over Wing Attack.
 
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IronBullet

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When it comes down to it I agree with Hikari that PP is a much more valid reason than something so obscure like Flash or Brightpowder. I don't understand why Slowking is being brought into this - even if it is packing Flash (which I honestly don't see why it would, Slowking has much better options), Aero is going to lose whether it has Wing Attack or Aerial Ace. Anyway since the analysis suggests WA for all sets, I'm going to explain why it's preferred over AA and then add a mention of when AA would be beneficial.

More cms updates:

Salamence - Added Defog to the Life Orb set and renamed it All Out Attacker instead of Mixed Attacker because Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Defog / Roost is a perfectly viable moveset that has been popular recently. Offensive Defog Mence is not getting a separate set because we don't think it plays differently enough from regular Mence to warrant it - it's basically just offensive Mence with Defog slapped on.

Hydreigon - Slashed Draco Meteor on the stallbreaker set.

Cloyster - Added a set utilising Spikes / Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin to OO.

Feraligatr - Made Ice Punch the primary slash for Dragon Dance as it's way more popular than Sub.

Galvantula - Added Specs and LO to OO.

Mega Aggron - Added Fire Punch and Rock Polish to OO.

Mega Blastoise - Added Whirlpool to OO.

Blastoise - Added Refresh to OO.

Chesnaught - Added Swords Dance to OO.

Cobalion - Added Salac Berry to OO and Thunder Wave to the support set.

Lucario - Mentioned Pursuit support and recommended Jolly if running Earthquake or Crunch to outspeed Chandelure.

Mamoswine - Changed primary slash to Jolly.

Infernape - Added Flame Charge to OO.

Krookodile - Changed primary item for the non-CB attacker to Dread Plate and mentioned Rocky Helmet.

Mienshao - Added HP Ice to the LO set and added Aerial Ace and Black Belt to OO.

Nidoking - Added Taunt to OO and mentioned Shadow Ball and Focus Blast for the main set.

Nidoqueen - Changed the primary Speed EVs to 76 to outspeed Cune and Gligar with a mention of the faster spread. Slashed Thunderbolt in the offensive set.

Mega Beedrill - Added Pursuit to OO.

Mega Sceptile - Slashed Giga Drain with Energy Ball and Focus Blast with HP Fire.

Roserade - Added Choice Scarf, Weather Ball, and Spikes Suicide Lead to OO.

Rotom-H - Made Thunderbolt primary slash for Specs set over HP Grass.

Mega Sharpedo - Made Waterfall primary slash over Hydro Pump and added Taunt to OO.

Sharpedo - Added special set of HP / Ice Beam / Dark Pulse to OO.

Tentacruel - Added Giga Drain and Swords Dance to OO.

Will edit all of this and Bouff's stuff into the OP soon!

bouffedit: i added sprites to da op to make it a bit easier on the eyes, helps doods find what they're lookin for oO
 
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Ununhexium

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Would anyone support the removing of Swords Dance as a slash on Feraligatr's Dragon Dance set? Like it works in theory but I don't think I've ever seen it used over Substitute or Ice Punch
 

IronBullet

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Would anyone support the removing of Swords Dance as a slash on Feraligatr's Dragon Dance set? Like it works in theory but I don't think I've ever seen it used over Substitute or Ice Punch
Did this, Bouff and I agree that it's not as common or as useful as the other options. Thanks!
 

Ununhexium

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  • On Entei can Bulldoze at least get a mention in moves or OO to hit Rhyperior and Mega Ampharos a bit harder
  • In Gligar's analysis, it doesn't once mention Porygon2 as a partner, so we should fix this before omfuga has a breakdown
  • Do you think maybe Specs Hydreigon maybe deserves its own set? It has the advantage of hitting things a bit harder, not being worn down by LO, and can run U-turn
  • Should Lucario always be running a +Speed nature? To quote dodmen , "In a metagame with Heracross, Gatr, Mamoswine, Nidoking, and Entei, NP Lucario would basically always prefer to run Timid." Should this hold true for SD as well? (it needs to be changed either way). Also I think dodmen said Focus Blast deserves a slash too
  • I think Poison Jab should get a mention on Scarf Mienshao because Florges and Whimsicott are everywhere
  • Milotic's analysis does not mention how it's a decent check to Suicune and Feraligatr, which I think needs to be fixed
  • Rotom-H's defensive set is running a ton of Speed. Can we decrease the Speed on the suggested spread because it already handles Honchkrow decently well and mention the current spread as an alternate in set details?
  • Can Power-Up Punch be mentioned in OO on Swampert? I've never used it myself but it seems like a decent option (especially with outside rain support) to boost up to deal more damage. I know it's really niche but it might deserve OO
I just posted here because they were kind of subjective. If you give me the go ahead I can do these myself :)

I need a new hobby :|
 
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Bulldoze vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 118-141 (27.2 - 32.5%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 98-116 (22.6 - 26.7%)

Bulldoze doesn't even 4hko with lefties, you'd much rather go for the burn. Same with Tenta and Mega Amph (offensive and defensive, both are pressured by burn way more than by a few % extra damage). SF also 3hkos tenta with a burn. Bulldoze > Flare Blitz also means 2hkoing Reuniclus is a roll.

On the fence about Specs Hydreigon but leaning towards yes it deserves its own set.

Focus Blast should definitely be on Lucario's NP set. My go-to examples:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 415-489 (102.7 - 121%)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 277-328 (68.5 - 81.1%)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert: 430-508 (126 - 148.9%)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert: 286-339 (83.8 - 99.4%)

It's also better for checking Snorlax since unboosted Aura Sphere doesn't 2hko lol. In fact imo Focus Blast should be the main move listed there with Aura Sphere below "for a more accurate option". Timid > Modest.

Poison Jab should be in Moves for Scarf if it's not already there for Shao. Should be a main move on the LO set however.

Neutral on everything else.
 

Ununhexium

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252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Bulldoze vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 118-141 (27.2 - 32.5%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 98-116 (22.6 - 26.7%)

Bulldoze doesn't even 4hko with lefties, you'd much rather go for the burn. Same with Tenta and Mega Amph (offensive and defensive, both are pressured by burn way more than by a few % extra damage). SF also 3hkos tenta with a burn. Bulldoze > Flare Blitz also means 2hkoing Reuniclus is a roll.
sorry didnt calc it lol
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 415-489 (102.7 - 121%)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 277-328 (68.5 - 81.1%)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert: 430-508 (126 - 148.9%)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert: 286-339 (83.8 - 99.4%)

It's also better for checking Snorlax since unboosted Aura Sphere doesn't 2hko lol. In fact imo Focus Blast should be the main move listed there with Aura Sphere below "for a more accurate option". Timid > Modest.

Poison Jab should be in Moves for Scarf if it's not already there for Shao. Should be a main move on the LO set however.
will do!
 

nv

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  • Rotom-H's defensive set is running a ton of Speed. Can we decrease the Speed on the suggested spread because it already handles Honchkrow decently well and mention the current spread as an alternate in set details.
Imo the Speed is necessary as while it does check Honchkrow decently without the Speed, it is moreso to get the jump on Tentacruel and other mons that creep Adamant Honchkrow. If you feel that isn't worthy, then we can find a different spread (maybe enough Speed to outpace something like 12 Speed EVs to speed creep 16 Speed Cune or something idk). Otherwise, I am neutral on this (and I am the one who did the analysis, so...lol)
 

LeoLancaster

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Not QC of course, but I prefer running enough speed to outpace Jolly Mamoswine on Rotom-H (208 spe Timid). The loss of bulk isn't too noticeable (you take about 4.5% more from Mamo's Icicle Crash, for example, and both 124+ def and 52 def can only switch into Crash once if SR is up both times), and the extra speed is helpful to prevent stuff like Feraligatr and Mega Swampert from taking advantage of you since you can wisp before they can move.
 

IronBullet

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CMS updates:

Porygon2 - Mention of Gligar as partner.

Mienshao - PJab in set details for Scarf and slashed for LO.

Lucario - Focus Blast as a slash and Timid nature as primary nature for NP.

Rotom-H - Changed primary spread to 248 HP / 52 Def / 208 Speed Timid to outspeed Gatr and Mamo and burn them before they can attack. Kept a mention of the previous spread in set details.

Milotic - Added mentions of Suicune and Gatr.

Swampert - Added Power-Up Punch to OO.

Slowking - Removed mention of Empoleon in C&C as all it can really do is phaze while it gets slowly worn down, GK barely does enough. Slowking can simply CM up as it switches in, fish for Scald burns and repeat, because with Regenerator Emp isn't doing jack to Slowking. Also changed primary defensive spread to 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD Bold.
Slowking's current primary set in the analysis is this:

Slowking @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Scald
- Slack Off
- Dragon Tail
- Calm Mind / Psyshock / Thunder Wave

I've never used this spread or set. I always use 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD Bold, with a moveset of Scald / Slack Off / Psyshock / Thunder Wave. For me, Thunder Wave is mandatory on defensive Slowking as it adds a lot to its utility and lets it cripple and stall out many offensive threats. I think Scald / T Wave / Slack Off should be compulsory with the last slot going to one of Psyshock / D Tail / Ice Beam. Calm Mind has no place on this set when there's a separate defensive sweeper set on the analysis.

The current EVs let it be only 3HKOed by Nidoqueen while a fully physically defensive set will be 2HKOed. However, I think the extra Defense EVs add a lot more to its defensive capabilities:

252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 166-196 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 296-350 (75.3 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 168-198 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Slowking's primary focus, being a bulky Water, should be soaking up physical hits and especially Fire-type moves, particularly with the majority of the top threats being physical attackers. With the original spread, Mega Swampert and Darm 2HKO while Mega Aero OHKOs. So I definitely think the primary spread should be 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD, with a moveset of Scald / Slack Off / Psyshock / Thunder Wave with slashes of Ice Beam and Dragon Tail. It still tanks special hits from the likes of LO Mence and Dragalge pretty well, while thanks to its common special weaknesses Pokemon like Hydrei, Rotom-C, and Shaymin are going to beat it anyway.

Thanks everyone!
 
Moltres needs a revamp. When it was popular in RU its same set was put into UU for analysis. A scarf set is also viable in UU. I think stall players have been using pressure stall on it as well. Main set needs wilo or ancient power over hidden power grass. We only have 4 (3 if shuckle drops) rock types in the tier and the two that are common are neutral to hp grass. Wilo-wisp is better. Ancient power hits Mega aero and rotom-h.
 

IronBullet

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Moltres needs a revamp. When it was popular in RU its same set was put into UU for analysis. A scarf set is also viable in UU. I think stall players have been using pressure stall on it as well. Main set needs wilo or ancient power over hidden power grass. We only have 4 (3 if shuckle drops) rock types in the tier and the two that are common are neutral to hp grass. Wilo-wisp is better. Ancient power hits Mega aero and rotom-h.
Slashed WoW as an alternative to HP Grass and added Ancient Power to OO, thanks Spoofy! Regarding a full revamp though, like Bouff said in the Reservation thread one was uploaded only a couple of months ago and not much has changed since then to warrant another. Scarf is viable but doesn't deserve its own set as Moltres has to give up up power and coverage, which are its greatest assets. Sub Toxic is mentioned in OO which is enough really.
 

IronBullet

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CMS edit: Replaced Escavalier's Assault Vest set with a Leftovers one. As explained by dodmen here, AV Esca simply gets worn down too quickly in conjunction with hazards, leaving it unable to check the likes of Reuni, Venomoth, Whimsi, and Kyurem effectively. With an EV spread of 248 / 56 Atk / 204 SpD though, it has sufficient special bulk and attack to still check these threats while gaining the ability to stick around much longer thanks to Lefties. Running Lefites also allows Esca to run Protect for scouting purposes and a free turn of recovery, or Toxic to nail bulky stuff that checks it like Mence, Arcanine, and Chesnaught. Kept a mention of AV in Set Details. Thanks dod for bringing this up!
 

IronBullet

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Swampert:
  • Slashed Power-Up Punch alongside Ice Punch for the Mega RD set, removed SR and added mentions of Superpower, Ice Beam, and Sludge Wave.
  • Removed Superpower from the main Mega SR set but kept a mention of it. Added Ice Beam and Sludge Wave too.
  • Added a mention of Ice Beam to the regular SR set.
 

Take Azelfie

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Zoroark analysis should have mentions of Sludge Bomb now, it doesn't neccesarily need a revamp since it is pretty up to date and smooth but maybe someone can go over some of the sets and add mentions of what Sludge Bomb does throughout. If you feel a revamp is in need I'll take it
 

Cynde

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Why isnt shadow ball used over dark pulse on porygon z? Everywhere on the analysis it says dark pulse but shadow ball hits everything neutrally including cobalion and lucario so wouldnt that make it the better option?
 
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Ununhexium

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Why isnt shadow ball used over dark pulse on porygon z? Everywhere on the analysis it says dark pulse but shadow ball hits everything neutrally including cobalion and lucario so wouldnt that make it the better option?
Tri Attack hits just as hard as neutral Shadow Ball and Dark Pulse can flinch what Shadow Ball hits
 
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Shadowball is better on non choiced p2s because you have the drop chance when they switch into something that takes a shadowball and then you can procede to hit with stab. Choiced is better off with the flinch chance.
 
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Take Azelfie

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Didn't realize I had made the reservation before I actually made a post here, well yh like I said it is very outdated and hasn't been touched since X&Y here are some sentences directly from the on site analysis.
  • In XY, Ferroseed gained a new resistance to Fairy, but sadly, it lost two resistances to Dark and Ghost.
  • In addition, it doesn't want to stay in Taunt users such as Sableye and Azelf, as the former can wear Ferroseed out with Will-O-Wisp and the latter can KO it with Fire Blast.
  • Do not stay in on Knock Off users such as Sableye, because Ferroseed's longevity will be greatly hindered if it loses its Eviolite.
As well is doesn't mention anything about being able to take Outrages or Draco Meteors from some of tiers most threatening Dragon Types nor does it mention anything about being able to take steel type attacks from some pokemon such as Aggron and Doublade. I'll delete my post in the res until it gets updated.

Oh yh also it gets Knock Off now, enough said.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/ferroseed/uu/
 

IronBullet

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Added Shadow Ball to the P-Z analysis and Bouff will be editing mentions of Sludge Bomb for Zoroark soon, thanks SlaySlenderDragon XD!

Regarding Ferroseed, we decided to just take down its analysis. It was relevant enough in XY which was why it received one in the first place, but at this point I think it makes sense to remove its outdated analysis rather than revamp it seeing as it barely has a niche in the current metagame and doesn't even have a place on the viability rankings.
 
i added in the sludge bomb stuff for fox

p sure that analysis was made back when it was still uu so it had to get one, i obviously dont have a problem with removing it, ill wait to see if the other mods have anything different to say in case im missing something though.
 

IronBullet

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Yeah went ahead and removed Trev, it only got an analysis because it was UU at the time but right now it's pretty much non-existent and has little viability. Thanks for spotting it!
 
Rule out what you want but I'm going to be proposing a few things

Absol: Protect in OO. 75 base speed is really low especially if adamant. Gets off mega safely so you can use that magic bounce mind shinanigans. Get speed without risk like houndoom and beedrill.

Aerodactyl-Mega: Adamant for slash on All Out Attacker set. Florges 2hko after rocks. KOs other mons after hone claws like Ferg

Aggron-Mega: Ice Punch in OO. Get super effective damage on defoggers. Block dragon hits and hit back. Dont t wave lum sally just kill it.

Ampharos-Mega: Hidden Power Fire in OO or slashed with Focus blast. Does damage to whimi and kills custap forry before it sets up rocks.

Arcanine: Defensive set can have toxic and wilo. It is a shame when you wall fire types but can't do anything back. I would put Toxic slash on row 4 with espeed and roar. Maybe even take roar out. In the offensive set we have the stinky LO plus recoil. CB is better at this job than LO. Second slash if not first.

Azelf: Three attacks LO rocks inst in a main set and it should be. You could slash Nastly Plot for rocks but then the set would be named Nastly Plot wrongly. I find energyball more useful than dazzle. It kills krook, mamo, and swampert turn 1. Also does herty damage to blastoise spinner which is a scenario you bump into a bit with azelf.

Bs and Cs later
 

Take Azelfie

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Some things I caught while looking at analysis

Revamps

Gourgeist Super
The onsite analysis looks really lazy, a revamp could be done.
Poliwrath
RestTalk seems like a really bad set IMO
Vivillon
I don't even remember when Victini was in the tier. Revamp or remove?
Gastrodon
Celebi in overveiw and grass types C&C also mentions Jirachi a few times [3] Maybe a total revamp is better although it doesn't say it was X&Y it has key clues to signifying it was made then
Mega Banette
hasn't been updated since X&Y but Mega Banette still has its proper niche (honestly think its underrated)

Some small things I caught looking at analysis
Dugtrio (it also has Hippo mentions)
Rhyperior (has Mega Pidgeot mention in OO)
Granbull (Mega Pid mention in C&C Strong Special Attackers+
Virizion (has a mention of Alakazam in revenge killers)
Durant (in revenge killers I think it meant to say Rotom-H instead of C)
 

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