For the Butterfly Dance sweeper set, I think the moves should be FlyDance / Bug Buzz / Sleep Powder / HP Fighting. With HP Fighting, Heatran and Lucario each get hit 2x supereffectively, and you get a neutral hit on Skarmory at least. Fighting might not be individually as good as Ground, but you gotta be able to hit Skarm. Plus, Bug/Fighting combined with Tinted Lens pretty much gets neutral coverage on almost anything, doesn't it?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Venomoth
- Thread starter Pgirts
- Start date
Gengar 4X resists Bug and is immune to fighting so I guess Bug buzz would be 2x resistant with Tinted Lens right? Come to think of it Gengar is immune to HP Ground too so that sucks. T_T
Oh yeah.
....crap, man, that sucks. Bug friggin' doesn't get good 2-move coverage with anything. >.>
I guess the ButterflyPass set is gonna be the only thing that really makes him that worth using, then. o___0 ...unless we discover something else....?
Crobat comes to mind as well. 4x resistant to bug and 4x resistant to Fighting and also immune to HP Ground.
Its not all bad though. If you're able to Butterfly Dance enough Psychic coming from him could dent them. As long as Crobat doesn't Brave Bird you.
Its not all bad though. If you're able to Butterfly Dance enough Psychic coming from him could dent them. As long as Crobat doesn't Brave Bird you.
I do not mean to repeat myself, but Bug Buzz + Psychic gets perfect neutral coverage and features higher BP than HP.
^You said that with such certainty that I actually looked at the type chart to confirm that bug and psychic both get resisted by steel.
P.S. Resistances confirmed.
P.S. Resistances confirmed.
...buuuut.... well first I don't pretend to not realize that the person saying this really quite seems to know what he's talking about, but... is it possible that, when factoring Tinted Lens, that this is (almost) true...?
Heatran... Lucario... Gengar... Skarmory... ....doesn't Psychic technically deal a neutral hit on them with Tinted Lens? Or am I just neurotic? >.>
If you're factoring tinted lens, you really don't need psychic do you? If you run into heatran or something, just pass to a dragon. You'll outspeed even scarfed versions given max speed evs. Scarf gengar is the only problem you'll run into, and weavile/ttar/scizor all make short work of it.
And i don't mean to be lame with comparisons, but venomoth shouldn't be used as a sweeper while urugamoth exists and tiering doesn't. Uruga outclasses it in every way as a sweeper. Luckily, gengar and heatran probably won't be in UU, unless haunter becomes popular for whatever reason.
And i don't mean to be lame with comparisons, but venomoth shouldn't be used as a sweeper while urugamoth exists and tiering doesn't. Uruga outclasses it in every way as a sweeper. Luckily, gengar and heatran probably won't be in UU, unless haunter becomes popular for whatever reason.
The thing about Tinted Lens is that you have to use coverage moves to hit Pokemon that are 4x resistant to your STABs. Since Pokemon like Gengar, Skarmory, and Heatran are the only things that are 4x resistant or immune to Bug/Poison, Psychic is a fine choice to hit them for neutral damage. As far as neutral coverage goes, Bug Buzz and Psychic hit everything for at least neutral damage. Things like Heatran and Specially Defensive Skarmory can probably still take your attacks, but that's what Sleep Powder is for.
I really think that Venomoth's best set is probably BD/Bug Buzz/Sleep Powder/Baton Pass because you can still take out one of your counters, Baton Pass the boosts, and come back late game to sweep with a nearly unresisted STAB attack.
I really think that Venomoth's best set is probably BD/Bug Buzz/Sleep Powder/Baton Pass because you can still take out one of your counters, Baton Pass the boosts, and come back late game to sweep with a nearly unresisted STAB attack.
Venomoth has always suffered from bad defense. But the set up seems pretty simple.
Come in on something slower than Venomoth on Toxic / a Fighting or Grass move (etc.). Use Sleep Powder. Butterfly Dance and sweep.
Sadly Moth has terrible coverage and Bug + Psychic isn't going to scare much. (I'm not really sure why Psychic is listed as one of the "required" moves. It sucks.)
Come in on something slower than Venomoth on Toxic / a Fighting or Grass move (etc.). Use Sleep Powder. Butterfly Dance and sweep.
Sadly Moth has terrible coverage and Bug + Psychic isn't going to scare much. (I'm not really sure why Psychic is listed as one of the "required" moves. It sucks.)
With Tinted Lens he'll be at least dealing neutral coverage to everything and this is presumed hes gotten some Butterfly Dances kicked in, he can possibly and hopefully sweep.
The problem is, something will usually have killed him before he gets the chance to do that. :0 No, I think DDRmaster has it right when he says that the ButterflyPass set is Venomoth's best.
This is true, unfortunately. This is why I think having a +Speed nature and getting in that Sleep Powder is vital in at least getting him more than one BD.
Another problem is Erufuun and Boruturosu. Erufuun encores you, paralyzes you, then switches to a phaser or revenge killer, while Borutorosu taunts you, doesn't die to +1 Bug Buzz, then switches to a revenge killer.
But honestly, like I said earlier, Veno's true shortcoming is its frailty and typing. It dies before it can do anything, even after the spdef boost. There are more stuff that can OHKO it on these standard teams than sleep clause allows you to deal with. You start to realize that a baton passer and a receiver can be combined into one (urugamosu) and that frees you up a valuable team slot.
But honestly, like I said earlier, Veno's true shortcoming is its frailty and typing. It dies before it can do anything, even after the spdef boost. There are more stuff that can OHKO it on these standard teams than sleep clause allows you to deal with. You start to realize that a baton passer and a receiver can be combined into one (urugamosu) and that frees you up a valuable team slot.
One has to imagine Venomoth will be a reasonable choice in the lower tiers once they emerge.
While it's stats and secondary offensive STAB pale in comparison to Urugamosu's, it is certainly a somewhat competent user of Buttterfly Dance.
Tinted lens STAB Bug Buzz gives it something over Doreida who can also run Sleep Powder and has higher natural SpA.
While it's stats and secondary offensive STAB pale in comparison to Urugamosu's, it is certainly a somewhat competent user of Buttterfly Dance.
Tinted lens STAB Bug Buzz gives it something over Doreida who can also run Sleep Powder and has higher natural SpA.
The problem with erufuun is true, but what set up pokemon doesn't have a problem with being taunted/encored by erufuun? And erufuun shouldn't hurt him in the lower tiers, where sleep powder and baton pass should serve him well. Also, he gets toxic spikes, which is cool (Sleep Powder -> Toxic Spikes -> dead)
I meant with Tinted Lense, obviously. And as there are no double-steel types, Bug/Psychic is unresisted.
Shedinja? :D
I just tested this thing on PO. It's going to be a very good pokemon in UU. With the amount of Fighting and Grass types running around around in the lower tiers it should have no problem getting a BD under it's belt. I'm looking forward to all these bugs abusing the best set up move in the game :)
