VGC 2016 Viability Rankings

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ok here's some nominations to get this thread going again

tornadus for C+ (I don't have any experience with this but from what I can see it's just a worse talonflame/crobat)
blaziken for D (too many things resist its attacks and it can't do much to all the top legendaries)
latios for D (what niche does this thing have when it can't even have soul dew?)
gyarados for C- (I guess it's an intimidator that resists groudon but it can't do a whole lot back)
lando-i for C- (good in theory, shit in practice, and means you can't use the far superior lando-t)
gastrodon for C- (yeah ok it's immune to water spouts and can redirect scalds, but kyogres' ice beams still sting a lot and gastro can't do shit back. If you're using this to redirect water attacks then it's just bad since the only ones you'll be seeing with any frequency come off of kyogre, and 2/3 of them are spread)
mega lopunny for D (kangaskhan is just straight up better in every way besides speed)
breloom for D (what does this do besides die immediately)
all of C- to D or unranked (these are all just bad)
scizor to B (has been seeing a lot more use as a xerneas check. Not as good as ferro, but priority is great and it also has access to feint)
gengar to A- (it's on the same level as togekiss and liepard in terms of support, I feel)
ditto to C- (when has this ever seen serious use? if you want to use transform cheese, use smeargle instead, since then you can actually control who you transform into)
kyurem-white to B (has been seeing a lot of success on gravity teams)
 

Take Azelfie

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ok here's some nominations to get this thread going again

tornadus for C+ (I don't have any experience with this but from what I can see it's just a worse talonflame/crobat)
blaziken for D (too many things resist its attacks and it can't do much to all the top legendaries)
latios for D (what niche does this thing have when it can't even have soul dew?)
gyarados for C- (I guess it's an intimidator that resists groudon but it can't do a whole lot back)
lando-i for C- (good in theory, shit in practice, and means you can't use the far superior lando-t)
gastrodon for C- (yeah ok it's immune to water spouts and can redirect scalds, but kyogres' ice beams still sting a lot and gastro can't do shit back. If you're using this to redirect water attacks then it's just bad since the only ones you'll be seeing with any frequency come off of kyogre, and 2/3 of them are spread)
mega lopunny for D (kangaskhan is just straight up better in every way besides speed)
breloom for D (what does this do besides die immediately)
all of C- to D or unranked (these are all just bad)
scizor to B (has been seeing a lot more use as a xerneas check. Not as good as ferro, but priority is great and it also has access to feint)
gengar to A- (it's on the same level as togekiss and liepard in terms of support, I feel)
ditto to C- (when has this ever seen serious use? if you want to use transform cheese, use smeargle instead, since then you can actually control who you transform into)
kyurem-white to B (has been seeing a lot of success on gravity teams)
Torn agree
Blaziken could just be unranked tbh
As much as I want to disagree with this bring it down... okay maybe put it C-
Gyarados agree
Lando-I agree
Gastrodon agree
Mega Lop agree
Brelloom agree
Agree with dropping everything EXCEPT Mega Scizor because if you don't have a mega for some reason you can always just put it
Gengar agree
Ditto could be put in D, low HP against legends pretty much means it will always die first in a 1v1 scenario
Kyurem White could go to B+ because Gravity is a stupid move, and Kyurem White is a stupid Mon especially since its

My own nominations
Ferrothorn
A- ---> B+

Yes this is one of the best answer to Xern and POgre but the problem is that it barely has any support to give off outside of Thunder Wave and maybe Worry Seed. Not to mention is gets oblterated by Primal Groudon. It can't pull its weight if you opponent doesn't have a good match up unlike other support Pokemon who can pretty much be brought to every single game.
Cresselia
A ---> A+

IMHO Cresselia is the best bulky support Pokemon. It has amazing HP and Defenses with sustain and a variety of tools (Gravity, Skill Swap, Icy Wind, Trick Room, Thunder Wave, Helping Hand) and it can fit onto any archetype. When I say any I mean any which pretty much just says that this Pokemon can fit onto any team it wants to. That level of splashibility is ridiculous.
 
breloom for D (what does this do besides die immediately)
ditto to C- (when has this ever seen serious use? if you want to use transform cheese, use smeargle instead, since then you can actually control who you transform into)
you actually do pick the mon you transform into, it's always the one across from ditto lol. dont get me wrong im not trying to defend it bc it's really awful but still
I agree with that entire post except for loom. Loom is like a slower smeargle (give it a sash if you're afraid of it dying so quickly) that hits kanga and slower pogres and doesn't miss its sleeps. It also just has an offensive presence in general which smeargle lacks unless it transforms into its partner/opp so it can be taunted and still be worth something.
 
I've been very intrigued with Mega Metagross in this format. Seen it do well in a couple events already.

Curious, what the EVs are needed to make it "viable" in VGC 16? Seems like a difficult one to make work, but it seems like a perfect Xerneas counter.
 
I've been very intrigued with Mega Metagross in this format. Seen it do well in a couple events already.

Curious, what the EVs are needed to make it "viable" in VGC 16? Seems like a difficult one to make work, but it seems like a perfect Xerneas counter.
I haven't ventured into '16 yet but MegaGross is still the first Mega I intend to use. The base 108 benchmark doesn't seem to exist in 16, Mienshao was the only thing ever worth a damn at 105 and doesn't exist, Garchomp... probably doesn't exist, despite a good shot at Pdon, so tbh, I'd run something like:

Metagross @ Mega
Jolly, 20 HP, 252 Atk, 4 Def, 36 Sp. Def, 196 Speed
Ability: Clear Body (Tough Claws)

- Iron Head
- Protect
- Ice Punch
- Bullet Punch / Zen Headbutt

Outruns max Speed Garchomp once Mega'd, non-mega is shit but outruns max Speed (non-mega) TTar I guess. Keeps ahead of Xerneas, Kangaskhan, Palkia, etc. Max attack for smashing shit, defenses explained in calcs, and Bullet Punch vs Zen headbutt is up to preference. Bullet Punch wrecks Xern with Iron Head + bullet Punch no matter how bulky, even if it Geomancy's before MegaGross is on the field, and Bullet Punch also makes a joke of Mawile and Khan by dodging Sucker Punch. Zen headbutt 2HKO's Primal Kyogre and Palkia.

defensively:

252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 20 HP / 36 SpD Mega Metagross in Heavy Rain: 133-157 (84.1 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 20 HP / 36 SpD Mega Metagross: 123-145 (77.8 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 20 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 120-140 (75.9 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 20 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 138-164 (87.3 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 20 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 102-124 (64.5 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 20 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 138-166 (87.3 - 105%) -- 20.3% chance to OHKO (Dark Aura)
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 20 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 122-144 (77.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Dark Aura OHKOs)
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 20 HP / 36 SpD Mega Metagross: 106-126 (67 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Hidden Power Ground vs. 20 HP / 36 SpD Mega Metagross: 136-160 (86 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

offensively:

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 82-97 (52.2 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 204-242 (101.4 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 102-122 (50.7 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 124-148 (68.5 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Rayquaza: 51-60 (28.1 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Ice Punch -> Bullet Punch is 96.6% minimum to Mega Ray.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Primal Kyogre: 106-126 (51.2 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Palkia: 99-117 (60 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Should pair really nice with Primal Kyogre. Helps keep Pdon off Metagross' balls and Thunder breaks Yveltal / opposing Kyogre while Ice from both beats Ray. Dialga is a bitch.
 
Hello all! my name's Max and I'm new to the VGC 2016 group (VGC 2015 was a lot of fun) and I have a quick question I would like someone to answer for me nothing super serious or anything but what happed to Aegislash? last I heard he was an great user of wide guard and a fantastic offensive check to Mega Kangaskhan and now I don't see him anywhere? what outclasses him nowadays or did PDon just screw him over that hard?

EDIT: Also why did Ho-oh drop from A-? yes RayOrgre but by that logic you might as well move Ferrothorn down as well for not doing shit against the big 6
 

Jibaku

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Aegislash simply has a difficult time keep up with the offensive pressure in this meta. Still not a bad support but fitting it in to a team is difficult; you're usually better off with other Steel pokemon like Bronzong or Mawile.

Ho-Oh suffered from many metagame adjustments that just didn't favor it; it's not just RayOgre. Consider this:

Ho-Oh was popular in January when the primary archetype used Special Groudon + Xerneas. And also because Jon Hu won the first stacked PC with it. Since then, however, the metagame decided to really go out on its way to make Ho-Oh miserable.

In February, Double Primal began to rise. The archetype often featured Groudon with Rock moves, or with Gravity support, in anticipation of the archetype's own weather conflict. Double primal is still rising in usage now and Ho-Oh has a rough time when both restricteds beat it

Yveltal is another restricted threat that has gotten common since March as it is tough to take down without Xerneas. Unfortunately for Ho-Oh, it does not enjoy taking Foul Plays.

Between February till now, there are also Gravity/sleep/Blizzard/PBlade spam teams going around. Ho-Oh does not like dealing with this at all.

Ho-Oh does ~okay~ vs the Kyogre/Dialga combo that saw some light after it won Florida regionals. However, it does little damage to Dialga in rain, and Wolfey's team in particular had 4 Pokemon that really threaten Ho-Oh (Kyogre/Lando-T/Mence/Thundurus), and people tend to make small variations of that team, so it still has huge issues

The rise of Kyogre in general has been rather annoying for Ho-Oh.

Also Ho-Oh wasn't particularly reliable at stopping Big 6 anyways. The megas are problematic (especially Salamence), and now some Big 6 teams use physical Groudon for improved defense against rain.

Ferrothorn on the other hand is still fine right now.
 
Aegislash may be lacking a bit offensively, but I don't see the meta being bad for it. Last I saw, physical PDon was rising in usage in conjunction with gravity which makes its wide guard support and natural inclination to bait groudon great for helping defeat the primal. It is a good xerneas and rayquaza check, walls kang, and helps a lot against the TR match up. Ogre gives it trouble, but at least your opponent is forced to choose a single target move in lieu of Water Spout or Origin Pulse. I understand that it is not A rank material since as Jibaku said, it needs a fair bit of support itself, Yveltal makes it shit bricks, and it isnt splashable, but I think people underestimate its potential in practice
 
Aegislash may be lacking a bit offensively, but I don't see the meta being bad for it. Last I saw, physical PDon was rising in usage in conjunction with gravity which makes its wide guard support and natural inclination to bait groudon great for helping defeat the primal. It is a good xerneas and rayquaza check, walls kang, and helps a lot against the TR match up. Ogre gives it trouble, but at least your opponent is forced to choose a single target move in lieu of Water Spout or Origin Pulse. I understand that it is not A rank material since as Jibaku said, it needs a fair bit of support itself, Yveltal makes it shit bricks, and it isnt splashable, but I think people underestimate its potential in practice
The reason why Aegislash was so popular in 2014 and 2015 is because it's almost guaranteed to go last so that it will be in it's shield form when your opponent's pokemon attack, and the chance of a counter attack against it while it's in blade form is close to zero unless there is something slower than it. And with King's Shield with its +4 priority, it can go back into shield form before the opposing pokemon can take advantage of it being in blade form. In other words, it is not helpful to have it out against a TR team as it would either be revenge killed by whatever it doesn't kill or just die while taking a healthy chunk out of something.
 
The reason why Aegislash was so popular in 2014 and 2015 is because it's almost guaranteed to go last so that it will be in it's shield form when your opponent's pokemon attack, and the chance of a counter attack against it while it's in blade form is close to zero unless there is something slower than it. And with King's Shield with its +4 priority, it can go back into shield form before the opposing pokemon can take advantage of it being in blade form. In other words, it is not helpful to have it out against a TR team as it would either be revenge killed by whatever it doesn't kill or just die while taking a healthy chunk out of something.
Lagging Tail. Prob solved. Always attack last, regardless of TR / paralyzed foe / your own Tailwind / etc. Doesn't hurt King's Shield at all.
 
Gonna make a few nominations.

Crobat to A+ and Talonflame to A: Now I am aware that Talonflame has been seeing more overall usage than Brave Bat (LOL!) but here's the thing, every time I see a Talonflame on the opponent's team it's so god damm easy to play around just because it's so prone to fake out where crobat on the other hand is just flat out immune to it and while it might have the offensive power Crobat lack's well truth be told between a combination of Super fang + offensive partner Crobat basically outclasses Talonflame in almost everyway. While Talonflame has priority it's high speed is really uneeded since you're no longer forced into 50-50s against smeargle. See Haruno's post in page 7 she explains it far better then I ever could.

Dialga from B+ to A-: One of the most solid options for Trick Room available exuding the offensive presence that cresselia lacks, Dialga's typing, bulk, power and unique combination of stats allow it to put pressure on anything not named Groudon, boosted Xerneas or low kick kangaskhan. A fucking hard check to RayOrgre and a Dragon type that beat's fairy's is just soooooo cute.

Weavile from B to B+: I agree with Jibaku on this one. Even though it's typing doesn't really hard check or counter anything on it's own it's so god damm irritating to play against, weather it's simply providing one of the fastest fake out's in the game or even knocking of Xerneas'es Power Herb Weavile does offer a few neat tricks and twists that make stand out from the crowd. The rise of Yveltal teams only makes Weavile even stronger in the current metagame like it's been already stated.

Mega Lopunny from C+ to Unrank: LOL what even is this thing?

Happy Debating!
 

Jibaku

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Mega Lopunny would be used more as a Teeter Dance/After you support alongside Smeargle, also beating Kangaskhan in the process and fulfilling a similar role as last year with the Tauros team. The concept still works now with Xerneas around, and Smeargle no longers needs to waste a moveslot as Xerneas can set up on its own
 
I understanding where you're coming from bro but I just feel Mega Lopuuny is just a little bit to low on the rankings for me to take it serious. Back when this thing was like what I dunno B+ or some shit I'd be more than happy to defend it because its strengths were very clear to me but nowadays it just seems a little bit to much like a joke to me and quite frankly I'm not the only one who thinks that.

EDIT: By the way what's all this teeter dance/after you support stuff? I thought the only set worth using was the full out attacking set with fake out, return, ice punch and low kick.
 

Jibaku

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That's the set that keeps Lopunny from being outclassed by other fake outers. The fact that it can get Smeargle to fire off 135 speed Dark Voids, and then throwing Teeter Dance in there to really make it difficult for its opponents to move, give it enough of a niche over other Fake Outers to remain on the viability rankings. It also has a fast Encore.

Full out attacking set is kinda meh and doesn't do enough damage to be worth a mega slot.
 
OOOOOOOOOOOH. ok that makes a lot more sense. I just thought that since Lopunny was outclassed as a Supporter the only set that would be worth using would be the all out attacking set but yeah I can definitely see where you're coming from, ok Lopunny can stay in C+.

EDIT: By the way what do you think of my other nominations?
 
you know guys i am a bit surprised to not see zekrom anywhere on the list
ohko all PK sets, 2khos xerneas, threatens everything bar PG if given speed control.
with shuca berry and roseli berry, can take one unboosted moonblast/dazzling gleam or preciepce blades

so i nominate it to C+ rank.

edit: it can also ohko non-bulky PG/xerneas if you team it up with soak cloud nine golduck gimmick
 
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Zekrom is a mon I've been experimenting on for a while now and It has some really powerful Dragon/Electric Stabs to work with but the problem is any remote Primal Groudon + Xerneas combo just walls it forcing it to play 50/50s with its Stabs so sometimes it can be a bit difficult to use.

I do agree however that it should be ranked somewhere on the list since its better then stupid shit like reshiram or Zygarde guess what gen 6 fans the dream is dead pokemon z is not happing! so C+/B- is fine by me :)
 
Zekrom is a mon I've been experimenting on for a while now and It has some really powerful Dragon/Electric Stabs to work with but the problem is any remote Primal Groudon + Xerneas combo just walls it forcing it to play 50/50s with its Stabs so sometimes it can be a bit difficult to use.

I do agree however that it should be ranked somewhere on the list since its better then stupid shit like reshiram or Zygarde guess what gen 6 fans the dream is dead pokemon z is not happing! so C+/B- is fine by me :)
yeh i run it with a super gimmicky trollduck set sometimes

so basically you have a soak cloud nine timid scarfed golduck and sashed/orb zekrom

after soak
252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 237-281 (126 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 369-437 (182.6 - 216.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 351-416 (193.9 - 229.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 190-226 (111.1 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mawile: 268-320 (170.7 - 203.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

obviously this strategy has lots of flaws, but if you succeed zekrom will almost be unstoppable. only if there was a prankster who learnt soak, you wouldn't even need golduck then
 
Ok. so just saying to the guy who deleted my post (again!) I wrote that post because no one is talking here and it seems that VGC 2016 has kinda been abandoned, now I don't necessarily watch every champions game but I don't think I've seen 1 single player invested in this format since all the force fed discussion I brought up since I arrived so is anyone even here anymore?
 

Take Azelfie

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Ok. so just saying to the guy who deleted my post (again!) I wrote that post because no one is talking here and it seems that VGC 2016 has kinda been abandoned, now I don't necessarily watch every champions game but I don't think I've seen 1 single player invested in this format since all the force fed discussion I brought up since I arrived so is anyone even here anymore?
There isn't a lot of discussion because the VR looks really good at the moment. We haven't had any big shift in the metagame that warrants discussion thus discussion is pretty dead in here. And this isn't a bad thing. I would also refrain from making post like that so your ICBB.

I guess the only major thing that should be talked about would be maybe moving Kyurem White to like B / B+ since Gravity teams usually run KW in that slow due to the incredibly hard blizzards it can throw out.
 
Is there a reason why Aerodactyl isn't ranked at all?
It is pretty much a crobat with actual offensive pressence, resistance to Talonflame's and Groudon's STAB and it pairs well with Mega Rayquaza's Delta Stream Ability.
Commenting since this has been missed. I've never seen Aerodactyl so I can't comment in terms of practice.

It's mainly because it doesn't have the advantages that Talonflame and Crobat do in terms of being a fast user of Tailwind. Crobat has Inner Focus to stop Fake Out which is great especially against the Big 4 (and also Quick Guard to protect its teammate), Super Fang to compensate for said lack of offensive presence, and a Fairy-resistance which lets Crobat use Taunt to stop Xerneas' Geomancy whilst simultaneously being able to avoid a 2HKO from Moonblast, obviosuly less from Dazzling Gleam. Talonflame has priority Tailwind and priority Brave Bird (+ Flare Blitz potentially boosted by PDon's sun) which both hit harder than any of Aerodactyl's STABs as well as said Fairy-type resistance and Quick Guard, and also resists' PDon's STABs. Given how fast paced VGC16 are, and that suiciding Crobat and Talonflame whilst setting up Tailwind is often a good thing, these immediate advantages generally outweigh Aero's advantages.

On the other hand, Aerodactyl has no way to stop Fake Out, worse offensive presence than Talonflame, a 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe may be OHKOed by Xerneas' Moonblast and 2HKOed by Dazzling Gleam which means you either need a Focus Sash or you can't Taunt Xerneas without a good risk of being KOed, and you kinda want Aero not to faint on the same turn that you Taunt so that you can set up Tailwind the next turn. It may resist PDon's STABs but it isn't do anything to PDon in return with its gigantic bulk, unlike Super Fang dealing 50%, and it still fears a potential Rock-type move, not to forget that Fire Punch will 2HKO Aerodactyl. Wide Guard is probably it's biggest perk and it could be useful because of that, but I'm not guessing a rank on the basis of Theorymon, and even then, you have competition from Wide Guard Smeargle who is the best Wide Guard user in this metagame and Dark Void is far more threatening than any physical attack Aerodactyl can use.
 
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