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"Volt-Turning Offense"

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by VN., Oct 23, 2011.

  1. VN.

    VN. the birds pt. 1
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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    [Genny Approved]

    While U-Turn teams were popular before, many of the Pokemon that used U-Turn shared common counters and were almost exclusively physical. With the advent of the 5th Generation, Rotom-W had become an Electric/Water type and an Electric Type variant of the move U-Turn, known as Volt Switch was created. Scizor and Rotom-W cover each other's weaknesses exceptionally well and one handles special walls while the other handles most physical walls. This combination has seemingly been a staple on most 5th Generation offensive teams, given the usage stats of the 2 Pokemon and the amount of teams on ladder that carry this ferocious combo. The pure offensive synergy between the two Pokemon makes Volt Turning chains almost unstoppable and forces your opponent to play extremely smart in order to stop it, either that or run a certain strategy that can beat both Scizor and Rotom-W completely. In addition to that, many other Pokemon, such as Mienshao, Landorus, Hydreigon and even Celebi are also found on these teams to add even more offensive synergy to the Volt Turn chains.

    So, how do you defeat this fearsome combo?

    [​IMG] Entry Hazards: While Rotom-W and Landorus doesn't really mind hazards with Levitate and good bulk, their grounded red companion does. Most Scizors on Volt Turning teams run Choice Band, so they most likely lack Roost, which means that SR and Spikes will wear them down very fast, so that only Rotom-W remains and your Special Wall can take it out.

    [​IMG] Celebi: Probably the best all around counter to chains only consisting of Rotom-W and Scizor [although Giga Drain hurts many of the other common members], Celebi completely beats Rotom-W with Giga Drain, and can outspeed and kill any non-Scarfed Scizor with an investment of 64 EVs via Hidden Power Fire. HP Fire Roserade performs in pretty much the same way that Celebi does, although it usually has to invest heavily in speed if it wants to counter the chain as well as Celebi.

    [​IMG] Gastrodon - While Gastrodon takes a big chunk from CB U-Turn, Rotom-W can do nothing to it, including Volt Switching to Scizor. The best part is that it pretty much kills the opponent's momentum, as Scizor does not want to switch into a Scald and risk a ton of damage + possible burn.

    [​IMG] Flamethrower Blissey/Lures: Stall's main answer to this chain, especially in conjunction with Gliscor, who can mess around with Rotom by staying in on Volt Swiches, Protecting, etc. If you can get Rotom-W to Hydro Pump then you get Blissey in, and provided you have a bit of an investment in SpA and Rocks up, you nail Scizor when it comes in, crushing your opponent's momentum. There are many other lures as well, such as Hidden Power Fire Latias and the almighty Energy Ball Jellicent.

    A few discussion questions about Volt Turning Offense in today's metagame:

    • What are your thoughts on this type of offense, have you ever used it, do you mind playing against it?
    • Is it healthy for the metagame? If so, why, if not, why not?
    • Do you have any other ways to beat it, other than the ones listed in the OP, and how much do you consider this core when building a team [as both an option for your own team and a threat that must be accounted for]?
    • How commonly do you find these types of teams on the ladder?
    • When making an offensive team that utilizes this strategy, what Pokemon do you add to your U-Turn Chains, anything unique that you've found to be effective?
    • How much of a necessity is it to clear the field of entry hazards when running one of these teams? Is victory still possible with the majority of the chain's members taking 12.5% of their HP from Stealth Rock and possibly more from Spikes?
  2. Treadshot A1

    Treadshot A1

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    My first 5th Gen team ran 3 U-Turners, and I'd say that keeping hazards off the field wasn't a major issue at all. Hell, I didn't even run a Spinner at that point.

    I guess to me the team was more a trade off style team. It was more focused on keeping more hazards on the field tha your opponent, so that they'd take more damage than you. Since I'd be forcing switches a lot of the time, both sides switched basically the same number of times in a battle, so it was important that per switch, my opponent took more damage than me.

    On counter I absolutely hated (I didn't run Rotom-W at the time) was Jellicent, as it basically stops Scizor cold. Even Pursuit could barely 2HKO Jellicent, and that was at a time when people hadn't yet fully realised Jellicent's walling capabilities. Add to that Will-O-Wisp, and Scizor was useless. It's also great for screwing over Mienshao, since mine doesn't run anything particularly useful against Jellicent, and it can threaten to absorb HJK, so I couldn't really use it until Jellicent was out of the way.

    I've found Infernape to still be effective,in that even though it's frail, it's mainly there to act as a Mixed Wallbreaker. Only problem is,walls generally switch out when you bring in a MixApe. U-turn helps slightly with that, while also helping to alleviate the downsides of CC assuming you can pull off U-Turn afterwards.
  3. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken neca eos omnes, deus suos agnoscet
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    Entry hazards are by far your best shot at beating these sorts of teams. Once you've got them up you don't even need to force switches anymore - they do it themselves! I've tried to run a few teams like this before but then again I'm not a fabulous teambuilder in the first place and it never really worked out as well for me as it did for say ToF. My biggest issue with these kinds of teams is the heavy reliance on prediction, especially with things like Gliscor vs Specs/Scarf Rotom-W (which is why all teams of this sort shouldn't use a choice Rotom-W lol). Plus you have to either run a spinner which throws off your momentum entirely or find some other way to keep hazards off the field like Xatu or Espeon. I mean, you're not really required to run a hazard-remover but if you don't you're almost guaranteed to have more losses than wins.

    CB Infernape is probably one of my favorite U-turn abusers; it lures things like Gyarados and Heatran and sometimes even Gliscor depending on what they had out and gives Rotom-W a huge opportunity to make something happen. Mach Punch was also a little more relevant when Excadrill was around but eh, it's still a cool set. Mienshao is also notorious for being one of the few U-turn abusers that hardly even minds entry hazards in general thanks to Regenerator.
  4. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Yeah U-Turn teams are a bitch. Most of the ones i see usually focus themselves around a Landorus/Rotom W/Scizor core which can be irritating as they have an extra thing to U-Turn on Celebi with. Personally the best weapon I have found to use against them is simple prediction. I know that can go two ways but it can still work decently well.

    Sometimes I can lure the attack, sacrifice something (such as something to a Bullet Punch) then strike back hard with a set up sweeper or something. Once you break up the core more often enough the rest of the team just falls apart. Firing off powerful attacks (such as, say, a Specs Draco Meteor) might not be a bad idea as it basically forces a single pokemon in the core to take large amounts of damage which goes a long way in defeating the switcher core.

    So yeah in summery I wait it all out, then counterattack hard. That switcher combo is annoying as fuck, but usually I can pull through.
  5. NixHex

    NixHex A new vice president erryonce in a while to keep me busy
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    Scarf Rotom is amazing in any context, even more so on an all Voltturn team. It's easy enough to predict Gliscor switch and just Trick it a Scarf. Sure, you'll get Toxic'd but it's not a huge deal since you're using Rotom for momentum and it will eventually die anyway (which will gain you even more momentum if done right). Specs is pretty mean but Rotom is 10x more annoying with boosted Speed.
  6. Zephiel

    Zephiel

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    I think these teams are kind of overrated. They work well against specific teams but pretty badly against others. Entry hazards are a really big problem, so is Gastrodon / Quagsire.
  7. V0x

    V0x meow or something
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    On thing I tried pursuing a few months ago (before this strategy really came out into the open) was a full "Volt Turning" team. However, I picked Pokemon with STAB that could hit every mono-type super effectively. The idea was that as soon as I scouted out, I would go to a counter. The opponent would switch again, but I'd scout out again. Repeat until all the opponent's Pokemon can be KOed by one move from a sweeper. Obviously, this doesn't work because people don't switch, etc. I'm wondering if this anyone else has had success with that kind of structured team (not just Scizor-Rotom-W spam.)
    here was the team I attempted to use (open)

    Landorus (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Sand Force
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - U-turn
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Magnezone @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
    Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
    - Volt Switch
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Thunderbolt
    - Flash Cannon

    Rotom-F @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SAtk
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Volt Switch
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Trick

    Infernape (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - U-turn
    - Mach Punch
    - Flare Blitz
    - ThunderPunch

    Forretress (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Volt Switch

    Victini @ Choice Band
    Trait: Victory Star
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - U-turn
    - V-create
    - Wild Charge
    - Psychic


    obviously very straightforward EV spreads; that might be an issue
  8. Razza

    Razza

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    Wouldnt it be a lot easier just to hydro pump or hp ice the gliscor switchin?

    also volcarona tends to 6-0 those types of teams as these days many people carry expert belt landorus rather than scarf, despite the fact it is incredibly inferior to scarf, and scarf can easily predict the gliscor switchin and nail it with hp ice
  9. MetaGross66

    MetaGross66

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    I honestly don't know why anyone would use a choice item on Rotom-W in a switcher core. I mean, it's not hard to predict a ground switchin, but still I'd rather have the freedom and ability to reliably wall stuff like Gyarados than the extra speed since you're constantly switching and forcing momentum onto your side. I've found using this combo in the rain to be a good way to combat against Celebi. Jolteon and other Volt absorb abusers also happen to give Rotom-W issues. Usually, it's just a matter of stopping Volt Switch and being able to hurt the incoming attacker as well as Rotom to end their momentum. Then again not a lot of Pokemon can do that.
  10. JohnWesleyX

    JohnWesleyX

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    I remember having a team like this.

    Show Hide

    Forretress@Red Card
    252 Hp / 4 Def / 252 SpD-Sassy
    Sturdy:
    Spikes / Stealth Rock / Volt-Switch / Rapid Spin

    Electrode@Focus Sash
    252 Hp / 4 SpA / 252 Spe-Naive
    Aftermath:
    Mirror Coat / Volt-Switch / Taunt / Hidden Power[ICE]


    Gliscor@Toxic Orb
    252 Hp / 44 Def / 212 Spe-Jolly
    Poison Heal:
    U-Turn / Protect / Earthquake / Ice Fang


    Scizor@Choice Band
    24 Hp / 252 Atk / 232 SpD-Adamant
    Technician:
    Bullet Punch / U-Turn / Superpower / Pursuit


    Zoroark@Life Orb
    4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Ape-Lonely
    Illusion:
    Dark Pulse / U-Turn / Flamethrower / Sucker Punch


    Dragonite@Leftovers
    60 Hp / 252 Atk / 196 Spe-Adamant
    Marvel Scale:
    Roost / Dragon Dance / Outrage / Fire Punch


    It basically revolved around beating up on the enemys team until Dragonite was ready to come in and sweep.
  11. Tweedy

    Tweedy

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    Hey there,
    After reading this topic, I have decided to try and make a team with it. After about an hour and a half of testing into the night, here is what i got.

    The Lead (open)
    Mienshao:Regenerator
    Life Orb
    Naughty (+atk, - SpD)
    252 Attack, 60 SpA, 196 Spd
    Fake Out
    High Jump Kick
    Hidden Power (Ice)
    U-Turn

    Very Potent lead, its nice to have sweeping potential with a pokemon that doesnt even need to set up


    Deflector (open)
    Xatu:Magic Bounce
    Light Clay
    Bold (+Def, -Atk)
    252 Hp, 100 Def, 152 SpD
    Reflect
    Light Screen
    Thunder Wave
    Roost

    The Deflector/Twaver/Physical Wall of this Team. Bounce Back Hazards, Set up screens. definately needs to see more usage. i used over espeon for the 4x resist to fighting.


    Special Wall (open)
    Jirachi:Serene Grace
    Leftovers
    Careful (+SpD, -SpA)
    252 Hp, 192SpD, 60Spd
    Wish
    Iron Head
    Fire Punch
    U-Turn

    This Poke, while as annoying as a turd in the punch bowl, serves as a great special wall and wish passer. with all the paralysis support from Xatu, i can run mags worst nightmare; fire punch. With Light screen up, magnezone cant even dent jirachi, while jirachi at least 3Kos (havent done calcs, but im sure its like 40% damage) also, i needed something to sponge draco-meteors and outrages, and provided screens are up (while they are very easy to get up for 8 turns) i can tank, well, almost anything.


    Heavy Hands (open)
    Infernape:Blaze
    Choice Band
    Naive (+Spd, -SpD)
    252 Atk, 252Spd, 4SpA
    Close Combat
    U-Turn
    Stone Edge
    OverHeat

    This Poke works very well with some of the other pokes, and gives me a fast U-Turn when i need it, as well as CC spam, which really hurts a lot of pokes.


    Light Yet Hard (open)
    Flygon:Levitate
    Choice Scarf
    Adamant (+atk, -SpA)
    4HP, 252 Atk, 252Spd
    U-Turn
    Earthquake
    Outrage
    Fire Punch

    Flygon is a nice electric absorber, as well as a good pivot. when needed, Flygon has enough power to speed a weakened team with Outrage, its actually fun to watch.


    Wallbreaker/Tricker (open)
    Rotom-W:Levitate
    Choice Scarf
    Modest (+SpA, -Atk)
    252SpA, 252Spd, 4 Hp
    Hydro Pump
    Volt Switch
    Trick
    Pain Split

    Rotom likes tricking things onto walls, and that is pretty much his job. other than that, he hits hard and pain splits off any damage he might take, and that generally is at the expense of the opponent. after a few rounds of volt-switching, i know how to handle the switchin, whether i can trick it or not is also a good idea, as sometimes i help the enemy (like tricking them while they toxic me)


    All in all, i really like this team, even though i am primarily leaning towards stallish styles. the lack of reliable hazards is pretty nasty also, since im uncomfortable without them and a reliable spinner. although i guess i could use forretress in place of Xatu. I think it is a very solid team and has little weakness to begin with, with reflect and light screen and the constant momentum gained with smart u-turning.
  12. bluemon

    bluemon

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    you know what REALLY MESSES WITH usual counter such as celebi?

    cs scizor.
    yea. scarfed.

    and specs rotom.
  13. NoJohns

    NoJohns

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    Phazing guys, phazing. Teams like this get forced out of their own accord, and then thrown out the window again.

    I don't know why no one does it anymore.
  14. Mario With Lasers

    Mario With Lasers Self-proclaimed king
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    If you have to predict a Gliscor switch-in so you can use Trick, why don't you just Hydro Pump it back to Gotham? If the sole reason is to troll Gliscor, then we could go with Lum or whatever.
  15. Solace

    Solace falling slowly
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    This playstyle is really somewhat fun to use, especially since it just has great synergy. I've been a fan of the scouting moves since DPP when I used three U-Turners on a team to great success.

    I've always loved the momentum those moves bring, and they definitely change the game quite a bit.

    I'm planning on building a cool "Volt-Turn" team sometime soon, which will also be using Volt Switch Foretress who is just totally cool. Being less Taunt-bait and getting some momentum off of Skarmory switches is always cool.
  16. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken neca eos omnes, deus suos agnoscet
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    I do agree that Scarftom is good in general but on a Volt-Turn team I'm a little more shaky on it. Trick is brilliant for messing with things like Chansey/Blissey that come in to try and wall it (also meaning you get a free switch into Scizor) but at the same time I almost prefer the reliability you gain by being able to run Pain Split, Leftovers, etc on it. Rotom-W is almost always a huge pivot for these kinds of teams, providing several key resistances and checks. Between things like Sandstorm and SR and switching into attacks itself, I almost always find Choiced Rotom-W to fall far too quickly for my liking. At least, much more quickly than the things that I need it to check. :(
  17. badabing

    badabing hevy hangs da hood,,

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    i think volturn is overrated and increasingly easy to predict now that it gets so much spam on the ladder. the moves themselves are pretty overrated because team preview eliminates the need for scouting. imo their best use is to simply bail out a poke of being choice-locked, while still being able to threaten something. the main argument for these teams is creating momentum, but you can do that just as easily utilizing team preview in prediction, ex. advantageous double switching, hitting on the switch, etc. it comes down to skill level, like whether a player is more comfortable going for a risk-free volt switch/u-turn or actually committing to a prediction.

    not trying to rain on the parade, this was one of my favorite strategies in earlier rounds when teams were less prepared for even a simple scizor + rotom-w core.
  18. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck you spin mine head right round right round
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    Volt-turning to good teams is only really threatening if there are entry hazards up. Otherwise you can just switch things into the weak attacks and threaten out the switchin.
  19. Rurushu

    Rurushu Sleepless Strategist
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    Surprisingly there are very few Volt Turning teams making good use of the momentum gained by using Volt Switch/U Turn.

    Rotom, Landorus, Scizor, Celebi, Jirachi and etc aren't exactly the best choices to make good use of free turns and they'll often just "waste" it u-turning/volt switchin one more time. Instead of continuing the chain, you could actually use the momentum to send in Deoxys-E, Hydreigon, Gengar and so on, hard hitters that will often utilize a turn of favorable matchup to severely hurt the opposition.

    And speaking about turns of favorable matchups, Wobbuffet is amazing in a scout team; he's often hindered by its inability to switch against heavy hitters, but such a problem is easily solved if he's being used in a Volt Turning team. He can choose his matchups and easily get rid of nuisances like Gastrodon, Celebi and Blissey.
  20. Blatreutka

    Blatreutka

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    I've always been a fan of momentum-based teams, but the classic Scizor + Rotom-W has been used so many times that many teams now include at least one 'mon that can counter both or at least have a plan for dealing with them. I made a warstory a while back of my sun team vs. a more bulky momentum-based team (which is better than the average "everything has u-turn" team imo because it has an actual goal). My opponents team was Mienshao / CS Rotom-H / DTail Gyarados / Ferrothorn / CM Latias / SD Cobalion and focused on using the residual damage from the first 4 members to support its two bulky sweepers. I won't give away the ending if you want to read it, but the biggest factors of the match were hazard control and residual damage.
  21. Nails

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    my best team from the last meta was in this style. my answer to basically all of the listed problems was to use meinshao. it dgaf about hazards because of regenerator, crushes celebi with uturn, and crushes the other two with hjk.

    it was more the team than the mons themselves but the fact that it revolves around meinshao (who has an unfortunate base 105 speed) and rotom-w meant it has some latios issues. the team also hates ferrothorn since it doesn't really pack the power needed to kill ferro, and wearing it down on switches also wears you down. overall though, really really successful team style.

    ps uturn gliscor is a bamf
  22. Aeromence

    Aeromence

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    Baton Pass also works to gain momentum. Maybe you should add that in too? It's great on mons like Jolteon and Gliscor, who can get momentum for the team and even pass subs. Personally I like SubPass Gliscor, and I often go undefeated if I flawlessly pass a sub to SD Lucario/Toxicroak. I prefer to call it U-Switching, but whatever
  23. ToF

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    Since I basically posted this kind of team recently, I guess I'll chime in. First off, Volt-Turn teams do not lose to hazards. Why? Because the idea of the team is to prevent them from getting up in the first place. In a metagame plagued with hazards, my team not only prevented them, but took advantage of not having them through crushing offensive force. Stall teams are damn hard pressed to even get a single layer up without a magic mirror user because of the constant switching these U-turn teams put. Oh, by the way, one single misprediction by the stall user usually means GG against a U-turn type team. You're talking to a stall user by the way, and I can tell you from experience that even the best stall teams I've created struggle immensely against U-turn teams.

    This Volt-Turning idea might be overrated since it's hyped so much, but it's damn potent, so I wouldn't say something like "it works against certain teams and not others." Certain players are more skilled than others, that's how this game works (or we'd like it to be that way), and a U-turn team in the hands of a skilled player works wonders against all team-styles, most notably Sand and Rain. This playstyle has a lot of trouble with Sun, however, simply because typical Sun-team Pokemon like Venusaur get a speed boost that makes it a lot easier to roll through U-turn teams.
  24. bluemon

    bluemon

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    yea. i use baton pass on celebi on my volturn team with sizor and rotom.

    the good thing about bp on celebi is that it can easily escape being pursuited by scizor and ttar.
  25. High Roller

    High Roller

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    It's great with no team preview, but then again almost everything is better without team preview.

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