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Weavile (BW2 Revamp)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by alexwolf, Jun 13, 2013.

  1. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    [​IMG]
    Weavile

    [Overview]

    <p>Although Weavile is not the most versatile Pokemon in OU, it functions very precisely with the combination of Ice Shard and a speedy Pursuit, making it one of the best revenge killers for Latios and Latias on offensive teams, as well as a good general Dragon slayer and supporter for Pokemon such as Keldeo and Lucario (through the elimination or weakening of their checks with Pursuit). Another thing that Weavile has going for it is that it can trap and KO Starmie, helping Spikes-stacking offensive teams keep their hazards intact. However, Weavile is frail, meaning that most strong neutral STAB attacks will OHKO it. Furthermore, it's defeated by common priority moves such as Scizor's Bullet Punch and Breloom's Mach Punch, weak to Stealth Rock, which, when combined with the mandatory Life Orb that Weavile holds, seriously limits its longevity. Finally, Weavile is easy to wall for both offensive and defensive teams with common Pokemon such as Keldeo, Jirachi, and Skarmory.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Physical Attacker
    move 1: Pursuit
    move 2: Ice Shard
    move 3: Night Slash / Ice Punch
    move 4: Low Kick
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Jolly
    ability: Pressure
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Pursuit is the move that separates Weavile the most from Mamoswine, which also has Ice Shard and hits much harder. Pursuit enables Weavile to weaken or eliminate many problematic Psychic- and Ghost-type Pokemon such as Starmie, Celebi, and Gengar, and for this reason makes Weavile a very good team player. Ice Shard gives insurance against faster threats, such as Choice Scarf Salamence, +2 Thundurus-T, +2 Landorus-T, and Venusaur in sun, and allows Weavile to OHKO a slightly weakened Breloom (it deals 75.57 - 89.31% to 4 HP Breloom) before it can KO back with Mach Punch. Night Slash is Weavile's strongest and most reliable move and deals with any Psychic- and Ghost-type that decided to stay in. It is also Weavile's strongest option against Pokemon such as Jirachi, Rotom-W, and Tentacruel. On the other hand, Ice Punch allows Weavile to OHKO Gliscor, offensive pivot Landorus-T (even after Intimidate), and Amoonguss (the last two need Stealth Rock for the guaranteed OHKO), and 2HKO Hippowdon and Donphan after Stealth Rock. Low Kick provides almost perfect neutral coverage with Night Slash and deals with some of the Steel-types that plague Weavile, namely Scizor, Ferrothorn, Magnezone, and Heatran, all of which are either OHKOed or 2HKOed with the help of Stealth Rock. It also OHKOes some offensive Pokemon that Weavile outspeeds, such as Terrakion, Hydreigon, Kyurem-B, and Mamoswine.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>An alternative EV spread of 252 Atk / 28 SpD / 228 with a Jolly nature can be used to always survive a Hydro Pump from Life Orb Starmie, but this scenario is very rare and the Speed tie with opposing Weavile is usually more important. Choice Band can be used over Life Orb if the extra power it provides is needed and allows Weavile to sometimes avoid the guessing game involving Pursuit and Night Slash when facing a Psychic- or Ghost-type. However, it makes Weavile easier to play around and to set up on after it KOes something, so make sure to have the defensive backbone to deal with such threats.</p>

    <p>Weavile fits better on offensive teams that appreciate the combination of its Pursuit-trapping and Ice Shard revenge killing abilities. Those kinds of teams include Spikes-stacking hyper offensive teams that rely on Gengar to spinblock, where Weavile eliminates Starmie if it manages to get past Gengar, and rain offense teams with Pokemon such as Choice Scarf Keldeo and Agility Thundurus-T, which appreciate Celebi, Jellicent, Latios, and Latias gone or weakened. This means that suicide hazard leads such as Skarmory or Forretress are good partners when combined with Gengar. Keldeo is one of the best offensive partners to Weavile, as not only is Weavile taking care of Keldeo's checks and counters (Celebi, Starmie, Jellicent, Latios, and Latias), but Keldeo also takes on some of the best counters to Weavile, such as Scizor, Skarmory, and Forretress. Thundurus-T, Lucario, Starmie, and any sweeper that benefits from the absence of Psychic- and Ghost-types is also a good offensive partner for Weavile. Lastly, Rapid Spin support always helps a Stealth Rock-weak Pokemon, and Weavile is no exception. Tentacruel is the best option for rain teams and has nice defensive synergy with Weavile, covering threats such as Scizor, Keldeo, Skarmory, and Forretress.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Fake Out and Counter can be used with Focus Sash on a lead set to break any Focus Sash from other leads and OHKO anything physically based that Weavile cannot otherwise threaten with Counter, but dedicated leads are very situational in this generation and the same holds true for Weavile. Taunt can be used to prevent defensive Steel-types from taking advantage of Weavile if your team has a big problem with entry hazards, but this is its only use. Swords Dance is an option to capitalize on the switches that Weavile forces and attempt some late-game cleaning, but it's a very risky strategy that will probably result in Weavile being KOed with a wrong prediction, not to mention that Weavile is not such a good cleaner anyway with prevalent Pokemon such as Keldeo and Scizor cutting its sweep short. Punishment is useful against Calm Mind users such as Jirachi and Latias, but is inferior to Night Slash in all other cases.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Skarmory, Forretress, Wish Jirachi, Keldeo, Chansey, and Vaporeon are hard counters to Weavile, easily walling it and either using it as setup bait or just OHKOing it. Scizor can easily switch into anything bar Low Kick (which 2HKOes offensive variants with two rounds of Stealth Rock damage) and OHKO Weavile with Bullet Punch or set up on it. Metagross is on a similar boat, but has the advantage of not being 2HKOed by Low Kick after two rounds of Stealth Rock damage (with Leftovers factored in). Most bulky Water-types, such as Politoed, Tentacruel, and Rotom-W, are good checks to Weavile, as they avoid the 2HKO from Night Slash and threaten back with rain-boosted attacks or status. Hippowdon walls any set that lacks Ice Punch, which in turn 2HKOes even physically defensive variants with the help of Stealth Rock. Offensive Pokemon such as Gyarados, Infernape, and Conkeldurr are perfect checks to Weavile, as they don't care about most of its moves and can either set up on it or OHKO it with Mach Punch in Infernape and Conkeldurr's case. Finally, everything faster than Weavile can usually OHKO it due to its frailty and common weaknesses, and the same holds true for most priority moves other than Ice Shard.</p>

    Show Hide

    • Ice Shard + Pursuit give it a unique niche
    • Able to outspeed every Psychic and Ghost-type in the tier and put them in the guessing game of ''switch out or stay in''
    • Can revenge kill a plethora of unboosted offensive Pokemon with its good neutral coverage, such as Terrakion, Latios, Thundurus-T, and Starmie
    • Easy to wall with physical walls such as Skarmory and Forretress, as well as popular offensive Pokemon, namely Jirachi, Keldeo, and Scizor
    • Very frail and almost impossible to switch in on attacking moves
    • Weak to SR and priority
    [SET]
    name: Physical Attacker
    move 1: Pursuit
    move 2: Ice Shard
    move 3: Night Slash / Ice Punch
    move 4: Low Kick
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Jolly
    ability: Pressure
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Pursuit prevents Psychic and Ghost-types from switching out, allowing Weavile to trap and possibly eliminate them
    • Ice Shard gives insurance against faster threats, such as ScarfMence, Double Dance Thundurus-T, Rock Polish Landorus, and Venusaur in sun, and allows Weavile to KO a slightly weakened Breloom before it can kKO with Mach Punch
    • Night Slash mauls most Psyhic and Ghost-types that decide to stay in. It also is Weavile's strongest option against Jirachi, and Water-types
    • Ice Punch allows Weavile to OHKO Gliscor, Landorus-T even after Intimidate, 2HKO Hippowdon and Donphan after SR, and OHKO Amoonguss
    • Low Kick deals with Steel-types mainly (2HKOes Scizor after SR, 2HKOes Ferrothorn, Magnezone, and SpD Hetran) as well as OHKOing Terrakion, Hydreigon, Kyurem-B, and Mamsowine
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • Spread outspeeds Alakazam and Scarf Gothitelle and can live one LO Hydro Pump from Starmie at full health
    • Alt spread of 252 Atk / 28 SpD / 228 Spe with Jolly, to always survive a Hydro Pump from LO Starmie
    • Choice Band
    • Swords Dance
    • Punishment
    • Rapid Spin support. Tenta is the best option for rain teams, covering Scizor and Keldeo, the two biggest threats to Weavile
    • Fits well on HO spike stacking teams with Gengar, trapping the only spinner that Gengar can't spinblock, Starmie. Gengar, Skarmory, and Forretress makes good partners on such teams
    • Fits well on rain offense teams, as it can take out mamy problematic Pokemon for them, such as Starmie, Celebi, Gengar, Jellicent, and Lati@s. Keldeo is the best partner for rain offense teams, as except from benefiting from the absence of all those Pokemon it also deals with Scizor and Skarmory. Double Dance Thundurus-T also benefits from the absence of some of those Pokemon and fairs well against most of the Pokemon that give troubles to Weavile
    • Lucario is another good partner as Weavile traps and kills/weakens Gengar and Jellicent and allows Lucario to sweep
    • RP Landorus
    [Other Options]
    • Fake Out + Counter for lead set?
    • Taunt
    [Checks and Counters]
    • Scizor
    • Keldeo
    • Skarmory
    • Forretress
    • Jirachi
    • Chansey
    • Vaporeon
    • Tentacruel
    • Gyarados
    • Rotom-W
    • Politoed
    • Infernape
    • Conkeldurr
    • Hippowdon
    • Metagross
    • Any faster Pokemon
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  2. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I think you can leave Landorus-t out of checks and counters. It can't take an ice punch or two ice shards factoring in intimidate.

    Weavile has enough hard counters that I don't think you need to list things like this!
  3. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    You mean Choice Scarf users and the odd Alakazam / Jolteon, right? This gives the reader the impression that there are many faster Pokemon. The fact is, combined with its stellar Speed and priority Ice Shard, very little that's faster than Weavile can actually handle it. Even a slightly weakened Alakazam or Jolteon is likely to fall.

    There's a few things I don't see mentioned in AC as partners that imo should be. Think: RP Landorus.

    I wouldn't mention this in the AC -- it's better suited for OO. Running a Choice Band makes the set play entirely differently and honestly makes it way easier to handle.

    Most of the time it's not even a guessing game, as Pursuit can OHKO lots of stuff after just Stealth Rock damage. Weavile is pretty powerful.

    Just some preliminary notes.
  4. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Well i mentioned Landorus-T as a soft check. It can come on anything except Ice Shard / Ice Punch (the latter is rare) and basically make Weavile useless.

    I mean every faster Pokemon. Jolteon and any Choice Scarf user. Also the reader won't be confused as i will elaborate which are the faster things in the write up

    Adding RP Landorus, nice catch!

    Idk about CB... I don't mind it going even in OO, but for now i am leaving it in AC as CB Pursuit can OHKO many of the frail Psyhic-types that could attempt to stay in on Weavile. It also allows Weavile to OHKO Celebi and physically defensive Jellicent with Night Slash should they chose to stay in, which is huge for some sweepers (see Landorus and Keldeo).

    Finally, dw i will explain how many of the Pokemon will want to trap and be OHKOed by Pursuit even if they stay in.
  5. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    No, Landorus-T is pretty difficult to switch into Weavile. I don't find Ice Punch rare; in fact, I see it all the time. Even without Ice Punch, Landorus-T still gets nailed by Ice Shard. It's not walling anything after using it.
  6. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    I know that Lando-T gets 2HKOed by Ice Shard even after Intimidate, the point is that Lando-T can switch into 2/4 of Weavile's moveset, including her usually strongest STAB (Night Slash) and then leave Weavile as easy picking for the rest of the team.
  7. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Could add Ninetails as a soft check. 252 HP / 120 Def is only 3HKO'd by Weavile without SR, and Flamethrower always destroys back.
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Yeah true, thx!
  9. dice

    dice RAP GAME GiTTARACKUR
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    28 SpD lets you always live a Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump if you're desperate to switch in; I'd just remove the EV's from Atk.

    Looks fine.

    [qc]1/3[/qc]
  10. BKC

    BKC
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    @ Jukain: Weavile is faster than Alakazam O_O

    QC Approved 2/3
  11. Sapientia

    Sapientia Depression war nie tragbar doch steht mir so gut
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    I would also mention, that Low Kick OHKOs Tyranitar
  12. dice

    dice RAP GAME GiTTARACKUR
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    That seems rather obvious... Mamoswine and Kyurem-B on the other hand aren't known unless you do damage calcs.
  13. Sapientia

    Sapientia Depression war nie tragbar doch steht mir so gut
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    For me they are just as obvious as tar, but whatever :P
  14. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    But it doesn't necessarily even OHKO Kyurem-B. Therefore, certainly not obvious by any stretch of the imagination. Anyway, you should mention Tyranitar because it's an important reason to use the move.

    Also, having seen how much damage that theoretical technician beat up does (in one of those theorymon threads), I wonder if it's worth mentioning in OO. If 5/6 of your pokemon are alive and not statused, it will be stronger than Night Slash, and it also breaks subs.
  15. JohnnyCrying

    JohnnyCrying

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    Aerial Ace in OO ? 54% - 64% to Keldeo, the scarf still outspeeds you, but you can lure and 2HKO the non-scarf versions
  16. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    You can also mention Ice Punch allows makes sure Toxicroak cannot directly counter you

    With Ice Punch:
    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 214-253 (68.37 - 80.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Without it, you're best bet is too:
    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 114-136 (36.42 - 43.45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Then Toxi just uses OHKO's you with Drain Punch, so yeah.
  17. Vertex

    Vertex

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    I think an EV spread of 252 Atk / 28 SpD / 228 Spe is better. You outpace up to Alakazam and Scarf Gothitelle and live LO Starmie's H-Pump with 28 SpD like Princess Bri said.
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    I won't mention Beat Up anywhere as it just doesn't have enough power. The only way this move is worth it is when you have all the team alive/unstatused, where it gets 100 BP, but even if 1 Pokemon is dead/statused then it has almost the same power with Night Slash (70 vs 75) and from there on it becomes pathetically weak. It's just not worth it for 30 more BP if extremely rare circumstances occur, and getting screwed under the more common ones (2 or more of your teammates being dead/statused).

    Also, changing the spread to the one that takes Starmie's Hydro Pump, thx guys!
  19. dice

    dice RAP GAME GiTTARACKUR
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    Make it 228 Atk / 28 SpD / 252 Spe. Speed tying with opposing Weavile is more important than such little attack.
  20. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Weavile's Attack is already just doing the things it needs to, so lowering it is not an option. Here are some calcs that prove it:

    • 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 343-406 (95.81 - 113.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • 228 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 333-395 (93.01 - 110.33%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    • 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 218-257 (72.9 - 85.95%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • 228 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 213-252 (71.23 - 84.28%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    • 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 359-424 (88.86 - 104.95%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • 228 Atk Life Orb Weavile Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 351-416 (86.88 - 102.97%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    There are more calcs, but i think that those are enough. If speed tying with opposing Weavile is really important then it is better to just drop the extra SpD, as straight up switching into offensive Starmie is almost never going to happen.
  21. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    then why is it the main spread and not AC?
  22. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Good point. Putting it to AC.
  23. dice

    dice RAP GAME GiTTARACKUR
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    ok, 252/252 is fine. remove landorus-t as a check and counter please...
  24. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    But Lando-T is a check, as it can switch into anything bar Ice Shard and OHKO back, while Ice Shard only 2HKOes.
  25. dice

    dice RAP GAME GiTTARACKUR
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    Ice Punch is a sure-fire OHKO on the nowadays standard 252 HP / 144 Def Landorus-T (99.47 - 118.32%) after Stealth Rock. Ice Shard does a hefty amount (54.45 - 65.44%), so you aren't wanting to switch into that either, and Landorus-T is often an integral Pokemon on semi-stall and stall teams alike where it is needed for Pokemon other than Weavile (see: Dragonite, Terrakion, etc.). We should NOT be encouraging people to switch Landorus-T into Weavile when it could have a STAB that OHKO's, so remove all mentions of it. Please and thanks.

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