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DPP OU Welcome To Fabletown (my ST5 team)

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Scofield, Feb 8, 2009.

  1. Scofield

    Scofield Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhh, Kate.......
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Sep 14, 2007
    Welcome to Fabletown

    A Team of Fables aka Team Phoenix Rising aka The Team I Used in Smogon Tournament # 5


    (As usual skip all of the introduction stuff if you’re impatient.)

    Objective: After signing up for the 5th Annual Smogon Tournament, I realized that my last team had become outdated. I was already in the process of making a new team, but soon realized that that team wasn’t going to get me where I wanted to go. So I decided to scrap the team in progress and wanted to make a team that would give me the best chance to win any one given battle, given all battle conditions and styles. And that is how this team came to be.

    Play Style: I started out playing bulky offense. After a bit, I started playing hyper offensive, trying to win as quickly as possible. With this team, I wanted to return to my original style, as I felt it was the most effective. Without realizing it, most players do play the “bulky offense” or “balanced” style. The idea is for each Pokémon to carry its own weight, and not using walls for the sake of walling threats, but rather just being able to beat, either by countering or checking, all dangerous threats. You want to play smartly, sacrificing Pokémon as needed, but not letting any one die needlessly. Any Pokémon is viable to be used in this play style, even if just by using its typing to its advantage to get switch into the game. Of course, it only makes sense to limit the number of “fragile” Pokémon on this team. I also like to use Pokémon that I am familiar with, although sometimes in new roles, ie Heatran as a Stealth Rocker as opposed to the Life Orb or Scarfer version.

    Theme: I love nicknaming my Pokémon cutesy/funny/ironic names. While making this team, I was reading the Fables series, and was quite into it, so of course they all ended up named after Characters from fairy tales or fables. I’ll explain the nicknames as people sometimes are curious about them, but I’ll try not to clutter the thread with it. For those who are unfamiliar with the series I am speaking of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fables_(Vertigo)

    Effectiveness: No, I’m not trying to brag, I’m just trying to show that this team can be effective. Obviously, I developed this team for ST5, and it got me to the second round before losing in a game that could had gone either way. Besides that, I used this team on the ladder, and it got me to 1600 and the top 20 on two accounts. If my life depended on winning one Pokémon match, this is the team I would use.


    Rose Red (Roserade) (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 6 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Sleep Powder
    - Leaf Storm
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Namesake: Ah, a rose by any other name…Although, admittedly Roserade should be by the name of Briar Rose aka Sleeping Beauty. I just liked Rose Red’s character more and it still fits.

    EV’s/Item/Nature: A pretty standard max/max sweeper spread. I do have one question though. On the Roserade analysis, the focus sash set has the extra 6 ev’s thrown into hp, but on the scarf set, it is dumped into special defense. Which is better? As for the choice scarf, it allows Roserade to hit a speed of 459.

    Move Set: Sleep Power is the key to the set, allowing me to get off a quick sleep at the beginning of the match. Leafstorm allows me to always have a move to check those pesky curse Swamperts (ohko under all circumstances), +1 Calm Mind Suicunes, and to hit hard in general, doing a great deal of damage to dragon dance Gyarados (about 56%) and Kingdras (about 85%). Sludge bomb allows a nice stab move to pick off Infernape or Azelf trying to switch into a light grass knot. It also allows me to do a great deal of super-effective damage to Celebi. Lastly, HP Ice is to check +1 dragon dance Salamences.

    Team Role: About 99/100 times I just sleep at the beginning of the match. The only time I think I ever don’t is if the lead is a Flygon, which are usually scarfed and try to use U-turn, in which case I just HP Ice it. Lum Berry leads are very rare now, teams hardly carry sleep absorbers any more and the only times Roserade has ever gotten me into trouble as a lead is when Sleep Powder misses. I am able to shut down all suicide leads, hopefully preventing them from getting Stealth Rocks up. I’m not afraid of revealing the “scarf surprise” early in the match, but it is nice when I can occasionally conceal it for a late game surprise knock out. I was going to list the top 10 leads and how Roserade stacks up against them superiorly, but really, it would just be a waste of time as I could (and do) just sleep them all. Roserade has a few very important roles on my team. Besides the fast leading sleep and previously mentioned swampert check, she offers me a toxic spikes absorber, revenge killer without fear of magnezone or status due to natural cure, and a soft celebi counter, being immune to leech seed, not caring about twave, resisting grass knot and being able to take HP Fire well. Roserade is surprisingly bulky on the special side, as not even an unboosted max special attack neural natured Infernape’s Flamethrower is a guaranteed OHKO, which is helpful against suicide lead Infernapes who opt for accuracy. Her grass typingand decent special defense also allows me to switch in on some electric attacks, like Jolteon and Zapdos and hit back hard.

    Opinion: The choice scarf makes Roserade the ultimate anti-lead. Remember 6 months ago when Scarf Gengar was everywhere? Then all of a sudden everyone started carrying lum berry leads until the hypnosis of accuracy fell. Then all of a sudden everyone forgot about starting out with a fast sleep, meaning that it is once again anti-meta. And Roserade does have the fastest reliable sleep (for the sake of argument I’ll define “reliable sleep” as a sleep move with over 70% accuracy.) Besides sleep, Roserade is utterly walled by Heatran and most steels, fearing scizor switch-ins even more, but it isn’t too much of a bother for the rest of my team. The rest of my team can handle Heatran and other steels, and Scizor would be reluctant to switch in anyways if they think I’m the regular sashed toxic spikes Roserade with HP Fire. Roserade is invaluable to the team as the lead and fills a niche in my team that only she can. I’ve always like Roserade but have never been able to effectively use it on a team until now. Not that I think anyone will, but I don’t want anyone to look down on Roserade just because she is considered UU. The reason most UU don’t have a place on an OU team is because there is an OU Pokémon that outclasses the UU Pokémon and does their role better. But there is not one OU Pokémon that can do Roserade’s job on this team. The thing about being choiced is that if your opponent knows what’s coming, you still have to find a way to be effective, and there are not a lot of things that can stop a fast sleep.

    Teambuilding Process: When building this team, the first thing I thought of was the lead, which is unusual for me. I wanted a lead that would immediately get me the advantage at the start of the match. I thought about taunt leads before realizing Scarf Roserade was the perfect anti-lead, spinning out of my old Scarf Gengar days. This gave me a soft counter to Celebi, a guaranteed check against Swampert, and a toxic spikes absorber, giving me free reign to pick a bulky water of my choosing. But then I thought about how I could take advantage of the fast sleep to continue keeping my opponent on his back foot, leading to the selection of my next Pokémon.

    Jack Horner (Heatran) (F) @ Shuca Berry

    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 6 Atk/252 Spd/252 SAtk
    Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Explosion
    - Earth Power
    - Fire Blast
    - Stealth Rock
    Namesake: Jack Horner, ever since he was tricked into buying those magic beans, he’s been trying to swindle others into his own tricks, much like my Heatran.

    EV’s/Item/Nature: EV spread is rather simple once again, with the extra EV’s pumped into its attack for a stronger explosion. Originally I used Life Orb until I was convinced to use Shuca Berry to beat other Heatran’s guaranteed to further conceal Heatran’s tricks. The only time I really miss life orb is when exploding against intimidate users and Blissey and 2hkoing Tentacruel with Earth Power. I use max speed so I don’t waste the shuca berry if I don’t have to. And I lowered special defense as opposed to defense so that I can take earthquakes and still survive, while still surviving earth powers and maintaining a strong explosion.

    Move Set: Ah blufftran, basically the old set I used to always run, but with Stealth Rocks over HP Ice since I needed to fit Stealth Rocks somewhere on this team. I usually don’t hesitate too much to explode on anything that can cause me troubles. Earth Power mostly for other Heatrans. And the extra power by Fire Blast allows me to do cute things like 2hko Hippowdon, surviving an earthquake with the shuca berry.

    Team Role: Heatran gives me something to switch into fire attacks, gives me a great user of Stealth Rocks, a secondary counter to Celebi, always helpful steel typing and can always pull its own weight as long as it has explosion. This thing is a nightmare for stall teams, as it can hit everything hard, and Blissey is afraid of explosion. For example, I can fire blast Hippowdon, survive earthquake due to Shuca Berry, and then explode on the switch to Blissey. Or if I’m out against Blissey, I can Fire Blast on the switch to Rotom or Skarmory who expect an explosion. Sometimes against Blissey I just Fire Blast a few times to see what my opponent is going to do and just play mind games all day.

    Opinion: I always loved leadtran, but felt he was too predictable as a lead. Now that I’m using leadtran not as a lead, people expect it even less. Heatran is a Pokémon that I have used often and different versions of it. Overall it is just a favorite, filling in many roles, always carries its own weight and fun to use.

    Teambuilding Process: Okay, last we left off we had Roserade sleeping a Pokémon and a likely cold double switch up ahead. After I’ve slept a Pokémon, I always go straight to Heatran. If they don’t realize that I am scarfed, they will likely switch in something to wall Roserade, so let’s take a look at common Roserade switch-ins:

    Q: What do all of these Pokémon have in common? A: They are all beaten by Heatran. The most common switch-in to Roserade is either a special wall like Blissey whom Heatran can just set up rocks on before Blissey is afraid of explosion, playing mind games or sturdy steel types to resist Roserade’s grass attacks and weak HP Fire. The most important thing is that no one will switch in a bulky water in on Roserade for fear of its Grass Knot (although oddly enough quite a few people switch in Gyarados on a potential 120 bp grass knot for some weird reason.) Even if the opponent doesn’t switch, I can set up rocks against a sleeping opponent, and if it is Azelf, Bronzong, or Metagross, they can’t do much to me and switch fearing a Fire Blast. After I set up rocks, I assess the situation and then either explode or switch again. So, now a realistic outcome of the match thus far is this: I have slept a Pokémon, set up Stealth Rocks, and say exploded on something with Heatran. This means that I’ve seen the opponents lead, stopped their opening gambit, seen another Pokémon, and killed one other Pokémon. So, I now know half of the opponent’s team, with one Pokémon being asleep, and another one being dead. Meanwhile, the opponent has only seen two of my Pokémon, one of them is already dead, and if I’m lucky they still don’t know that Roserade is scarfed. Sounds like an advantage to me.

    Boy Blue (Vaporeon) (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 188 HP/252 Def/70 Spd
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Surf
    - Hidden Power [Electric]

    Namesake: Boy Blue’s character grew on me, so he replaces Bluebeard. Still fits because of the blue and all. A lot of people ask me why Boy Blue is a female, but that is just something that I do from a competitive standpoint. This is in case somebody tries to use attract on my Pokémon, I figure the majority of Pokémon are males (the default). It’s just like how I lower my attack IV’s to 0 on Pokémon that only use special attacks to prevent higher confusion damage.

    EV’s/Item/nature: Max defense with bold, and a good HP number. I have moved the extra 70 EV’s from special attack to speed, as suggested in the Vaporeon analysis. This has been more helpful than I’ve anticipated. It allows me to outspeed and pick off weakened Tyranitar, Magnezone, Metragross, and Scizor who don’t invest in too much speed. Lefties to feed the hunger in her heart.

    Move Set: Wish support is really helpful, and is usually supplied to the decently bulky Roserade and Heatran coming in on grass or electric attacks aimed at Vappy. Protect is a great scouting move and saves me from Heatran’s explosions. Surf is a great stab attack against neutral threats and super effectively beating Heatrans and Infernapes and HP Electric for Gyarados. I would love to fit Ice Beam on this set, but there just isn’t room for it, meaning I have to rely on my scarfers to check Salamence. Hopefully Salamence will just fear Ice Beam so I can keep it at bay.

    Team Role: Wish support and counters Gyarados and fire types. In case either attempt to switch into my Roserade while I go to Heatran, I can fall back to Vappy without worries. Water Absorb is invaluable against Rain Dance teams and water attacks aimed at Heatran. Is usually my first switch against Swampert, as she can handle any common non curse versions.

    Opinion: I love Vappy. I’ve used it a lot, but it has never really had a sticking role in any of my better teams. Last time I had her on a team I ended up replacing her with offensive Suicune for a hyper offensive flow. Well, this time she most definitely stuck. Worse part is that it gives Zapdos, who can be a pain if played right, a chance to switch in.

    Teambuilding Process: Remember earlier when I said Roserade’s removal of toxic spikes gave me free reign over my choice of bulky waters? Well I chose Vappy, as she is a personal favorite. Vappy especially supports Heatran and Fire/Water/Grass is a great type trinity in general. I usually can’t make a team without a bulky water, so I chose Vappy and her ability to beat Gyarados and fire types who might try to switch into Heatran after I’ve slept their lead with Roserade. Vappy is the only Pokémon that can be considered a true “wall” on this team, but she is needed to effectively stop some of the most dangerous threats in the game. She still doesn’t slow the team down.

    Prince Charming (Jirachi) @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 82 HP/252 Atk/176 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Ice Punch
    - Fire Punch
    - Iron Head
    - Trick

    Namesake: can’t really explain this one, but it just seems fitting. After all, doesn’t Jirachi just seem charming to you?

    EV’s/Item/Nature: My second choice scarfer for speed purposes. The Nature and EV spread aims to hit 308 speed before factoring in the scarf, so I can take on most +1 dragon dance Salamence’s. Also revenges dragon dance Tyranitar. I used to run a slightly bulkier spread with only 300 speed but it burned me a handful of times so I upped it. I’m still thinking about upping the speed all the way to at least tie with jolly dragon dance Salamence.

    Move Set: Ice punch is to revenge kill Flygon and Salamence. Fire Punch is to check Lucario (even though it only does about 71%) and Scizor. Iron Head is an amazing move. I’ve won many games on some flinch hax. It has stab and a 60% chance of flinch allowing me to beat things I can’t quite ohko like Gengar, Machamp, and Tyranitar. Trick is to get rid of the scarf against stall (I’ll outspeed most stall teams) or if I’m paralyzed, since he doesn’t have Natural Cure like Roserade. I miss not having thunder punch to cover Gyarados, but that is what Vaporeon is for.

    Team Role: Amazing revenge killer as long as I’m initially careful of Magnezone (although, some don’t like trick, all don’t like fire punch, and I’ve flinched many to death with iron head.) I usually hang onto the scarf as long as I can, but I don’t hesitate todump it if I think it can help the team. Can still be effective if the opponent knows I’m choiced since it has a nice stab iron head and trick to dump the scarf. Even after dumping the scarf, I can still check Scizor, Lucario, Tyranitar, and unboosted Salamence. Jirachi gives me another helpful steel type in addition to Heatran, who usually booms earlier. Even if I get stuck in, say, fire punch against Tyranitar or Salamence, I have no problem switching out, as when I get back in, I should still be faster than them.

    Opinion: Jirachi fits perfectly into this team due to its natural bulk and nice typing. Of course, I absolutely love trick. Trick allows me to support the team if I can get Zapdos stuck in heat wave or Swampert stuck in earthquake. I hate it when my opponent has a max jolly dragon dance Salamence, in which case I have to sacrifice Roserade to find out Salamence’s speed, trick it into outraging and maybe losing another Pokémon to this, before bringing in Jirachi to take one outrage and then ice punch. When I started using this Jirachi, it was still quite a surprise, allowing me to get many surprise kills, as most people opted for the sub-calm mind set, which is once again the most popular.

    Teambuilding Process: Jirachi was a tricky selection (pardon the pun). My previous team that I scrapped was built around Celebi/Jirachi/Heatran/Bulky Water/2 Fire resists. The idea behind that team was to have two fire weaknesses and have the rest of the team immune to or resist fire. I basically replaced Celebi with Roserade and already had Heatran and a bulky water, so I figured that Jirachi would once again work well, and I did really like Jirachi. Besides, Jirachi covered up a lot of holes on the team, checking some important threats, giving me a physical hitter, and trick to further screw with stall.

    Snow White (Kingdra) (F) @ Lum Berry
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Outrage
    - Waterfall
    - Dragon Dance
    - Substitute

    Namesake: Well, she’s just beautiful.

    EV’s/Item/Nature: I thought about going with a bulky spread but the extra power was just too tempting. Max speed since I want to beat other Kingdras who don’t max, especially in rain. Kingdra gives me a good check against rain dance teams, as many of them are weak to opposing Kingdra's, and I can beat their Kingdra since I max speed. This is why I use Swift Swim over Sniper, so I don't have to resort to stalling out rain with Vappy. Lum Berry to help against status and if anything, it cures the confusion from outrage, acting as a nice safety.

    Move Set: Dragon/water has great coverage, and both are amazing attacking physical types. Dragon Dance is obvious as I wanted a stat-upper in this slot. Substitute, since it works well with Lum Berry to block status, and I got the idea from TAY. I can switch into status, sub, and dragon dance against slower threats like Blissey. Or I can dragon dance and then sub to protect myself from trick or will-o-wisp from Rotoms switching in. I never really cared for using hydro pump.

    Team Role: Either tears a hole in the opponents’ team leaving enough of an opening for the rest of my team to take it, or ends the game herself. My stat up sweeper, which I love to have at least one of on my teams. Also resists fire attacks aimed at Roserade and Jirachi. I don’t have a set time to release her to wreck havoc, but she usually comes out middle to late game.

    Opinion: I’ve used dragon dance Kingdra before, but it was always just “good” for me. Then I tried it out with lum berry and substitute, which fixes her main weakness: status. Amazing typing always lets her set up. She is seriously amazing, not much walls her. Even Celebi is 2hko’ed and Skarmory can fall if I get a lucky flinch. Her only weakness is to reflect and things that get lucky when stalling out outrage.

    Teambuilding Process: This is where things get really interesting. These last two team slots were decided on at around the same time. At the present I had a solid core of Roserade/heatran/Vaporeon/Jirachi. It was time to start thinking about late game sweepers. I needed something that was physical to beat BLissey. I also wanted something that resisted fire, immune to electric attacks, with a little speed and could stat up and sweep. It was then that I realized Garchomp was the perfect Pokémon for this team. After remembering, that Chomp was banned, I decided on Kingdra. While I wanted a ground type or electric immunity, any ground type was too slow and left me quite a bit susceptible to Starmie. Kingdra, meanwhile, could set up on Starmie. Kingdra can still do well against Zapdos one on one, and the lum berry fixed her ability to switch in on thunder wave to an extent.

    Bigby Wolf (Salamence) (F) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 82 Atk/176 Spd/252 SAtk
    Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Flamethrower

    Namesake: My favorite character, The Big Bad Wolf. He could only be Salamence and the name fits perfectly.

    EV’s/Item/Nature: This was Raikou Lover’s original spread and move set. Eventually he dumped the attack to max speed, but I really liked having the extra oomph on outrage. The speed is to hit 308, to outspeed any ice punch Lucario who try to get cute. Life Orb to truly destroy walls. I chose naïve over hasty because I wanted to be able to survive some Scizor bullet punches and Lucario extreme speeds, although I wish I didn’t have to lower either stat.

    Move Set: Nothing can safely switch in on this. draco meteor + outrage kills Blissey, as does earthquake + outrage. Flamethrower beats steels, still hitting hard after the special attack drop from draco meteor. I usually just start off with a draco meteor no matter what, nab a ko. Then they might expect me to be special and switch in non scarf Heatran, whom I’ll earthquake.

    Team Role: I usually don’t switch him in on attacks; rather I switch him in after something has already died. He always gets his share of attacking done, and absolutely destroys stall. Much like Kingdra, he usually comes out middle to late game to wreck havoc, either opening a hole for the rest of the team or sealing the win himself. If I can stop stealth rocks early with sleep, unlimited switch ins really helps this guy. If I trick a scarf onto an earthquake user aiming at Jirachi, I can bring him in to wreck havoc on the switch.

    Opinion: Salamence also became a favorite of mine, especially after it got outrage. I started out by using choice band Salamence before dabbling in special bulky and dragon dance versions. However, I found that too often with the dragon dance version, if I didn’t get the sweep, I would lose. So, I decided to try out MixMence instead, as I needed something that can break down walls. When I first started using this Salamence, MixMence wasn’t as popular as it is now, and no one really expected it. Some people still don’t.

    Teambuilding Process: I wanted another fire resist, a wall breaker, something to take advantage of no stealth rocks , to switch in on earthquakes, and to work well with (or replacing) Kingdra. In these last two slots I thought of a lot of combinations, Tyranitar/Salamence, Kingdra/Tyranitar, etc. Eventually I decided that two dragon dancers wouldn’t work and Tyranitar’s sand stream, while not absolutely hated by the team, didn’t go perfectly with it, as MixMence losing 16% each turn was a tad much. Eventually I settled on an old favorite, who fit everything perfectly, rounding off the team.

    Reason for making this: With my elimination from the tournament, I am thrown into a metagame of Latias. And yes, one Pokémon really does wreck this team. Latias likes to come out to play in the middle to late game, after scouting for Scizors and Tyranitars. My Pokémon that like to come out and play middle to late game are also dragons, and just happen to be outsped. Besides that, I had reliable ways to check Salamence, but those methods do not apply to Latias. Latias laughs at Roserade’s weak HP Ice, Jirachi’s ice punch is not even a 2hko, Vappy is set up bait, Heatran dies to surf, and neither Kingdra nor Salamence can get off an attack. Is this team beyond salvaging in a metagame with Latias? Should I just build another team? Or maybe I’ll just take a bit of a vacation from Pokémon ~_~
  2. Scofield

    Scofield Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhh, Kate.......
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Sep 14, 2007
    Pokémon Threat List (problem Pokémon are highlighted)

    As you can see below, I rely on the core of Roserade/Jirachi/Heatran/Vaporeon (especially) to counter most threats, waiting for an opportunity to allow Kingdra and Salamence to on wreck havoc late game. There is not too much that can cause this team problems, but electric users like Zapdos and Jolteon sometimes have to be played around.



    Azelf-jirachi or Heatran.

    Blissey-I deal with it a variety of ways. Either I switch in Jirachi If I don’t expect toxic or if I expect twave, I switch in Kingdra, and use the lum/sub combo to set up. To know what status Blissey has, I usually switch in Roserade to scout with Natural Cure. Blissey is also quite often the victim of Heatran’s explosions or a late game sweep by Salamence.

    Breloom-Can be a problem if it gets in on Vappy, as I don’t have a status absorber. I usually go to Roserade to break the sub, possibly sacrificing it to get in Jirachi or Salamence. Kingdra can also use the sub/lum combo to beat it.


    Celebi-Roserade or Heatran.

    Cresselia-Usually Heatran, or I try to trick it with Jirachi. In general I just try to wear it down.


    Dragonite-Jirachi is a good initial switch in, if it gets ko’ed I can check it with Salamence or Roserade.



    Electivire-If it switches in on Vappy using HP Electric I just go to Roserade, or I stay in and surf it (thunder punch cant’ ohko) before revenging it.




    Gengar-Gengar can’t switch in on much, if it does, I usually go to Jirachi.




    Heracross-Heracross can’t switch in much, I usually just attack it with what I have and then check it with

    Roserade or Jirachi.



    Jirachi-Jirachi beats the sub-cm version and the scarf version.

    Jolteon-Can be tricky, I usually switch in Roserade to electric attacks or flinch it with Jirachi

    Kingdra-Tough, I usually go to Jirachi to trick it into using waterfall and then going to Vappy or go to
    Roserade and try to get the ohko.

    Lucario-I can attack it with what’s out and then check it with Jirachi.

    Machamp-Tricky, I try to get in Jirachi to flinch it to death, or revenge it with Salamence.

    Magnezone-Heatran mostly.

    Mamoswine-I play around with resistances, switching Salamence in for intimidate on earthquakes if rocks aren’t up before going to Vaporeon or Jirachi for the ice shard.

    Metagross-Heatran mostly, as most Metagross don’t blindly earthquake, and I have shuca berry if they do. Vaporeon also isn’t terrible, resisting steel.


    Porygon-Z-Heatran or Jirachi.

    Rhyperior-I have to be careful but Vaporeon, or I check it with Roserade.

    Rotom-A-Can be tough, but usually Heatran.

    Salamence-Usually my initial switch in is Jirachi. If Salamence is + speed and gets in a dragon dance, I can have some troubles. My best bet then is to trick it into outrageing and then revenging it with Jirachi, taking one outrage.

    Scizor-Jirachi or Heatran.


    Snorlax-jirachi, if it curses, I just trick.

    Starmie-Can be tough, I just play around it using Roserade and trying to set up on it with Kingdra.

    Suicune-Roserade usually, or I explode on it.

    Swampert-Vaporeon or Roserade.

    Tentacruel-Set up bait for Kingdra.


    Tyranitar-I usually play around it, as it can’t switch into much. I can leaf storm it with Roserade, Iron Head with Jirachi, surf with Vappy, or earthquake with Salamence.

    Vaporeon-set up bait for Kingdra.


    Yanmega-Heatran, Jirachi. Usually leads in which case I can sleep it.

    Zapdos-Tricky, I can play around it though using Roserade, Jirachi, and Heatran. Kingdra can try to set up on it. I usually try to force it out so next time it comes in its death fodder for Salamence or whomever.

    That’s not all….

    Styles Of Play Threat List

    Balanced: My favorite style, probably has the best chance at beating this team. I just stick to the game plan.

    Baton Pass: Just keep attacking Ninjask, trick scarf onto something, explode on something, set up my own Kingdra, or just concentrate on ruining their chain. Prediction is key.

    Hail: Roserade screws with Abomasnow pretty badly. Heatran does a number to these teams, as does Jirachi and Salamence. Stallrein can be beat using Vappy to stall, hitting it on the switch with Salamence, or tricking it a scarf.

    Offensive: I’m balanced well enough to handle it.

    Rain Dance: Sleep the lead. I play with resistances to water and grass to stall the 8 turns up, using Vappy to absorb water and protect. Or I can set my own Kingdra loose.

    Sandstream: Ever common, my team doesn’t love it, but doesn’t hate it either. The worse part being Salamence taking 16% every turn, wouldn’t stop him from killing things though. Two immunities and one lefties user.

    Stall: I hate stall so I make sure my teams can beat it. Sleep one Pokémon by spamming sleep powder and waiting for Blissey to switch out. Heatran blows up on something. Jirachi tricks scarf onto something else. And then Kingdra and Salamence (especially) rip things apart late game.

    Sunny Day: I think I can beat it okay…

  3. Scofield

    Scofield Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhh, Kate.......
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Sep 14, 2007
    I do believe that I am entitled to one after 24 hour bump ^_^

    Or maybe I'll just edit this post to contain more team information....
  4. Crossfire


    Jun 22, 2008
    Or maybe your team is already perfect :o
  5. kazuya


    Aug 20, 2008
    um y not sniper on kingdra since you have no rain dance set up it would generally be useless in my opinion i think that a sniper set would be more efficient cus if you got the crit it would kill it

    just throwing it out

    Dragon pulse is also very efficient on tran becuase of incoming kingdras so another move to consider since Gliscor falls to fire blast anyway.

    maybe test out taking one of the dragon moves on mence and adding roost just for better survivability. the longer it is there and the healthier it is the better ^^

    all in all good team not to many problems imo.

    I hope i helped.
  6. Scofield

    Scofield Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhh, Kate.......
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Sep 14, 2007
    @Cross-I appreciate the thought, but I already know I have some problems with some pokemon, such as substitute attacking Zapdos.

    @kazuya-Sorry, I didn't properly explain it in the thread. Swift Swim allows me to beat opposing rain teams, especially since I max speed on my Kingdra, I can beat many Kingdra who don't. Without swift swim, my only resort is stalling out rain with Vappy, something I don't like to rely on. And many rain teams are surprisingly Kingdra weak.

    Dragon pulse would be nice and all but would could I fit it over? I usually just end up exploding on Kingdra.

    Roost is nice, but I found the "double deuce" Salamence to be far superior, as he isn't meant to last long, either die ripping a hole in the other team or close the game, for which I do need outrage for.
  7. kazuya


    Aug 20, 2008
    lol well at least i get an A for trying

    sorry i could not help

    do you mind if i shoddy test this and get back to you?
  8. Scofield

    Scofield Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhh, Kate.......
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Sep 14, 2007
    Go for it, test it to your delight (everyone), but be warned that with Latias around, this team is no where nearly as efficient as it was pre-Latias.
  9. Scofield

    Scofield Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhh, Kate.......
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Sep 14, 2007
    Well, yeah, pretty much seeing as how this team was made while Latias was still uber. In the games I played against Latias, I used Jirachi and Heatran to wall it but both got worn down quick. Oh and gk doesn't ohko vappy but draco meteor does. I also don't see why you would have to predict a switch to mence as you outspeed me and I wouldn't be switching him into Latias anyways. You wouldn't even need anything else to take out roserade as it can't really do anything to latias anyways. This doesn't stop the fact that Latias is pain though. MY question was, is there any way to fix this though?

    And thank you, Sheep.
  10. 6A9 Ace Matador

    6A9 Ace Matador veni, vidi, vici, VERSACE, VERSACE VERSACE

    Oct 10, 2008
    Nice team, its been a while since i saw so much effort put into an RMT ^_^
    I think you should lead with Heatran (Keep the set) since with Latias around, there has been a lot of Tar, Jirachi, Mettagross leads. Replace Explosion with WoW, since that way, instead of exploding on threats such as TAR, you can just status it, and render it useless. In Roserade's slot, scrap it (This may seem a little harsh =[) And replace it with CB Scizor. i recomend standard CB but with 252 Attack, 252 Sp Def. With no leftovers, you're better off puring those EV's into SP Def so that it can take some special hits from Latias better, and OHKO it on the switch with Pursuit, or 2hko it if it stays in. I was going to recomend TAR as a mid game pursuiter, but your team looks like it could be hurt by SS (The Lum and the Life Orb).

    Nice team =D

    Edit: So you know, Latias Specs Draco Meteor never OHKO's your vappy if you protect and get lefties recovery if i recall correctly, so it may be an option to stick Ice Beam over surf, so you get a Pseudo Bolt Beam, and have another check against Latias.
  11. LuistheNinja


    Oct 19, 2008
    OMG I like your team alot, I will sure try it (since you dont mind, do you?). It has enough balance all between and some useful Inmunities which are Fire, Water, Ground, Poison (lol not so useful) and a nice x4 Resistance to both Steel and Grass the first becoming really common.

    Anyways, relying on Heatran's explotion to take blissey out is rather poor, maybe give Jirachi Brick Break or Drain Punch to deal with Bliss? Im not sure about this its just a recomendation you can either take it or let it go I dont mind at all. Im jsut saying you might need Heatran for later and making it explote "right of the bat" is not that good, Shuca berry is nice for a surprise while they expect Scarf.

    About your "problem" with absorbing Status I disagree you have plenty of options to take status Toxic can be taken by either Jirachi or Heatran since they are inmune. If Roserade isnt damage she can keep switching in and out to take the status for the team and then clear it off with Natural Cure however this will require alot of prediction. Kingra will only be able to do this once but after the other partners are down there is nothing left to do lol.

    Hum...As you said there is a minor problem with Electric types, especially those who carry HP Ice, all I can think of at this moment is an Electivire taking advantage of Vapreon's HP Electric which would be a huge problem for your team, Zapdos is also a bit harder to take down since your only respone is Heatran's Earth Power but Zapdos is inmune to it, else than that CM Raikou who isnt that common on OU is something to be scared at.

    In general its really balanced having trouble with only one type is really nice, I love your team and you are using pokemons that I like lol. Lemmie give it a try and see what happens. Good Luck & have fun!
  12. Scofield

    Scofield Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhh, Kate.......
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Sep 14, 2007
    @Ace: Scizor would be nice but that really increases my electric/zapdos weakness and take out my only resistance. Vappy without protect can't take on heatran effectively, but I'd still add ice beam in a heartbeat if Latias weren't capable of shrugging it off.

    @Warthog: MoP probably got the idea from me ~_~ (just kidding, he's a genius, if anything I probably took it from him without even realizing it)

    @Luis: Yeah go ahead and test it out, just let me know how it goes. Once again beware that this team is much less deadly in a Latias metagame. I don't have problems with Blissey at all. I'm just saying Heatran can take out blissey. Jirachi is fine without a fighting move as Iron Head 2hko's bliss and has that nice flinch chance. And yeah, Kingdra can only switch into status once, but once it's in it can block it with sub and Kingdra hardly ever switches in more than once (Mence too, who can also kill Bliss).

    When it comes to pokemon like Bliss, I just ask myself: Will blissey contribute to or hinder my late game sweep? Since I can sweep physically, all I need in the early game is to force it out once to be swept in the late game.
  13. animenagai

    is a Past WCoP Champion

    Nov 19, 2007
    The most replaceable member on this team is roserade it doesn't counter much and really is just a sleep lead. It's not good enough as a revenge killer with stuff like DD mence and scizor running the show.

    I would switch roserade to CB lax. I originally thought about using t-tar, but that would give you a triple ground weak. Use adamant natured, 252 atk, 252 sp.def. Run Return, pursuit, fire puch, super power. I find return over body slam so important as otherwise you'll need a bit of luck to beat suicune (who you are weak to). This lax beats pretty much an special threat out there so you can deal with latias, starmie, zapdos etc.

    After that, I would scarfing your heatran so you can deal with lucraio better. You can still run SR on that thing over explosion.

    You now have a slight swampert weak but I guess vappy can deal with it well enough.

    Hope I helped scofied. Just returning the favour.
  14. Scofield

    Scofield Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhh, Kate.......
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Sep 14, 2007
    Hmm, interesting, I do like cblax and used it a bit recently. Lax would make a nice band aid for the team. For the record though, Rose counters plently, celebi alone has been worth it, and it can revenge ddmences ^_^. Although getting set up on by Latias is a bit of a worry.

    I think 3 choicers would be 1 too many though, I might also see if I can get away with staying shucca on tran, as lax is just as weak as rose was to lucario. I guess I'd have to lead with heatran again then.

    I'll test it out sometime, thanks.
  15. Warthog

    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Dec 20, 2004
    nah the team Im talking about is hella old. Instead of using Sludge Bomb it has Weather Ball due to T-tar being on the team. Was pretty bad ass.
  16. LuistheNinja


    Oct 19, 2008
    Ok, I tried it on a few shoddy battles and it really works I just happened to have really bad luck at using Sleed Powder kept missing. Anyways, I did fin out that after setting up kingra/Salamence its sort of a game over just have to make sure there are no other Steel types around.

    I also fund out that Heatran was mostly useful for killing those Steel types so Mence or Kingra could sweep, so I thought what if I changed Heatran for Magnezone? It works about the same altough you loose the x4 resistance to Steel which lets Scizor hit harder then revenge kill with HP Fire. When running magnezone I did miss the Rocks that is the only reason why I would only keep Heatran.

    About that CBLax idk, have never use dit befor...so I have no experience with it however Roserade is a nice lead I would definately keep it and its about your only response to all those bulky waters.
  17. animenagai

    is a Past WCoP Champion

    Nov 19, 2007
    How well does it counter celebi? Celebi often packs HP fire and has recovery moves (which roserade doesn't). If it's running the rare CM set, it can even set up on it. I did get the speed stat of roserade wrong though, so you're right baout it countering adamant DD mence.

    How does shucca on heatran help you at all against lucario? If you're scarfed you can at least revenge kill it, if it has shucca, you get OHKO'd by CC.

    Oh and btw, it's a myth that 3 scarfers are too much on a team. Most phases of a battle is hit and run. I launch an attack, you provide a counter. I'm forced to switch, you try and get me on the switch etc. I don't feel like being locked into an attack is that painful when you're getting the extra speed and power in return, along with the ability to deal with threats that comes with it. Just go for it.

    EDit: to luistheninja, that lax counters bulky waters every bit as well as roserade. Not to mention it doesn't have that ice weak so you won't get decked by an ice beam on the switch.
  18. Scofield

    Scofield Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhh, Kate.......
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Sep 14, 2007
    The original draft of this team did have zone support for mence, but really heatran is just a better pokemon while still beating the same threats. And fire is a great attacking type and absorbing WoW is kind of important. And of course rocks.

    Roserade can handle celebi, it has nice special defenses, enough to take something like 3 hp fires (I didn't calculate it, just from experience) but I can beat celebi to the ko with sludge bomb. Just as importantly, I can switch into leech seed or twave without fear.

    In reference to lucario I mostly meant that I just liked non scarftran better as I feel it is just too easily walled. I like my exploders to be able to explode whenever. I'll try it out, I just have terrible experiences with scarftran.
  19. XxBlueCleric.xX


    Jan 13, 2009
    First off, I'd like to say this is one of the greatest RMT's I've seen...and I absolutely love this team.

    BUT I'm not entirely convinced that Roserade should be relied upon to counter certain threats. That moveset is simply Scizor and Metagross bait. With the introduction of Latias came the rise of Banded Scizors who carry Pursuit. Roserade's 60/55 spread means it's easily disposed of by a Choiced Pursuit.

    Roserade doesn't cover many threats but does Revenge kill for this team. HOWEVER, I'm in agreement with what Animenagai said regarding Roserade being the most replacable member. Only I'm still thinking of a replacement since this team is just so well-constructed...

    In any case, Heatran is a solid Celebi counter (Especially to the popular HP Fire set mentioned) so no worries there. Thunder Wave will hamper it's ability to handle Magnezone, Metagross, and unfortunately Scizor though, so you'll need to watch out there...(If you go with the Scarf suggestion on Heatran though, then you'd definitely need to be more concerned)

    To update this team for lati metagame, you'd probably be best off by changing the last two Pokes you chose, but Salamence seems like the perfect poke for this team and the team looks like it could help accomodate a Salamence sweep.

    • In Kingdra's description, you say you want something to beat Blissey, have a Fire/Electric resist, be fast, and stat up to sweep. Latias fits these descriptions and can handle Electric pokes well. Heck, it can even set up CM on some Bulky Waters like Kingdra does. It can also be a pretty nice Revenger thanks to 110 speed.
    Anyways, this team is really amazing and has no weaknesses besides Latias. Seriously, this RMT is inspirational. !!Nice job!!
  20. Scofield

    Scofield Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhh, Kate.......
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Sep 14, 2007
    Oh yeah, I usually rely on Heatran a lot to switch into celebi, however it isn't my first switch as I don't want to get seeded or twaved. When using Roserade I usually only use it to kill something when it is a surprise, like scarf flygon or when I have to like +1 dd mence. Other than that I often double switch it out to heatran. Once the steel is eliminated Roserade quite often has a nice sludgebomb sweep. Yeah, Roserade is probably replaceable, but I can't think of anything to replace it with, just like you.

    As for replacing Kingdra with Latias, I had thought about that but I hesitated since the set that fits this team best (cm/refresh/recover/dp) is walled badly by scizor who is already tricky for this team. Not to mention that it take 6 or more turns before it can really threaten Blissey, and a lot can go wrong during those turns. I am open to replacing both pokemon though. Maybe zapdos in one of the slots and something like rhyperior in the other?

    EDIT: Thanks to whoever 4-starred this ^_^

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