White Herb == more Draco Meteor?

[Dragontamer]

I was just playing in the Battle Tower, when suddenly an Altera used Draco Meteor. That was fine and all... but then White Herb *cured* the -special attack.

I think this warrents discussion. White herb + Draco Meteor any other stat-down attack (Overheat, and to a lesser degree: Close Combat/SuperPower) would be more efficient than Life Orb and even the Choice Items if we are aiming for the long term. Yes, Choice items increase that first attack by 50%. However, White Herb effectively increases the second attack by 100%, and the third attack by 50%.

So if there is ever a case where you use Draco Meteor more than once in a row, then White Herb would have been more effective (with a few obvious exceptional cases of course. As in that first hit would have killed the opponent or you would of had to switch out anyway)

 

[Mr_Hobo]

I could see this working, although I'd still prefer to get a boost off of Choice Specs or Choice Scarf and just run away after doing it than use White Herb one time and then suffer the losses and have to run away anyhow. Choice Specs lets you hit harder and boosts your other attacks while White Herb saves you one stat boost and then does nothing. I prefer long term results to short term results.

 

[Misty]

Meanwhile, Choice Specs increases the power of all your OTHER attacks. Further, you can just switch, which something like Salamence is going to be doing anyway after using Draco Meteor.

 

[SNX7]

This combo is often seen in BT, but doesn't (and probably won't) get much use in comptetitave battling. The thing is, Specsmence really isn't Specsmence without his Choice Specs. They provide a much needed 1.5x boost to his SpAtk.

And I'd rather OHKO with Draco Meteor, than almost kill something, get my status restored, and eat a TWave, Hypnosis, Ice Beam, Ice Punch, or anything like that.

 

[Necrochild313]

Works well for CPU teams in the battle tower, because they believe that all of your pokes have Shadow Tag.

 

[Syn]

actually one of them actually switched out on me once

 

[SNX7]

Me to, although it DID switch out Staraptor to Miltank on Lucario's Aura Sphere, and then sent Staraptor right back out. Kind of a "De da duh" moment.

 

[Dragontamer]

Switching gives your opponent a free turn to setup. So it is always a negative to switch out.

And I'd rather OHKO with Draco Meteor, than almost kill something, get my status restored, and eat a TWave, Hypnosis, Ice Beam, Ice Punch, or anything like that.

Thats one of the conditions that I was talking about. However, if you revenge-kill with Draco Meteor, then your second hit off will damage the 2nd pokemon much more.

Second, specsmace was calculated to have Choice Specs on him. I'm thinking of creating a new moveset with a (possibly) different pokemon. Not changing an already well working moveset.

White Herb offers the following advantages:
1. Versatile -- Obviously, a moveset that utilizes the White Herb won't be JUST using a single attack. We already got choice items for that. We need to look for something that probably has a statup involved.
2. Staying Power -- You need to get the 2nd hit off or else you might as well use choice specs.

That said, I'm looking at any pokemon that can stat-up while at the same time utilize an attack like Overheat or Draco Meteor.

 

[Steeler]

The problem is that White Herb is a one-time use item, and those types of items usually aren't effective in competitive battling. Obvious exceptions include pinch berries and maybe Chesto/Lum.

 

[lilwartz]

Switching gives your opponent a free turn to setup. So it is always a negative to switch out. Switch to a counter maybe?

Thats one of the conditions that I was talking about. However, if you revenge-kill with Draco Meteor, then your second hit off will damage the 2nd pokemon much more.

Second, specsmace was calculated to have Choice Specs on him. I'm thinking of creating a new moveset with a (possibly) different pokemon. Not changing an already well working moveset.

White Herb offers the following advantages:
1. Versatile -- Obviously, a moveset that utilizes the White Herb won't be JUST using a single attack. We already got choice items for that. We need to look for something that probably has a statup involved. white herb only works once though, and intimidate will ruin that, iirc
2. Staying Power -- You need to get the 2nd hit off or else you might as well use choice specs.

That said, I'm looking at any pokemon that can stat-up while at the same time utilize an attack like Overheat or Draco Meteor.

 

[Misty]

Chances are you're going to be switching anyway. Anything that comes into Salamence is either going to die, or switch out to an appropriate counter, or threaten to OHKO you. I'm going to take a page from Jumpman and analyze all of these ridiculously so you get the point:

1) Let's say the thing that switches into Draco Meteor is KO'd. Choice Specs would have worked just the same. Now a counter comes out, be it Blissey, or Weavile, or whatever. Salamence is going to be switching, whether it had Choice Specs, White Herb, or TM27.

2) Let's say a counter comes out that survives Draco Meteor. For them, the knowledge that you don't have Choice Specs makes their life a lot easier - they're going to know that their counter is probably safe. Choice Specs would have done more damage, and you're switching, so it's a loss.

3) Now, the supposed advantageous position - a Pokemon comes out that survives a 1x Draco Meteor, but will then be KO'd by another move. The only options I could think for this would be Steel types like Heatran. The thing is, once they see that you have White Herb and not Choice Specs, they're going to know that something else is coming, and they're switching to a different counter. You'd be surprised, but a 350 special attack Draco Meteor is actually fairly survivable, even for things that don't resist it, like Suicune. And honestly, you could have just predicted before with the Choice Specs.


So ultimately, you're basically on a net loss on all accounts.

 

[Lee]

Well, I have used White Herb quite a lot with my Sceptile. He can use it okay due to outspeeding nearly anything, but there has been times when it has been completely wasted. This happened just last night.

Sceptile used Leaf Storm
Dusknoir fainted
Sceptile restored status using it's White Herb
Opponent send out Weavile.

So I had to switch in my Weavile counter or lose Sceptile. Basically, the White Herb was completely wasted, and it's happened a few other times with Swellow and Aerodactyl.

Salamence would suffer even more due to nearly every team having a bulky water or fast Ice Beam user. Salamence will defeat a Pokemon with Draco Meteor and restore his status only for the foe to send out a Pokemon that forces Salamence to switch. BAM, wasted White Herb.

 

[Dragontamer]

The problem is that White Herb is a one-time use item, and those types of items usually aren't effective in competitive battling. Obvious exceptions include pinch berries and maybe Chesto/Lum.

If there is something wrong with White Herb, then it will come out as discussion unfolds. But holding a prejudice against one-use items is pretty bad, especially when there are discussions going on about using Fling and Nature's Blessing... which are one-use attacks on top of one-use items.

Switch to a counter maybe?

Counter-teams just aren't my thing. With the now very offensive metagame, you do not have the room to run counters for every pokemon. Furthermore, the "counter" to switching out is staying in and using a stat-up attack. With the free turn, you might just give the opponent the time to Dragon-Dance, Belly-Drum + Salac or whatever.

Regardless, the counter-pokemon is still faced with a 1-turn disadvantage after the switch. Giving my own pokemon an unnecessary disadvantage is always a bad thing IMO.

EDIT: I mean, if I'm forced to do it then yeah. But I'd like to see if I can make a team where that isn't necessary.

white herb only works once though, and intimidate will ruin that, iirc

That is a valid concern, but I think it can be avoided by simply not starting with this pokemon.

 

[Blackbeltsam]

I'd use White Herb if I was using Overheat and Draco Meteor in the same moveset.


Otherwise, I prefer a hit and run playstyle.

 

[Dragontamer]

Thank you Misty and Lee for bringing up very valid points. However, I'm not ready to give up... call me stubborn. :-p

So basically, we need a difficult-to-counter pokemon with staying power. Ironically, while I wanted to stay away from Salamence, looks like everyone is focusing on him... He is a Dragon-Dancer afterall. So I think this may just cut it as the best I can do with White-Herb. This is not an example of a "good" white herb moveset, but perhaps it will show you along the lines of what I'm thinking:

Salamence @ white herb
------
Dragon Dance
Dragon Claw / Dragon Rush
Flamethrower/Fire Fang
Draco Meteor

Dragon Dance for the +speed mostly. A single Dragon Dance should make it outspeed non-scarfed Weavile. Under the conditions of a single dragon dance, Draco Meteor still has higher Base Power than Dragon Claw and still much better accuracy than Dragon Rush. Additionally, you cannot be walled by pure physical wall, nor by a pure special wall.

Dragon + Fire to hurt everything neutral except for Heatran. Depends if you're more special oriented EV or attack-oriented EVs.

Scarf Weavile counters it if it can survive the switch in... or it can always revenge kill.

If there is a better pokemon for this job... please suggest. The only problem (okay, its a big problem) but I see Life-Orb helping out with the above set possibly more than White Herb + Draco Meteor... unless Draco Meteor is shot twice from this thing. But perhaps you can see where I'm trying to go with this. The +speed makes the list of possible counters drop (cutting things like non-scarf Weavile out), and the +attack even more so.

Again, I'm not aiming for a Specsmace replacement. I'm looking for a different strategy that may utilize the White Herb before discounting it.

-----------

Edit: Also, in a baton-pass environment where switching out means you've wasted the 2 or 3 turns setting your pokemon up means that strategies that revolve around switching out (aka, Choice Items and "Classic" Draco Meteor) are not exactly the best thing you can do. I think a white herb should be at least considered when you can assume a Nasty Plot and/or Agility being passed to Salamence.

 

[Misty]

I'd be really curious to see what kind of spread you came up with for that. Unless you have a huge helping of SPATK EVs, Draco Meteor is liable to be a fairly inferior option. Like I said, even 350 is pretty survivable. Unless you plan to pretty much max attack and special attack with Mild/Rash and just rely on DD for speed... Fact of the matter is, though, you're probably simply better off with a standard Mixmence.

 

[Dragontamer]

I guess White Herb is just suited then for a BP team only then, if at all. Again just incase you missed my edit earlier... it doesn't make sense to switch out and lose all your setup from a Baton Pass. I can't really think of a way to get both the required +special attack and +speed to make it a viable strategy... unless I run Timid + Dragon Dance... or chain a Ninjask to some Nasty Plot or Calm Mind passer... (both of which sound a little stupid to me to be honest. Wasting 2 turns. 1st is the baton pass in, 2nd is the Dragon Dance or wasting 2 turns and 2 pokemon on dedicated baton passers...)

 

[GonE]

White Herb was useful when chaos used it on Aerodactyl in combination with Cursepassing from Umbreon.

Also lol White herb is wasted when you are intimidated :].

 

[Septen]

Instead of white herb, what about setting up something like Mist before ?

 

[Tricky]

White Herb on Kingdra w/ Draco Meteor can work.
Especially when RainDance it just rain danced and you want to do as much as possible in those few turns.

 

[Matt]

Instead of white herb, what about setting up something like Mist before ?

EDIT: Unless Netbattle is wrong, Mist doesn't stop the stat reduction from Overheat. It's probably like Clear Body, in that it only stops stat reductions caused by the opponent, and not yourself.

 

[Footnote]

The reasons that White Herb is inferior to Choice Specs on Salamence with Draco Meteor are that Dragon attacks hit nearly everything for neutral damage and that Salamence has a huge Ice weakness, making it more of a hit-and-run Pokémon.

Generally, if I put a White Herb on something, it's a primarily physical attacker that also has a move that lowers its own stats (Superpower, Close Combat, Overheat, Leaf Storm, etc). This way, it can either reverse the effects of Intimidate or make up for lost stats after using a move, raising the number of occasions it becomes useful.

Dragontamer, I understand exactly what you're saying about switching putting you at an inherent disadvantage. I'm also with you when you say that counter teams aren't your thing. But with the metagame that Smogon has created, trying to use a team that's not primarily a counter team is fighting an uphill battle.

If you really want to make use of one-use items like White Herb, do it in Double Battles. In Doubles, there are no 'counters'. It is very unlikely that whatever you bring out will be resistant to all the moves of both of your opponent's Pokémon, and while you're switching your opponent has just focus-fired your other Pokémon to death. This environment allows you to make good use of many one-shot items and moves. Besides, Double Battles are where the real strategy is anyway.

 

[kap^^]

theres a problem:

Pokes with intimidate destroy the whiteherb...........dont u think?

PD: salamence, gyarados, etc

 

[Footnote]

No, that's just the point. White Herb counters Intimidate. If you put a White Herb on a special sweeper, then yes, Intimidate can destroy it and your White Herb is wasted. However, if you put it on a primarily physical sweeper, then Intimidate doesn't lower your Attack. Unless you're going to switch out anyway, I'd call that a win.

 

[JimBob]

Basing a Pokemon around a one-shot item is pretty dumb, imo. Also with the fact that everyone else said - intimidate ruins your Pokemon.

Now, sometimes, White Herb could be used well (Cursepassing to Aeroy), but that is because that is meant to end the match since Aeroy can outspeed everything and one-shot most stuff with all that attack.

But, generally, Overheat and Draco Meteor are used with hit-and-run tactics in mind, so Choice Specs is a better item off the bat, and then you have the fact that in works for all moves, plus it works multiple times, and increases the power instead of resetting it to normal power.

Actually, I didn't really want to go into different items to use, I just wanted to say that Draco Meteor is a hit-and-run move anyway, activating it will let your opponent predict your next move fairly easily, and it does the same thing as switching out does, except that now you don't have an item equipped.

Actually, now that I think about it a little, I can see where you're coming from, and why you are defending it, but White Herb just isn't that great.