1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Why is OU metagame so centralized?

Discussion in 'Stark Mountain' started by Xrinix, Oct 21, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Xrinix

    Xrinix

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2008
    Messages:
    52
    I`ve been battling for a long time, and something I`ve noticed is that most of the teams has at least two legnedaries and two pokemon with a total stats of 600 ( for example: Tyranitar, Metagross, Salamence, etc...) , which gives the OU metagame a great centralization, and by consecuense no creativity in most teams, wich are always built like this:

    Lead Pokemon
    Legendary Sweeper
    Legendary Wall
    Metagross/Tyranitar/Salamence/Dragonite
    Metagross/Tyranitar/Salamence/Dragonite
    Random Pokemon

    So maybe the best thing to do, should be to limit the use of legendary pokemon in a team, to one, and why not, also limit pokemon such as Metagross / Tyranitar / Salamence / Dragonite to one, which will give the OU metagame a lot more creativity, and stop the centralization which really affect many of us.

    * This is my personal suggestion, and opinion, so if you wish to do some comments please try not to flame me ... , thanks for your attention, oh and by the way... my main language is spanish, so I´m sorry if I have some grammar mistakes. ^-^*
  2. Bourbon

    Bourbon

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2007
    Messages:
    3,047
    Um, unless you've been under a rock, you should know the standard OU team is Heatran, Zapdos, Scizor, Salamence, Skymin and bulky water.
  3. Tingaling

    Tingaling

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2008
    Messages:
    128
    I second his under a rock-ness. The team you describe is completely off of what the norm is. And seriously, what description is "lead pokemon"? a suicide lead? sleeper lead? bulkygyra lead? dualscreen? the list is endless
  4. ViVi

    ViVi

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2007
    Messages:
    3,824
    Despite the fact that what Skiddle says is pretty much correct..in reply to teh OP, Dragonite doesnt break the top 30 usages in september in either ladder, and I dont know how many times Ive said this, 'Legendary Pokemon' is a in-game term that is completely irrelevant to competetive play, in fact a good number of legends are pretty bad.

    That means that the term "legendary Pokemon' doesn't imply 'top-tier Pokemon' and trying to instill a rule limiting the ammount of legends you can use would be of little use, as, once again, a good number of legends aren't even very good..

    The final nit-pick of your post that I have is 'Lead Pokemon', how is that even a point in your argument? Theres how many different leads that are viable??
  5. petrie911

    petrie911

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Messages:
    859
    An outright ban on all pokemon with 600 or more BST (excepting Slaking and Regigigas for obvious reasons) would have an interesting effect on the game. It would promptly end the suspect testing, as all suspects have 600 or more BST, and get rid of a fair number of OU threats, including Sala, Skymin, and Heatran. Wobb would probably still end up with a ban, but that's for entirely different reasons.

    Not that I necessarily support such a thing, but it would simplify things a bit.
  6. ViVi

    ViVi

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2007
    Messages:
    3,824
    It would simplify things, but it would be stupid. Its something that isnt even worth discussing. Play more UU

    What really needs to be done is have a system implemented that tiers Pokemon based on their actual capabilities, not usage, because that would add alot more Pokemon to the UU tier (Tentacruel..), which would in turn allow everyone to play OU, if they chose, with all its heavy hitters, then have a greater amount of less 'over-whelmingly powerful' Pokemon available to play in UU.
  7. maddog

    maddog is a master debater
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,322
    The main reason that the OU metagame is centralized right now is everybody is still trying out all the changes they got from Platinum. Scizor is a strong threat, but since its new introduction of Bullet Punch people have been putting it way higher than it probably should be. Zapdos getting Heat Wave is nice, and it puts him higher on popularity with people struggling to find counters for it (hint hint CM raikou). They are still trying out all the cool changes Plantium brought, but eventually people will adjust and start finding new threats in the mess. For example, the Rotom forms can fill a huge niche, Tyranitar can take care of Zapdos, Cune and Gyara deal with Scizor effectively, Heatran really is overrated, and Shaymin-S, well...

    Right now the metagame underwent some huge changes. It will take some time for it to settle down, and if that's what your sick of seeing in OU, the work on some new ideas and new strageties. It won't stay like this for too much longer.

    The solution isn't really to start talking about bans or anything, aside from testing Shaymin-S on the Suspect. I reckon that once the analysises are taken care of we can start to make since of it all.
  8. gorm

    gorm
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2006
    Messages:
    1,191
    man im tired of this kinda assertation. huge new threats have been added and changed teambuilding forever, but that doesnt mean the metagame is centralized since its in a highly volatile sstate (i.e. everyone's like DAMN lookit these strong mons! im just gonna throw in 5 that cover the bases well offensively and call it a team)

    "new" stall teams/counter offensive teams are JUST starting to emerge really, let the metagame settle down before making outrageous claims.

    it's really too early to discuss the metagame like it's at equilibrium at this moment imo, there is too much going on
  9. Chileno4Live

    Chileno4Live

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2008
    Messages:
    374
    To be honest i find this metagame good as it is now, especially if Deoxys-E gets banned to Ubers.

    Some people spam the OU/OU tier pokemon, like Salamence and Metagross. They are strong pokemon and used by any1. Despite they are used by any1 means that you can run a counter effectively in your team, so that if you find Salamence/Metagross you can easily defeat it.

    Also, how you think that how are the teams made isn't true. I mean no1 looks if they want a legendary sweeper or something i mean they only find a good sweeper which fits in their team. Same goes for a legendary wall.

    Like ViVi said, Legendary is only an in-game thing, has nothing to do with standard play as the ''legendary'' pokemon can be weaker than a normal pokemon, Garchomp for example. also some legendaries are weak like Regigigas.

    Although i like your idea of changing the metagame, it isn't going to work out. Sorry =/
  10. Thorns

    Thorns

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Messages:
    4,526
    Whilst I appreciate your opinion, I must still state that most of it is incorrect.
  11. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Messages:
    4,675
    Every metagame is centralised, actually. Even if you ban all 600 BST Pokemon, the resulting metagame would still be centralised... maybe even more centralised than it was before.
  12. 1059860

    1059860

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    869
    True that. Also Tyranitar/Hippowdon/Metagross are often used in Sandstorm teams.

    What would happen to a metagame if the following Pokemon are banned?
    * All OU Legendaries (thus not include Shaymin land form, Articuno, Regirock, Regice, Registeel, Regigigas, Mesprit, Entei and Moltres)
    * Tyranitar
    * Metagross
    * Salamence
    * Scizor
    * Uxie (due to semi-similarities to Cresselia)
    * All Ubers.

    It'd be much more diverse, although it may center to Dragonite, Flygon, Bronzong, Rotom-Other Forms, and Kingdra?

    My current team is Zapdos, Rotom-H, Salamence, Shaymin-S, Suicune and Scizor, lol... Just different is Rotom-H in place of Heatran.

    I doubt it. There isn't anything to overpower with. Teams are in generally more tanky, and not many things can completely sweep at least 5/6 on a team like Scizor after 1 SD (say if you killed the counter beforehand) or Salamence.

    I wonder if it's possible to create a ladder where those Pokemon above are banned, and maybe Dragonite too if just all 600 BST are banned, or all Legendary as well if that's a must. Although the list of choices is smaller, the game would most definitely be different... Just a thought.
  13. the pugilist

    the pugilist
    is a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    915
    UU lacks anything with 600 BST yet it is still agruably centralized.
  14. Calciphoce

    Calciphoce

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,713
    completely agreeing with gorm here and that's why i haven't been laddering much. i could make a team one day and the next it would be obsolete. like gorm and others have said, let the meta quiet down a little first. it needs to re-stabilize.
  15. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,533
    Agreed, and most are due to the standardised metagame. Heatran, Zapdos and Scizor are for Skymin. Bulky water and Zapdos are great Scizor counters, and Bulky water is also a good Salamance counter. Heatran works well if swaps in correctly and Salamance.

    I think its absurd to ban legendaries and pokemon just due to their stats. Why ban Articuno when its UU. Scizor is so common and he doesnt have those 600 stats or legendary status. Maybe just Skymin, it lower the centralisation, even Scizor usage will drop as he was a good revenge killer and seed flare absorber.
  16. Kietharr

    Kietharr

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2007
    Messages:
    654
    That's actually similar to what he said, legend, legend, random pokemon, base 600, legend. Bulky water is usually a Suicune, Swampert, or Vaporeon, one of which is also a legend.

    Not that it matters whether a pokemon is legendary or not, but of course he has a point, people will always use the best pokemon available and generally, the legends have high stat totals and strong moves, making them appealing when building a team, especially on shoddy where a perfect IV'd correct nature legend is always available when in some cases (Suicune and other runners in particular) they are virtually impossible to find in game.
  17. Glen ^^

    Glen ^^

    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    434
    lol Garchomp.

    People cried "centralization!!" to ban him, now the game is even worse. Needs some SD Outrage to stop those boring, Platinum generation teams.
  18. Captain Falcon

    Captain Falcon

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2007
    Messages:
    376
    This is why i prefer G/S/C so much. It isn't hyper-offensive, hax-based and teams are a little more varied.
  19. Marisa Kirisame

    Marisa Kirisame

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,597
    How would banning Pokémon decentralize the metagame?

    Banning Pokémon will just allow other Pokemon to come in to replace it and maybe those that would normally have trouble getting around that Pokémon too! I'm sure you all can find an example of this.

    Allowing Garchomp back in wouldn't change anything either, all it would do is give you more Garchomps and less Heatrans then more Scizor and then we're back at square one.
  20. Astamatitos

    Astamatitos

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2007
    Messages:
    272
    DP OU hasn't even made a full circle around itself so it's too early to bother about the metagame.

    Ever since Chomp was banned i've been seeing a lot more innovative teams in the ladder, now if the 5 aforementioned Pokemon are popular at the moment this is a matter to change as it is most probably a fad, people want to try the new platinum additions and create new combos that couldn't be done as succesfully earlier. I myself use none of them in my main team.
  21. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    8,206
    Though to be fair, even before platinum and before we banned garchomp, the standard team on suspect ladder was Heatran, Zapdos, Bronzong/Metagross, Salamence, Celebi, and Bulky Water. >>

    I helped fix your post.

    You know damn well that even without Skymin around Heatran, Zapdos and Scizor would be at the top, Zapdos probably coming in even higher if Skymin were gone. Like I said, suspect already showed signs of converging on heatran and zapdos even before platinum came out. Before Skymin, Celebi was everywhere to help against the enemy bulky water, but of course that was part of what forced teams to all be "offensive tank," with little room for truly offensive teams or even true defensive teams.

    Based on #s alone, Suspect Ladder was more centralized than standard, and the pokemon popular now were already rapidly gaining popularity. Platinum just happened to enhance many of the pokemon that smogoners were already starting to focus on . . .
  22. Kira

    Kira

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2008
    Messages:
    2,023
    So then you want the metagame to once again revolve entirely around Garchomp? At least now it is revolving around a myriad of Pokemon (Skymin, Heatran, Scizor, Zapdos) rather than a single Pokemon.
  23. ViVi

    ViVi

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2007
    Messages:
    3,824
    In my opinion, while the numbers may state otherwise, I really feel like alot more Pokemon were viable without Garchomp, things that rely on Thunderwave (Pory-2, for example) maybe didnt become OU overnight but are alot more usefull.

    Please note that is just a small sample of what I believe is more viable without Garchomp, I dont have time to list everything. I think the reason the suspect ladder ebcame more over centralized was because players were trying to figure out what was going to fit into Garchomps niche of being the end-all sweeper best.
  24. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    3,172
    This topic is pointless because every metagame in every tier in every video game ever made is centralized. How can you have a game without a central point to base your strategy around....

    You say that "OU is too centralized" without actually saying what "too centralized" means, without backing it up with any EVIDENCE, and without even saying if that is a bad thing.

    Besides, UU and Ubers are significantly worse in terms of centralization. UU is completely broken with things like Clefable, Venusaur and Miltank running around, Ubers is just awful. If anything, you should be praising OU for being less centralized in comparison.

    There isnt anything to discuss here. "OU is centralized". Well, no shit.
  25. Black Buddha

    Black Buddha

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,156
    I play UU but I cant call it centralized. Sure there are some top sweepers like Primeape, Toxicroak, Jynx, and walls like Claydol and Steelix, but its not lke every team has one fo those( except for maybe CLaydol). Thats because there are many viable pokemon UU, whereas with all the threats and walls in OU, a lot less pokemon are viable, either because they are outclassed or just too weak.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)