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Wolfpack

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by Furai, Apr 22, 2013.

  1. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    [​IMG]
    Wolfpack

    NO MORE PC--. THIS IS IT FOR REAL.

    Welcome guys to my 2k RMT. Today I am introducing you to one of my most successful teams in Ubers. This team has a very long history actually; I've built it for the Ubers Open in Smogon's Grand Slam tournament. It all started when I thought I needed an Extreme Killer team. I came to realize that it's such a potent threat and that I must take advantage of it. Things roll and I decided that Arceus Ground is much more appealing. It's an underrated threat and it works fantasticly. Checks a number of big Pokemon in Ubers, including Rayquaza, Dialga, and Zekrom, boasts great bulk, and is a great bulky set-up booster.

    I started with a simple Bulky Offensive core of 3 Attacks Latias + Swords Dance Arceus Ground. That Latias can easily punch holes in the opponent's team and weaken or eliminate threats such as the Giratina formes, Skarmory, and Kyogre, leaving the path open for Arceus to sweep. Latias still remains a threat for Arceus however; be it Calm Mind or Swords Dance. Tyranitar immediately jumped up as the premier candidate for removing her. Pursuit or Crunch leaves a huge dent and clears the path for Arceus Ground, and Latias too who shouldn't worry about being hit by a super-effective Dragon Pulse or Draco Meteor which will leave a dent. Stealth Rock support was granted with it as well, which is always great.

    I wanted to experiment with the dual weather concept for a long time. Overloading the pressure on the foe by limiting a counter to two of my Pokemon was an idea I had in mind. I have Tyranitar to remove Latias that troubles Ground Arceus; this is really a no-brainer if I want to use dual weather, and so was Kyogre added in immediately. With two weather types I keep Sun teams at bay and keep a close eye on both rain and sand teams by using a different Pokemon each time. Arceus loves Spikes support and almost everyone hated Spikes or Toxic Spikes, so Forretress was added in immediately. I was somewhat weak to Darkrai and Rayquaza, so I slapped in Terrakion. The team wasn't bad, but it wasn't as good as I wanted it to be. The team had MANY variations (again we're talking about a period of over half a year), but in the end I reached this build which I feel the most comfortable the most.

    I believe the team can improve more, but I'm very satisfied with it overall. If played correctly, boy this team is a lot of fun. Fun comes with a cost, however, as this team is quite difficult to play with. Dual weather can be a double edged sword as it hits two of my glue Pokemon—Giratina-O and Palkia—and this requires a very careful play. Palkia is probably the most valuable Pokemon in the team, being able to cover Darkrai, Rayquaza, Kyogre, Deoxys-A, unboosted or weakened Mewtwo, and all those fast threats. Not being able to take repeated hits makes it extremely hard for Palkia to do its job reliably, but with some smart plays, Wolfpack works like a charm.

    I didn't really achieve a lot with the team since I didn't ladder a lot with it until recently, and I only used it in the Uber Open, which I got kicked out round one after losing to a freeze on my dear kacaw, and in Smogon's Premier League. This team is responsible to one of my wins during my 6 week run for The Wifi Wolfpack, and I promised them that I would RMT this team and dedicate it to them. You guys rock; I love you.

    Meet the Members
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    Fuk BW.

    In-depth

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    Tyranitar (M) @ Chople Berry
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 64 Atk / 192 SDef
    Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Pursuit
    - Crunch
    - Fire Blast

    • General Information

      Tyranitar is my usual lead. Get up Stealth Rock early, and mess up other leads. It’s a brilliant anti-lead as well; Deoxys-S is limited to one hazard (or two if I need my Stealth Rock), Dialga can’t prevent me from getting up SR (Aura Sphere does ~60%), and Forretress gets smacked by Fire Blast. Tyranitar is also my go-to Pokemon to tank specific special hits, such as Kyogre’s Ice Beam or Thunder, Palkia’s Thunder or Spacial Rend, etc. It is EVed to tank Draco Meteor + Grass Knot from Latios, and OHKO it with Crunch after sandstorm damage. Tyranitar serves a key role of beating choiced Kyogres in conjuction with Kyogre and Giratina-O, by locking it to a move Tyranitar can tank easily, and then Pursuit Kyogre away. Tyranitar is quite a boss, and deserves more usage actually.

      Crunch and Pursuit are STAB moves and they put Lati@s and Giratina-O checked. If they decide to stay in, just Crunch the next turn. Giratina-O may be slightly more problematic for Tyranitar with Will-O-Wisp and Earthquake, but don’t forget Arceus is here too. Stealth Rock is obviously mandatory, and Fire Blast roasts annoyances such as Forretress, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory.

    • Considered Changes

      • Low Kick > Fire Blast / Crunch. By doing so you can reliably beat Dialga leads and hit Heatran for a good damage. Yet, I find the other two much more useful to hit Forretress, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory, and having a consistent damage versus the likes of Ho-oh and Kyogre as it switches in.

    ---​

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    Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Pain Split
    - Toxic

    • General Information

      I just love Forretress. It can fulfill many roles so easily: Extreme Killer counter, Spinner, and Spiker. Forretress is such a team player. With Toxic and Pain Split and the physically defensive EVs, Forretress can reliably take on non-Overheat Arceus. If using Lum Berry, it will be tougher, but still managable, to get past Arceus. It either uses Swords Dance again and gets poisoned, or attacks and gets phazed away by Giratina-O. Don’t weaken Forretress if you see an Arceus on the opponent’s team until you see what Arceus is it. While I do miss being able to tank Spacial Rends and Ice Beams, using a physically defensive spread is a must, as Forretress is here to patch up many problems.

      The moveset is quite simple; Toxic + Pain Split check Extreme Killer and many other threats (Groudon lacking a Fire-type move too!), Spikes is a good way to easen a sweep and weaken the foe, and Rapid Spin gets rid of their hazards.

    • Considered Changes

      • None, actually. Forretress is really adorable.

    ---​

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    Kyogre @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 248 HP / 184 Def / 76 SDef
    IVs: 0 Atk
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Calm Mind
    - Scald

    • General Information

      The BOSS. Kyogre right here is such a key Pokemon for the team. It can fulfill many roles, including status absorber, CM Arceus counter, Water- and Ice- resist, Kyurem-W check, and the list goes on. Using sand and rain keep sun teams checked easily with the consistent weather change. Kyogre is my go-to member when I see Ghost Arceus or Fight Arceus, for example. I EV’ed it so it can comfortably switch into 1 layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock and still take a neutral Judgment like a boss. This set is pretty much straightforward, but it gets the job done, and done well.

      Rest and Sleep Talk provide recovery and a viable Dark Void switch-in, spreading burns with Scald is always great, and Calm Mind helps me keep some pressure on Stall teams. Roar is missed, but Calm Mind is needed to get past Chansey. Plus, Giratina-O is here for that!

    • Considered Changes

      • Roar > Calm Mind. Beats Darkrai much more easily and doesn't become a huge Calm Mind set-up fodder. It's really up to the user honestly, as Giratina-O should handle Stall teams just fine, but I like the extra insurance to beat those bastards.

    ---​

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    Giratina-O @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 168 SDef / 8 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Dragon Tail
    - Roar

    • General Information

      Say hello to one of the biggest annoyances you will ever face. It has actually won me a game once. It’s bulky enough to tank a couple of hits, it’s faster than most support Pokemon, and it’s a pain to take down. Giratina-O has a key role in being a glue of the team. It’s meant to check on Mono-attacker Kyogre, Shaymin-S, Arceus-Normal, Arceus-Steel, and Ho-Oh. I EVed it so Leftovers Ho-Oh won’t 2HKO with Brave Bird after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage. It’s not a hard counter for said threats, but it can phaze them with ease, racking up more hazard damage and resetting their boosts. With RestTalk and dual phaze, Giratina can bypass the negative priority with Sleep Talk without wasting any PP. 2/3rds to phaze keeps the foe under a lot of pressure. It’s really a boss set and it spinblocks really well; Forretress’s Toxic is nullified by Rest and its Payback is barely a 3HKO, 60+ +0 Excadrill’s Earthquake is a 3HKO, and Tentacruel can’t touch this.

    • Considered Changes

      • Will-O-Wisp Attacker over this set. I used it before, and while it covers Mewtwo nicely and grants me priority, Giratina-O was wearing down too fast. I needed something to glue certain Pokemon, namely Ho-oh, Shaymin-S, and RestTalk Calm Mind Kyogre, so recovery was needed.

    ---​

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    Palkia @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    IVs: 0 Atk
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Spacial Rend
    - Fire Blast
    - Thunder

    • General Information

      Palkia is my second glue, I suppose. It keeps Kyogre, Rayquaza, Darkrai, Deoxys-A, Shaymin-S, etc, checked. It’s not an ideal Choice Scarf user these days, but Palkia still works extremely well. When battling with this team, don’t let Palkia take unneeded damage. That means, that if you see a Kyogre on the foe’s team, don’t lead with Tyranitar, as Palkia doesn’t like the additional damage. Palkia has many things to cover, so play carefully with it. It’s not as powerful as Lustrous Orb, and can’t switch moves unfortunately, but Choice Scarf Palkia is just what this team needs. Outpacing Genesect is an underrated quality Palkia has; very often I use Palkia to weaken or defeat opposing Genesect.

      Spacial Rend, Fire Blast, and Thunder are all mandatory for Palkia’s phenomenal coverage. Surf is better than Draco Meteor because locking yourself to a -2 move to take out Darkrai is horrible. Rain-boosted Surf hits harder too!

    • Considered Changes

      • I guess you can use Latias here to cover most Kyogre formes better, but you're Genesect bait and you no longer beat Rayquaza and Darkrai. Genesect can be used over Forretress (that was one of the variations of the team), but I find Spikes and Rapid Spin way too useful to give up on.
      • Outrage > Surf to hit Mewtwo harder, but I find Surf a lot more useful.

    ---​

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    Arceus-Ground @ Earth Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    IVs: 0 Atk
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Recover
    - Judgment
    - Ice Beam

    • General Information

      There it is, the star of the show. Ground Arceus is hella underrated. Ground- / Ice- coverage is really legit, combine that with Arceus’s great bulk and sheer power after a single boost, you’ve got yourself a deadly threat. Arceus keeps Dialga and Zekrom at bay, and if needed, Salamence, Rayquaza, and Groudon are beaten as well. I put the leftover 4 EVs in SpD to give Genesect an Attack boost, rather than a boosted Ice Beam. Don’t hesitate to show Arceus if needed; it would be better if not though. They will just think it’s Extreme Killer or Steel Arceus and throw their counters away, then you surprise them with this beast. The set itself is pretty straightforward. Arceus serves as a late-game sweeper and an overall rescue Pokemon, that's why I love it so much.

    • Considered Changes

      • Swords Dance set > Calm Mind set. I didn't really experiment Swords Dance Arceus with this version, but it should do just fine. While it beats Sun teams and Ho-oh much more easily, do note you're slightly weaker to Gliscor, Rayquaza, Salamence, and Garchomp.

    ---​

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    Threats

    If you steal it and play with this team around, do note that you need to play better than what you usually do. The team isn't very flexible and each Pokemon has its role, and it must fulfill it well in order to work correctly. Lack of priority is a problem that I’d love to solve, but I just can’t fit it in.

    So yeah, that's my team. I hope you guys enjoyed reading it. Rate, hate, steal, luvdisc, do whatever. Latter is preferred :>. Shoutouts to my buddies, you know who you are. :) That should be it!​

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    PK Gaming likes this.
  2. TheMantyke

    TheMantyke DISRESPECT YOUR SUPERIORS
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    turbo noob furry.

    Premier Ball + Pursuit Tyranitar is illegal since Pursuit is an egg move.

    You won with hacked pokemon, turn in your trophy now ;xxx
    Joeyboy likes this.
  3. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    shit you got me
  4. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !

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    Hi there,

    As you said, the lack of priority is killing you, a swift change to Gira-o can help a lot, from the restalk one to SubDragon Tail. With this, you can still force switch, pick off weakened threat, and check what you need to. The lack of recovery move hurt but I think it's better this way.

    Also, I don't understand why Rayquaza isnt in your threats list. He, alone, can completely shut down your defensive core and noone can come in without dying. Your only answer is prediction (even Arceus is Koed by DM+ES) and SR, since Deo-A/Mewtwo are mentionned, Ray deserve it too.

    Good team overrall, glad to finally see someone using a manly Arceus.
  5. puregenius

    puregenius

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    hey dude, this reminds me of my triple weather except better lol

    based off your threat list, i would definitely recommend a change of your current gira o set to a wow atker set with wow/dragon tail/shadow sneak/earthquake
    alternatively you could use outrage over wow for ho oh if he becomes a problem
    you could try a sub shuffler, but the sand really makes this sub-optimal

    he helps revenge a myriad of options most importantly deo a and mewtwo
    deo a is especially easy to take down as you can bait a superpower and then ko with shadow sneak since sand takes sashes down
    revenging mewtwo at around 60% is really nice for your team

    against fire blast grasseus, you really are hard pressed, but i guess if you can set groundceus up fast enough and get enough residual damage off on it through sand and hazards, you should be able to play around

    awesome team man good luck
  6. Donkey

    Donkey

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    I would use chople berry on ttar to give you a back up check to Darkrai and Arceus-Ghost

    edit: thanks for the shoutout
  7. Lohgock

    Lohgock

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    Always wanted to build a team around CM Groundceus but don't have any teambuilding skills in Uber lol. However, wouldn't have been as cool as your team is anyway. Not much to say, you might want to try out Chople Berry on Tyranitar so Mewtu isn't much of a threat anymore, but that's basicly all I can suggest.

    Cool team man <3

    e: Ghosted ._.
  8. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Yeah I agree that Chople Berry on Tyranitar and Sub + Dragon Tail Giratina-O would help a lot with the team's current weaknesses. Besides, you don't want to have too many Rest users, as the fifth generation sleep mechanics could easily turn that into a huge liability if you don't manage to Rapid Spin.

    Good luck.

    :)
  9. kakuna

    kakuna

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    Hey so SubCM ghostceus will really screw you over because it beats forretress, as well as SubSD extremekiller (it exists), and darkrai. Using roar over calm mind on your kyogre should remedy this at least for the most part. In combination with spikes and a reliable spinblocker phazing is always a solid choice. I think that using a giratina-o without rest and sleep talk could also benefit you. I would use dragon tail/will-o-wisp/earthquake/shadow sneak with max attack and defense but the actual set is more up to you and your preferences. Shadow sneak could be incredibly useful revenging frail psychic types and other assorted threats. Will-o-wisp makes ferrothorn and lugia crippled (making palkia more potent) and nails grasseus. Shadow sneak is pretty neccesary also because grass knot latios will steamroll your whole team, as well as lustrous orb palkia. Palkia hits everything on your team for super effective damage. I feel like swords dance arceus ground would fit the team better but I haven't tried it out, so that isn't my call.
  10. JKOP

    JKOP

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    A few changes is required imo.

    Hello Furai.

    That is a good team you have got there. But then I see a few threats:

    1)Kingdra:- Looking at your team only Forretress can avoid a OHKO after it dragon dances. It can set up a DD on your Kyogre, Surf/Fire-Blast locked Palkia or even against your Ground-Arceus.The whole team is weak to kingdra.

    2)Rayquaza:- I agree with Go10. After a SD boost your team is destroyed. Only Ground-Arceus can do anything against it (yet Espeed after a SD will take 53.37 - 62.83%).

    3)Latios:- Those variants with Grass Knot can at least 2HKO your whole team. Even though T-tar can OHKO it with crunch(or pursuit if it tries to switch) it fails to switch into a Grass Knot. If it is already weakened, Latios gets your team wrecked.

    4)Ghost-Arceus:- It can freely set up a CM on your Kyogre or Palkia(provided it is not using Surf). And after a CM all of your pokes would be at least 2HKOed.


    I agree with Donkey's proposal of giving Chople berry to T-tar. It can be helpful against Mewtwo and Deo-A too.

    I like the idea of Kakuna, giving roar to Kyogre, as it can phaze Ghost-Arceus which tries to set-up on it( also other set-up sweepers).

    I think you should go for SD Rayquaza instead of Palkia ( but this makes Ghost-Arceus more threatening :/). SD Ray can be useful against the SS sweepers and Lati@s. Ray maybe SR weak, yet it could help you mitigate some of your team's weaknesses.

    Good Luck. :)
  11. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Thanks for the rates and luvdiscs guys!

    My problem with attacker Giratina-O is the lack of recovery. SS damage will eat it alive. I have used it in the past, and in fact the change of Giratina's set was the last one I made. Will-O-Wisp/Shadow Sneak patches up a lot, but it's a change I'll have to re-test.

    Rayquaza is a threat to every team. Insane coverage, insane power, versatility; there are no counters to that. However, I don't think I can do anything better than Groundceus and Scarf Palkia. I will do my best to limit its boosts however, so if a sacrifice is needed I'll take it. If it tries to setup on Forretress, I'll Toxic it. If it tries to setup on Giratina-O, I'll Dragon Tail it. I'll do anything it takes to stop it from the boost. Palkia locked to Fire Blast or something is setup bait, so I'll just switch in Arceus and tank the hit.

    Chople Berry Tyranitar is the only change at this moment that I'm taking without testing. I sure as hell will miss the recovery, but Chople Berry keeps said enemies at check. Thanks Donkey and Lohgock!

    kokoloko you're trash.

    Subsitute Arceus are a threat because of their surprise factor and I think that applies to every team. However, that means that they lack recovery, so sandstorm damage and hazard damage will hit them up pretty fast. SubCM Ghostceus doesn't get past Kyogre ever, lol. Arceus with ExtremeSpeed and Earthquake gets hard countered by Giratina-O, ExtremeSpeed and Shadow Claw gets delayed a bit by Tyranitar, and then phazed by Giratina-O if it's still +2. Earthquake and Shadow Claw has no priority so Arceus or Palkia can finish it off. Roar Kyogre is indeed very tempting, but like the Giratina-O change, I'll have to test it.

    Kingdra isn't a threat because I have Tyranitar. At +1 it is outsped by Palkia and dies to Spacial Rend. Roar Kyogre would definitely patch this up to the maximum, but I wouldn't let Kingdra get away with it normally. If it's locked to Outrage it's wrecked by Forretress. Latios is in the same case. I'm not gonna let it get a free hit obviously. If you do that you really need to study the game. However, much like Rayquaza, if a sacrifice is needed to safely remove it, I'll go for it. Nukes are scary.

    SD Rayquaza gets a big fat no because then Kyogre wrecks me. Rayquaza doesn't beat Lati@s either.

    Thanks for the rates guys! Keep 'em coming. :)
  12. polop

    polop
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    This team is actually weak to CM Electric Arceus (I know its never used so this shouldn't be taken very seriously at all), with Focus Blast it runs through Tyranitar and after a Calm Mind it should be able to take on Palkia. Ground Arceus can stop it to an extent but if it gets a head start in the CM war it'll win due to the fact Ice Beam 2HKOes. This isn't that big of a threat at all though, if you manage to weaken it even a little bit it'll falter since most variants don't use Recover (lol it resists nothing). Sub Seed Skymin might also be a little annoying to face, the only thing that can REALLY stop it is Giratina-O and Palkia can revenge it but Leech Seed + Air Slash will take a massive chunk out of Giratina-O's HP, TTar can't even revenge due to lack of Stone Edge and Seed Flare hurts, a LOT.

    I'm not sure how Mewtwo is a threat since Tyranitar check mates it with +1 Aura Sphere (unless GK Mewtwo but lol who runs that) not KOing and in return it gets PURSUITED / Crunched. This team is really one of the most flawless ones I've seen. The only thing I can imagine that could possibly be troublesome really is Electric Arceus, and as I mentioned earlier its not that big. If Excadrill is problematic, increasing Defense investment on Giratina-O will fix it, but really it can tank +2 Life Orb Iron Head and phaze out so its not all that bad, but realize doing that makes Skymin a slightly bigger issue. Forreteress isn't OHKOed by Fire Blast from Grass Arc in rain, and lol, Chople Berry TTar is the closest thing to a full stop to Deo-A.

    The only thing I can really recommend is Stone Edge > Crunch on TTar, lets it solidly check Ho-Oh, and hey, you can slay Skymin a whole lot easier now :D. Its not that big though, but it might help a little, and little is better then no help (if you do say no due to the fact Stone Edge never hits though I completely understand 0_0).

    Regardless, this team is excellent :D, you did a fantastic job of making a dual weather team, and its greatness is illustrated on how well it did in the Wolf Pack. Congratz and good luck on the team Furai :P.
  13. syrim

    syrim 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1

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    This team doesn't really have a reliable check to ho-oh, or a way to switch in, and you give it tons of free turns.

    176+ Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 186 Def Kyogre: 184-217 (45.54 - 53.71%) -- 1.95% chance to 2HKO

    176+ Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Giratina-O: 171-202 (33.99 - 40.15%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    With sr up both of these are likely to fall, and with gira-o you're relying on a 1/3 chance to beat it once it subs up and you're forced to rest (the first turn you come in to a brave bird behind a sub if they have a spinner that makes you keep gira-o healthy which is almost certain with ho-oh) since ho-oh will likely be behind a sub. You're not going to outspeed it with either check, and your decision to run cm lessens your chances even more with kyogre, even though it has to pretty much die to ho-oh anyways, just to break the sub. T-tar having your sr can make this problem more pronounced, as against standard sun leads like genesect and Groudon you have to basically sac your special wall turn 1 to get that early sr up.

    MixQuaza tears you apart in a similar manner, since the combo of draco meteor and espeed kos Arceus-Ground pretty reliably, but what would scare me a lot more when using your core is Lustrous Palkia.

    You can't come into a non choiced palkia reliably at all, and it has a lot of room to come in and do some work on stuff like ttar, forry, kyogre, gira-o, and even ground arceus if you havent gotten boosts up, it can even force you to lose a lot of defensive core members on palkia locked into 2/4 of its moves. Palkia also flourishes in either weather you give it.

    252 SpA Palkia Thunder vs. 4 HP / 84+ SpD Kyogre: 186-220 (54.38 - 64.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Surf vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 210-248 (51.98 - 61.38%) -- 95.31% chance to 2HKO

    Everything else is obviously beaten straight up, bar a groundceus who is already boosted, but you're going to take so much damage from that you'll lose to pretty much anything that outspeeds you after.

    Less threatening is kingdra, but if your kyogre takes just a little bit of passive damage, you're going to be sweating versus it, as it directly threatens your other manner of weather control, and you have to switch in a rain setter to absorb a blow, as kyogre can take a hit once, but you have to rest next turn.

    Excadrill is a threat as you said, but it's the iron head version in particular that can destroy your core, LO iron head really picks apart your only EQ immunity, and you can't switch kyogre into it at all, so it will likely have sand for the majority of the match.

    I believe the simplest fix to this is to stop walking the line with your kyogre set and evs, potentially swap your gira-o set to something a bit more offensive, and move your ground arceus to a full supporting role with toxic over calm mind.

    You can do this in a few different ways, going max defense kyogre with to have a much better way to check ho-oh, while letting toxic on groundceus and scarf palkia take up the (not much more) slack against the other calm mind forms.

    You could also go for a full specially defensive build on kyogre, and run giratina-a over giratina-o. You have forretress and your ttar's moveset to help make sure the spikes weakness doesnt become too pronounced, and this change helps you check ho-oh, as well as all cm arceus forms much more efficently. It also lets you roar around for hazard damage much longer, and gives you a better physical back bone.

    With your current team you have a hard time actually killing ho-oh, let alone switching in, so i would still keep toxic on the groundceus if you made either of these changes to at least add one more way to long term plan beat it, and if its toxicd by either groundceus or forry ( both ho-oh bait) gira-a beats it in its sleep, literally.

    SpD kyogre also much alleviates your palkia weakness, as it can phaze it even through thunder, and rack up hazard damage much more safely.
  14. Exbo

    Exbo

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    Since you are not an offensive spinblocker, but a phazing one, why not use
    Giratina-A @ Leftovers? Bulkier, with some recovery in the form of leftovers.
    (Maybe you want to outspeed other bulky Giratinas, hence the 8 Spd?)

    Or even a Giratina-O with Sub/Dtail/Will-o/(phaze/filler)

    Sorry to make such a short and lame post.
  15. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Thanks for the rate syrim and Exbo.

    The Giratina/SpD Ogre/Toxic Groundceus is a variant of the team that I like actually. I should obviously test it when I have the time, and be sure I will, but those are changes that still maintain the team's synergy and such. Only thing that troubles me is the lack of a Ground- resist with that build, but I suppose Giratina's bulk compensates for that.
  16. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    The first thing that struck me when I looked at this team is your lack of ways to handle Lustrous Orb Palkia. That thing is a bigger threat to your team than Ho-Oh, Mewtwo, and Excadrill combined: it 2HKOes everything and is only outsped by Scarf Palkia, who is easy to take advantage of and only likes coming in on Surf, and Ground Arceus, who dies to Surf and can't OHKO. You have no really good switch-ins to it at all.

    The quickest fix imo would be to change Arceus-Ground to Arceus-Grass. Arceus-Grass in the rain walls Palkia forever and it still beats offensive Dialga and Zekrom. It also counters Excadrill and Groudon even harder. The only downside is that its Forretress bait unless you run Fire Blast, but it's your call on what set you want to run. I think a CM set would be pretty cool as that set screws up a lot of rain teams and beats CMOgre, though you can play with it as you wish.

    Arceus-Grass also counters Kyogre and gives you a Ground-resist, meaning you can try Giratina-A > Gira-O to better check Ho-Oh without so much worry, and can perhaps look into using a scarfer other than Palkia if you ever decide Palkia isn't working out.

    Great team!
  17. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
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    full def gira-o with some speed creep
    spdef kyogre with roar
    arc grass with fire blast or cm

    eh sun looks worrisome with having to deal with groudon which prevents you from setting up sr or spikes then having to deal with ho-oh blasting you in the face. and i'm not saying it beats you just that well played sun vs this team will be an absolutely bitch.

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