XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]

[Baharoth]

Quagsire is "good" because its ability allows it to stop set up sweepers, Haze is good because it stops BP. And Quagsire takes up one of your 6 teamslots, Haze just one of 24 move slots and its not like Quagsire is missing EQ all that much, it can beat everything it needs to beat with Scald and Toxic, EQ is more for convienience than anything else. Even if it is just for BP the cost here is so small it hardly matters.

 

[Clone]

No, not really.

Quagsire wants Recover / Scald / EQ / Toxic for his four move slots. Replacing one with Haze lowers his effectiveness significantly when it comes to facing any other non BP play style. Saying that EQ isn't necessary is wrong because it's what allows him to wear down Xard, Steel types, and anything else that's weak to it.

And honestly, 24 moveslots per team doesn't mean anything. When a Pokémon has 4 MSS, you can't simply say that 'oh, it's just one moveslot. You still have 23 others.' Because when a poke one effectiveness is lowered from having to run an obscure move that serves only one purpose against one playstyle, it limits that pokemons and that teams effectiveness.

 

[Baharoth]

Charizard falls to toxic, no need for EQ here and for steeltypes like Scizor and Bisharp Scald is sufficient to deal with them, it does less damage than EQ but it has the burn chance which compensates for that especially since most of the things Quag walls are physical so burn is invaluable here. EQ might kill some things faster but it isnt needed to kill anything, thats why i said its for convienience. Feel free to name something that can only be beaten with EQ, i dare say there is nothing.

If a pokemon has 4mss and is the only mon in the team that can get that move it might be an issue, but thats not the case here. Quag isnt losing anything relevant by running haze and stall also has Amoonguss with Clear Smog as an alternative.

 

[Rafael J. Feliciano]

Every balanced team should have some form of offensive power, thats what differentiates them from stall in the first place. And even if we say it doesnt, it would need some kind of wallbreaker like sub whisp Gengar instead, otherwise BP isnt going to be its only problem, stall will be just as bad.

And yes stall has to use stuff like Haze if it wants to have a chance but i realy dont think that gimmick is the right word here. If a set or move allows you to deal with a common threat then thats not a gimmick, especially not if its the best option to beat that threat. Stall teams have to adapt all the time to the threats that are used, if a certain threat becomes popular, stall has to adapt to deal with it. So if BP is a popular threat to stall then its only fitting if stall has to adapt to that by using Haze or what ever else works for them. That whole post of yours shows perfectly how incredibly biased most people here are when it comes to BP. If a poke becomes popular on stall because it deals with a common threat like Charizard thats totaly fine, even if that poke is basicly a must on stall because of that, but dedicating a single move slot to deal with BP thats overcentralizing the meta and totaly gimmicky. Imo there are 2 different measures applied here.

To me there is no difference between BP and any other Pokemon/set or whatever threat that becomes popular on the ladder and therefor must be prepared for. When building a team i simply have to think of a way to deal with BP in addition to all the other threats.

What you are neglecting to mention in your assessment of Stall's need for adaptability is the pool of mons that are viable AND have access to stat resetting moves like Haze. Does this mean that its obligatory for Stall to run Unaware Haze Quagsire or Clear Smog Amoongus? When a certain team that is so match dependent arises, stating that we need to account for it is obvious. However, when the tools for dealing with it, especially when trying to build a particular team are few and far between, then I think it goes without saying that something needs to be done about it.

And PLEASE don't bombard the page with the list of viable checks to BP. They have been covered Ad Nauseam and still doesn't address the inherent problem that some mons just aren't prudent with regards to the compatibility and synergy of the team in question; we ARE NOT seeing Prankster Haze Murkrow OR Shedninja in the OU Tier so stop mentioning them... The fact that we actually mentioned their names is an affront to the concept of competitive battling.

In the end, we are trying to determine if the current environment is healthy and conducive for the growth of the meta. I'm not the only one who feels that the meta has waned over the past couple of months because of crap like BP (and Prankster Swag before that) that make it torpid with regards to laddering.

If this assessment is being made by some people, then its only a matter of time before something needs to be changed.

 

[Baharoth]

What you are neglecting to mention in your assessment of Stall's need for adaptability is the pool of mons that are viable AND have access to stat resetting moves like Haze. Does this mean that its obligatory for Stall to run Unaware Haze Quagsire or Clear Smog Amoongus? When a certain team that is so match dependent arises, stating that we need to account for it is obvious. However, when the tools for dealing with it, especially when trying to build a particular team are few and far between, then I think it goes without saying that something needs to be done about it.

I would agree if stall had to run stuff like Murkrow etc to deal with it as those mons arent viable otherwise. But thats not the case. Quagsire and Amoonguss are staples on stall teams anyway as they check/counter a long list of other things aside from BP and it only requires a minimal change of their move set to adapt for that job without hurting their ability to do their other jobs much (id even say not at all but thats not the issue). And stall is the archetype facing the biggest problems against BP and the amount of preparation they have to take is still fairly small.

 

[Bizdis]

Every balanced team should have some form of offensive power, thats what differentiates them from stall in the first place. And even if we say it doesnt, it would need some kind of wallbreaker like sub whisp Gengar instead, otherwise BP isnt going to be its only problem, stall will be just as bad.

I feel like I should probably add here that utility Gengar with Sub, Wisp, Taunt, and Shadow Ball was one of the pokemon I was using to try to beat Baton Pass, and I found that the BP player could easily bring the match down to 50/50s, so it wasn't particularly solid at all. As I mentioned previously, the Baton Pass players who I faced on the ladder tended to choke quite often, but as a player gets more and more practiced with it, they can even win against so-called BP "counters" due to them having lots of experience with that specific situation. Alternatively, as you saw with dEnIsSsS changing Mr Mime to Zapdos so that BP could beat Talonflame and Mega Pinsir, a new pokemon can be added to BP to beat Gengar if it becomes too much of a threat.

 

[Ender Wiggin]

I feel like I should probably add here that utility Gengar with Sub, Wisp, Taunt, and Shadow Ball was one of the pokemon I was using to try to beat Baton Pass, and I found that the BP player could easily bring the match down to 50/50s, so it wasn't particularly solid at all. As I mentioned previously, the Baton Pass players who I faced on the ladder tended to choke quite often, but as a player gets more and more practiced with it, they can even win against so-called BP "counters" due to them having lots of experience with that specific situation. Alternatively, as you saw with dEnIsSsS changing Mr Mime to Zapdos so that BP could beat Talonflame and Mega Pinsir, a new pokemon can be added to BP to beat Gengar if it becomes too much of a threat.

You can beat a team 50/50 with one pokemon and it's not a solid check? It's a team you're going against not another pokemon. Being able to go 1v6 and have a 50/50 chance is quite nice.

 

[Albacore]

You can beat a team 50/50 with one pokemon and it's not a solid check? It's a team you're going against not another pokemon. Being able to go 1v6 and have a 50/50 chance is quite nice.

Not really, since the rest of your team can't actually touch the team at all. If you lead with your BP counter and that counter fails, you have basically lost the match, since the opponent will almost certainly have enough boosts to sweep the rest of your team from there, regardless of whether or not you have another BP counter. That's the thing with BP teams, if your dedicated counter doesn't work (which is conceivable since its success basically depends on a series of 50/50s most of the time), then you've effectively lost and cannot beat the team anymore, which isn't he case for any other playstyle (for example, you can still beat Stall even after having lost your stallbreaker).

 

[Baharoth]

Basicly every BP "counter" aims to prevent them from getting those boosts so even if you lose your counter, they shouldnt have many boosts and/or are on low HP where you can probably finish of one of the main components via priority. Ofc if you lose your counter in turn 3 without him doing anything then yes you will lose, but you know what? In that case you deserve that loss. Its the same if you lose your Chari X check and get swept by it. And honestly unless you make some realy bad missplays you should have done massive damage to the BP team before they manage to kill your counter so much that the rest of your team can clear up the leftovers.

 

[alexwolf]

Every balanced team should have some form of offensive power, thats what differentiates them from stall in the first place. And even if we say it doesnt, it would need some kind of wallbreaker like sub whisp Gengar instead, otherwise BP isnt going to be its only problem, stall will be just as bad.

And yes stall has to use stuff like Haze if it wants to have a chance but i realy dont think that gimmick is the right word here. If a set or move allows you to deal with a common threat then thats not a gimmick, especially not if its the best option to beat that threat. Stall teams have to adapt all the time to the threats that are used, if a certain threat becomes popular, stall has to adapt to deal with it. So if BP is a popular threat to stall then its only fitting if stall has to adapt to that by using Haze or what ever else works for them. That whole post of yours shows perfectly how incredibly biased most people here are when it comes to BP. If a poke becomes popular on stall because it deals with a common threat like Charizard thats totaly fine, even if that poke is basicly a must on stall because of that, but dedicating a single move slot to deal with BP thats overcentralizing the meta and totaly gimmicky. Imo there are 2 different measures applied here.

To me there is no difference between BP and any other Pokemon/set or whatever threat that becomes popular on the ladder and therefor must be prepared for. When building a team i simply have to think of a way to deal with BP in addition to all the other threats.

Not all balanced teams have the kind of offensive presence that threatens Baton Pass teams, that's the point, and it's absurd to force every balanced team to carry checks to Baton Pass or lose, especially considering how those checks sometimes are not the optimal options for some balanced teams and are only useful for beating Baton Pass.

Gimmick is an element that is useful for beating one thing and one thing only. In the case of Baton Pass teams you can call them ''one thing'' because it's the same exact team, while you can't put in the same category all the set up sweepers as they can fit in various different kinds of teams and many of them fill different roles on a team. This means that Quagsire is doing many things for stall teams, and thus is not a gimmick. It's not logical at all to expect Quagsire to run Haze if this makes its performance worse against every other playstyle. And where did you see the different measures? Stall teams don't use gimmicks because they have no room for them. Quagsire is not a gimmick and has multiple uses as it can counter many top tier threats. And trust me, if a Pokemon was used on stall teams and was only useful for dealing with one threat and outclassed in every other role, then i would think that the Pokemon that necessitates the use of this gimmick option would deserve to be suspected too.

And that's not even all, as with Baton Pass teams there is the factor ''carry a check or always lose'', which doesn't apply to any other kind of threat / team and you can't ignore. Almost every offensive Pokemon can be dealt even with no checks to it, as long as you make sure it doesn't have a lot of room to switch in, carry priority, and make sure that most of your Pokemon can take at least one hit from it and do something meaningful back, but this is not the case with Baton Pass teams.

I would agree if stall had to run stuff like Murkrow etc to deal with it as those mons arent viable otherwise. But thats not the case. Quagsire and Amoonguss are staples on stall teams anyway as they check/counter a long list of other things aside from BP and it only requires a minimal change of their move set to adapt for that job without hurting their ability to do their other jobs much (id even say not at all but thats not the issue). And stall is the archetype facing the biggest problems against BP and the amount of preparation they have to take is still fairly small.

Amoonguss does nothing against Baton Pass teams as Clear Smog can't hit through Subs.

 

[Baharoth]

Gimmicks are things you use for the fun of using them and for no other reason... but i guess thats fighting over semantics so i guess its agree to disagree. I ve made my points clear so nothing more to add from my side.

 

[Karxrida]

Gimmicks are things you use for the fun of using them and for no other reason... but i guess thats fighting over semantics so i guess its agree to disagree. I ve made my points clear so nothing more to add from my side.

The definition is set, just like check and counter. So you're agreeing to ignore facts now?

 

[Baharoth]

The definition is set, just like check and counter. So you're agreeing to ignore facts now?

If thats the case then go and find a source that uses Alexwolfs definition to prove your "facts". Doubt you will find one. In the dictionary on the main page there is nothing. and a short google search only brought this up. https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue6/gimmicks which is yet another definition. And even if we use alexwolfs definition, saying BP is one thing while physical sweepers are all different things (how come they are all checked by the same pokemon then?) is just semantics. One is a team category, the other a pokemon category. That level of discussion is beyond retarded honestly.


/edit the fact that he is a mod here doesnt mean he has more experience than me, and even if he played more games than me it doesnt mean he is always right, especially not in a case like this where its about a term that obviously has no clear definition. So yes i am questioning him, i am not the kind of person that believes everything some random guy on the internet tells me.

 

[Karxrida]

If thats the case then go and find a source that uses Alexwolfs definition to prove your "facts". Doubt you will find one. In the dictionary on the main page there is nothing. and a short google search only brought this up. https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue6/gimmicks which is yet another definition. And even if we use alexwolfs definition, saying BP is one thing while physical sweepers are all different things (how come they are all checked by the same pokemon then?) is just semantics. One is a team category, the other a pokemon category. That level of discussion is beyond retarded honestly.

So you're questioning a mod who clearly has more experience than you? I'm pretty sure I don't need a source when he is the source.
BP is literally just one copypasted team, while Hyper Offense, Balance, and even Stall have multiple variants.
There is no such thing as a Pokémon that checks every sweeper in the game. If there was one it'd either be broken or used on every team ever.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

If thats the case then go and find a source that uses Alexwolfs definition to prove your "facts". Doubt you will find one. In the dictionary on the main page there is nothing. and a short google search only brought this up. https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue6/gimmicks which is yet another definition.

alexwolf's definition isn't actually different from the definition in that article. He just summed it up instead stating the full definition. Using the Metagross in that article as an example, its set was not considered optimal; it was used solely for luring and weakening a small number of its counters, and even the author admitted that, "...using a mixed set considerably dilutes Metagross' attacking power and as such it should be used as more of a lure than as a sweeper (its Speed is also still lacking)". The author also mentioned that while good gimmicks can be useful in small tournaments where you only play an opponent once, they are bad for laddering since the surprise factor wears off too quickly and doesn't net you enough wins in the long run, which is why so many players have issues with being pressured into running gimmicks if they want to keep running whatever team archetype they're using.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

technically thunderus can check both of those via grass knot and focus blast if it wanted to.
I could run a scarf set and outspeed them both
Or just invest a little in bulk
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 248-292 (82.6 - 97.3%)
It can already tank a hit so by definition it can check it.

Granted scarf thundurus is quite bad and bulky set isn't really good either, but it still can check them even though they should be uncheckable by thundurus(which imo is why it should be suspected also)

Back on baton pass tho. when is the vote taking place?

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Basicly every BP "counter" aims to prevent them from getting those boosts so even if you lose your counter, they shouldnt have many boosts and/or are on low HP where you can probably finish of one of the main components via priority. Ofc if you lose your counter in turn 3 without him doing anything then yes you will lose, but you know what? In that case you deserve that loss. Its the same if you lose your Chari X check and get swept by it. And honestly unless you make some realy bad missplays you should have done massive damage to the BP team before they manage to kill your counter so much that the rest of your team can clear up the leftovers.

Same for Xerneas, if you let it set up, that's your fault. So, let's un ban it into OU. . .

I stated this before, and I'm simply going to copy and paste it here, (Love repeating myself)

". . . it forces you to bring something to counter a playstyle you will rarely ever see, but, you HAVE to carry it if you ever wish to beat it when you do encounter it. . .

That is over centralization bud. . ."

That is the reason for this thread. This thread isn't to discuss how invincible the strategy is. It isn't to discuss how boring it is to play with or against. It's to discuss whether it over centralizes the meta or not, which it does.

That is not okay. A Pokemon may threaten you, but that is a lone Pokemon, and you can stop it with out a hard counter. . .
The same cannot be said about BP chains.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

So how does BP beat Stall teams with Skarmory or Mega Venusaur? They need to use the unreliable and gimmicky Smeargle to setup Ingrain to beat Skarm, or they risk getting repeatedly phazed around with Spikes up. And Mega Venusaur is free to spam Sludge Bomb against the likes of Sylveon and Espeon, as the former is weak to it and the latter can't afford to risk a poison.

 

[New Light]

So how does BP beat Stall teams with Skarmory or Mega Venusaur? They need to use the unreliable and gimmicky Smeargle to setup Ingrain to beat Skarm, or they risk getting repeatedly phazed around with Spikes up. And Mega Venusaur is free to spam Sludge Bomb against the likes of Sylveon and Espeon, as the former is weak to it and the latter can't afford to risk a poison.

Have you read any of this thread? Espeon is immune to Skarm's Whirlwind and nothing is taking much from Mega Venu after a Calm Mind or two. Hell, Mega Venu is basically set up fodder for BP. Even if something gets poisoned, it can always kill a few things or continue to set up then pass its boosts to a healthy recipient.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Have you read any of this thread? Espeon is immune to Skarm's Whirlwind and nothing is taking much from Mega Venu after a Calm Mind or two. Hell, Mega Venu is basically set up fodder for BP. Even if something gets poisoned, it can always kill a few things or continue to set up then pass its boosts to a healthy recipient.

Espeon can't do anything back to Skarmory though. And Brave Bird easily breaks its Subs, so Espeon will be forced out really soon, after which Skarmory can Whirlwind. And you can't setup those CM's with Sylveon or Espeon in the first place, as you risk an insta-loss to a Poison on your main sweeper. Mega Venusaur is also immune to Spore from Smeargle and basically smacks everything on BP around with Sludge Bomb. That's not setup fodder, lol.

 

[Sweep]

+1 252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 164-193 (49.1 - 57.7%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-Factoring in one Calm Mind boost and one Iron Defense boost. That is literally all Espeon needs to destroy Skarmory.

Edit # below: you're right about the spread, they are typically physically defensive (meaning after an Iron Defense pass, Skarmory's Brave Bird cannot even break Espeon's Substitute LOL). Skarm is still getting 3HKOed after a couple of boosts and 2HKOed after several. After an Iron Defense boost and Calm Mind boost, Stored Power has 100 base power so you are completely wrong about that. Tl;dr Espeon wrecks Whirlwind Skarmory.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

+1 252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 164-193 (49.1 - 57.7%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-Factoring in one Calm Mind boost and one Iron Defense boost. That is literally all Espeon needs to destroy Skarmory.

No Espeon runs 252 SpA on Baton Pass. And how is Stored Power supposed to be 100 BP? This is the right calc after one CM (that's already after Espy came in to take a Brave Bird too, and another one on the CM)

+1 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 81-96 (24.2 - 28.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

As for Albacore, you don't have right of speaking, you're calcing with a +2 Iron Defense boost that Scolipede can't even get against Whirlwind Skarm. And Scolipede can't do anything to Venusaur, Sludge Bomb 2HKO's so you can't pass a free Sub to something else either.

Seriously though, lots of bias here but common sense is hard to find.

 

[Karxrida]

Seriously though, lots of bias here but common sense is hard to find.

You're one to talk.

It had already been established tha BP shits on stall and there's nothing you can do about it unless you're running stupid shit like Haze Quagsire.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

No Espeon runs 252 SpA on Baton Pass. And how is Stored Power supposed to be 100 BP? This is the right calc after one CM (that's already after Espy came in to take a Brave Bird too, and another one on the CM)

+1 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 81-96 (24.2 - 28.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

As for Albacore, you don't have right of speaking, you're calcing with a +2 Iron Defense boost that Scolipede can't even get against Whirlwind Skarm. And Scolipede can't do anything to Venusaur, Sludge Bomb 2HKO's so you can't pass a free Sub to something else either.

Seriously though, lots of bias here but common sense is hard to find.

This brings it down to the 50/50 we have been talking about this whole time. Scoli is going to get his +1 in speed, that's a given, but if the BP user predicts a Whirlwind and goes into Espeon, the skarm is out and Espeon does as it pleases. If Skarm Brave birds, and the BP user predicts that and Iron Defenses, Skarm does pitiful damage, (0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 120-144 (37 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO) Scoli laughs and BPs into Espeon next turn and Skarm hopes for a crit.

We've established the first 3-5 turns are the most detrimental, regardless of what playstyle it may be.

Again, no one here is saying it's unstoppable. . .

Seriously though, lots of bias here but common sense is hard to find.

 

[Albacore]

lol Scoliopede just sets up over Venusaur, do you even know how BP works?

Oh, and I hope you realise that phasing BP out does not equal defeating it. Let's just assume that for some reason, Scoliopede stays in on your Whirlwind instead of passing to Espeon and counter-phazing you. Okay, now what? Vaporeon just sets up an Acid Armor, passes to Espeon and beats you. Smeargle spores you, sets up an Ingrain, and passes to anything he wants, permanently stopping your phazing. Zapdos simply just 2HKOs you. The only favorable Pokemon to get sent in are Espeon and Sylveon, so you basically have a 3/5 chance for the Whirlwind to leave you in a disadvantageous position. Besides, both of them can just pass to Zapdos to take a Brave Bird, and if you decide to Whirlwind, the cycle carries on until they land on Smeargle/Zapdos. I don't see how Skarm can do anything vs BP. And that's even assuming you predict perfectly vs the BP user which you probably won't.