Other XY OU Viability Ranking: Sets

[AM]

Life Orb Kyurem-B is for the most part B+. You break a lot of walls but generally do less well against offense due to its issues with speed. Defog Mew is like B+ maybe B or less even. You lose a good amount of usefulness running Mew as a subpar Defog user when you're better off running something else for that role.

 

[Nabilla Benattia]

I'd like to nominate scarf lando-t to A rank because of it's ability to check a large portion of the meta, with good bulk, speed and power. I wouldn't put it higher because of the lack of specialization, ie lower bulk than defensive landoge, and being a worse specialized revenge killer than scarf terrakion or keldeo, but finding a nice happy medium, letting it fit on balance well.

 

[Valmanway]

The thread is kind of dying..
Is it possible for a mon to be ranked in S, and have no sets in S? Char-X now has the problem, and if it's ranked as an S rank mon, shouldn't it have at least one set in S? So I think all the mons need to have at least one set(which is their best one) in their corresponding rank, to make sense. Or does a bunch of A+ sets mean versatility?

Versatility can equate to an S Rank, even if none of the sets are S-Rank worthy. So the short answer is yes, it is possible for a Pokemon to be S Rank without any sets being in S Rank here.

 

[Lord Wallace]

Poison Heal Leech Seed Breloom for B+

Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Protect
- Drain Punch
- Leech Seed
- Spore

That's typically the most optimal spread right now but I feel like some EVs could be invested in Def as well to avoid certain 2HKOs.

In a meta shifting towards Water types, Ground types, and weather offense (namely Rain and Sand) I feel like this set is capable of making a comeback as a team player. First off, this thing completely craps on all considered "bulky waters" with really only Azumarill as the possible exception. So right off the bat it makes an excellent teammate for Pokemon like Talonflame who appreciate Slowbro and Rotom-W kept at bay, without even fearing Scald.
It completely walls Landorus-T and is capable of being a decent check to Thundurus, Keldeo, Tyranitar, (Mega) Gyarados, Ferrothorn, Magnezone, Bisharp, Excadrill and even Garchomp without SD (Dragon Claw won't 2hko and neither will Fire Blast), and anything it can't beat 1v1 it can just put to sleep or Leech Seed on the switch for a teammate.
Not to mention this thing is a complete pest to Rain teams. Kabutops has a measly .4 % to 2HKO with Rain Boosted Adamant Life Orb Waterfall, and in turn faces almost an OHKO from Drain Punch. Politoed can't touch it, Flamethrower Mega Manectric loses 1v1, especially in the rain, Ferrothorn loses to this, most Thundurus lose. Raikou doesn't fare well bar Specs Extrasensory. Even the mighty Specs Kingdra has only a very small chance to OHKO with Draco Meteor, and Rain Boosted Surf will not 2HKO on the switch, and the mixed sweeper set will more often than not lose or be forced into Outrage at the very least.
Sand doesn't fare much better. Tyranitar, Landorus-T and any Garchomp not carrying Outrage or SD straight up lose. Rotom-W, a common partner to Sand, loses, Terrakion and Greninja can threaten it but cannot risk switching in. Mandibuzz loses.
Pretty much anything reliant on status to wear down the opponent also generally won't do well against Breloom, meaning it has a pretty ok matchup against stall as well, especially since SDef Tran can't actually knock it out in one blow and takes massive damage from Drain Punch.

Poison Heal Breloom definitely has its merits over TechLoom especially in the current metagame where TechLoom tends to struggle with being frail and prone to status which can impair it's ability to perform against ubiquitous Water and Ground types. However, for every common threat it does well against there's probably an equal amount of threats it will do horribly against. But for the positive qualities it does have there's not much in the game that can do exactly what Poison Heal Breloom does and I believe it has great synergy with common Pokemon used on balanced teams in particular and is deserving of B+.

 

[Jacks0n]

also 3 more noms :x

life orb 3 attacks substitute gengar -> A
Absoloute monster in this meta, does not have a single counter, but only checks and faster mons. Really solid, powerful and great coveredge.

Swords dance garchomp -> B+
Definately its worst set, with no boost to speed its not that threatening to offence, and skarm completely walls it so yeh.

Calm mind manaphy -> B/B+
As said before generally outclassed by cune, but isn't hampered by rest talk.

Tail glow + rain dance manaphy -> A-
By far its best set, wrecks defensive teams, and still pulls weight againsts offence.

 

[Bizdis]

I'm not going to nominate any pokemon to move up or down, but I just have an issue with how Clefable's sets are divided up - "unaware" is listed as a+, and "unaware cleric" is listed as a-. Presumably, "unaware" means the unaware CM set whereas "unaware cleric" means the Moonblast/Wish/Protect/Heal Bell set. Just to be clear, "cleric" can just be defined as a pokemon that heals status rather than a pokemon that does that and passes wishes. The main issue I have with this is that due to fairy's strong offensive typing, Moonblast/CM/Moonlight/Heal Bell is a perfectly viable set to serve as both a wincon for stall and to reset status conditions while it's at it, and this falls into both categories, giving it two different rankings.

To remedy this, I'd like the "Unaware" set to be called "Unaware CM", and the "Unaware Cleric" set to be renamed "Unaware Cleric + Wishpasser". This is absolutely me being particular, but currently it's unclear which viability ranking the Moonblast/CM/Moonlight/Heal Bell set falls into.

 

[jvl101993]

Personally, I don't think the Cleric set is what makes Clefable A+. It's that Magic Guard CM Clefable with Life Orb. Once you weaken or eliminate its checks and counters, it's a fantastic win-condition. I'm not a huge fan of the Unaware + Calm Mind set, since Soft-Boiled is illegal with it, and Life Orb adds a nice, sizable chunk of damage, especially with a couple of boosts. It's also nice to be able to set up on defensive Pokemon like SubToxic Gliscor because of the immunity to Toxic, burn, hazards, and residual damage in general. I think Unaware CM is probably an A/A- set, while Cleric Clefable is around the same area, maybe A-/B+. But Magic Guard + Calm Mind is definitely the set that makes Clefable A+ worthy, in my opinion.

 

[Pagoose]

Poison Heal Leech Seed Breloom for B+

Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Protect
- Drain Punch
- Leech Seed
- Spore

That's typically the most optimal spread right now but I feel like some EVs could be invested in Def as well to avoid certain 2HKOs.

In a meta shifting towards Water types, Ground types, and weather offense (namely Rain and Sand) I feel like this set is capable of making a comeback as a team player. First off, this thing completely craps on all considered "bulky waters" with really only Azumarill as the possible exception. So right off the bat it makes an excellent teammate for Pokemon like Talonflame who appreciate Slowbro and Rotom-W kept at bay, without even fearing Scald.
It completely walls Landorus-T and is capable of being a decent check to Thundurus, Keldeo, Tyranitar, (Mega) Gyarados, Ferrothorn, Magnezone, Bisharp, Excadrill and even Garchomp without SD (Dragon Claw won't 2hko and neither will Fire Blast), and anything it can't beat 1v1 it can just put to sleep or Leech Seed on the switch for a teammate.
Not to mention this thing is a complete pest to Rain teams. Kabutops has a measly .4 % to 2HKO with Rain Boosted Adamant Life Orb Waterfall, and in turn faces almost an OHKO from Drain Punch. Politoed can't touch it, Flamethrower Mega Manectric loses 1v1, especially in the rain, Ferrothorn loses to this, most Thundurus lose. Raikou doesn't fare well bar Specs Extrasensory. Even the mighty Specs Kingdra has only a very small chance to OHKO with Draco Meteor, and Rain Boosted Surf will not 2HKO on the switch, and the mixed sweeper set will more often than not lose or be forced into Outrage at the very least.
Sand doesn't fare much better. Tyranitar, Landorus-T and any Garchomp not carrying Outrage or SD straight up lose. Rotom-W, a common partner to Sand, loses, Terrakion and Greninja can threaten it but cannot risk switching in. Mandibuzz loses.
Pretty much anything reliant on status to wear down the opponent also generally won't do well against Breloom, meaning it has a pretty ok matchup against stall as well, especially since SDef Tran can't actually knock it out in one blow and takes massive damage from Drain Punch.

Poison Heal Breloom definitely has its merits over TechLoom especially in the current metagame where TechLoom tends to struggle with being frail and prone to status which can impair it's ability to perform against ubiquitous Water and Ground types. However, for every common threat it does well against there's probably an equal amount of threats it will do horribly against. But for the positive qualities it does have there's not much in the game that can do exactly what Poison Heal Breloom does and I believe it has great synergy with common Pokemon used on balanced teams in particular and is deserving of B+.

I dont see why ph loom should be B+ when chesnaught, a far bulkier pokemon with the same typing, is only B-. The only thing ph loom beats that chesnaught doesn is rotom-w, thanks to the burn immunity, but rotom-w is so weak every decently special bulky mon beats it. Chesnaught also gets spikes and is in general a far better mon than ph loom. Ph loom is simply not bulky enough to deal with some of the threats you mentioned consistently; bisharp and excadrill ca just power straight through you with iron head, all garchomps (or should, anyway) carry outrage, raikou and thundurus wreck it with hp ice or extrasensory, kingdra uses hydro pump or dragon pulse to 2hko. It doesn't even counter slowbro well, as psyshock and even ice beam wreck it, and slowbro can switch to a counter on the predictable protect, getting back health from regenerator in the process. (Although, to be fair, chesnaught can't counter special electrics or waters very well either.)

In summary, there is very little reason to use ph loom when the much bulkier chesnaught exists, except for countering rotom-w, who is very easy to take advantage of.

 

[AM]

also 3 more noms :x

life orb 3 attacks substitute gengar -> A
Absoloute monster in this meta, does not have a single counter, but only checks and faster mons. Really solid, powerful and great coveredge.

Swords dance garchomp -> B+
Definately its worst set, with no boost to speed its not that threatening to offence, and skarm completely walls it so yeh.

Calm mind manaphy -> B/B+
As said before generally outclassed by cune, but isn't hampered by rest talk.

Tail glow + rain dance manaphy -> A-
By far its best set, wrecks defensive teams, and still pulls weight againsts offence.

Ok so continuing on from this I think the Gengar nomination should just be Life Orb Gengar or something in that similar vein within that same rank ofc. There's actually deviations from the set as to what support moves are used and things such as SubSplit, 3 attacks + Dbond, 3 attacks + taunt, are all worthy of that rank and use the same item. I think utility attacker should just go to A-. Let's be honest, the utility attacker set was just so much better during the days of more stall and right now it doesn't work equal to that of an A rank set unless the team you're facing is just naturally Gengar weak. Plus if you choose Hex over Shadow Ball you still have to contend with the fact that you won't be breaking things such as Zard X and Heatran due to typing. The set itself is alright but doesn't even do well against a more bulky offense and generally offense so utility attacker can go in A-.

Swords Dance Garchomp should be A-. People underrate this thing a lot and look at it as if it's just 3 attacks + SD when it's actually not. More and more people are starting to run SD + SR chomps not only as a lead but as something to use to break things like Slowbro, Ferrothorn, and some other bulky stuff in the tier. I don't see how being walled by Skarmory is an issue when its paired up with something to handle Skarm and the support required to do that is equal to that of A- ranked mons in general. As such the set within itself can be considered an A- set to use.

The manaphy rankings for what Jacks0n posted are fine.

 

[Lord Wallace]

I dont see why ph loom should be B+ when chesnaught, a far bulkier pokemon with the same typing, is only B-. The only thing ph loom beats that chesnaught doesn is rotom-w, thanks to the burn immunity, but rotom-w is so weak every decently special bulky mon beats it. Chesnaught also gets spikes and is in general a far better mon than ph loom. Ph loom is simply not bulky enough to deal with some of the threats you mentioned consistently; bisharp and excadrill ca just power straight through you with iron head, all garchomps (or should, anyway) carry outrage, raikou and thundurus wreck it with hp ice or extrasensory, kingdra uses hydro pump or dragon pulse to 2hko. It doesn't even counter slowbro well, as psyshock and even ice beam wreck it, and slowbro can switch to a counter on the predictable protect, getting back health from regenerator in the process. (Although, to be fair, chesnaught can't counter special electrics or waters very well either.)

In summary, there is very little reason to use ph loom when the much bulkier chesnaught exists, except for countering rotom-w, who is very easy to take advantage of.

Chesnaught doesn't get Spore, Drain Punch, and is complete status bait.
Breloom doesn't get wrecked by Thundurus HP Ice at all. With Poison Heal taken into account it's actually never 2HKOed and can just stall out Special Electrics with Leech Seed + Protect. Even Mega Manectric's Flamethrower doesn't do enough damage to overpower Leech Seed Breloom. Since when can Chesnaught say it can do that?
Poison Heal really does make all the difference here at least in regards to special bulk. Slowbro's Ice Beam is pitifully weak by the way, it really only fears the uncommon Psyshock. Rotom-W is probably one of the most common Water types right now, even remotley struggling against it is awful for Chesnaught.
I'll concede Chesnaught obviously does better as a physical tank which is why I said Breloom is only a check to Bisharp and Drill, it obviously won't want to switch in like Ches probably can.
Point being Chesnaught and PH Breloom are worlds apart in terms of what they each can counter and check.
Countering common special waters and electrics and defensive grounds is where PH Breloom shines and I feel like that particular niche is in a lot more demand in the current meta than being able to switch in on Bisharp and Excadrill, which plenty of other defensive Pokemon better than Ches can already do and then some, which is why I believe PH Loom is more viable than Chesnaught.

 

[Ruyen]

I'm gonna nominate a few sets without actually detailing what they are because I'm going to assume people know the moves these sets run. In any case :

Assault Vest Azumarill --> S : Very easy S rank, great pivot, great tank, huge threat to offense, very easy to use, increadibly easy to put on a team, don't really think I need to explain this more. This is the set that makes Azumarill.
Choice Band Azumarill --> A/A+ : It's usually an inferior choice to AV since Azmarill would rather not be locked in and really loves the ability to beat Thundurus and YZard 1v1, but the extra power can be desireable, especially on sand weak team, and it's still obviously very threatening and easy to place on a team.
Belly Drum Azumarill --> A/A+ : BD is pretty hard to pull off, but it can be really devastating when you actually manage to do it. Even if you don't pull off a BD you still have Sitrus Berry which can be pretty clutch in a lot of situations. Much like the Banded set, not as good as AV, but still very good.
Every Thundurus set --> S : I really can't think of a Thundurus set that doesn't merit S. The standard TWave 3 Attacks set is a powerful attacker with invaluable utility. Nasty Plot is extremely dangerous if you can pull it off, even more so if you forgo the utility of Thunder Wave for a coverage move. Knock Off+Superpower is also great, threatening stuff such as Chansey and Latias that can usually beat you. Really, pretty much any combination of Thunderbolt/TWave/HP Ice or Flying/Knock Off/Focus Blast or Superpower/Psychic/Grass Knot is S-rank worthy, unless you pair up Nasty Plot with Knock Off or Superpower or Psychic with HP Flying or something.
Choice Specs Keldeo --> S : Literally the easiest thing in the world to use, just send it in and click Scald. Even if you don't do much damage, you'll at least have worn something down. Hydro Pump for hitting hard, Secret Sword for special walls and Water resists, then you can pick and choose between Icy Wind, HP Flying, or even HP Electric for Starmie and Gyarados. Very easy to fit on teams, very threatening and can still put in work against teams with multiple Pokemon that resist its dual STAB (ie Latias+Azumarill).
Choice Scarf Keldeo --> A+ : Pretty good revenge killer that gained a lot of popularity recently, however, it's arguably not as good as specs since it's a lot easier to switch into and doesn't really fit on as many teams as the Choice Specs set.
Choice Scarf Excadrill --> B : Not very good... Really, Excadrill needs Sand Support to work at its fullest. As a Scarfer, it's much easier to switch into and to revenge kill, and pretty much eclipsed by Scarf Landorus-T. As a spinner, it sucks becuase it loses momentum like crazy, giving a completely free turn to the opponent.
Choice Band Talonflame --> A-/A : This set kinda struggles in the current metagame. It's shifted from hyper offense more towards bulky offense, and as a result, it doesn't really cause much of a problem for most teams since most have something that can easily switch into it. Also, since setup sweepers are a little less common now, its role of revenge killer is less needed. I haven't used much of that SD or BU sets so I can't really discuss that, and the stallbreaker set is completely and utterly godly and def deserves to be A+.
Offensive LO Starmie --> B : It's just not quite as good as the defensive set. Most offensive teams can very easily fit a Lati so don't really need Starmie in the first place. It's pretty good on hazard-reliant HO which uses a suicide lead, but outside of spinning it's eclipsed by Greninja (though Analytic Hydro Pump is really strong, and Natural Cure is a great perk especially vs Thundurus, so it's not bad or anything, and defensitely has a solid niche, it's just that said nice is not quite as important as Bulky Starmie's niche of providing extremely reliable Rapid Spin support for defensive teams).
Choice Scarf Jirachi --> B-/B : This set is okay I guess, but Jirachi usually wants the bulk and recovery necessary to consistently counter MGardevoir, so the Scarf set just isn't as good as the SpD set for the most part.
Defensive Mega-Venusaur --> A- : It's not as good as the offensive set since it's far easier to switch into and doesn't fit quite as well on bulky offensive teams, but it's still pretty decent on stall and semi-stall, just somewhat eclipsed by Amoonguss.
Choice Scarf Rotom-W --> C- : Garbage set that completely forfeits Rotom-W's bulk and ability to act as a slow pivot+switch into certain threats for the ability to act as a much, much, much worse Lando-T and maybe lure Chansey. Should not be used no matter what the ladder thinks.

oh yeah and I think that we should have an E-rank for sets that are completely and utterly terrible but that some people still use for whatever reason (see: physical Greninja)

 

[Ruyen]

I'm gonna nominate a few sets without actually detailing what they are because I'm going to assume people know the moves these sets run. In any case :

Assault Vest Azumarill --> S : Very easy S rank, great pivot, great tank, huge threat to offense, very easy to use, increadibly easy to put on a team, don't really think I need to explain this more. This is the set that makes Azumarill.
Choice Band Azumarill --> A/A+ : It's usually an inferior choice to AV since Azmarill would rather not be locked in and really loves the ability to beat Thundurus and YZard 1v1, but the extra power can be desireable, especially on sand weak team, and it's still obviously very threatening and easy to place on a team.
Belly Drum Azumarill --> A/A+ : BD is pretty hard to pull off, but it can be really devastating when you actually manage to do it. Even if you don't pull off a BD you still have Sitrus Berry which can be pretty clutch in a lot of situations. Much like the Banded set, not as good as AV, but still very good.
Every Thundurus set --> S : I really can't think of a Thundurus set that doesn't merit S. The standard TWave 3 Attacks set is a powerful attacker with invaluable utility. Nasty Plot is extremely dangerous if you can pull it off, even more so if you forgo the utility of Thunder Wave for a coverage move. Knock Off+Superpower is also great, threatening stuff such as Chansey and Latias that can usually beat you. Really, pretty much any combination of Thunderbolt/TWave/HP Ice or Flying/Knock Off/Focus Blast or Superpower/Psychic/Grass Knot is S-rank worthy, unless you pair up Nasty Plot with Knock Off or Superpower or Psychic with HP Flying or something.
Choice Specs Keldeo --> S : Literally the easiest thing in the world to use, just send it in and click Scald. Even if you don't do much damage, you'll at least have worn something down. Hydro Pump for hitting hard, Secret Sword for special walls and Water resists, then you can pick and choose between Icy Wind, HP Flying, or even HP Electric for Starmie and Gyarados. Very easy to fit on teams, very threatening and can still put in work against teams with multiple Pokemon that resist its dual STAB (ie Latias+Azumarill).
Choice Scarf Keldeo --> A+ : Pretty good revenge killer that gained a lot of popularity recently, however, it's arguably not as good as specs since it's a lot easier to switch into and doesn't really fit on as many teams as the Choice Specs set.
Choice Scarf Excadrill --> B : Not very good... Really, Excadrill needs Sand Support to work at its fullest. As a Scarfer, it's much easier to switch into and to revenge kill, and pretty much eclipsed by Scarf Landorus-T. As a spinner, it sucks becuase it loses momentum like crazy, giving a completely free turn to the opponent.
Choice Band Talonflame --> A-/A : This set kinda struggles in the current metagame. It's shifted from hyper offense more towards bulky offense, and as a result, it doesn't really cause much of a problem for most teams since most have something that can easily switch into it. Also, since setup sweepers are a little less common now, its role of revenge killer is less needed. I haven't used much of that SD or BU sets so I can't really discuss that, and the stallbreaker set is completely and utterly godly and def deserves to be A+.
Offensive LO Starmie --> B : It's just not quite as good as the defensive set. Most offensive teams can very easily fit a Lati so don't really need Starmie in the first place. It's pretty good on hazard-reliant HO which uses a suicide lead, but outside of spinning it's eclipsed by Greninja (though Analytic Hydro Pump is really strong, and Natural Cure is a great perk especially vs Thundurus, so it's not bad or anything, and defensitely has a solid niche, it's just that said nice is not quite as important as Bulky Starmie's niche of providing extremely reliable Rapid Spin support for defensive teams).
Choice Scarf Jirachi --> B-/B : This set is okay I guess, but Jirachi usually wants the bulk and recovery necessary to consistently counter MGardevoir, so the Scarf set just isn't as good as the SpD set for the most part.
Defensive Mega-Venusaur --> A- : It's not as good as the offensive set since it's far easier to switch into and doesn't fit quite as well on bulky offensive teams, but it's still pretty decent on stall and semi-stall, just somewhat eclipsed by Amoonguss.
Choice Scarf Rotom-W --> C- : Garbage set that completely forfeits Rotom-W's bulk and ability to act as a slow pivot+switch into certain threats for the ability to act as a much, much, much worse Lando-T and maybe lure Chansey. Should not be used no matter what the ladder thinks.

oh yeah and I think that we should have an E-rank for sets that are completely and utterly terrible but that some people still use for whatever reason (see: physical Greninja)

I use double edge on my choiced azumaril so that i can deal with amoongus and venusaur/ mega venusaur. (play rough, watefall, and super power won't even touch them) and this set has never failed me. i also use double edge because i forgot to breed aqua jet onto it.

 

[Ruyen]

Chesnaught doesn't get Spore, Drain Punch, and is complete status bait.
Breloom doesn't get wrecked by Thundurus HP Ice at all. With Poison Heal taken into account it's actually never 2HKOed and can just stall out Special Electrics with Leech Seed + Protect. Even Mega Manectric's Flamethrower doesn't do enough damage to overpower Leech Seed Breloom. Since when can Chesnaught say it can do that?
Poison Heal really does make all the difference here at least in regards to special bulk. Slowbro's Ice Beam is pitifully weak by the way, it really only fears the uncommon Psyshock. Rotom-W is probably one of the most common Water types right now, even remotley struggling against it is awful for Chesnaught.
I'll concede Chesnaught obviously does better as a physical tank which is why I said Breloom is only a check to Bisharp and Drill, it obviously won't want to switch in like Ches probably can.
Point being Chesnaught and PH Breloom are worlds apart in terms of what they each can counter and check.
Countering common special waters and electrics and defensive grounds is where PH Breloom shines and I feel like that particular niche is in a lot more demand in the current meta than being able to switch in on Bisharp and Excadrill, which plenty of other defensive Pokemon better than Ches can already do and then some, which is why I believe PH Loom is more viable than Chesnaught.

but chesnaught has bulletproof and spikey shield to cover for that. it also has a plethora of sets that you cant tell what it is until you see that 3 move

 

[Ruyen]

while looking through the thread I had some noms to make and albacore covered a lot of them. i definitely agree with avestzu, specs keldeo, and np 3 attacks / twave 3 attacks / np + twave thund in s rank, id probably put physical variations or mixed ones in a+ but i don't feel too strongly about that. some form of four attacks landorus is another solid s ranker, but offensive stealth rock, calm mind, and rock polish are probably a+ individually. i'd put cb azu and bd azu at a rank personally, cb azu is strong but it really treads on avest's territory of being able to check a ton of pokemon. finally, ive used spikes greninja and it's pretty great actually, forces switches like no other while still maintaining great offensive power.

in summary:
Assault Vest Azumarill = S Rank
Choice Specs Keldeo = S Rank
NP 3 Attacks Thundurus = S Rank
TWave 3 Attacks Thundurus = S Rank
NP + TWave Thundurus = S Rank
4 Attacks Landorus = S Rank
Offensive SR Landorus = A+ Rank
CM " = A+ Rank
RP " = A+ Rank
CB Azu = A Rank
BD Azu = A Rank
4 Attacks Greninja = A+ Rank
Spikes Greninja = A+ Rank

love this thread btw, ill have to post in it often. there's a lot to talk about so itll be fun.

i find that toxic spikes instead of spikes forces even more switches because they want to get rid of them. so while they switch in a poison or steel type i set up spikes and then repeat.

 

[Valmanway]

Ruyen , while it's great to see that you've taken interest in this thread, you should try to avoid double posting. Welcome to Smogon, by the way!

 

[zbr]

but chesnaught has bulletproof and spikey shield to cover for that. it also has a plethora of sets that you cant tell what it is until you see that 3 move

Uh bulletproof for ..? Spikey shield < spore. There isn't a "plethora of sets" for chesnaught. There's only one that is viable for OU and that is the Physically Defensive set as that set can take on the role of Ferro while not being Magnezone weak. Breloom is the one that outclasses Ches and even in our current meta, I wouldn't opt to go for either since offensive bird spam is so common. But having access to spore, drain punch, poison heal (better than synthesis), status blocker ability. This pretty much makes spdef loom > phydef Ches in terms of sets.

 

[Pagoose]

Chesnaught doesn't get Spore, Drain Punch, and is complete status bait.
Breloom doesn't get wrecked by Thundurus HP Ice at all. With Poison Heal taken into account it's actually never 2HKOed and can just stall out Special Electrics with Leech Seed + Protect. Even Mega Manectric's Flamethrower doesn't do enough damage to overpower Leech Seed Breloom. Since when can Chesnaught say it can do that?
Poison Heal really does make all the difference here at least in regards to special bulk. Slowbro's Ice Beam is pitifully weak by the way, it really only fears the uncommon Psyshock. Rotom-W is probably one of the most common Water types right now, even remotley struggling against it is awful for Chesnaught.
I'll concede Chesnaught obviously does better as a physical tank which is why I said Breloom is only a check to Bisharp and Drill, it obviously won't want to switch in like Ches probably can.
Point being Chesnaught and PH Breloom are worlds apart in terms of what they each can counter and check.
Countering common special waters and electrics and defensive grounds is where PH Breloom shines and I feel like that particular niche is in a lot more demand in the current meta than being able to switch in on Bisharp and Excadrill, which plenty of other defensive Pokemon better than Ches can already do and then some, which is why I believe PH Loom is more viable than Chesnaught.

It can't deal well with thundurus, raikou, or mega manectric at all. In fact, it gets 2hkod even taking into account poison heal.

Calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Breloom: 164-195 (50.6 - 60.1%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Breloom: 164-195 (50.6 - 60.1%) -- 86.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 SpA Raikou Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Breloom: 158-188 (48.7 - 58%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Raikou Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Breloom: 205-244 (63.2 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Breloom: 178-210 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Breloom: 200-236 (61.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Breloom: 286-338 (88.2 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Thundurus 2hkos 90% of the time after stealth rocks, Raikou has a 59% to 2hko even without stealth rocks, and with a life orb or choice specs, you get wrecked. Mega manectric easily 2hkos with flamethrower, and if its running overheat as it should, then it kinda just dies. Not to mention raikou and manectric will often just volt switch out to any of the many pokemon that immediately threaten ph loom. While it is true that slowbro doesnt often carry a psychic move, if it does then it will do upwards of 60% to breloom, and ice beam does enough that it is forced to protect in one of the next 2 turns, giving the opponent a free switch. ph loom has such bad bulk that it is forced to use protect extremely often, just so it doesnt die. Chesnaught may not be able to deal with these threats, but the point I'm trying to make is that neither can ph loom. Chesnaught on the other hand, can deal with several powerful threats that ph loom kinda just dies to, such as excadrill, mega gyarados, terrakion (iffy), bisharp, garchomp, mega tyranitar, choice scarf diggersby, gyarados, kabutops, and ironically, breloom. What does breloom beat reliably that chesnaught can't beat better? Rotom-w? It has spore too I guess, but that doesnt make up for the problems it has.

Poison Heal Breloom for C+

 

[Lord Wallace]

It can't deal well with thundurus, raikou, or mega manectric at all. In fact, it gets 2hkod even taking into account poison heal.

Calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Breloom: 164-195 (50.6 - 60.1%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Breloom: 164-195 (50.6 - 60.1%) -- 86.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 SpA Raikou Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Breloom: 158-188 (48.7 - 58%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Raikou Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Breloom: 205-244 (63.2 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Breloom: 178-210 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Breloom: 200-236 (61.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Breloom: 286-338 (88.2 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Thundurus 2hkos 90% of the time after stealth rocks, Raikou has a 59% to 2hko even without stealth rocks, and with a life orb or choice specs, you get wrecked. Mega manectric easily 2hkos with flamethrower, and if its running overheat as it should, then it kinda just dies. Not to mention raikou and manectric will often just volt switch out to any of the many pokemon that immediately threaten ph loom. While it is true that slowbro doesnt often carry a psychic move, if it does then it will do upwards of 60% to breloom, and ice beam does enough that it is forced to protect in one of the next 2 turns, giving the opponent a free switch. ph loom has such bad bulk that it is forced to use protect extremely often, just so it doesnt die. Chesnaught may not be able to deal with these threats, but the point I'm trying to make is that neither can ph loom. Chesnaught on the other hand, can deal with several powerful threats that ph loom kinda just dies to, such as excadrill, mega gyarados, terrakion (iffy), bisharp, garchomp, mega tyranitar, choice scarf diggersby, gyarados, kabutops, and ironically, breloom. What does breloom beat reliably that chesnaught can't beat better? Rotom-w? It has spore too I guess, but that doesnt make up for the problems it has.

Poison Heal Breloom for C+

> Life Orb Raikou lol nobody runs that. It's always either Specs or AV.
Nobody runs Overheat on Manectric anymore either since it really only needed it over Flamethrower for Aegislash. "If it's running Overheat like it should" hah get out of here.
You're also not taking into account the extra turn of Poison Heal yielded by Protect (allowing it to survive as you yourself said) and you also assume the opponent will bother to predict the switch into a potentially unrevealed Poison Heal Breloom and go for the coverage move in every battle it's in. I certainly wouldnt think twice to just spam LO Thunderbolt with Thundurus if I think it's the comparably frail and common TechLoom and no other switch ins are present. In practice those calcs have very little weight is all I'm saying.
Yes it's very reliant on Protect to beat those threats (which is still a whole lot better than just straight up losing like standard Chesnaught) I'll admit that much but to say it gives free turns for the opponent to switch out is a bit silly when we're talking about a Pokemon with access to a 100% accurate sleep inducing move (you essentially remove an opposing Pokemon from play for most of if not the remainder of the match, how does that not redeem Breloom's flaws?)
If anything Chesnaught fits that description a whole lot better with Spiky Shield plus a vulnerability to status to negate Leech Seed recovery (broadening the amount of things that want to switch in on it).
Sure PH Breloom can't be used mindlessly to be effective but that still doesn't mean it's that bad and it doesnt take away the fact that it has great synergy with common balanced archetypes (as I explained in my first comment) without absolutely killing momentum like Chesnaught.

PH Breloom for B.

 

[Ruyen]

Ruyen , while it's great to see that you've taken interest in this thread, you should try to avoid double posting. Welcome to Smogon, by the way!

thanks i share this acount with several people, we are a team of battlers so we each imputed something

Uh bulletproof for ..? Spikey shield < spore. There isn't a "plethora of sets" for chesnaught. There's only one that is viable for OU and that is the Physically Defensive set as that set can take on the role of Ferro while not being Magnezone weak. Breloom is the one that outclasses Ches and even in our current meta, I wouldn't opt to go for either since offensive bird spam is so common. But having access to spore, drain punch, poison heal (better than synthesis), status blocker ability. This pretty much makes spdef loom > phydef Ches in terms of sets.

what i meant with the sets was that you can mix and match the moves for each set. just about every viable move he has can be swapped for another and still be good

 

[Pagoose]

> Life Orb Raikou lol nobody runs that. It's always either Specs or AV.

Yes, and as you may have noticed both assualt vest and choice specs 2hko. Stop nitpicking

> Nobody runs Overheat on Manectric anymore either since it really only needed it over Flamethrower for Aegislash. "If it's running Overheat like it should" hah get out of here.

It should be running overheat because it secures kos on can't excadrill, mega heracross, and magnezone, whereas flamethrower can only 2hko them. Even if it does run flamethrower, it still 2hkos. You're just nitpicking again.

>
You're also not taking into account the extra turn of Poison Heal yielded by Protect (allowing it to survive as you yourself said) and you also assume the opponent will bother to predict the switch into a potentially unrevealed Poison Heal Breloom and go for the coverage move in every battle it's in. I certainly wouldnt think twice to just spam LO Thunderbolt with Thundurus if I think it's the comparably frail and common TechLoom and no other switch ins are present. In practice those calcs have very little weight is all I'm saying.
Yes it's very reliant on Protect to beat those threats (which is still a whole lot better than just straight up losing like standard Chesnaught) I'll admit that much but to say it gives free turns for the opponent to switch out is a bit silly when we're talking about a Pokemon with access to a 100% accurate sleep inducing move (you essentially remove an opposing Pokemon from play for most of if not the remainder of the match, how does that not redeem Breloom's flaws?)
If anything Chesnaught fits that description a whole lot better with Spiky Shield plus a vulnerability to status to negate Leech Seed recovery (broadening the amount of things that want to switch in on it).
Sure PH Breloom can't be used mindlessly to be effective but that still doesn't mean it's that bad and it doesnt take away the fact that it has great synergy with common balanced archetypes (as I explained in my first comment) without absolutely killing momentum like Chesnaught.

PH Breloom for B.

The opponent not knowing its poison heal only works once. Even on that first turn, after switching in on the thunderbolt and taking an hp ice you're on 50%, even after leech seed and ph recovery. This again forces you to go for protect, leaving you vunerable. Don't assume your opponent is bad and wont take advantage of the protects. Chesnaught may have spiky shield, but the difference is that it doesn't need to use it to beat most of the threats it counters. (The exception being bounce gyarados and assualt vest azamarill. Yes, chesnaught can actually switch into a waterfall and come out on top against av azumarill.) Breloom does not counter anything chesnaught does not counter, with the exception of rotom-w, whereas chesnaught counters many things breloom does not, such as bisharp, excadrill, mega gyarados, mega tyranitar, and terrakion (kinda), as well as giving amazing team support with spikes.

 

[Karxrida]

Poison Heal Breloom is actually kinda shit. It's extremely easy to switch into after Sleep Clause and kinda jut sits there (unlike Sash which can actually kill things with Technician Mach Punch). It's super easy to force out due to its bad typing and defenses and gives free switches to/is setup bait for top tier threats like Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, Lati@s, Clefable, Thundurus, Charizard (both Megas), Gyarados, and some other shit. The only thing it's going to accomplish is Sporing something then revealing you're Poison Heal, which Sash already does but has better offensive pressure. It should probably just be left off the list due too how easy it is to take advantage of.

 

[Lord Wallace]

Poison Heal Breloom is actually kinda shit. It's extremely easy to switch into after Sleep Clause and kinda jut sits there (unlike Sash which can actually kill things with Technician Mach Punch). It's super easy to force out due to its bad typing and defenses and gives free switches to/is setup bait for top tier threats like Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, Lati@s, Clefable, Thundurus, Charizard (both Megas), Gyarados, and some other shit. The only thing it's going to accomplish is Sporing something then revealing you're Poison Heal, which Sash already does but has better offensive pressure. It should probably just be left off the list due too how easy it is to take advantage of.

And Chesnaught doesn't have the same issues against the same Pokemon? Yet it's on the list despite missing out on Spore, being prone to status and having worse recovery. Just saying. I didn't think Spikes could put it up that much further above PH Loom tbh

 

[Karxrida]

And Chesnaught doesn't have the same issues against the same Pokemon? Yet it's on the list despite missing out on Spore, being prone to status and having worse recovery. Just saying. I didn't think Spikes could put it up that much further above PH Loom tbh

Chesnaught has bulk so it can actually switch into things. I never brought it up as a better alternative since its not as good as it used to be anyway.

 

[Lord Wallace]

Fair enough. As I'm re-reading the rank descriptions C is probably alright for either of them.

 

[quagback2qc]

Does anyone like the counter Skar set with rocky helmet, sturdy and taunt? It is really useful, although hates subs. It definitely hits back hard on any phys attacker that hurts it.