Sorry, gotta disagree on S. Infernape, Conkeldurr and Breloom force it to switch out because of Mach Punch. Doesn't possess the speed even with Sucker Punch. Maybe A+ w/ Heatran, but I'll abstain at the moment.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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Fair point. Although the situation is different, as practically everything can outspeed OHKO scizor with HP fire.
I will post in underlined because you put bold text in your post.
Here's a short list so far. Discussion on these pokemon is highly encouraged:
Celebi: It got demolished by +2 Crunches and Dark Pulses from -M Lucario and +1 Uturns from Genesect. Its defensive capabilities have improved, as well as offensive, as two pokemon that resisted its STAB are now gone. C+ ---> B-/B
In general, Psychic and Grass was two of the types hurt by the two threads that got banned.
Quagsire: With the one non-grass physical attacker that it couldn't check out of the way, M-Lucario, Quagsire has gotten better defensively. C ---> C+/B-
Not. Quagsiure has porr stats that iuf it wasn't for Unaware it would be unviable I don't suiggest puttiung up C for now
Hippowdon: The hippo has always been awesome defensively, but two things held it back: STAB from M-Lucario and ice beams from genesect. Now those aren't relevant, so he can wall so much more. B+ -----> A-
I think that A- for a pokemon that isn't on the Top 100 right now is pushing it. I will put it in B* still because special attacker with Water, Grass and Ice sttacks will rise.
Slowbro: Slowbro, like Hippowdon, is a great defensive choice. But, +2 Crunches and Dark Pulses from -M Lucario and +1 Uturns and Thundurbolts from Genesect were very hard to take. Now, with none of those existing, I'd suggest B ------> B+
I agree. Slowbro is a really great in this metagame- Regenerator means that it can afford to go an Assault Vest and can be annoying to deal sometimes. And psychic is less a liability this time (there's still Aegislash, though)
Slowking: Like its bro, Slowking is a great defensive choice. But, +2 Crunches and Dark Pulses from -M Lucario and +1 Uturns and Thundurbolts from Genesect were very hard to take. Now, with none of those existing, I'd suggest C- ------> C+
I rise with this up because Psychic types has beeen buffed with the bans in general. Slowking rise makes sense with rise with Slowbro rise.
Crawdaunt: Crawdaunt used to find it very hard to deal with T-bolts and Uturns from genesect and fighting moves from M-lucario. C+ -------> B-
I agree with that. Crawdaunt is really great in this metagame. it's one of the Pokemon that got buffed to death this gen.
Alakazam: These descriptions are getting very repetitious. I'll just say a rating from now on if I feel the reasoning is obvious. B -----> B+
And with the decrease of priority Bullet Punch and Extremespeed, and the threat of U-turn, Mega Alakazam deserves the same rank because it's a very serious threat.
Mega Tyranitar: A -----> A+
I agree completely with this. Also, with normal tyranitar. Tyranitar has now only to deal with Conkeldurr as a top tier fighting types that are overly common. Mega Tyranitar has the benefits of having a very high defense for a offensive threat. Ah, I forgot that you post about Tyranitar below.
Wobbufett: C+ --------> B
Two threats less that it can't handle. Meaning that now every other U-turn (except maybe Scizor) can't be deal easily with Wobbuffet and there aren't +2 Dark pulse easily I think that deserves putting up 1 rank. B- could be a worthwhile rank for Wobbuffet rank now
Tyranitar: A -----> A+
I agree for the same reason as his mega. Other sets of tyranitar are also buffed for the abscene for two of his checks.
Cresselia: Unranked -----> C
Even more. Specially after two threats are gone. With less weather (aand Tyranitar Sand stream (the only one that you should care and it's benefited fromt he toher one) usually doesn't run Smooth Rock because Tyranitar now doesn't abuse sandstorm now. This means that Cresselia has reliable recovery now. And one really dangeropus U-turn out of the way (many of the Uturn are a threat of her). And don't forget the fact that this is the best mixed wall of the tier.
Meloetta: C- -------> C
His specially bulk almost exactly of Florges (which means it surpasses Sylveon a bit) means that Meloetta are technically better as a special tank. Right now Psychic types are less a liability right now, and Meloetta has the niche of being a Psychic that usually wins with Ghost not named Aegislash meaning gthat only really loses against offensive Dark and the rare Bug 8outside Scizor) abusers.
Delphox: Unranked ------> C-
Delphox is viable, specially now that Psychic types are in general more viable. Has Will-o-wisp (and a moveslot to use it) to cripple Bisharp and the rest of Darks (that are mainly physical except Greninja) and Fire/psychic is a goodoffensive combination. I think ti deserves D specially because it's outclassed
Victini: Unranked ------> C+
B tier. Victini is a beast with his physical set of V-Create/U-turn/Bolt Strike/Zen Headbutt. And this is not the only set it can run. It can run special sets with Blue Flare/Searing Shot (remember Scald), has decent defenses (100/100/100) and it's one of the few threats that canhave 3 STABs and not being a silly set (Ex: Zen headbutt/Bolt Strike/V-create/Blue Flare)
Xatu: Unranked ------> C+
I think it deserves a C ranking, if anything. mega Absol and Espeon does a way better role as Magic Bounce. They are also frail, but Mega Absol is as frail as Xatu, and Espeon is more bulky on the special side (specially Cam Mind). Espeon and Mega Absol are bad defensive pokemon, but are good in ofensive presence, Xatu can't afford that.
Mega Gardevoir: B+ --------> A-
One of the main scarfer gone, two fo the few main resist of Hyper Voice with a Super effective move gone. Mega Gardevoir is a beast right now, with an acceptable 100 speed tierand his STAb pixilate Hyper Voice.
Gardevoir: C+ ----------> B-
No, in general there's little reason to run non-Mega Gardevoir right now.
Sharpedo: Arguments to drop this, citing priority, were strong. But, with the two strongest priority users gone, I'd keep it where it is. B- ------> B-
I don't comment on this.
Mega Absol: B- ------> B/B+
I agree with this. One predicted Sucker Punch (Magic Bounce helps) and you have 115 Speed. Add that 150 Base Attack and Dark STAB and this is a best. It greatly dbenefits from the two threats that were down yesterday. And no Mega Lucario means less competition for the Mega slot.
Espeon: C+ ------> B-
One threat of over 110 Speed with a Dark type move gone. One of the few pofensive Uturn gone. It's buffed. Espeom is surprisingly good at abusing his Special Attack stats, and it's useful for offensive teams.
Absol: Unranked --------> D
No.
Liepard: Does the same thing as Klefki, and isn't ruined by U-turns AS much now that Genesect is gone. C- ------> Unranked -------> D
Iffy.
Mega Medicham: B+ --------> A-
I agree with that. Psychic is less a liability right now and now Fighting types are more rare in the metagame. Mega Medicham is the best Fighting abuser oif the meta alongside Conkeldurr.
Lucario: Now it has no competition from its mega form. B- -------> B
I agree. However, Lucario is not that good without the Mega The 22 speed it loses means that it'soutspeed by many offensive threats. and adaptability give a 1.33 boost tohis STAB that now doesn't have.
Tornadus Therian: It no longer has to compete with Genesect as a pivot. It also won't get recked by Ice Beams/Thunderbolts from Genesect. B ------> A-
A- is too mcuh Tornadus-T is really nerfed by the rain nerf.
Yes... this point has been made already. The past few pages have been talking about this exact thing.
Regarding finncent1's list, I'd like to discuss Celebi. While Celebi loves not having to worry about Megaluke and Genesect, I feel as if it's nerfs still hold it down too much. It was a child of the metagame in Gen V- it could counter both rain and the many Fighting-types of OU, especially Breloom and Keldeo. However, this gen is less in it's favor. No rain and fewer fighting-types (although they are still fairly dominant) means there is less incentive to put Celebi on a team to patch holes, and it's nothing but bait for Aegislash and Talonflame. It's weaknesses have become more common, and it's resistances have become rarer. Finally, it has serious competition from Mega Venusaur and Assault Vest Tangrowth.
Of course, Celebi still has many of it's advantages from last gen. Water and Fighting resistances are still invaluable, and Celebi's wide movepool is great- Stealth Rock, U-Turn, Earth Power, STABs, Nasty Plot, the list goes on. It has that mono-100 stat distribution which gifts it great versatility. However, it has not gained anything from the Gen shift.
Celebi has been improved by having several threats removed, but all the problems that landed it it's current placing on the list remain. As of right now I can't see it rise much at all as a result of the ban.
The current srank mon list isn't small at all compared to the previous ones
s rank is fine right now. We don't need a repeat of uu last gen when there were like 8 s rank mons.
It may be. I didn't participate in discussions last en (just played really) so the size was just curious thing to me. Course I was freaked out by the size the B rank was getting so, ya, you never know.
Genesect and Mega-Lucario were just 2 of the many problems Celebi has right now. Aegislash and Talonflame both still take a dump on it. Knock Off is everywhere and extremely spammable, especially on fighting types which Celebi is supposed to be stopping. With Mega Lucario banned, it's only going to rise the amount of Megazards and Mega Pinsirs to threaten setting up on Celebi. It's worth noting that Celebi does stop Rotom-W cold, and one of it's favorite partners in Genesect is gone now..but I agree that Celebi has too many issues to rise right now.
I brought this up about ten pages ago but it seemed to slip by the wayside. Breloom for C Rank. Breloom is just not very good at the moment. Spore was greatly nerfed meaning that it has several foolproof counters in Mega Venusaur, Celebi, and Gourgeist, and the inability to freely put something to sleep means that it rarely finds a safe opportunity to set up an SD or a Sub. If sleep clause is activated then the list of hard counters is far larger, including very common Pokemon such as Aegislash, Latias, Skarmory, Dragonite, and Mandibuzz (probably more but that's just a few from the top of my head). Rock Tomb is nice for coverage, but Breloom's very low speed means it has to hit its targets on the switch. It also has several excellent checks that are also extremely common, namely Thundurus, Talonflame, and Mega Pinsir.
The fact that Breloom can't ever come close to breaking stall teams while still having a huge amount of very common counters and checks in offensive teams are "crippling flaws" in my opinion, which makes Breloom C Rank material.
The fact that Breloom can't ever come close to breaking stall teams while still having a huge amount of very common counters and checks in offensive teams are "crippling flaws" in my opinion, which makes Breloom C Rank material.
Breloom is versatile though. I have seen SubSeed with Poison Heal on Breloom which honestly worked out pretty well.
Focus Sash Breloom counters Talonflame, Thundurus, and Mega Pinsir. While Dragonite gets outspend and Spore + 2-3 Rock Tombs should KO.
And Skarmory isn't a counter.
+2 252 Atk Technician Breloom Force Palm vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 169-201 (50.5 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Breloom actually forces out a lot of switches thnx to powerful priority, Spore, and good typing.
Scarf Breloom is a real thing too. While SubPunch and Substitute + Power-up punch sets are still usable.
And I figured a way to counter Gourgiest, Celebi, Aegislash, and Latios (On the switch) if either of the conditions are correct 1) you have SD, or 2) noobdy is put to sleep. You have to have condition #1 against Celebi and Gourgiest.
+2 252 Atk Dread Plate Breloom Fling (90 BP) vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 472-556 (119.1 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Dread Plate Breloom Fling (90 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 330-390 (101.8 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Dread Plate Breloom Fling (90 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 294-348 (78.6 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Dread Plate Breloom Fling (90 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 566-668 (187.4 - 221.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Dread Plate Breloom Fling (90 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 514-606 (170.1 - 200.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Latios and Latias should be hit with Spore or Fling on the switch to work. Regardless, Aegislash could be countered by Breloom.
It's quite gimmicky I know. But it works.
LOL not so fast. It isn't because MLucario and Genesect got the boot that everything else will be more viable. By your logic, we should add Cacturne and Exeggutor since Gene can't U-turn on them anymore and MLucario can't Fighting STAB / Crunch / Dark Pulse (even though Flash Cannon >). But wait, they're not the only things that threaten them. It's the same situation as the way you posted Celebi and MMedicham, as there are STILL things that keep them at bay like Aegisash, MPinsir and Talonflame. I agree that with the bans some Pokemon MAY get better, but it's not like MLucario and Genesect were the only existant counters to them.Here's a short list so far. Discussion on these pokemon is highly encouraged:
Quagsire: With the one non-grass physical attacker that it couldn't check out of the way, M-Lucario, Quagsire has gotten better defensively. C ---> C+/B-
Crawdaunt: Crawdaunt used to find it very hard to deal with T-bolts and Uturns from genesect and fighting moves from M-lucario. C+ -------> B-
Gardevoir: C+ ----------> B-
Also Delphox sucks, and Klefki has more things to do aside from being an annoying shit, unlike Liepard.
I'm pretty sure Delphox will stay UU. Psychic/Fire is a horrible defensive typing and a "meh" offensive one these days. If this were Gen 3 or 4 this thing would probably be OU but 104 speed isn't all that impressive unless you're packing a base 155 attack stat and your primary STAB is at 199 freakin' base power.
Delphox's niche as a trickster and item thief is already better covered by Rotom, The Latis, and just about every other Trick mon in the tier. Also, it's magician ability only activates if someone strikes delphox, and the thing is very frail on the physical side. And as the final nail in the coffin, Delphy is weak to Stealth Cock...I mean Rock.
God, I hate SR...
Anyway, I don't believe Delphox should be ranked as OU because it has glaring flaws and there are other pokemon that can fill it's niche better.
Delphox's niche as a trickster and item thief is already better covered by Rotom, The Latis, and just about every other Trick mon in the tier. Also, it's magician ability only activates if someone strikes delphox, and the thing is very frail on the physical side. And as the final nail in the coffin, Delphy is weak to Stealth Cock...I mean Rock.
God, I hate SR...
Anyway, I don't believe Delphox should be ranked as OU because it has glaring flaws and there are other pokemon that can fill it's niche better.
I want to personally emphasize this post because a lot of people are following with the theory of Genesect and Lucarionite...
For example physical walls like Hippowdon and Skarmory have done nothing but improved with this transition. Skarmory was merely a check at best to physical Mega Lucero and Genesect sucked because of Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, or Blaze Kick. The disappearance of Genesect and Lucarionite have done nothing but improved many Pokemon while negatively affecting a few (in general it is more team specific than Pokemon specific as Volt Turn lost a lot of power).
While I don't think delphox should be ranked you are thinking of pickpocket there. magician works when you hit the opponent.
Ahh my bad, early morning ya know. XD
First off, can we, as a group, stop making gigantic lists of Pokemon to discuss simultaneously? It's already hard enough to discuss everything people bring up without lists of 10-20 mons being brought up on top of that. I know a lot of people's nominations and suggestions are falling to the wayside because we aren't really well-focused, and while stopping those lists won't fix anything, it'll improve our ability to have meaningful discussion. I like being able to go really in-depth about Pokemon when I talk about them (as do a lot of others, I think,) and that's made much harder when, instead of 2-3 topics being discussed well, there are 10-20 topics being discussed in little detail.
I won't make a fuss if people keep making these lists, but I'd like to make the suggestion nonetheless.
Anyway, onto Breloom.
Breloom definitely has it much harder this gen, with Grass-types (most notably Mega Venusaur,) ignoring Spore and the sleep mechanics going back to normal. Sleep is much, much easier to play around these days, and even if you get hit with Spore, it's not like that Pokemon isn't coming back. There was also the buff to Overcoat, which, while fairly uncommon, means Overcoat Mandibuzz has no problem coming in on Spore either.
There's also the issue of what other Pokemon stop Breloom. As was said earlier, he suffers from low speed and frailty issues; Breloom's only good stat is Attack. While Breloom is pretty good at causing switches, the answers brought in often make it a moot point. Outside of gimmick strategies, Breloom just can't take on some big threats, notably Grass-types that aren't weak to Force Palm. Breloom needs to be at +6 to have a chance to OHKO Venusaur, who has no problem OHKOing back.
That said, Breloom does have some really nifty options available to it. Poison Heal sets still work, making it a viable subseeder or subpuncher. However, these sets are arguably inferior to Technician sets, as they are stopped more easily and don't carry the raw power SD Technician sets do. Furthermore, many Pokemon that can stop one set can stop the others. Mega Venusaur, Celebi and the Grass/Ghosts don't really care what set Breloom's running, for example.
While I'd be okay with Breloom staying where he is, I think dropping him somewhere in C Rank is very reasonable. His weaknesses make him hard to use, and there are often better choices for the roles he can play.
I won't make a fuss if people keep making these lists, but I'd like to make the suggestion nonetheless.
Anyway, onto Breloom.
Breloom definitely has it much harder this gen, with Grass-types (most notably Mega Venusaur,) ignoring Spore and the sleep mechanics going back to normal. Sleep is much, much easier to play around these days, and even if you get hit with Spore, it's not like that Pokemon isn't coming back. There was also the buff to Overcoat, which, while fairly uncommon, means Overcoat Mandibuzz has no problem coming in on Spore either.
There's also the issue of what other Pokemon stop Breloom. As was said earlier, he suffers from low speed and frailty issues; Breloom's only good stat is Attack. While Breloom is pretty good at causing switches, the answers brought in often make it a moot point. Outside of gimmick strategies, Breloom just can't take on some big threats, notably Grass-types that aren't weak to Force Palm. Breloom needs to be at +6 to have a chance to OHKO Venusaur, who has no problem OHKOing back.
That said, Breloom does have some really nifty options available to it. Poison Heal sets still work, making it a viable subseeder or subpuncher. However, these sets are arguably inferior to Technician sets, as they are stopped more easily and don't carry the raw power SD Technician sets do. Furthermore, many Pokemon that can stop one set can stop the others. Mega Venusaur, Celebi and the Grass/Ghosts don't really care what set Breloom's running, for example.
While I'd be okay with Breloom staying where he is, I think dropping him somewhere in C Rank is very reasonable. His weaknesses make him hard to use, and there are often better choices for the roles he can play.
Suicune has been added to B rank, Machamp to C+, and Snorlax to C.
Now that most viable Pokemon in OU have been ranked, it's time to take a different approach with this thread. Each week or so, we will be focusing on specific ranks to talk about, and whether the Pokemon there should be dropped or promoted. We will start with the higher ranks and eventually go down all the way to D rank. So let's start with S and A+ ranks. You can discuss about anything that you want to see moved up or down in those ranks, but remember to back it up with good arguments, as always.
Only S and A+ rank Pokemon discussion for now guys, posts about other Pokemon will be deleted.
Now that most viable Pokemon in OU have been ranked, it's time to take a different approach with this thread. Each week or so, we will be focusing on specific ranks to talk about, and whether the Pokemon there should be dropped or promoted. We will start with the higher ranks and eventually go down all the way to D rank. So let's start with S and A+ ranks. You can discuss about anything that you want to see moved up or down in those ranks, but remember to back it up with good arguments, as always.
Only S and A+ rank Pokemon discussion for now guys, posts about other Pokemon will be deleted.
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Venusaur needs to be moved down to A+ rank. Being able to handle Mega Lucario was one of the biggest selling points to using Venusaur, and now that's it's not around it's certainly not S rank in my opinion. I just don't think Venusaur is metagame defining to be S rank material.
Rotom-W needs to be moved up to S rank. You can just slap Rotom-W on nearly any team and it will always do well, just because it checks so many dangerous threats like Talonflame and Pinsir. It also offers basically any team great utility in the form of Volt Switch and Will-O-Wisp. Right now, a big percentage of the metagame is all about removing / weakening Rotom-W for your Pinsir or Talonflame to sweep, and keeping Rotom-W healthy is often the difference between winning and losing a game.
That's all I really have to say so far about S / A rank Pokes.
Rotom-W needs to be moved up to S rank. You can just slap Rotom-W on nearly any team and it will always do well, just because it checks so many dangerous threats like Talonflame and Pinsir. It also offers basically any team great utility in the form of Volt Switch and Will-O-Wisp. Right now, a big percentage of the metagame is all about removing / weakening Rotom-W for your Pinsir or Talonflame to sweep, and keeping Rotom-W healthy is often the difference between winning and losing a game.
That's all I really have to say so far about S / A rank Pokes.
If psychics become less of a 'liability' and are found more often, I could definitely agree with knocking Venu down one rank. However, seeing as flying types certainly won't gain popularity... Well, Charizard-Y will, but his main selling point is that massive fire spam.
In all honesty, I think Lucario-mega leaving may just make Venusaur-mega that much harder to break.
In all honesty, I think Lucario-mega leaving may just make Venusaur-mega that much harder to break.
pinsir. it kind of lost some major competition
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