Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[TooMuchSugar]

You're wrong. It was A-ranked. SR weakness and an over dependancy on Rain always prevented it from being S. Also, that description is simply incorrect, and has failed to be rectified. Identifying suspects is completely separate from the goal of this thread.

Jirachi on the other hand, WAS an S Rank Poke, but never a suspect-- and Rotom-W in XY is FAR more valuable, and FAR more powerful/viable than Jirachi in BW...

Sorry about the confusion with the whole suspects thing, I guess I was wrong about Torn. It's interesting that suspects don't actually have to come from S-rank.

I don't doubt you about the comparison between Rachi and Rotom-W, just tell me why =). I made a case for why Jirachi was better, and if you disagree please make your own case for the opposite side rather than just saying that I'm wrong. I have a pretty open mind about the whole thing and recognize that you have way more experience than me, I just want to see the evidence.

 

[Mood4food77]

well for once, rachi never reached 40% usage...EVER
jirachi also didn't cripple practically ever physical user with one move
jirachi's typing wasn't as anti-meta as rotom-w's is right now
jirachi didn't get a direct buff like rotom-w did (it was indirectly buff thanks to all the new threats, rotom-w got the immunity to twave and wisp buff)
jirachi was weak to EQ, rotom is immune to it outside of mold breaker pokemon

that's all i got

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I like Rotom for S rank, mostly because its the only pokemon that I find viable in all three capacities. Its got a strong argument for being the best support pokemon. It's got pretty good defenses, known for using items like leftovers and chesto berries to heal, and has an amazing typing/ability that gives it plenty of resistances and only 1 (2 if you count mold breaker EQ's) weakness that is uncommon, so it's a viable defensive pokemon, even if that's not what you'd choose it for. It is even helpful offensively, as Hydro Pump and Volt Switch let it deal decent damage to a lot of threats. If that doesn't cover the "can easily perform multiple roles effectively," I don't know what does.

Lucario is good because its typing makes it not defensively inept, and it can run either physical or special sweeping sets to make it unpredictable. Once you know if its physical or special or mixed, that unpredictability is useless (even if its often too late to do anything about it). Rotom is always a supportive (is that an acceptable way to use that word?), defensive, and offensive threat.

Note, this is just one reason I support Rotom for S. I also second most of the earlier statements, specifically by Chou.

 

[Chou Toshio]

What makes Rotom-W a real challenge to handle is that nothing can really switch into it effectively-- not consistently anyway. As a support Pokemon, or a tank, this is a unique and defining characteristic not shared by Jirachi, Heatran, Mega Venu, or any other defensive Pokemon.

It just has to do with how its attacks line up type-wise.

Volt Switch provides STAB, so it's chip damage opponents can't really laugh off-- but if your Rotom counter gets hit by it as it switches in, they immediately get to switch to a counter. This is totally different from say, Jirachi's U-turn or Celebi's Baton Pass because Volt Switch isn't being used as a predictor, but one of Rotom's best go-to attacks that it will use to check its own targets (especially in this meta, where those targets are mostly flying types), and does significant damage. So to truly be said to be a good Rotom-W switch-in, you almost have to be IMMUNE to Electric, as opposed to just resist it or be able to shrug it off.

Moreover W-o-W's burn is a nuisance to the majority of enemies, especially potential switch-ins, so immunity to it is preferred as well (unless you're going to try and constantly heal it off all battle).

However whether it's electric immune Ground-types or Burn-immune Fire-types, both take a beating from Rotom's other STAB-- Hydro Pump. Even for the odd Ground-type immune to water attacks, they have basically no way of hurting Rotom-W back... Hidden Power Grass Gastrodon, lol

Throw in the truly threatening risk of Trick (which often cannot be scouted easily due to the popularity of Chesto berry), and you're facing a real challenge into switching into this thing-- far more than any other defensive force in the meta. By the way, the threat of Trick is one reason that makes Chesto Berry so good on Rotom-W specifically, and why Chesto Rest is seen on Rotom and not nearly as much on other Pokemon.

Rotom's attacks and typing fit so well together that there basically is no answer-- and the metagame has moved along just "enduring" rotom's assault because there's no way to actually prepare for it well.

Frankly, I wouldn't even mind seeing Rotom-W suspected.
edit: (though obviously, not until after a whole bunch of other things got banned, including the A+ ranked Talonflame, and Rotom-W's ban would probably make Lando-I just broken)

 

[TaBuu]

I agree 100% with what Chou Toshio wrote. Except the suspect part lol. Rotom Wash is definitely a defining Pokemon in Generation VI but being ban-worthy is a whole different story in itself

 

[TooMuchSugar]

What makes Rotom-W a real challenge to handle is that nothing can really switch into it effectively-- not consistently anyway. As a support Pokemon, or a tank, this is a unique and defining characteristic not shared by Jirachi, Heatran, Mega Venu, or any other defensive Pokemon.

It just has to do with how its attacks line up type-wise.

Volt Switch provides STAB, so it's chip damage opponents can't really laugh off-- but if your Rotom counter gets hit by it as it switches in, they immediately get to switch to a counter. This is totally different from say, Jirachi's U-turn or Celebi's Baton Pass because Volt Switch isn't being used as a predictor, but one of Rotom's best go-to attacks that it will use to check its own targets (especially in this meta, where those targets are mostly flying types), and does significant damage. So to truly be said to be a good Rotom-W switch-in, you almost have to be IMMUNE to Electric, as opposed to just resist it or be able to shrug it off.

Moreover W-o-W's burn is a nuisance to the majority of enemies, especially potential switch-ins, so immunity to it is preferred as well (unless you're going to try and constantly heal it off all battle).

However whether it's electric immune Ground-types or Burn-immune Fire-types, both take a beating from Rotom's other STAB-- Hydro Pump. Even for the odd Ground-type immune to water attacks, they have basically no way of hurting Rotom-W back... Hidden Power Grass Gastrodon, lol

Throw in the truly threatening risk of Trick (which often cannot be scouted easily due to the popularity of Chesto berry), and you're facing a real challenge into switching into this thing-- far more than any other defensive force in the meta. By the way, the threat of Trick is one reason that makes Chesto Berry so good on Rotom-W specifically, and why Chesto Rest is seen on Rotom and not nearly as much on other Pokemon.

Rotom's attacks and typing fit so well together that there basically is no answer-- and the metagame has moved along just "enduring" rotom's assault because there's no way to actually prepare for it well.

Frankly, I wouldn't even mind seeing Rotom-W suspected.
edit: (though obviously, not until after a whole bunch of other things got banned, including the A+ ranked Talonflame, and Rotom-W's ban would probably make Lando-I just broken)

Okay, you've got me. The difficulty in switching in is really what does it for me because I have first-hand experience there in all my teams - even when I specifically pick something to switch into Rotom-W, it's at best "this might work out okay". I don't know that it's ban worthy, but I can now honestly say that I can see it in S-rank.

 

[alexwolf]

Added sprites for the Pokemon i could find. If you find the correct sprite for the missing ones, PM them to me!

 

[Salemance]

Added sprites for the Pokemon i could find. If you find the correct sprite for the missing ones, PM them to me!

Only thing I can ask is if for the mega ranked ones (like Charizard) should the sprites be the megas? A minor nitpick, but just curious.

 

[Shroomisaur]

Honestly I'm pretty shocked that Rotom-W isn't S-rank already. It's #1 mon in OU for a reason: Rotom-W combines an excellent typing, a great stat distribution, and adds in a wonderful utility movepool. It certainly "walls" a good number of Pokemon in OU (it's more of a tank than a wall) and unlike many other defensive Pokemon, Rotom never gives up momentum thanks to solid offenses, WoW, and Volt Switch. It's a perfect example of a bulky pivot, which is why it works so well on many different teams.

It can do so much that Rotom-W feels like a "one stop shop" answer for many teams, and it always pulls its weight. Rotom-W is the most common Pokemon on my Showdown teams and I've never regretted that choice in any case. Specially defensive, physically defensive, Choice sets w/Trick, even dual screens are all excellent depending on the needs of your team. The lack of reliable recovery is obviously its biggest flaw, but that's not enough to keep Rotom-W from being worthy of S rank.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Only thing I can ask is if for the mega ranked ones (like Charizard) should the sprites be the megas? A minor nitpick, but just curious.

I would actually prefer a viability list where Pokemon were listed as their base formes, not as megas. The reason is because even for Charizard (who has 2 different formes), the existence of both formes adds to the effectiveness of both. Not knowing whether it's going to be X or Y is an issue. Like-wise, the effectiveness of base form Chomp definitely makes Mega Chomp more useful, and Gyara/Mega Gyara also benefit from each other; as do TTar/Mega Tar.

Discussing a Pokemon's viability without talking about its potential mega evolution is absurd, while discussing a mega evolution's ability independent from its base forme (which it is inevitably tied to since it has to start off in it) makes even less sense.

Honestly, the list would just make more sense if mega formes were purely treated as items, and had nothing to do with this list. Though I brought this point up in the moderator discussion about this thread and it was completely ignored, so...

It's not a big deal either way though.

 

[Salemance]

I would actually prefer a viability list where Pokemon were listed as their base formes, not as megas. The reason is because even for Charizard (who has 2 different formes), the existence of both formes adds to the effectiveness of both. Not knowing whether it's going to be X or Y is an issue. Like-wise, the effectiveness of base form Chomp definitely makes Mega Chomp more useful, and Gyara/Mega Gyara also benefit from each other; as do TTar/Mega Tar.

Discussing a Pokemon's viability without talking about its potential mega evolution is absurd, while discussing a mega evolution's ability independent from its base forme (which it is inevitably tied to since it has to start off in it) makes even less sense.

Honestly, the list would just make more sense if mega formes were purely treated as items, and had nothing to do with this list. Though I brought this point up in the moderator discussion about this thread and it was completely ignored, so...

It's not a big deal either way though.

Believe me, we've discussed this several times before and at the moment it got nowhere ( I think it was 20 or 30 pages ago? I'm not too sure). With Megas, there was a fine line of what should be ranked as base or non, what should be below it, and at one point someone said it warranted a whole separate discussion by itself. It was going in all kinds of odd angles.

There was stuff that could very well become S rank due to its mega in some regards (predicting Char X or Char Y) or some that we had put Mega Dos below Gyarados that shut be put together and so on.

There was a lot of talk on it, but was shut down as we quickly derailed it to the point of forgetting of rankings.

 

[Colonel M]

Someone mentioned Honchkrow a couple pages back.

I don't see what really stimulates someone to use it. I guess it helps that it has two nice immunities, but the slew of weaknesses and low defensive stats make it shaky to switch in. Furthermore, it is very prone to a lot of priority such as Brave Bird from Talonflame. It seems really hard to justify its use... though I admit it is slightly enticing with Sucker Punch and Moxie to abuse weakened Pokemon waiting to be sacked.

 

[Salemance]

Someone mentioned Honchkrow a couple pages back.

I don't see what really stimulates someone to use it. I guess it helps that it has two nice immunities, but the slew of weaknesses and low defensive stats make it shaky to switch in. Furthermore, it is very prone to a lot of priority such as Brave Bird from Talonflame. It seems really hard to justify its use... though I admit it is slightly enticing with Sucker Punch and Moxie to abuse weakened Pokemon waiting to be sacked.

Then ya have the unfortunate side effect of Sucker Punch not working if they attack before. While easy to work around, its still worth mentioning.

If you were to rank it, I wouldn't know how to put it in comparison to Staraptor. As the two are similar with Brave Bird with powerful fighting move, but they differ in the fact of Staraptor being a stronger Brave Bird user with arguably better fighting type move where Honchkrow has the ability to beat Aegislash, which is big when talking bout these Brave Bird users.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Added sprites for the Pokemon i could find. If you find the correct sprite for the missing ones, PM them to me!

Just a nitpick; you added Chansey's sprite for Clefable.

 

[alexwolf]

Just a nitpick; you added Chansey's sprite for Clefable.

Fixed, thx!

 

[DiscoDucky]

Then ya have the unfortunate side effect of Sucker Punch not working if they attack before. While easy to work around, its still worth mentioning.

If you were to rank it, I wouldn't know how to put it in comparison to Staraptor. As the two are similar with Brave Bird with powerful fighting move, but they differ in the fact of Staraptor being a stronger Brave Bird user with arguably better fighting type move where Honchkrow has the ability to beat Aegislash, which is big when talking bout these Brave Bird users.

Building on to that, what really separates Krow from Staraptor or even Talonflame is its pretty decent Mixed stats. Whereas Staraptor and Talonflame are relagated to being walled on the Physical side of things, Honchkrow somewhat bypasses that with Heat Wave coming off of a Base 105 with Life Orb, making it a barely decent wallbreaker and Revenge killer with Moxie.

However, you could try running ScarfKrow, which bypasses the whole "slow priority issue". Jolly ScarfKrow outspeeds base 130s so at that point he becomes the fastest priority bar Extremespeed, and much like MoxieMence spamming Outrage, MoxieKrow just spams Sucker Punch once all of the defensive threats and anything that doesn't use a non-attacking move are gone. It's still risky though, so it's viable, but unreliable.

But putting that aside, it's pretty bad in this meta. Most Priority users out-priority it and it's neither fast nor bulky enough to take on OU's offensive meta. Nominating this for D rank.

 

[ensurdagen]

What makes Rotom-W a real challenge to handle is that nothing can really switch into it effectively-- not consistently anyway.

I'll point out again, Gastrodon can consistently check/counter Rotom-W. Gastrodon walls a similar portion of the metagame, with better recovery. Gastrodon can use Toxic on Rotom-W, and stall it out while rolling to burn whatever switches in--Hidden Power: Grass Gastrodon as a Rotom-W check is a ridiculous idea, all you need is Toxic and Scald/Ice Beam. Pain split doesn't cut it, wasting a Rotom-W's Chesto is a major success, and Gastrodon happily gets burnt and still wins if it gets hit with Toxic too. Trickscarf is a threat, sure, but there are a lot of pokemon that can do that--a more unpredictable example being Klefki.

 

[zachmac]

I'll point out again, Gastrodon can consistently check/counter Rotom-W. Gastrodon walls a similar portion of the metagame, with better recovery. Gastrodon can use Toxic on Rotom-W, and stall it out while rolling to burn whatever switches in--Hidden Power: Grass Gastrodon as a Rotom-W check is a ridiculous idea, all you need is Toxic and Scald/Ice Beam. Trickscarf is a threat, sure, but there are a lot of pokemon that can do that.

Not only has Gastrodon grown out of fashion with the fall of rain, which it's main niche was checking, but also, that's only one pokemon. The difference it makes isn't so huge.

 

[ensurdagen]

Not only has Gastrodon grown out of fashion with the fall of rain, which it's main niche was checking, but also, that's only one pokemon. The difference it makes isn't so huge.

That doesn't change the fact that Chou is embellishing Rotom-W's usefulness and literally making things up, like Gastrodon needing hidden power grass to kill Rotom-W and nothing being able to consistently switch into it.

 

[zachmac]

That doesn't change the fact that Chou is embellishing Rotom-W's usefulness and literally making things up, like Gastrodon needing hidden power grass to kill Rotom-W and nothing being able to consistently switch into it.

Oh, I suppose he did made a mistake, but for the most part, his argument still stands. I figured you were arguing about Rotom-W's position.

And ChestoRest has actually been growing in popularity, probably with the new sleep mechanics, though it can only really save itself from poison once.

 

[Chou Toshio]

You're both being ridiculous if you think I made a mistake. My point was that Gastrodon is a joke of a check for Rotom-W. HP Grass was a joke, you should get the humor.

First:
1) It gets burned by Will-o-Wisp
2) It can do NOTHING against Rotom-W. Toxic is the worst it can do, which is ridiculous because it means Gastrodon can't do ANYTHING lasting to Rest Rotom-W.
3) Trick DOES wreck Gastrodon...
4) Even if you say that Toxic Gastrodon can "check" Rotom-W, Gastrodon is literally fodder against so much of the meta-- for every single Grass-type, all of which can switch into Toxic like it's nothing. Mega Venusaur totally fodderizes Gastrodon, and Mega Venu is one of Rotom's best defensive compliments.
This is the defining difference between a great bulky Water, Rotom-W, and a terrible bulky water like Gastrodon-- Rotom-W is fodder for nothing, especially nothing good in the metagame, where as Gastrodon is fodder for a great majority of the meta, including some of its best Pokemon

While you scratch the bottom of the barrel to find something that can even remotely check Rotom-W effectively--never mind being viable in OU-- Rotom-W could easily switch out of Gastrodon into any of numerous Pokemon who'd love a chance to beat ass against Gastrodon or its teammates and switches easily into Toxic.

The point is Gastrodon is a flimsy check at best to Rotom-W, while it has almost no utility otherwise. There's literally no reason to even use a Gastrodon in this meta outside of it being a somewhat-ok check to Thundurus-I/T (but still getting wrecked by any Grass Knot variant and taking hefty blows from Focus Blast).

 

[Chev]

Let's get some view points not comparing 2 pokemon, but comparing a pokemon's worth to what it does in that role, and not compared to what others' do in that role. Just because Rotom-W is so good, doesn't mean that literally every single person is utilizing him, or that just because Talonflame is great doesn't mean that everyone has him either. Look at the pokemon for its merit, or we will just end up getting in another flame war...

 

[Chou Toshio]

We really shouldn't have needed to have discussed Gastrodon. The points of Gastrodon's relevance to Rotom-W as a check or as a rival are all so ridiculous and trivial that it shouldn't have even needed to brought up at all-- to the point where I'd even consider deleting my and the others comments on the subject. All of it has pretty much nothing to do with Rotom-W's performance level. You might as well be bringing up Lanturn-- it'd be the same thing.

 

[Chev]

But Lanturn does have his uses. Not nearly as well as Rotom-W, nor the same role, but he does perform. I have used one with some decent outcomes, although his Def usually lets him down on the set I run. He just isn't nearly bulky enough all around, and lacks levitate.

If anything I'd say that Gastrodon, Lanturn, and alter forms of Rotom all have a reason to be in OU. But they are not for any reason A or B rank. They may peak a C, C+, but mostly will be showing face when people have a distinct need for such a mon on their team.

 

[Chou Toshio]

The point is that trying to say "[Gastrodon/Lanturn] can switch into Rotom! You're wrong to say that nothing effectively can!" is ridiculous, and someone saying that is either not serious about OU, or clearly doesn't understand the argument.