Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Aragorn the King]

Okay so now that the two S rank monsters (Venu and Char Y respectively) have been agreed on to staying, lets move on to the guy who is asking for ua to promote a poke...

Overhyped-W (hmm, i seem so biased there) has a few flaws that make him susceptible to staying in A+ rank. He lacks a form of reliable recovery.

Does he have Chesto+Rest? Yes (seriously though, if that's your recovery, then that ain't right) but he loses that coveted Lefties to get a one-off, and is forced to stay asleep two turns after using rest the second time. Does it fix his toxic ailment? Sure, but he is set up bait at that point.

Then he gets Pain Split, and while a base 65 HP stat makes it usable to great extent, you will be forced in a predicament of having an opponent keep a low health poke just to give it more as you go for a crucial heal. Is Pain Split usable? Hell of a lot more than Chesto, but can get so played around.

Then you have that its susceptible to all forms of residual damage (bar spikes). Now residual damage is not a large argument by itself, but as it is taking lots of hits with no reliable way to get its health back, then it may be.

I may be wrong, but I do not believe it has earned S rank (22% usage be damned).

Thanks for the nice seg-way to my post. I thought it was going to get buried in Charizards. Anway, I hate Rotom-W so much, and part of the reason I hate it so much is because how effective it is. I'd never argue its worth as S rank if I didn't think it belong there (I'm not saying that you said I would or anything...)

The problem with it is that you don't know what it's going to have in its set. You could send it Blissey to take the obvious special hit, but then have it trick you a choice item. You could send in Gastrodon to be immune to everything, but then have it burn you, trick you, or use you for its subsplit tactics. However, I believe chesto rest is the most dangerous, and most annoying, as as soon as you bring it down to, say, 14%, it can come in when there's a free turn and be back to full health. All that damage you did to it was worthless. Rotom is more of a bulky offensive pivot than a wall, so no completely reliable recovery isn't a complete hindrance. If it had Recover I'd push for it to be banned, but right now with all of its possible sets, its extreme over-usage, and its ability to warp the metagame into countering it show it should be S ranked.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Goddamnit WE DID THIS FOR LIKE 9 PAGES CAN WE STOP THIS ALREADY.

We "did" it then has nothing to the point of "doing it now". The game changes, the meta changes. I also fully agree that Venu was an S tier Pokemon until this last set of bans. Furthermore, I DIDN'T expect Venusaur to be much effected because-- as you mentioned-- there are a lot of other things it walls well, and it wasn't a perfect counter to Luke anyway (though you have to admit it was one of the best ones).

It's not that Venu can't wall the things that it's always walled, but rather the problem that those Pokemon it CAN'T wall are taking a dominant position in the meta.

I know what you mean but it doesnt realy apply here imo. Its not like the meta is going to shift heavily towards Psychic and Flying types in the form that more of them become viable. At most some of the pokes that used to beat venu will become a little more popular and its not like they havent been used before the ban, stuff like Pinsir and Talonflame were all over the place from the beginning. I dont see any new checks/counters to venu come up because of the banns.

The meta has ALREADY shifted more towards psychic and flying-types. If you play on the ladder now you'll notice it-- with luke gone, Pinsir and Charizard are undoubtedly the most common and most powerful Megas. Talonfame's usage is sky-rocketing, not only because of the gap left by luke, but also because of the synergy with the increasingly popular pinsir (so-called "dual bird")-- and ironically, talonflame and Pinsir's success is pulling up Staraptor as well. Add in the very useful Togekiss and Tornadus-T, and you'd be blind not to realize that Flying is a defining attacking type in this meta.

Latios/Latias/Greninja/Starmie use Psychic coverage with increasing frequency, as do Pokemon like Landorus-I, Thundurus-I and even Manaphy (+3 Manaphy Psychic one-shots Venu with ease). Even Medicham is getting a boost for players who want a more powerful Fighting-type in Luke's wake, and Cham is undoubtedly the most destructive.

The metagame has evolved since Venu originally got its S rank and continues to evolve. While I definitely think Venu is a top-class poke, and would be fine recognizing it keeping that S position, I can't help but question it-- from USING mega Venu I know it's not as useful as it used to be.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Dragon Pulse actually has 85 base power, which becomes 170 against a super effective opponent. This means that Dragon Pulse hits about 37.4% harder against Dragons than a Sun-boosted Fire Blast would, which is a pretty significant difference.

EDIT: Greninjas. Greninjas everywhere.

My bad.

Still, it retains the same 2HKOs save for Mega Charizard X, and it does not get any new OHKOs either.

 

[jacyk]

Kyurem-B sets up Sub and laughs at offensive Rotom, all Rotom can do to Venusaur is burn it then die or run away, Latios slaps it around, Conkeldurr gets stronger from burn and takes nothing from attacks...

Rotom is good at what it does but it gets checked by a third of the metagame, there's no way that's S tier

 

[Aragorn the King]

It always has the ability to volt switch to a counter to the counters you mentioned. You can volt switch to TTar, and then you've trapped Latios. Volt Switch to Gardevoir, and Venusaur, Kyurem-B, and Conkeldurr will be forced out. The viability of Rotom-W isn't limited to what it can do alone, but also with what its attacks can do to benefit its team.

 

[Monte Cristo]

We "did" it then has nothing to the point of "doing it now". The game changes, the meta changes. I also fully agree that Venu was an S tier Pokemon until this last set of bans. Furthermore, I DIDN'T expect Venusaur to be much effected because-- as you mentioned-- there are a lot of other things it walls well, and it wasn't a perfect counter to Luke anyway (though you have to admit it was one of the best ones).

It's not that Venu can't wall the things that it's always walled, but rather the problem that those Pokemon it CAN'T wall are taking a dominant position in the meta.



The meta has ALREADY shifted more towards psychic and flying-types. If you play on the ladder now you'll notice it-- with luke gone, Pinsir and Charizard are undoubtedly the most common and most powerful Megas. Talonfame's usage is sky-rocketing, not only because of the gap left by luke, but also because of the synergy with the increasingly popular pinsir (so-called "dual bird")-- and ironically, talonflame and Pinsir's success is pulling up Staraptor as well. Add in the very useful Togekiss and Tornadus-T, and you'd be blind not to realize that Flying is a defining attacking type in this meta.

Latios/Latias/Greninja/Starmie use Psychic coverage with increasing frequency, as do Pokemon like Landorus-I, Thundurus-I and even Manaphy (+3 Manaphy Psychic one-shots Venu with ease). Even Medicham is getting a boost for players who want a more powerful Fighting-type in Luke's wake, and Cham is undoubtedly the most destructive.

The metagame has evolved since Venu originally got its S rank and continues to evolve. While I definitely think Venu is a top-class poke, and would be fine recognizing it keeping that S position, I can't help but question it-- from USING mega Venu I know it's not as useful as it used to be.

Latas/latios have always used psyshock to hit things like chansey/blissey stop acting like they just started using it :/. Greninja almost never uses it wtf, starmie uses psyshock but the usage hasn't been manipulated, and the genies have still kept away from using psychic where I've been laddering, and thundurus I fials to KO sdef venu with 2 shots of LO psychic with it regardless and I don't know what you're on regarding manaphy, all I've seen is tail glow/surf/ice beam/energy ball or rest or filler. Also, pinsir and talonflame have ALWAYS been active threats to venu, them rising won't even affect venu because everybody already knows it's one of the little things it can't wall. Haven't seen much staraptor in my ladder tbh and mega saur can take on zard X just fine if it's the sleep powder defensive variation.

Overall, most things you named I found to be illegitimate, although I'm probably considered wrong by most of the OU community(probably by default too since everybody thinks I'm trash at the game) ALso, raw ladder usage alone doesn't justify anything when we have such a terrible public ladder ,imo, we should wait for antar to start rank based stats again. Plus, it's been like 1-3 days since they got the ban hammer, it's way too early to just guernetee the meta has shifted, especially without actual usage stats, let alone rank based ones.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Kyurem-B sets up Sub and laughs at offensive Rotom, all Rotom can do to Venusaur is burn it then die or run away, Latios slaps it around, Conkeldurr gets stronger from burn and takes nothing from attacks...

Rotom is good at what it does but it gets checked by a third of the metagame, there's no way that's S tier

That's not a third of the metagame, that's four of the best answers to Rotom-W. Also, keep in mind that Rotom can just Volt Switch out of any of those, which is far better than "running away" as it generates free momentum for the Rotom-W's team.

I'm pretty sure the Rotom-W argument is going to come down to how badly it gets worn down and whether its team support makes up for that. It's a close call either way, but I would keep it in A+ just because it almost always has trouble switching into the things it's supposed to for an entire battle.

 

[Salemance]

That's not a third of the metagame, that's four of the best answers to Rotom-W. Also, keep in mind that Rotom can just Volt Switch out of any of those, which is far better than "running away" as it generates free momentum for the Rotom-W's team.

I'm pretty sure the Rotom-W argument is going to come down to how badly it gets worn down and whether its team support makes up for that. It's a close call either way, but I would keep it in A+ just because it almost always has trouble switching into the things it's supposed to for an entire battle.

I can say that's what it came down to last time....

 

[Chou Toshio]

Latas/latios have always used psyshock to hit things like chansey/blissey stop acting like they just started using it :/.

The point is they still use it and still fry Venu. You haven't debuffed that. Latios and Latias are really good in this meta because Charizard / Pinsir / Talonflame are at the top, and all really need that Defog (or Spin) support.

Greninja almost never uses it wtf,

Extrasensory is definitely one of Greninja's best attacks, and the fact that it is a Water-type that ONE SHOTS Mega Venu is one of its selling points in the meta. Even during the suspect test, I had my Mega Venu's one-shot by Greninja quite often, to the point I stopped switching venu into it completely.

starmie uses psyshock but the usage hasn't been manipulated, and the genies have still kept away from using psychic where I've been laddering,

Psychic is growing in popularity on Lando-I (though it does have bad 4MSS), and I've definitely had my Venu one shot by Thundurus-I because of Psychic. Thundurus-I doesn't have the le-way to go on a nasty plot sweep in this meta (too much priority), so why WOULDN'T you carry an attack that 1-shots the one A/S rank Pokemon that "walls" you're Electric/Ice/Fighting coverage?

and thundurus I fials to KO sdef venu with 2 shots of LO psychic with it regardless

Even though the vast majority of the Pokemon Venusaur handles are physical (still)? Also the fact that Venu cannot OHKO Thundurus-I in return?

and I don't know what you're on regarding manaphy, all I've seen is tail glow/surf/ice beam/energy ball or rest or filler.

Psychic / Energy Ball / Surf / Tail Glow Manaphy is definitely a thing. It's losing a lot by passing up on Ice Beam sure, but it's definitely a thing. Lure in and smash Mega Venu and Rotom-W? Why not?

Also, pinsir and talonflame have ALWAYS been active threats to venu, them rising won't even affect venu because everybody already knows it's one of the little things it can't wall. Haven't seen much staraptor in my ladder tbh and mega saur can take on zard X just fine if it's the sleep powder defensive variation.

It affects Venu greatly when they are now the TOP and the MOST common-- it's a big change from when they were playing 2nd fiddle to Luke.

Overall, most things you named I found to be illegitimate, although I'm probably considered wrong by most of the OU community(probably by default too since everybody thinks I'm trash at the game) ALso, raw ladder usage alone doesn't justify anything when we have such a terrible public ladder ,imo, we should wait for antar to start rank based stats again. Plus, it's been like 1-3 days since they got the ban hammer, it's way too early to just guernetee the meta has shifted, especially without actual usage stats, let alone rank based ones.

Running Psychic on many of the Pokemon I mentioned is definitely not the most "efficient" coverage, but even if Venu were to become an A+ threat, that still means it's a top metagame threat. It's perfectly natural for those Pokemon it "checks" to use strategies that destroy it if they can. BECAUSE Mega Venu is A+ or better, running Psychic attacks on them is totally viable. It's a legitimate option.

While I perfectly agree that waiting to see some usage stats is not unreasonable, we ARE discussing S/A+ as the focus right now, and it's perfectly reasonable for me to bring up that from my experience, Venu is less useful than it was.

Remember, the argument is not whether or not Mega Venu is good-- everyone is fully aware that it is a top Pokemon. A+ Pokemon are top class Pokemon. The point is whether it is still a threat that deserves the highest S rank.

 

[LoDart210]

Okay so now that the two S rank monsters (Venu and Char Y respectively) have been agreed on to staying, lets move on to the guy who is asking for ua to promote a poke...

Overhyped-W (hmm, i seem so biased there) has a few flaws that make him susceptible to staying in A+ rank. He lacks a form of reliable recovery.

Does he have Chesto+Rest? Yes (seriously though, if that's your recovery, then that ain't right) but he loses that coveted Lefties to get a one-off, and is forced to stay asleep two turns after using rest the second time. Does it fix his toxic ailment? Sure, but he is set up bait at that point.

Then he gets Pain Split, and while a base 65 HP stat makes it usable to great extent, you will be forced in a predicament of having an opponent keep a low health poke just to give it more as you go for a crucial heal. Is Pain Split usable? Hell of a lot more than Chesto, but can get so played around.

Then you have that its susceptible to all forms of residual damage (bar spikes). Now residual damage is not a large argument by itself, but as it is taking lots of hits with no reliable way to get its health back, then it may be.

I may be wrong, but I do not believe it has earned S rank (22% usage be damned).

Friggin hate that washing machine as well, just when I think I know what I'm going to see, it surprises me. As much as I hate it, I have to agree. I was surprised to see it wasn't S during the initial ranking. It's only weak to grass (a very rare attacking type, if used at all) and mold breaker earthquake (nothing gets me going like mega evolving gyarados and clicking EQ!!)

That's not a lot. True there is residual damage, but few things don't fall to residual damage. Plus, it's offensive ability isn't pathetic, as opposed to some other walls.

This thing deserves S-rank, it's a tamer version of Genesect, ability to keep momentum, lots of possible recovery (1-up on Gene), and a plethora of powerful sets. It certainly isn't outclassed as a defensive mon, especially since Venusaur's throne is shaking... Medicham, Talonflame, the move Psychic (special mention of extrasensory Greninja) are running around and there is a mon that can help handle that burden... Rotom-W (I still friggin hate him)

So yeah, I second the S-rank nomination

 

[Pancham]

Honestly, I can see why Rotom-w would be nominated for S-rank; however, what people fail to understand is that, while it can check most of the tier, it cannot do so with one single set. If it runs 252/252+ Def to check MegaPinsir and other physical threats, it has no offensive presence, and loses to strong special attackers, if it does the opposite, it's too easy for Talonbird and Mega Pinsir to overwhelm it, the two pokemon you'd want to use Rotom-w for.

While Rotom-w does counter Mega Pinsir and Talonbird, and other threats, it's quite easy for these two to overwhelm Rotom-w, due to its lack of recovery outside of ChestoResto, which after one Rest, is lost. I can see Rotom-w being S if it had Recover; however, I could also see it being banned if this were the case. I understand how annoying, and how anti-meta, Rotom-w is, but if you really take a look at it, it just can't stay up to pace, and is quite easily overwhelmed from popular OU behemoths including Mega Pinsir, Aegislash, Talonflame, and others.

Rotom-w is one of those pokemon that wants to be in at every instance of the battle because it can check many thing. But, due to not being able to check what it can with one set, and for fear of taking too much damage and becoming overwhelmed, it can't really do so.

For these reasons, I believe Rotom-w should stay in A+ rank.

EDIT: I am beginning to agree with Chou about Mega Venusaur. Though, this could just be because he is making better arguments against Mega Venusaur being S than his opposer(s) are for keeping it there.

 

[Salemance]

And as it was said, so shall it be. Comes back to what happened when we discussed this once before (and as re-stated by TooMuchSugar), back to being worn down/reliable recovery, yada yada.

 

[LoDart210]

That's fine by me, I won't argue for it. I dunno, besides a few lower tier mons, the viability thread seems about settled for now.

 

[Sabretooth7777]

Rotom-W? That's a great pokemon, no joke, but its not in the same category as Aegislash or Mega Pinsir. There are too many checks and counters too it (assault vest t-tar sometimes, any grass type, terrakion if its a physically defensive rotom) It should just be A+ or A.

 

[Monte Cristo]

The point is they still use it and still fry Venu. You haven't debuffed that. Latios and Latias are really good in this meta because Charizard / Pinsir / Talonflame are at the top, and all really need that Defog (or Spin) support.



Extrasensory is definitely one of Greninja's best attacks, and the fact that it is a Water-type that ONE SHOTS Mega Venu is one of its selling points in the meta. Even during the suspect test, I had my Mega Venu's one-shot by Greninja quite often, to the point I stopped switching venu into it completely.



Psychic is growing in popularity on Lando-I (though it does have bad 4MSS), and I've definitely had my Venu one shot by Thundurus-I because of Psychic. Thundurus-I doesn't have the le-way to go on a nasty plot sweep in this meta (too much priority), so why WOULDN'T you carry an attack that 1-shots the one A/S rank Pokemon that "walls" you're Electric/Ice/Fighting coverage?



Even though the vast majority of the Pokemon Venusaur handles are physical (still)? Also the fact that Venu cannot OHKO Thundurus-I in return?



Psychic / Energy Ball / Surf / Tail Glow Manaphy is definitely a thing. It's losing a lot by passing up on Ice Beam sure, but it's definitely a thing. Lure in and smash Mega Venu and Rotom-W? Why not?



It affects Venu greatly when they are now the TOP and the MOST common-- it's a big change from when they were playing 2nd fiddle to Luke.



Running Psychic on many of the Pokemon I mentioned is definitely not the most "efficient" coverage, but even if Venu were to become an A+ threat, that still means it's a top metagame threat. It's perfectly natural for those Pokemon it "checks" to use strategies that destroy it if they can. BECAUSE Mega Venu is A+ or better, running Psychic attacks on them is totally viable. It's a legitimate option.

While I perfectly agree that waiting to see some usage stats is not unreasonable, we ARE discussing S/A+ as the focus right now, and it's perfectly reasonable for me to bring up that from my experience, Venu is less useful than it was.

Remember, the argument is not whether or not Mega Venu is good-- everyone is fully aware that it is a top Pokemon. A+ Pokemon are top class Pokemon. The point is whether it is still a threat that deserves the highest S rank.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 159-187 (43.6 - 51.3%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 213-252 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 213-252 (70.7 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Venusaur: 237-281 (78.7 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 139-165 (46.3 - 55%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
(252 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 169-201 (56.3 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
and
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Venusaur: 276-328 (91.6 - 108.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 250-296 (83 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 250-296 (68.6 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 187-221 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


I'm really starting to doubt your credibility as a whole, when you say something as adamant as it will get OHKOd, at least double check the calcs (and yes I know 0//0 and other venu is mainly un viable, it's just to test the possibility of killing it. Also Greninja already has pretty bad 4MSS with Spikes/U-turn/Ice Beam/Dark Pulse/Hydro Pump/Hidden Power making it worse with extrasensory is not a good idea, sure it lures mega venu but what are you going to do when they tank it for 40% left and figure out your gimmick?Also, like I said, ladder usage right now is trash, and I highly doubt it's a accurate representation of what the meta really is right now.

But for now, onto your other comments:
"The point is they still use it and still fry Venu. You haven't debuffed that. Latios and Latias are really good in this meta because Charizard / Pinsir / Talonflame are at the top, and all really need that Defog (or Spin) support."
No, latias and latios are really good in the meta becuase they are legitimate fucking threats

"It affects Venu greatly when they are now the TOP and the MOST common-- it's a big change from when they were playing 2nd fiddle to Luke."
Most of these pokemon didn't even compete with mega lucario, they worked with it to overpower defensive teams and make the threat of mega luke even huger when you have to tip toe around every other nuke on the team.

And yes I know what the question is, I just doubt most of your experiences and statements regarding mega venusaur. I do believe right now, every wall has it worse than mega venu despite these metagame trends(which I disagree on) you speak about and mega venu is the most versatile and viable wall in OU. Venusaur's wall sets alone aren't limited to a certain move order- they can be from power whip/knock off/EQ?synthesis to giga drain/sludge bomb/synthesis/sleep powder to well. dare I say it a lot. And plus, because of mega venusaur's overlooked offensive presence it can catch foes off guard with it's amazing offensive output for a wall(most people say the sets are bad and then you realize they play their offensive sets like the wall set and you facepalm). Not only that, but mega venusaur's sets all can be tweaked in terms of EVs to fit your team perfectly, for instance EnerG218 's RMT using mega venusaur is a good example of a tweaked mega venusaur set. Overall, the versatility and the pure greatness in terms of offensive and/or defensive support mega venusaur can bring to a team is near unmatchable and purely amazing in OU

 

[Halcyon.]

"Psychic / Energy Ball / Surf / Tail Glow Manaphy is definitely a thing. It's losing a lot by passing up on Ice Beam sure, but it's definitely a thing. Lure in and smash Mega Venu and Rotom-W? Why not?"
So you admit you lose a lot by using it like any bulky grass not weak to psychic (read: all except 3 in OU). And you wonder why I question it's viability

Hi, guy in charge of the Manaphy analysis here. Yeah it is a thing, Psychic is slashed after Energy Ball in the analysis because Psychic 2HKOs Rotom-W regardless and OHKOs physically defensive Venusaur. Used it on a team about a month ago and I gotta say there is no better feeling than OHKOing a Mega Venusaur with Psychic and then sweeping with Belly Drum Azumarill.

 

[Punchshroom]

Looking back on Mega Venusaur, I remembered when I defended its position for S-Rank since it has great bulk, good recovery, competent offensive presence, and its weaknesses can generally be seen a mile away. Now however, the shift in the meta has not been very favorable for Venusaur. The dominant threats now pack ridiculous power that Venusaur cannot tank, while Venusaur cannot respond adequately to them in return without weakening its already favorable matchups. Psychic coverage moves are getting increasingly common, which weakens my "predictable SE attack that Venusaur easily sees coming" argument. Granted, Venusaur still walls a ton of shit, but when it struggles to wall the current best offensive threats properly (Venusaur could at least take on Lucario and Genesect with some capacity), it could jeopardize its S Rank position. I mean it's still great, but definitely feels it's not at its prime anymore. A+ is still the lowest Venusaur should go, imo.

As for Rotom-W, there is no denying its great utility. On one hand, no other Pokemon can do what Rotom-W does as effectively: a bulky pivot with good resists, difficult to wear down, an uncommon weakness, and a movepool well tailored to its role. On the other hand, Rotom-W doesn't seem to pack the 'threat level' the other S Ranks do, either because of its lack of sheer 'oomph', or because of its lack of reliable recovery (ChestoRest forces you to play a tad more carefully with Rotom-W, while Pain Split recovery can be denied by a weakened opponent), which is not good for its primary role (look what happened to Goodra!). Its movepool is also pretty sparse for the most part, so solid checks like Kyurem-B, Lati@s, and Venusaur can respond to it almost every time. Ironically, it does pretty well against the rising threats that overpower Venusaur, but it still has its own flaws that, again imo, prevent it from just reaching the top and keep it in A+ (at worst, like Venusaur).

I'd like to bring Thundurus-I back for discussion, if no one minds. This thing practically fits the definition of S Rank already: the only real flaws I see it having is its SR weakness and lack of bulk. Thundurus-I isn't seen Volt Switching very often as it isn't designed as a bulky pivot like Rotom-W or Landorus-T, so Stealth Rock doesn't seem like too huge an issue (still a thorn in its side though). The lack of bulk is unfortunate, but it still has great resists like Flying, Bug, Steel, Ground, and Fighting, so it can still take a hit if need be, and said bulk is sufficient enough for Thundy to take the neutral attacks of most defensive Pokemon. Easily Thundurus-I's biggest selling point is its versatility, and unlike Rotom-W it hardly has to sacrifice much, if any, of its offensive potential. Thunder Wave, Nasty Plot, and Taunt already give Thundurus-I some excellent utility, and its offensive movepool plus stats lets it strike damn near everything enough to deter most switch-ins: Superpower nails pink blobs and Assault Vest Tyranitar, while Psychic / HP Flying can make Venusaur pause, and of course Nasty Plot helps boost its attacks even more. You can't even revenge kill this thing easily due to its great speed plus Prankster Thunder Wave just to drive that point home. I know that its ranking was made not very long ago at all, but I just wanted to give Thundy-I another shot for S Rank.

I don't really have an opinion on Charizard-Y for A+... frankly I still think ranking Megas and non-megas seperate is a waste of time (better to see megas as an item...); and especially with Charizard, Y and X are way more dangerous because of having totally different counters, and I don't think there's any denying that. Ranking the effectiveness of one independent of the other just seems silly. Charizard itself is an S class threat-- to me that's that's the bottom line.

holy shit CHARIZARD is an S class threat...

A good chunk Pokemon are outright unviable without their Mega Evos, and listing their base forms without the Megas imply these Pokemon don't need Megas to be good or even halfway usable (see: Tyranitar, Garchomp, Scizor, Gengar, etc.). The fact that Charizard needs its Megas while being severely outclassed itself is still grounds for listing both MegaZards and leaving regular Zard out of this.

 

[KurashiDragon]

I'm done with the Charizard Y stuff at this point. I'm not gonna beat a dead horse. However, I notice my boy Rotom-w is being discussed.

I think Rotom-w deserves it's A+ Rank. It's such a great pokemon. I use it on most of my teams. While I find it slightly ironic that the most used pokemon in showdown isn't an S Rank right now, I feel it's fine at A+ Rank. It can be checked by a lot of things and while it's a great glue to almost every team, it cant really tank most of the metagame without some form of team support. Grass-types especially just walk all over it. (hello M-Vena) Like most walls, it doesn't enjoy a toxic to the face and it doesn't have a very good form of recovery. While Pain Split is pretty good with fair prediction skills, it's no recover and while Rest may get rid of Toxic, your gonna be using Chesto berry with it and/or using some form of Heal Bell support. I feel it requires to much support to tank and just cant be S Rank.

That said, with proper support, it's an excellent pokemon that will rarely let you down if at all. It's a great tank, a great pivot, and just an all around great Pokemon. It's the most used Pokemon on showdown for a reason. Definitely an A+ Rank pokemon and well deserving of it.

 

[RufflesPro]

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 314-370 (86.2 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 120-142 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

U-Turn does minimum of 20% health to Physically defensive mega venosaur, and not having to take U-Turn damage and then get a new pokemon in front of you, while not getting 3HKOed by Genesect is really nice. All Mega Lucario has to do is to have an NP, if not, Flash Cannon still does almost 50% to the monster Mega Venusaur.

Mega Venusaur really benefited to get rid of the top 2 viable pokemon.

252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 177-211 (48.6 - 57.9%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

That's the strongest it can get. And it still doesn't have a 100% chance of 2HKO-ing Venusaur, and that's saying Mega Venusaur missed Sleep Powder, or went for Leech Seed first. Because Sleep Powder --> Leech Seed ---> Giga drain until wakes up and use synthesis is darn annoying.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 244-291 (67 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega Venusaur uses Sleep Powder --> Synthesis --> Leech Seed --> Giga Drain ---> Synthesis. Even if Greninja wakes up on the turn you use Giga Drain. You will have enough health to put him back to sleep again.

252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 140-166 (38.4 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

If Manaphy lacks a Tail Glow, Mega Venusaur won't have a problem even if it carries Psychic.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 260-307 (71.4 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sleep Powder ---> Synthesis ---> Leech Seed ---> Giga Drain ---> Sleep Powder

of course this would be ruined if he woke up on the turn you Leech Seed. But sleeping for only 1 turn is absolutely unlucky, and while it happens, it's not that best argument in the world.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 179-213 (49.1 - 58.5%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO

Starmie doesn't carry Psyshock as a must, and only few carry it tbh. If it did, it still doesn't win. As it has the same case of Landorus.

Granted, Mega Venusaur cannot counter the aforementioned pokemons on the switch in, especially if they had the right moves (i.e psychic on Manaphy), but why would do you expect a physically defensive Mega Venusaur to counter a special sweeper?

Mega Venusaur can check them in most cases, unless you really get unlucky and miss that Sleep Powder or if the opponent sleeps for 1-2 turns. But that's never an argument.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Thundurus should be S. It basically can do anything you ever wanted an offensive threat to do. Wallbreak with mixed sets, sweep with nasty plot, shut down rkillers with priority thunder wave, fuck deoxys s and klefki with priority taunt, gain momentum with volt switch... Of course it cant do all of that with one set, but the fact is that thundurus can be customized to beat ANYTHING in the game, and by customizing i dont mean using gimmicks, i mean legitimate threatening sets that can put a huge pressure on any team. Its quite easily the best pokemon in the tier now.

 

[Salt]

A good chunk Pokemon are outright unviable without their Mega Evos, and listing their base forms without the Megas imply these Pokemon don't need Megas to be good or even halfway usable (see: Tyranitar, Garchomp, Scizor, Gengar, etc.). The fact that Charizard needs its Megas while being severely outclassed itself is still grounds for listing both MegaZards and leaving regular Zard out of this.

Just do this:

Hide

Scizor

Tyranitar

Charizard

And I doubt anybody reading this thread will mistake regular Charizard as being viable when they see this. Also, this is how Ubers does it, and I don't think anybody mistakes regular Gengar or Kangaskhan as being viable there. Just a thought.

 

[Ender Wiggin]

Rotom-W? That's a great pokemon, no joke, but its not in the same category as Aegislash or Mega Pinsir. There are too many checks and counters too it (assault vest t-tar sometimes, any grass type, terrakion if its a physically defensive rotom) It should just be A+ or A.

Just run some calcs with all those checks you just listed burned.

 

[Red Cat]

I think moving Rotom-W to S rank is a bit of a stretch. 50/107/107 defenses are good, but not great, and its 105 Special Attack isn't great either. Rotom-W is more anti-meta than a true threat which you need to teambuild for; looking through the S and A ranks backs up my point. Rotom-W cannot stop either Charizard form and physically defensive sets (which it needs to run to deal with Talonflame and Mega Pinsir) take a lot of damage from Aegislash. It cannot touch Kyurem-B and is OHKOed by a boosted Manaphy's Energy Ball. It is OHKOed by +2 Thundurus after SR if physically defensive and can only do ~50% back to Thundy with Hydro Pump anyway. If you go down the list, there is Conkeldurr, Excadrill, and Lati@s along with numerous others which have few problems with Rotom-W. It is the only true counter to both Talonflame and Mega-Pinsir (besides Rotom-H which is weak to SR) which is why it sees so much use in OU. The high usage of Rotom-W says more about Mega Pinsir and Talonflame than it does about Rotom-W. If anything, Rotom-W should be moved down to A rank instead of going up to S.

 

[Wobbyble]

Just do this:

Hide

Scizor

Tyranitar

Charizard

And I doubt anybody reading this thread will mistake regular Charizard as being viable when they see this. Also, this is how Ubers does it, and I don't think anybody mistakes regular Gengar or Kangaskhan as being viable there. Just a thought.

Yeah... Can we please do it this way.
I doubt there's a single person in this entire thread who thinks that Charizard itself should be lower than S.

 

[Ropeburn]

Rotom-W is the epitome of "Jack-of-all-trades, master of none". While his typing and versatility are great, I don't feel like he fulfills the role of S-tier. He lacks reliable recovery outside of Rest/Pain Split, and his HP is a serious let-down. It lacks the offensive presence of Charizard, the defensive presence of Venusaur, and can't do anything to Lati@s. If he had some sort of boosting/recovery move I could see it, but eh..A+ rank is perfectly fine for the little guy.

I'm also more of the opinion that we should just group up Mega Evolutions with their base form. It lowers the amount of pokemon to rank and generally keeps the post more clean. However, there should be a way for newer players to see that Charizard (Base) is great because it Mega evolves. Perhaps Salt's suggestion would be best to avoid confusion.