It's really not that hard to keep rocks off the field though. With defoggers, offensive and defensive, you effectively discourage the opponent from taking the time to set hazards. Keep in mind that, if the opponent has a defogger, all you have to do is set rocks repeatedly to keep yourself safe from their rocks as well thanks to defog.
On the other hand, a stealth rock resistance doesn't help medicham's issue of bulk in anyway.
Well yeah, but Y-zard isn't supposed to take physical hits that well, its built to take special hits better. Also, keep in mind that Y-zard has some nice resistances to common physical attacking moves, like fighting and bug, as well as an immunity to ground.
Medicham on the other hand, folds to neutral hits in general and sports no real resistances to take advantage of.
But why would you ever run Recover? It's like running Roost on Staraptor, it's just dumb.
Let's take a look at Rotom-W vs. both of these guys, and how Medicham performs with Recover.
Just ignoring that for a moment Rotom-W cannot burn :P
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Medicham: 142-168 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Medicham: 91-108 (34.8 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 108-128 (36.2 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 140-168 (46.9 - 56.3%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
As we can see, Mega Medicham cannot reliably even take attacks from an uninvested tank. Char-Y on the other hand, despite being weak to both STABs, can reliably switch in (ignoring rocks) on a hydro pump, roost off any damage, neuter Volt Switch damage with said roost, and Fry Rotom-W with a Solarbeam 100% of the time. (something Mega Medicham can't do without rocks.)
Don't see the point you're trying to make here...
Ok I get that ariados is pretty bad, but do you know what web passing even does? It baton passes a sticky web to another pokemon, meaning that the pokemon is forced to stay in even when ariados is out. If this is something like a sylveon without toxic, it's just easy set up fodder for a pokemon like volcorona, which could probably set up straight to +6 as sylveon, trapped, cannot do anything.
Obviously, ariados is total shit and you'll probably never pull this strategy off, but it's only shit because the users of it are shit. If there was a viable pokemon that could baton pass a trapping move it would be way more than "useful" in EVERY tier.
That's not true in the slightest. You could take practically any strong neutral hit in the tier and KO Mega Medicham with only 20% prior damage or less, practically without exception. It is weak to both hits of the spectrum and cannot take hits in general.
Chariard-Y, on the other hand, can actually take survive moves like Landorus Psychic/Sludge Wave, or special hits from revenge killers in general. Look:
252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 205-244 (68.7 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 236-278 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's one of the tiers strongest special attackers, STAB move, that's SUPER EFFECTIVE. AND CHAR-Y LIVES IT. WITH NO INVESTMENT AT ALL.
Want to see how Mega Medicham fares?
252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Medicham: 265-313 (101.5 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Medicham: 306-360 (117.2 - 137.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Literally any strong neutral hit is enough to take out this thing. You can mention Talonflame, or Terrakion, or physical Rock moves, but yeah, Char-y is just as frail as Mega Medicham on the physical spectrum. But on the special spectrum, he has enough bulk to live the craziest shit, uninvested. That was a friggin STAB SE CHOICE SPECS HYDRO PUMP FROM 129 BASE SPECIAL ATTACK. IT LIVES.
You can't possibly use the word "marginally" when there's such a vast difference in special bulk.
So? Y-zard has fantastic special bulk to complement decent speed, while Medicham possesses nothing.
Yeah, and?
Umm, Y-zard doesn't have the speed or bulk to blow past offensive threats?
Jee, do I have to pull this insane calc back?
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 236-278 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That would be considered by MANY to be a solid check to Char-Y, but there it is, living it and firing back with a solarbeam for the KO.
As demonstrated, Char-Y has the special bulk to live potential revenge killers such as the one mentioned above. He CAN live strong special neutral hits and retaliate back or Roost. You have to make sure that your offensive check is physical, because if it isn't, it might just live and kill you right back or just Roost stall in your face as it survives a draco. Speaking of Dracos
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 246-290 (82.5 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Medicham: 316-372 (121 - 142.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You could just Roost if you're at full and outstall the "good check your opponent has for it" and eventually force it out, making another pokemon have to eat a sun boosted STAB Fire Blast. Mega Medicham, on the other hand, just dies.
Baton Pass is definitely a cool idea, but there are better pokemon to match up with bisharp. What does Medicham really offer for Bisharp other than being an unreliable and frail fighting resist? The core you mentioned is really dangerous, I agree, but mega medicham isn't really offering much synergy to this core (or to any core in general)
(Also keep in mind that
1) Focus Punch must be run with Sub on Mega Mawile
2) The things you're trying to hit with Ice punch outspeed you and hit you with eq anyway, so it has to be on the switch. Pretty situational and the opportunity cost is way too high, Mega Mawile doesn't have moveslots to spare. Ice Punch not worth it on Mega Mawile. But enough on him.)
Again, if you run Thunderpunch, you lose to aegislash, which is a much bigger issue. Any player switching in a slowbro on Mega Medicham should, in general, not have to to worry about T-Punch. As stated before though, Baton Pass is a cool move on him.
Latias is considered safe Imo because we all know Bullet Punch is pretty bad in the first place, most of the experienced players here, as far as I know, don't run BP on him anyway.
Also, a bulky starmie (dunno why'd you be running him but w/e) can switch in with relative ease, recover off most damage, and threaten back with a burn from scald.
However, it doesn't take HJK well at all :/ but that's only with 248/32 physical bulk.
Defensive Celebi also fares somewhat well, taking around 60% max from Ice Punch, but it isn't good enough.
Yeah, there's not a lot of things to take it well. But if we extend the list to things slower that can take two hits, bulky psychics like Reuniclus and Slowbro immediately come to mind, both of which take Medicham on fairly well.
This was what you said:
Or more importantly
I was just proving that part wrong. I never said priority was extremely helpful to Medicham (because it isn't).
Being able to hit like a truck, however, is the only real thing that Mega Medi has going for it right now (which is also the only thing Rampardos has going for it, just to a much worse extent)
I definitely didn't ask for a direct comparison in the same tier, but they both share a lot of characteristics, namely:
Bad defensive typing
No Bulk
No good priority
Mega Medicham suffers from lack of set up move (while Rampardos actually has access to rock polish)
Rampardos has terrible base speed (Mega Medicham's is somewhat salvageable)
Hit like dump trucks.
A direct comparison is out of the question, but they undoubtedly share a lot of traits.
Yes, Mega Medicham doesn't have the bulk, its true. But it would be alright if it had a little more speed too, to offset its bad bulk. It doesn't.
Again, I divide wallbreakers into two three classes:
The bulky: Aegislash, Azumarill, Mega Mawile
Balanced-ish: Char-Y, Mega garchomp, Kyu-B, Bisharp
The super fast: Terrakion, Keldeo, Landorus, SD Garchomp, Thundurus, Mega Pinsir
The Bulky, obviously, are pretty slow but they have great bulk, typing, and strong priority to fit in.
Mega Medicham clearly doesn't fit in here.
The Balanced-ish: They sit at a decent enough speed-tier, but while still not good enough, they can still compensate with decent bulk or typing and/or the ability to set up, or provide some other good niche to separate it.
Mega Medicham doesn't fit into here either, he doesn't have decent bulk or typing or the ability to set-up. He doesn't really have any super unique niche other than just hitting hard.
The super fast: These guys blaze above the crowded 100 base speed tier. They hit hard and fast, usually carry a LO, and are sometimes a secondary win-condition. They outpace a good amount of offensive threats and can dent a lot of things with easy to spam STABS.
Mega Medicham doesn't really manage to fit in here either, as it cannot be relied on as a secondary win-condition and cannot outpace a good amount of offensive threats.
This is the reason why I don't agree with mega medicham in A-, I like to categorize wallbreakers as bulky or as fast, and Mega Medicham is neither.
The heatran is what your 3rd moveslot (4th is roost) is usually dedicated to. Earthquake is what I and a lot of other people prefer, but Focus blast is a popular option to hit Tyranitar as well. Then again, Tyranitar isn't that hard to deal with.
Unless the Latis are specs, Char-Y lives LO Draco from full health and can proceed to Roost stall and force it out. Obviously this probably doesn't happen in real battles, but just saying, it still wins 1v1.
Chomp, I'm sure, takes about 50% from solarbeam, so if its switching in and doesn't carry Stone Edge (and isn't banded Outrage) you win.
Tyranitar and Hippowdon are super easy to take care of with Keldeo, a common partner found alongside him often.
:]
The thing is, unlike Char-Y who functions fairly well with just two moves, Mega Medicham does not do the same. MCham desperately needs every coverage he can get, and definitely needs the coverage over some measly Fake Out.
And his speed is not solid at all, iffy at best. 100 base speed really isn't anything to write home about for a pokemon with no bulk or good priority
But why would you use Bulk Up for wall breaking purposes if you hit harder with just two moves? You're still very very vulnerable to powerful special attackers even after a boost, scarfed or not.
And the whole "staying power" argument still doesn't really work when you have bad defensive typing, bad bulk, no recovery, and no priority.
It can't use it decently at all, 9 times out of 10 it will be better off running a coverage move or just attacking twice.
Yeah, I know. If you do wanna run both, you have terrible coverage and plenty of easy switch-ins.
First off, Slowbro can take anything mega medicham has to offer but Thunderpunch, which is extremely rare, irrelevant, and sports a high opportunity cost.
Also, that replay was pretty atrocious, and proved absolutely nothing. The opponent played terribly with a very poorly built team, and was obviously unprepared for a pokemon like that. I mean come on, when a team doesn't have a single choice scarfer, and you have a super effective move on your wallbreaker that outspeeds every member on his team, it's really nothing impressive. If the team was made slow enough, even a damn rampardos could do exactly the same. Replay was terrible and proved absolutely nothing lol.
Also, Tentacruel loses as earthquake is a common coverage option, and tentacruel can barely scratch it in return. Blissey is a good counter, yeah, but Blissey counters every special attacker that doesn't boost or use psyshock/secret sword. It's not really a valid argument.
While Medicham does indeed defeat bulky teams easily, that's a very very small majority of the teams you'll be facing. Most teams have atleast two pokemon that can outspeed and OHKO mega medicham with only 20-30% prior damage, with their main STAB, GUARANTEED.
And other wallbreakers can actually do this on their own for the most part. SD mega garchomp can own venutran, fire blast skarm, own chansey, and it usually gets past the other two members as well, something like clefable or something idk not much of an issue. There certainly exist wallbreakers that exist that can tear apart stall teams on its own, and several of them are much better than mega medicham. It's not that big of an accomplishment for a dedicated wallbreaker to decimate a stall team that has no resistances and nothing faster than it.
Are you for real? Roost is a fantastic option on Raptor? Hello?
When was mega medicham's issues of bulk and typing ever addressed before in the thread? If they have been, they clearly didn't discuss it thoroughly enough, because this discussion is still going on.
Every pokemon has flaws, you can't just carelessly check off that and move on. Char-Y's only real prominent flaw is his sub-par speed (in my eyes), but Mega Medicham has a lot more to worry about, like bulk, typing, recovery, 4MSS, sub-par speed, and lack of priority to make up for the aforementioned.
Needs some support: Definitely. You literally need a bulky pivot answer to every pokemon that's strong and faster than him because he dies to practically every attack. Your teammates carry the HUGE burden of getting Mega Medicham in safely and cushioning any hit to keep him alive, because frankly, he takes huge damage from just about any attacker in OU atm. The opportunity cost to keep him alive and use him effectively is way too high for A-
Give Free turns: Yeah, not much at all. In fact, he's the one giving up free turns everytime you're forced out because that Keldeo can straight up OHKO your frail pink ass.
Does the job well and majority of the time: Check. yeah, he's strong, and that's why people use him. He does his job of being strong really well, but this alone doesn't carry him into B+
Just pretend Mega Medicham wasn't insanely strong for a second (say, remove Pure Power)
Does he have any redeeming qualities to him at all?
Another main flaw I'd like to bring up with Mega Medicham are his STABs.
His STABs alone give you terrible coverage, and you're forced to take up moveslots that could be used for Substitute, Baton Pass, or a bunch of other cool options with coverage moves that are necessary for you to uphold your title of 2HKO'ing the entire tier. You're really strapped for moveslots, and you don't have some "magic coverage combo" that gives you all you need to free up your moveslots.
Wallbreakers that boast this "magic coverage combo" are pokemon like Terrakion and Char-Y, which can, for the most part, function entirely off of their Rock/fighting STABs and Fire/Grass coverage, respectively. This effectively frees up moveslots which allows them to cover up the pokemon that can take their "magic coverage combo."
As if all the flaws I stated weren't enough, mega medicham suffers from not having access to this either. He has no two moves to function with, he always always needs coverage to truly be a wallbreaker and not lose to extremely common pokemon. He has no room for extra moveslots.
But wait!
There's even more!
Yet another flaw mega medicham has to struggle with is his "pre"evo, normal medicham. Mega Medicham is stuck with a totally garbage 80 base speed and still has no bulk, so on top of being difficult to bring in and keep alive, you have to deal with 80 base speed for a turn in which it could just totally straight up die.
So to summarize my view on Mega Medicham.
His strengths: Raw power
Decent Versatility (Can use a lot of different coverage moves, and moves like Sub and Baton Pass)
Flaws: Sub-par speed
Bad defensive typing
Terrible Bulk overall
No set-up moves
No reliable strong priority move
No "free moveslots"
Has to deal with 80 base speed on turn 1.
Sorry, but despite his raw power, there's just too much holding him back.
Keep at B+