Bulky DD Charizard X is the better set, but the most popular spreads according to the 1825 moveset stats are still full offensive, so that's probably what you're going to run into the most. Either way, even the strongest of Charizard X fail to 2HKO physically defensive Rhyperior at +1 without Outrage and get 2HKOed in return by Earthquake, so Rhyperior still makes a really solid answer to Dragon Dance variants.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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I wasn't saying bulky Zard is bad yes it's better but the fact is yes it's uncommon and my calc better represents what Rhyperior will be facing. I hate to use usage stats and I know I'm going to burned for it. But when it's under 5% of Zard-X use bulky in the higher stats. I'm not sure how the other calc is more relevant.
My thoughts on:
Victini and Volcarona - at first glance it seems wrong to lump these two together, since they fill such different roles - the only common thing they seem to have is being part Fire-type and being more suited for offense. However the main problem they have in common is that they don't do well in the current OU environment thanks to the meta being currently overprepared for strong offensive Fire-types. The threat of M-Charizard, Talonflame, and Heatran in the meta means all teams are forced to run a way to deal with Fire types, and the thing is that Victini and Volc both get hit hard, if not worse, by all the anti-Fire attacks people are running. Another thing Victini and Volc have in common is that their secondary typing gives them a weakness to a type that has not only been boosted in potency in Gen VI, but also has more relevant users in the new OU. Victini's Ghost and Dark weaknesses give it a problem with all the Shadow Balls and Knock-offs that are commonly seen in OU teams now, making it riskier to switch in, while Volc's Flying weakness gives it a terrible time dealing with Talonflame and M-Pinsir's strong priority. Volc doesn't even get to abuse its niche as being a rain-abusing Hurricane user anymore!
Victini and Volcarona - at first glance it seems wrong to lump these two together, since they fill such different roles - the only common thing they seem to have is being part Fire-type and being more suited for offense. However the main problem they have in common is that they don't do well in the current OU environment thanks to the meta being currently overprepared for strong offensive Fire-types. The threat of M-Charizard, Talonflame, and Heatran in the meta means all teams are forced to run a way to deal with Fire types, and the thing is that Victini and Volc both get hit hard, if not worse, by all the anti-Fire attacks people are running. Another thing Victini and Volc have in common is that their secondary typing gives them a weakness to a type that has not only been boosted in potency in Gen VI, but also has more relevant users in the new OU. Victini's Ghost and Dark weaknesses give it a problem with all the Shadow Balls and Knock-offs that are commonly seen in OU teams now, making it riskier to switch in, while Volc's Flying weakness gives it a terrible time dealing with Talonflame and M-Pinsir's strong priority. Volc doesn't even get to abuse its niche as being a rain-abusing Hurricane user anymore!
alexwolf Amoonguss is almost always (~70% according to the latest 1825 usage stats) specially defensive and can take Aegis Shadow Ball with ease. That beeing said HP Fire isnt a good choice on it as all the physical steel types you mentioned walk over it, i doubt it could beat Bisharp with active sleep clause even if it was physical defensive tbh. You would have to use Clear Smog the whole time to prevent them from getting an SD boost cause if they do they outspeed and you can say good bye to ~70-80% of your life even with max phys def. Ferro is pretty much the only thing where HP fire would have some use, not worth it imo.
Just a small nitpick but Amoonguss can't even use Clear Smog against Bisharp to remove Swords Dance boosts.
If Sleep Clause hasn't been activated, then Mega Mawile can just switch out and sleep fodder something else, and the next time you come in it can predict your Hidden Power Fire and eventually wear you down if you stay in for longer than two turns. It also isn't a good (or good enough) check to SD Mawile since most of them will have at least one of Iron Head, Fire Fang, or Knock Off, the first two OHKOing you after a Swords Dance and the last 2HKOing you after a Swords Dance, and again since it only takes one turn for Mawile to set up sleep foddering something else isn't that big of a deal.
Mega Scizor you can't really beat even with Hidden Power since you could easily be set up fodder for it, giving it chances to Swords Dance or recover, or if it Swords Dances while you switch you are still 2HKOed by it while Hidden Power Fire only 2HKOs 34% of the time, and after a Swords Dance Foul Play is a guaranteed 2HKO and if it's a variant with U-turn it can U-turn out and let something else take the Hidden Power or Spore, while most switchins to Amoonguss will take at least more damage from Foul Play than from HP Fire because most of them are either Psychic types or physical Flying types. Ferrothorn is the best reason for HP Fire, so I'll give you that, but otherwise it's mostly worse than Foul Play.
Aegislash 2HKOs physically defensive Amoonguss after Stealth Rock with Shadow Ball/Flash Cannon most of the time, yes. But if the Aegislash user uses King's Shield, Swords Dance, Shadow Sneak, or Sacred Sword on the switch, then it's a dead or sleeping Aegislash, unless it switches out, which in that case Amoonguss will still have Foul Play to hit it later, unlike Hidden Power Fire Amoonguss who only 3HKOs Aegislash-Blade with HP. Foul Play is also another one of Amoonguss's answers to Swords Dance/Dragon Dance/Bulk Up users, hitting Psychic-types for fair damage on the switch-in, and hitting Pokemon that just have high physical attack such as Kyurem or something on the switch-in. Clear Smog's only real purpose is for BD Azumarill, but if Sleep Clause is assumed to not be activated for something like Mega Mawile, who can usually switch out because it only takes one turn to set up with no drawbacks, then I don't get why it's going to be activated for something like BD Azumarill, who only really gets one chance to set up the whole game or is able to be killed be any attack if it sets up twice, so it won't want to switch out as much. However, Clear Smog is usually better, but Stun Spore and Hidden Power Fire could probably both be used if needed. CM Clefable probably shouldn't be mono-attacking, and Spore gets it anyways if it's a real problem to your team. Anyways, Foul Play has been and IMO still is the best option for that slot, as if you're using Amoonguss over Mega Venusaur you should probably be using a Fire-type alongside it.
A paralyzed Mega Charizard is just as useless as one confused or something. Counters shouldn't be based off of luck, so I don't get how Thunder Wave makes Slowbro a hard Charizard counter. A paralyzed Mega Charizard X still outspeeds a Slowbro, and assuming you don't get fully paralyzed it kills Slowbro. I was under the impression that Thunder Punch was kind of a thing for getting Azumarill, but okay.
Maybe not usually, but they could if they wanted to or if Slowbro became a serious problem for them. Like I said, they could go mixed if they wanted to as well.
4 SpA Slowbro Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 130-154 (40.1 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Does Slowbro usually run more Special Attack investment than that or something?
Hippo can Toxic Slowbro, set up Stealth Rock, Slack Off, and spam Earthquake until it dies. On a strict 1 v 1 Hippowdon wins, but Slowbro will win if it switches out and has cleric support, although Hippowdon will probably have a cleric as well. Any other Hippowdon set Slowbro beats I guess, but most Hippowdon aren't offensive. Again you're still relying on luck to beat Terrakion, it definitely is a check, but the only other non-Scarf set isn't Swords Dance. There's also leads with Taunt and Choice Band, which Slowbro checks but does not counter. You didn't specify SR Skarmory, and Spikes is common as well and better IMO since there are about 1000000 other defensive Pokemon with Stealth Rock but Skarmory, Chesnaught, and Ferrothorn are some of the few with Spikes. While Skarmory can't deal with Slowbro, it can force it out, and while that means Slowbro won't be taking any damage from the hazard, the rest of your team still will be. It's not like dealing with Skarmory is one of the grand achievements that every wall wishes to have either.
While Slowbro can check Charizard X, it isn't a counter like you're saying. If you really need a counter to Charizard then you're better off using Hippowdon or Quagsire or something, not Slowbro. Slowbro checks non-Outrage Mega Charizard X provided that Charizard gets at least one turn of full paralyzation and the Slowbro user outpredicts the Charizard user by using Scald, Slack Off, and Thunder Wave at the right moments. Since most Charizards aren't Outrage, and since the best play is assumed, Slowbro does check Mega Charizard X. Outrage 2HKOing it and its reliance on Thunder Wave if Charizard has Outrage is what makes it a check and not a counter. Slowbro is also easier to switch into compared to Amoonguss because Amoonguss has the threat of Foul Play and Spore, which is why I think Amoonguss is worth being in the same rank as Slowbro. Amoonguss has many utilities that make it equal to Slowbro, such as never being useless in any game and more customization based on what threatens your team, which Slowbro does not have.
The Lonely Alula
That's why i said that Amoonguss is a check to Mega Mawile and not a counter. Being able to check it at least once is better than outright losing to SubPunch versions don't you agree? Most of the other stuff that you posted is you arguing about pointless semantics, and i am really not in the mood of going to a quote war for something so trivial. If you really like arguing about semantics then at least make sure you know the terms you are using correctly, as you are not even using the terms check and counter correctly. The only thing if forgot to add in my list is Amoonguss countering Rotom-W, but this doesn't change the fact that Slowbro is in a whole different level of defensive potential than Amoonguss, by dealing with way more offensive threats.
About Dragonite, you 2HKO because Dragonite loses Multiscale on the second hit.
Finally, don't assume random moves on Pokemon just to help your case, Taunt is not standard or a really effective option on all out attacking Deo-S and that's it. Slowbro almost always deals with offensive Deo-S, and this is what matters.
That's why i said that Amoonguss is a check to Mega Mawile and not a counter. Being able to check it at least once is better than outright losing to SubPunch versions don't you agree? Most of the other stuff that you posted is you arguing about pointless semantics, and i am really not in the mood of going to a quote war for something so trivial. If you really like arguing about semantics then at least make sure you know the terms you are using correctly, as you are not even using the terms check and counter correctly. The only thing if forgot to add in my list is Amoonguss countering Rotom-W, but this doesn't change the fact that Slowbro is in a whole different level of defensive potential than Amoonguss, by dealing with way more offensive threats.
About Dragonite, you 2HKO because Dragonite loses Multiscale on the second hit.
Finally, don't assume random moves on Pokemon just to help your case, Taunt is not standard or a really effective option on all out attacking Deo-S and that's it. Slowbro almost always deals with offensive Deo-S, and this is what matters.
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Sorry if this post isn't thought out well enough, you can ignore it if you want.
But Rypherior is amazing on certain teams. Talonflame and Mega Pinsir are still used often. This means that it can support a team fairly well if they have issues with bird spam, Tyranitar does the same role, but better, but it really depends on what else you need to kill.
Hell, It even has Rock polish.
Rypherior is outclassed, but it doesn't seem like C?is where it should be.
Tho, I don't know. I'm not and Expert like some people, so It might be fine where it is.
But Rypherior is amazing on certain teams. Talonflame and Mega Pinsir are still used often. This means that it can support a team fairly well if they have issues with bird spam, Tyranitar does the same role, but better, but it really depends on what else you need to kill.
Hell, It even has Rock polish.
Rypherior is outclassed, but it doesn't seem like C?is where it should be.
Tho, I don't know. I'm not and Expert like some people, so It might be fine where it is.
Amoonguss could technically check a lot more things if all that was needed to check them was to put them to sleep, but fair enough. I'm still not convinced that just because Amoonguss sometimes runs Hidden Power Fire over Foul Play means that all assumptions that Amoonguss has Foul Play are incorrect. A check is a Pokemon that can switch into one of another Pokemon's attacks and defeat that Pokemon before it gets defeated. A counter is a Pokemon that can switch into any of another Pokemon's attacks and defeat that Pokemon before it gets defeated. Assuming it plays out like this:
Charizard uses Dragon Dance while Slowbro switches in.
Charizard uses Dragon Dance while Slowbro uses Thunder Wave.
Charizard is not fully paralyzed and uses Dragon Claw/Dragon Dance while Slowbro uses Slack Off. If the former then the opponent has around 96 or something percent. If the latter the opponent has 100%.
Charizard is not fully paralyzed and uses Dragon Claw/Dragon Dance. Slowbro uses Slack Off. If the former then the opponent has either around 88 or 75 percent. If the latter Slowbro is at 100%.
Charizard is not fully paralyzed for the next two turns. Slowbro will die within those two turns. So Slowbro is a check against non-Outrage Charizard, but not a counter. Even if the Charizard is paralyzed for one or two of those turns, then the Slowbro user just wastes Slack Off PP. Of course if the Charizard is paralyzed then Slowbro defeats it in four turns, but it's still a coin flip, which isn't good if Slowbro is your only "counter" to Charizard.
Again, Slowbro is easy to switch in to unlike Amoonguss and Amoonguss will hardly ever be useless while if the opponent doesn't have a DDer, an offensive Deoxys-S, or an offensive Ground-type then Slowbro will just be a wasted moveslot since it doesn't have any useful status or hazard-setting abilities like Skarmory or Heatran. Slowbro is B+ because it does check a lot of threats and puts a nice dampener on them, making them easier to deal with for the rest of the team. Amoonguss would be B+ because of its utility in Spore and Foul Play and because it provides nice F/W/G synergy, fits easily on most defensive teams, and doesn't use a Mega moveslot like Mega Venusaur while checking/countering the same threats. Dragonite outspeeds you, so Slowbro's not going to win anyways. Fair enough about Deoxys, although physical Life Orb wasn't specified, I suppose since it's its most common and generally most threatening set it is to be assumed.
Since you're the one in charge though, you should keep Amoonguss in B rank if that's what you think is most fitting. I just wanted to say that saying that it doesn't have room for Foul Play, that physically defensive variants don't counter Aegislash if rocks are up, and making a list of Pokemon it checks/counters and a list of Pokemon that Slowbro checks/counters, while Slowbro functions differently and not necessarily better than Amoonguss, isn't the most convincing argument for keeping it there and perhaps comparing the Pokemon that they both always lose or always win against, or comparing their strengths and flaws, is a better way to go about it.
Actually, Amoonguss can check Aegislash with a specially defensive nature if you want, so Foul Play is a good option on such a set, so you can add this one too, though if Amoonguss goes specially defensive it can't check Pokemon such as Mega Gyarados, Terrakion, and BD Azumarill, while Slowbro can deal with all the Pokemon i mentioned with a single set.
A counter to Pokemon A is a Pokemon B that can switch into any move of Pokemon A even with SR up, and either KO / cripple Pokemon A or force it out, before Pokemon A can KO Pokemon B.
And Slowbro is not easy to switch into at all, lol. How many Pokemon don't mind Scald and Thunder Wave, as in don't care about paralysis or burns. Only Chansey, Rotom-W (which still hates the burn as it makes it ridiculously easy to wear down but whatever), Heal Bell Sylveon, and Aromatherapy Clefable. Amoonguss on the other hand becomes one of the biggest set up fodders after Sleep Clause has been activated, and it's very easy to just sac your least useful Pokemon if it means that the Pokemon that Amoonguss could hold back before can now walk all over it (such as DD Mega Gyarados, DD Mega Tyranitar, and Thundurus). So, unlike Amoonguss, Slowbro is equally threatening throughout the whole game, which makes up for Amoonguss's superiority before Sleep Clause has been activated, in terms of being hard to switch into. And it's not like Amoonguss's Spore can't be nullified, as Mandibuzz, Mega Venusaur, and Ferrothorn are all great Pokemon that can shut down any Amoonguss (as long as it lacks HP Fire in Ferro's case).
Moving on, you can't just list the Pokemon that Slowbro checks and counters and say that against a team without any of those Slowbro is a wasted teamslot. The same thing applies to Amoonguss and it deals with even more Pokemon. And you conveniently didn't mention many of the Pokemon that Slowbro deals with, such as Terrakion, CB Azumarill, Keldeo, and Dark Pulse-less Greninja, all of which are huge offensive threats, so yeah against a team without all those Pokemon Slowbro would be just mediocre (not useless at all as it can win a lot of 1 v 1 with Thunder Wave and pivot even against Pokemon it can't beat in order to safely bring teammates in), but good luck finding such a team.
Finally, it doesn't really matter that i am in charge as much as you say, those ranks are formed based on the opinions of the community and my own, not my own only, so any good argument in favor of Amoonguss will be taken into account, but yours was not convincing at all.
i could see mandi in a rn, it's really a lot better than people give t credit for. if you ev it correctly it can tank two focus blasts from lando and becomes a solid lando check, it can handle stuff like chomp, +1 dnite, +1 char x (though it's almost saccing itself to do so unfortunately), revenge non-jolly boosted bd azu given it has 16 speed evs to outrun it, exca, standard aegi, deo-s, bisharp, mega scizor, tflame, loom...it handles a lot of common stuff well and can provide pressure between foul play + taunt/toxic(/knock off), doing really well against common threats, especially being a solid answer to lando not weak to pursuit. it provides immense team utility in defogging too, it can actually deal with bisharp too which is really good for a defensive defogger. if we're looking at other a- defensive threats, we have skarm and chansey (rotom-w kinda but it's more like a pivot). chansey is limited to a sole playstyle, stall while mandi is really good on teams across the defensive spectrum, including as you go into lots of balanced teams where mandibuzz really shines. skarm isn't necessarily limited to stall, but mandi is much less of a sitting duck, as instead of just sitting there and tanking stuff it it is actually able to be more proactive and smack stuff with foul play and w/e. if you look at a we have ferro, hippo, and heatran, which cover a variety of relevant, significant threats like mandi and can actually be proactive vs these threats while providing different varieties of team support. mandi fits there nicely imo.
mega charizard y is still alright but it's just not a+ anymore. it's still pretty damn threatening but the meta is overall just a lot more hostile to it than it was when it was really popular, stuff like lando partially eclipse its role without the need for a mega slot and stalls now have char x, so it's a lot harder to rip them apart with zard y + pursuit. the lati twins are really common on offense and av azu is getting a lot of usage. as is chomp. offense can also revenge kill it with w/e electrics especially thundy and ground mon scarfers (particularly chomp). move it down to a.
i really don't see gengar as an a rank threat, it's just not at that level. before anyone brings up versatility gengar really has one good set: subwisp taunt. lo is sorta viable but not really that good, sball hits most of the stuff you need to already and you sac gengar's stallbreaking utility. anyways that's really what gengar is, a stallbreaker. it's still useful against offense but it can't really switch into much of anything and really isn't that strong. probably the best way to look at it is in comparison to the other a ranks. dnite is a strong dd sweeper that can sweep with just a couple things weakened/removed typically, sets up easily. it also has a very powerful cb set that can revenge kill faster threats with its espeed and utterly obliterate non-steels/fairies with outrage while having fire punch for ferro/skarm, and a specially defensive set that can tank the likes of lando and aegislash. ferro is a preeminent utility/defensive pokemon that handles top threats like mega gyarados, azumarill, and exca. hippo is a solid aegi check and handles many physical attackers well + electrics plus getting sr up really easily and being able to provide sand support for exca if desired. kyurem-b is an extremely strong wallbreaker that's really difficult to switch into and can also run a 'surprise' (not so much anymore) scarf set that is basically a bunch of 50/50's for offense every time it comes out. latios is the preeminent offensive defogger and offensive keldeo check. looking at this list gengar compares as a good stallbreaker that can maybe burn something and get off a couple weak sballs against offense. it just doesn't fit in.
sylv rly needs to move down, it's really just not good. clef pretty much outdoes its role as a defensive fairy-type that can actually deal with setup sweepers with unaware, sweep with cm, or w/e other shit like be a good bulky sr setter with fire blast to pop steels. in terms of a special sponge, despite its advantages chansey still eclipses it because it simply can't tank stuff as well/consistently. i don't think i've ever seen any good player use sylveon, really ever, either. it's b-/c+, take your pick.
mega charizard y is still alright but it's just not a+ anymore. it's still pretty damn threatening but the meta is overall just a lot more hostile to it than it was when it was really popular, stuff like lando partially eclipse its role without the need for a mega slot and stalls now have char x, so it's a lot harder to rip them apart with zard y + pursuit. the lati twins are really common on offense and av azu is getting a lot of usage. as is chomp. offense can also revenge kill it with w/e electrics especially thundy and ground mon scarfers (particularly chomp). move it down to a.
i really don't see gengar as an a rank threat, it's just not at that level. before anyone brings up versatility gengar really has one good set: subwisp taunt. lo is sorta viable but not really that good, sball hits most of the stuff you need to already and you sac gengar's stallbreaking utility. anyways that's really what gengar is, a stallbreaker. it's still useful against offense but it can't really switch into much of anything and really isn't that strong. probably the best way to look at it is in comparison to the other a ranks. dnite is a strong dd sweeper that can sweep with just a couple things weakened/removed typically, sets up easily. it also has a very powerful cb set that can revenge kill faster threats with its espeed and utterly obliterate non-steels/fairies with outrage while having fire punch for ferro/skarm, and a specially defensive set that can tank the likes of lando and aegislash. ferro is a preeminent utility/defensive pokemon that handles top threats like mega gyarados, azumarill, and exca. hippo is a solid aegi check and handles many physical attackers well + electrics plus getting sr up really easily and being able to provide sand support for exca if desired. kyurem-b is an extremely strong wallbreaker that's really difficult to switch into and can also run a 'surprise' (not so much anymore) scarf set that is basically a bunch of 50/50's for offense every time it comes out. latios is the preeminent offensive defogger and offensive keldeo check. looking at this list gengar compares as a good stallbreaker that can maybe burn something and get off a couple weak sballs against offense. it just doesn't fit in.
sylv rly needs to move down, it's really just not good. clef pretty much outdoes its role as a defensive fairy-type that can actually deal with setup sweepers with unaware, sweep with cm, or w/e other shit like be a good bulky sr setter with fire blast to pop steels. in terms of a special sponge, despite its advantages chansey still eclipses it because it simply can't tank stuff as well/consistently. i don't think i've ever seen any good player use sylveon, really ever, either. it's b-/c+, take your pick.
Possible idea for defensive mega charizard x?
Charizard
CharX@Charizardite X
Nature: Careful
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP/ 200 Sdef/ 56 Def
Will-O-Wisp/ Toxic
Flare Blitz/ Fire Punch/ Dragon Claw
Roost
Protect/ defog
This set utilizes the unpredictability of a mega, and can completely ruin a team that is not prepared. Toxic is for charizard x to stay in for a while, while WoW is for crippling offensive threats.
The attack move is a choice, depending on what you like.
Roost is for recovery, which is a must on this set and makes it even a considerable set.
The last move is for what you need more- to get rid of stealth rocks to keep in mega charizard in longer, or to protect to do more damage.
Thoughts?
Charizard
CharX@Charizardite X
Nature: Careful
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP/ 200 Sdef/ 56 Def
Will-O-Wisp/ Toxic
Flare Blitz/ Fire Punch/ Dragon Claw
Roost
Protect/ defog
This set utilizes the unpredictability of a mega, and can completely ruin a team that is not prepared. Toxic is for charizard x to stay in for a while, while WoW is for crippling offensive threats.
The attack move is a choice, depending on what you like.
Roost is for recovery, which is a must on this set and makes it even a considerable set.
The last move is for what you need more- to get rid of stealth rocks to keep in mega charizard in longer, or to protect to do more damage.
Thoughts?
Charizard X already has that exact set on its analysis, just with different EVs. Also this isn't the place to post sets for Pokemon, the Contributions & Corrections forum is designed for this. This thread is meant to discuss viable Pokemon and ranking them accordingly. Welcome to Smogon, by the way!
I disagree with Sylveon moving down, it's fine where it is. While Clefable basically outclasses any set involving Calm Mind (unless it's on BP), and Chansey is usually preferred on Stall, Sylveon is pretty much the cleric on choice for balanced teams, since you want something that can actually deal damage. Its typing is also a big advantage over Chansey and lets it act as an answer to a lot of top-tier threats the blob can't reliably deal with such as Mixed Kyurem-B without Iron Head, Deoxys-S, Mixed Thundurus, and Keldeo, all of which can be quite hard to switch into, as well as beating things Chansey is also there to counter such as Latios and Greninja. Sure, Clefable can deal with most of the things Sylveon beats and Chansey can't (unless it's unaware in which case Deo-S laughs at it as it spams Psycho Boost), but the added special bulk and power Sylveon has makes it a more reliable answer to some these. A few calcs to demonstrate this :
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (and yes, fully SpD Sylveon does exist and is used to counter Keldeo)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 207-244 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 204-242 (51.7 - 61.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 149-177 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
This all depends on the spread you want to run, obviously, but there's no denying that there are some hits Sylveon takes better. And it goes without saying that it hits way harder than Clefable, which really helps it counter what it's supposed to counter :
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 300-354 (92.8 - 109.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 216-254 (66.8 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 165-195 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 118-141 (39.3 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kyurem-B: 336-396 (85.9 - 101.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kyurem-B: 240-284 (61.3 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Sylveon does have a few perks over both Clefable and Chansey that stop it from being outclassed, and the fact that it's arguably the best answer to Deo-S, Mixed Thundurus, and Kyurem-B defenitely justifies its usage and gives it a solid niche in OU. I'd argue it for B+ rank before I would even think of wanting to drop it to B-, let alone C+. But as I said, it's perfectly fine where it is and doesn't need to be moved at all. Keep it in B.
On another note, (and I hope the only discussion that was disallowed was concerning it being moved to S,) I do agree with YZard being moved down to A. When you compare it to all the other offensive threats in A+, it kinda feels out of place : you have Greninja who give nearly no switch-ins for HO, Mawile and Pinsir who stomp all over bulky offense, Keldeo who can potentially dismantle Stall, Azu who basically acts as a wincon vs any team that doesn't have a direct counter to it, etc... all of these Pokemon give huge trouble to certain playstyles and types of teams and I honestly don't really feel like that's the case for YZard. I've never made a team that really struggled with it or gotten myself into a situation where I thought "right, next thing I need is a YZard check". This may be because of the way I teambuild, but it seems to me that YZard is one of those Pokemon teams just tend to beat automatically by trying to cover other threats (notably XZard). Sure, it is a big threat, and needs to be taken into account, but never seems to be the biggest threat to a specific team : if you're weak to it, you're probably even weaker to something else.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (and yes, fully SpD Sylveon does exist and is used to counter Keldeo)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 207-244 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 204-242 (51.7 - 61.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 149-177 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
This all depends on the spread you want to run, obviously, but there's no denying that there are some hits Sylveon takes better. And it goes without saying that it hits way harder than Clefable, which really helps it counter what it's supposed to counter :
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 300-354 (92.8 - 109.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 216-254 (66.8 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 165-195 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 118-141 (39.3 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kyurem-B: 336-396 (85.9 - 101.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kyurem-B: 240-284 (61.3 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Sylveon does have a few perks over both Clefable and Chansey that stop it from being outclassed, and the fact that it's arguably the best answer to Deo-S, Mixed Thundurus, and Kyurem-B defenitely justifies its usage and gives it a solid niche in OU. I'd argue it for B+ rank before I would even think of wanting to drop it to B-, let alone C+. But as I said, it's perfectly fine where it is and doesn't need to be moved at all. Keep it in B.
On another note, (and I hope the only discussion that was disallowed was concerning it being moved to S,) I do agree with YZard being moved down to A. When you compare it to all the other offensive threats in A+, it kinda feels out of place : you have Greninja who give nearly no switch-ins for HO, Mawile and Pinsir who stomp all over bulky offense, Keldeo who can potentially dismantle Stall, Azu who basically acts as a wincon vs any team that doesn't have a direct counter to it, etc... all of these Pokemon give huge trouble to certain playstyles and types of teams and I honestly don't really feel like that's the case for YZard. I've never made a team that really struggled with it or gotten myself into a situation where I thought "right, next thing I need is a YZard check". This may be because of the way I teambuild, but it seems to me that YZard is one of those Pokemon teams just tend to beat automatically by trying to cover other threats (notably XZard). Sure, it is a big threat, and needs to be taken into account, but never seems to be the biggest threat to a specific team : if you're weak to it, you're probably even weaker to something else.
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Jacks0n
formerly grassycow
Some calcs:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 220-261 (65.8 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Once skarm is weakened it cant stand up to weavile at +2
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 421-499 (99.2 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
This thing breaks through mandy aswell
Those are just some, but the rest of stall is handled pretty easily. Although weavile can do a number to stall, its best against offence, if it gets up a sd, its pretty much gg. But even withought a sd, weavile can pretty much single handedly take out offence when bish/keldeo/terrak/loom are gone.
Attachments
Taunt + Destiny Bond + Shadow Ball + Sludge Wave with LO is a great set that does a lot of things for offensive teams:
- Great stallbreaker, as no matter what stall does one Pokemon at least is going down, unless they are willing to let a lot of their Pokemon get severely weakened in order to stall Gengar out of LO damage.
- Checks Pokemon such as CM Clefable, Landorus, Mega Venusaur, and more, with help from teammates sometimes (Eg. Specs Keldeo locked into Sacred Sword).
- Can remove any problematic threat with Destiny Bond, sometimes even netting surprise kills that let other Pokemon sweep. SubPunch Mega Mawile giving you troubles? No worries, Destiny Bond Gengar is on it. Bisharp is threatening to fuck up your Keldeo-less offensive team after your Latios used Defog? No big deal, Gengar can handle it.
- Its fast Taunt helps a lot in keeping hazards down, which is appreciated by offensive Pokemon such as Talonflame, Thundurus, Mega Charizard X, and Dragonite. It also makes sure that nothing can set up on it, which is great on offensive team that can't afford to let Pokemon set up.
- Decent revenge killer, doing 68.1 - 80.8% to Keldeo with Sludge Wave, one of the bulkiest offensive Pokemon, which is not bad at all.
- Great check to Baton Pass teams.
- Can act as a spinblocker and Defog preventer in a pinch, which is very useful for Deo-D offense, and unlike Aegislash it can't be taken advantage by fast Defog users such as Zapdos and Mandibuzz.
As for Sylveon, Albacore already explained why it's a great cleric for balanced teams, and it's ability to handle Pokemon that Clefable can't, such as LO Thundurus, Greninja, LO Deoxys-S, LO Tornadus-T, and Mega Manectric, as well as way superior power and ability to hit through Subs make it a B rank Pokemon.
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The problem that i find with zard x 'checks', is that they aren't solid checks at all. This is because of the wide array of sets that zard can run. There is the 'standard' bulky DD, they sometimes use a more offensive speed orientated DD set, there is bulky WoW roost set. Finally there is, what i think, its best set, being SD tailwind set. This set is an overall contributor to the team that breaks walls with ease that i have been seeing creeping up more and more on the ladder. Furthermore, you don't know if it is zard x or y until it mega's up. So it is hard to say if you should switch in a lando t or a sylveon. Sure you can have an estimate of if it is zard x or y because of team synergy, but because of the meta becoming more physically offensive, i feel it is harder to safely say that i am over 50% that it will be a zard y for example. In my opinion this is zard's niche.
And in regards to zard x being a counter, (252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Mega Charizard X: 158-187 (44 - 52%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO)
That is the common tank zard set as in the smogon analysis. which gets 2 shotted buy focus blast with a teency bit of prior damage. and want can tankzard do in return anyway
0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 177-208 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Which does a ton of damage, however not enough to 2hko zard y. This is why i think zard y is pretty deserving of its place in a+
OH yeah, in regards to AV Azu. I presume the set you are talking about is 252 HP and 252+ Atk.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill in Sun: 126-148 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- 72.5% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill in Sun: 126-148 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- 72.5% chance to 3HKO
EDIT
I didn't really know the standard AV azu set, thanks to TFL for telling me it. Calcs are as follows
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill in Sun: 97-114 (28.1 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 188-222 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Still killing it after switch in and rocks
After rocks or even with some prior damage/luck, you don't actually need to predict the azu switch in.
Finally, like stated by a lot of my predecessors, zard y is a wall breaker, it should be nuking pokes with STAB 110 BP fire blasts in the sun then gtfo. There is no reason for a zard y to stay in on a thundy i in the first place, neither with a garchomp. Zard y is not like zard x where it sweeps 4-6 mons with the DD set, zard y is supposed to just weaken the opponent team and be a pain to switch in on, not try to go for the full 6-0 body bag straight away. It punches holes so that another mon can sweep, not the other way around.
Quick side note, for the lati twins, it still wrecks them.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 126-148 (41.7 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Considering that is latias, the more def one, that proves a statement. And if that latias can't roost off, dead next time it tries to switch in, granted SR is up
I kinda disagree with this. I believe that zard y still has its nuke ability and its still a very apt wall breaker which is extremely impossibly to play against. Stuff like lando i can be switched in on by spdef rotom w (252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 139-165 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) while zard y still can put a tonne of pressure on teams from the get go.
And in regards to zard x being a counter, (252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Mega Charizard X: 158-187 (44 - 52%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO)
That is the common tank zard set as in the smogon analysis. which gets 2 shotted buy focus blast with a teency bit of prior damage. and want can tankzard do in return anyway
0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 177-208 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Which does a ton of damage, however not enough to 2hko zard y. This is why i think zard y is pretty deserving of its place in a+
OH yeah, in regards to AV Azu. I presume the set you are talking about is 252 HP and 252+ Atk.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill in Sun: 126-148 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- 72.5% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill in Sun: 126-148 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- 72.5% chance to 3HKO
EDIT
I didn't really know the standard AV azu set, thanks to TFL for telling me it. Calcs are as follows
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill in Sun: 97-114 (28.1 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 188-222 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Still killing it after switch in and rocks
After rocks or even with some prior damage/luck, you don't actually need to predict the azu switch in.
Finally, like stated by a lot of my predecessors, zard y is a wall breaker, it should be nuking pokes with STAB 110 BP fire blasts in the sun then gtfo. There is no reason for a zard y to stay in on a thundy i in the first place, neither with a garchomp. Zard y is not like zard x where it sweeps 4-6 mons with the DD set, zard y is supposed to just weaken the opponent team and be a pain to switch in on, not try to go for the full 6-0 body bag straight away. It punches holes so that another mon can sweep, not the other way around.
Quick side note, for the lati twins, it still wrecks them.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 126-148 (41.7 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Considering that is latias, the more def one, that proves a statement. And if that latias can't roost off, dead next time it tries to switch in, granted SR is up
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Sylveon has more in common with Chansey than with Clefable realy. Clef can do almost everything, from walling set up sweepers to sweeping itself and everything in between its the most versatile mon in the meta while Sylveon can fullfil one single roll and thats cleric/wishpassing so it will compete with Chansey for a team slot most of the time, or at least it would if Chansey wasnt completely worthless for balanced teams.
Thats imo the one big niche that Sylveon holds, Cleric/Wishpasser on balanced teams. Chansey is not an option for that and Clef is arguably worse in that specific role, it doesnt hit as hard, it cant take hits that well and it has so many better options available. Its much harder for Clef to find the time for wishpassing due to its lower bulk. C+ is imo to low for Sylveon as it isnt outclassed in its role, B- would be ok i guess but i think it deserves to stay in B.
Gengar to A- would be ok imo. I ve tested it recently and while it wasnt bad it wasnt all that good either. Against offense the only thing it usually did was to burn something and against stall it was far less usefull than i had expected due to its non existent bulk, Chansey aside pretty much every stall mon has enough attacking power to kill its sub and force it out, there are better Wallbreakers available.
Charizard... well i dont feel like going through the arguments that have been made on that topic so many times already so ill just say it should stay where it is as it is still a great mon when used correctly.
Thats imo the one big niche that Sylveon holds, Cleric/Wishpasser on balanced teams. Chansey is not an option for that and Clef is arguably worse in that specific role, it doesnt hit as hard, it cant take hits that well and it has so many better options available. Its much harder for Clef to find the time for wishpassing due to its lower bulk. C+ is imo to low for Sylveon as it isnt outclassed in its role, B- would be ok i guess but i think it deserves to stay in B.
Gengar to A- would be ok imo. I ve tested it recently and while it wasnt bad it wasnt all that good either. Against offense the only thing it usually did was to burn something and against stall it was far less usefull than i had expected due to its non existent bulk, Chansey aside pretty much every stall mon has enough attacking power to kill its sub and force it out, there are better Wallbreakers available.
Charizard... well i dont feel like going through the arguments that have been made on that topic so many times already so ill just say it should stay where it is as it is still a great mon when used correctly.
If you say it can't do anything outside of burning things against offense then you definitely haven't seen a Taunt + Destiny Bond set in action, which almost always takes one Pokemon against such teams, and sometimes even two. As for stall teams, Gengar can't take advantage of only Chansey, but Mega Venusaur and Clefable too, as their attacks can't break Gengar's Subs.Baharoth said:
As long as the Gengar team has SR up, stall struggles quite a bit against both sets from my experience, because Taunt + WoW shuts down most defensive Pokemon, and most defensive Fire-types are very easy to wear down with SR + Shadow Ball. It can't single handedly dismantle stall obviously, as any well built team shouldn't lose to a single popular and dangerous threat, but it can consistently soften them up or KO something, thus making an opening for other Pokemon to sweep.
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I can vouch for alexwolf with the Dbond taunt set. I've used it in the past with much success. It's actually pretty fantastic as an anti-lead, stallbreaker, and a pretty good attacker with sludge wave and shadow ball alone. I'm all for Gengar staying in at A unless something derails that in terms of the meta or a convincing opinion on it.
Megavoir: 68/65 defences with 100 speed. Megacham: 60/85 defences with 100 speed. Both get destroyed by any physical attacker that outspeeds them, which is plenty (particularly with priority). That's always going to limit their use. Personally, if I see them in team preview, they do not raise my fear.
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