Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

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-> No Higher than B+
Im lumping these two together because they have really similar traits. These two Pokemon are being way overrated in this thread. Both of these Pokemon have some really glaring flaws that everyone seems to be overlooking. Everyone is saying they are good against 'offence' but not sand, yet literally 50% of all offensive teams are sand. Sand stops both of these dead in their tracks, and with sand so common they are limited in how they perform in match-ups. They are both really good vs magne-pinsir, which is becoming really popular right now, but sand is still more popular and it literally makes them almost useless. People are also saying they are really bad vs defensive teams, although that is also not true. Everytime they switch in their chansey for example, these two can volt switch and bring in something that beats chansey, forcing it out. Rocks and volt switch damage, that occurs from constant forcing out and pressure wears defensive links such as chansey down. They are not great vs defensive teams, but they certaintly put in work, unlike contrary belief. B+ seems good, because they are both great, great assets to volt-turn teams and are great against offence (not sand) and provide a lot of momentum vs all team styles bar sand offence, but the fact that sand offence is so common stops them from being compared to the likes of kyurem-black for example.

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-> Stay in S
I am going to try my best to explain why keldeo deserves S.

S rank is Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

Keldeo fits this bill perfectly. 'Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame' - this is keldeo. 'They can perform one role extremely well' - Keldeo is by far the best specs abuser in OU. Its ridiculous power lets it 2ohko pretty much the whole unresisted tier, and even 2ohko someof the pokemon that resist. It can get past its checks/counters with a change up of its moveset by itself, not something many pokemon can claim. It provides perfect resistances for offensive/balanced teams, that it makes use of with its bulk. Being a good switch in to things like tyranitar, bisharp and heatran. 'Their use has low risk involved and high risk exerted' - This is keldeo, there is pretty much no risk in spamming its stabs, and the pokemon that come in can be beaten by keldeo itself. For example a scald burn on mega venu, then the next switch in a 2ohko with hp flying. It has high reward, smashing things with its crazy powerful stabs, and rewarding the team with some desperately needed resistances. 'These pokemon have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits' - Keldeo does have switch-ins, and pokemon that can KO it and are faster, but its switch-ins can be beaten by keldeo itself with a change up of moveset, it has desperately needed resistances for offence/balanced, great power, good speed and can also perform some other sets like sub-cm or even scarf. I think keldeo needs less support than zard x for example, and has an even greater reward. Going to tag Jukain because he made some really good points of why this unicorn deserves S.



Things I support:

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-> A

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-> A+

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-> A+

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-> A+

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-> B+

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-> B+

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-> B+

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-> B+
 
You can't just say the same thing again and then bold B- at the end, it doesn't help your argument at all. Could you tell me WHY I would use this over Excadrill and Starmie.
That's very petty of you to complain about the bolding of letters lol. Really dude?

I was not repeating the same thing over and over. I was simply differentiating Mega Scizor from Forretress as it was brought up as completely outclassing Forretress, which is not true by the means of providing entry hazards, rapid spinning and not costing a mega slot (I do apologize for regurgitating the same shit over again smh)
The reason for using Forretress over Excadrill and Starmie has already been stated (wouldn't want to say that same shit over again)

Adding on to this, Zard X can run different moves to get past some of its checks without detracting from its overall effectiveness (like Outrage for Quagsire or Earthquake for Heatran) and can even Wallbreak with an SD set.

Honestly if Zard X isn't S rank then no other Mega deserves it.

EDIT:
Forretress shouldn't be ranked. It can't get past Gengar without using lol Payback and Gengar still cripples it with Will-O-Wisp or Shadow Ball (which it no longer resists).

0 Atk Forretress Payback (100 BP) vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 200-236 (74.6 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 Atk Forretress Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 200-236 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 Atk burned Forretress Payback (100 BP) vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 100-118 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 Atk burned Forretress Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 100-118 (38.3 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

148 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 120-142 (33.9 - 40.2%) -- 39.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 129-153 (36.5 - 43.3%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 168-199 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

148 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 184-217 (52.1 - 61.4%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 198-234 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 257-304 (72.8 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With that logic you could argue Greninja shouldn't be ranked as it can't get past pink blobs. Team support is mandatory when using Forretress effectively.

The problem with this statement is that due to the fact Forretress can't recover on its own, it NEEDS that wish support in order to stick around if you plan to keep it alive for long, which is why it's unranked, along with the fact that it has no good offensive capabilities whatsoever. Even Ferrothorn has a better offensive presence than Forretress, AND has a recovery option with Leech Seed. Skarmory himself can set up hazards, remove them AND heal itself with Roost to gain back Sturdy.

I don't see Forretress being ranked higher than the likes of Thundurus-T, Infernape, Hydreigon and Mega Blastoise. Forretress is outclassed and doesn't deserve to be B- . If anything, D is perfect for it (and I'm being super generous) since it has Sturdy, can set up hazards and rapid spin others, and can Volt Switch out.
The most common sets of the most common entry hazard removers (latis, Excadrill) don't utilize recovery either. I fail to see your argument in that. While those aforementioned pokemon clearly have a way better offensive presence than Forretress, Forretresses superior bulk, hazard support and acesss to volt switch give it a nice niche on offensive teams.
 
If Gardy is at +0, she needs to pray Focus Miss hits twice in a row (~50% chance), and if she runs HP Ground or Thunderbolt (those exist), she won't do shit to Air Balloon Heatran especially if it has Flash Cannon. She has 4MSS because she'd really like to use Hyper Voice, Psyshock, Thunderbolt, Focus Miss, Calm Mind, WoW and Taunt on the same moveset... but she can't.

It really sounds like you have limited experience using M-Gard. I have never once thought "I wish I had Thunderbolt right now". Calm Mind is a waste of a moveslot on something so easily revenge killed. You really only need to choose between Taunt and Will-O-Wisp. I would not call that terrible 4MSS.

Gardevoir doesn't have to pray Focus Blast hits twice in a row. You can miss twice and still beat any Heatran not carrying Flash Cannon.

If you use Heatran to counter Gardevoir, the majority of the time you'll end up with a dead Heatran and a healthy Gardevoir which can now freely spam Hyper Voice to punch holes in the rest of your team.
 
I can't believe nobody has mentioned this yet: Swampert is currently Unranked. While I don't think I'm good enough to assign a rank to it, saying that every other water/ground typed pokemon is on the list, I believe that it should be ranked at least SOMEWHERE.
That's actually the reason Swampert doesn't have a rank; every other Water/Ground type on this list, (Whiscash isn't ranked either btw,) has a niche that Swamp doesn't. Quagsire has reliable recovery and Unaware, which, as shown by Clefable, is a really great ability to have in a meta where 3 of the best Pokemon are Dragon Dancers. Gastrodon has reliable recovery and Strom Drain, which allows it to punish Pokemon like Greninja and Rotom-W for getting too trigger happy with the Hyrdo Pumps. Seismitoad is ranked because it has Swift Swim + Electric and Paralysis immunity, which is damn good in a Thundurus infested metagame and is the only reason it is ranked at all, so we have to wait until November for Mega Swampert to outclass him. Basically Swampert is entirely nicheless in this current meta. It doesn't have recovery, Unaware, Storm Drain, or Swift Swim, (yet,) and its raw stats are not enough to make it good in this meta.
 
I will attempt to not turn this thread into complete AIDS by changing my previous nomination of Forretress from B-rank--->C Rank
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C RANK
lol nobody is agreeing with me and I figure it's a lost cause at this point. No way in hell is it D rank though
IIRC, the main reason it's unranked is the fact that Ferro outclasses it. It does hold a niche of having Rapid Spin and Toxic Spikes, though, so I believe it should be D Rank - it's not a big enough niche to warrant anything higher tbh.
You also need to remember other pokemon in Ferro's team can be substituted to fill those roles, as well.
 
Ok so with all these nominations of utterly crap stuff I'm going to explain why we reaaally do not need more garbage in the viability thread. I'll start with DarkGengars nomination of Forretress.

First off Forretress sucks, plain and simple. I'm not even trying to be an ass about it, it's just the reality of the situation it will find itself in. Yeah it spins, it throws up hazards, pivots into stuff but every single thing that it does as far as OU goes, it sucks at or is so outclassed to the point that it should never be considered a legitimate option, even for D rank standards. I would like to also point out that Forretress, kind of just sits there. It's not a threat in any real shape or form, hell, this isn't even a threat from a support standpoint. It takes way too much support for Forretrees to truly function and I'm against ranking this at all.

I can't believe nobody has mentioned this yet: Swampert is currently Unranked. While I don't think I'm good enough to assign a rank to it, saying that every other water/ground typed pokemon is on the list, I believe that it should be ranked at least SOMEWHERE.
1. you don't have to be "good enough" to give a suggestion. Give some solid reasoning behind it and we'll be glad to hear you out. 2. the typing has nothing to do with its ranking, simply how it functions in OU 3. It doesn't function well in OU.

It's a very passive rock setter that has no real niche in the OU environment. It only sponges a couple of hits from things like Excadrill if you went defensive but I don't really see how that warrants something to be ranked. Its typing is nice and all, but I rather just use Quagsire and I don't even like Quagsire lol. Sort of ninja'd but w/e it was explained better by TheTraininator than myself anyways.

So with that being said here is why I think the logic of putting stuff to D rank is a waste of time in most cases from what I'm seeing by these recent nominations. There is plenty of lower tier stuff that falls under the role of D. For example, Aromatissee can fall under this rank simply cause it's one of the only clerics that isn't completely screwed over by things such as stallbreaker Mew, so it has a niche in stall to be able to provide constant support. The issue is that it's suuuuper niche and we all know that's not really something we should be putting in to D for. If you're going to rank something into D at least let it be something remotely worthwhile. Then again the D rank is the outcasts of OU that nobody cares about so yeah those are just my thoughts on all that. Maybe we can finally focus on some relevant stuff.
 
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Maybe Im just some out-of-the-loop asshole, but I just cant see lando-T as A+, It just seems too slow, lacking recovery, item reliant, and facing compittion from gliscor and regular lando. Im sure a good argument could turn me over, I just find gliscor better.

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This thing should stay A+, it's one of the most consisantly good pokemon in the meta game, can easily set of 2 DD's of a switch/taking a hit due to insane bulk, yes it fares poorly against Stall, but there is like 1000 things that own stall currently.

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One of the best glue-mons in the game, checks some of the best shit if the meta, has a decent offensive set, and has awsome utility in leech seed/sleep powder.

heracross and gardevoir could rise, they are just amazing right now. mew is great too, that should rise as well. Starmie needs it's spiky ass back in OU allready, rise it until people start using it.

Manaphy and garchomp are both way too vital of threat to drop, scarf-chomp is still one of the best revengers in the game, while manaphy is bulky as heck, and tail-glow fucks up most things not named chansey.
 
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for A+
With no actual safe switch-ins, this thing is pretty ridiculous. Non-Victini stall auto-loses to it, balance and bulky offense struggle greatly against it, and it does fairly decently against offense.
It's also really hilarious that it can trace Excadrill's Sand Rush pre-mega-evo, outspeed if Timid, and cleanly OHKO with Focus Blast.
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for B-
It beats Sand Offense, which is currently the most common playstyle, and destroys stall with only a Life Orb. While it has very limited switch-in opportunities (VoltTurn support is really great for it), it can force out mons like Landorus, Excadrill, Terrakion, Heatran, Tyranitar, Mamoswine and more, and literally nothing can take a hit from it (Azumarill is beaten if it switches in with SR) except for the really rare Chesnaught.

Other stuff I agree with/care about
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->A+
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->A-
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->A-
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->B+
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->B
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->A- (rain offense is a really unprepared for and underappreciated playstyle)
 
The most common sets of the most common entry hazard removers (latis, Excadrill) don't utilize recovery either. I fail to see your argument in that. While those aforementioned pokemon clearly have a way better offensive presence than Forretress, Forretresses superior bulk, hazard support and acesss to volt switch give it a nice niche on offensive teams.

That's because Excadrill and the Lati twins don't NEED recovery to get their jobs done because they have an OFFENSIVE PRESENCE! Excadrill can shoot off powerful Earthquakes, either with Mold Breaker to do damage to Rotom-W and Gengar (the only real spin-blocker left in OU), or hit extremely hard and fast under the sand with Sand Rush. Meanwhile, the Lati twins have Draco Meteor that decimates anything that doesn't resist it, especially when Life Orb'd. All three of these Pokemon are in pretty good speed tiers for what they do as well.

Forretress...has Volt Switch? Gyro Ball? lol
 
Forretress and Swampert are both heaping piles of dicks. Decent defenses, but no recovery, subpar offenses, shit speed, blahblahblah OUTCLASSED blahblahblah... Forre maybe deserves D cuz rapid spin but the only thing Swampert has going for it atm is its typing, which would make him decent enough if not for being worse than every other water ground on the list. No niche whatsoever atm I'm afraid, better wait until oras before we see this fucker anywhere near ou
 
Even for an outsider of the XY OU metagame such as me, Forretress being unranked seems logical. Its viability in BW OU was mostly related to Rapid Spin, both because it's a rare move, making the hazards Forretress can set up (All of them by then) very difficult to remove, and also because Forretress could know it, a unique niche it can still hold. It also has a very slow Volt Switch that can let teammates switch without taking damage, a move that is helped by Sturdy and its Bug/Steel typing (Not much can OHKO it without resorting to Fire). It is, however, too passive given its job, being almost complete Taunt bait, while also having a very nasty 4MSS, not having a very valuable move no matter the set. Oh, and it has no recovery, so you either have to resort to Wish or it will, at best, Rapid Spin or set up hazards once on average.

Forretress was nerfed a lot in XY, though it was not affected directly. Defog being buffed and having lots of Pokemon that can learn it made removing entry hazards (Particularly Spikes and Toxic Spikes) drastically easier to remove, which in turn made Forretress's multiple hazard setter and spinner roles noticeably less significant. The Steel nerf was another big hit for it as it's suddenly twice as weak against spinblockers, of which it could not beat by itself. This is without mentioning that the flaws it had in BW still exist, making it an underwhelming Pokemon overall.

Forretress is heavily outclassed in hazard removing (Defoggers exist, and Excadrill and Starmie can both beat spinblockers and have offensive presence) and worthless in hazard setting (Stealth Rock is pretty much the only worthwhile hazard, and it's learned by Ferrothorn and Skarmory, among others, and SR was not the reason you would have used Forretress anyway in the past). Why would you use it?
 
Ok so even though i made a post saying how you should talk about the Pokemon i mentioned unless you want to be ignored you still have to make me the bad guy? Ok then, any post talking about Forretress or any other shitty Pokemon getting ranked or getting a minor rank change will be deleted. We have much more important stuff to deal with right now.
 
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Maybe Im just some out-of-the-loop asshole, but I just cant see lando-T as A+, It just seems too slow, lacking recovery, item reliant, and facing compittion from gliscor and regular lando. Im sure a good argument could turn me over, I just find gliscor better.

I don't understand what you're getting at here. First off, what Gliscor and Lando-I do are completely different from what Lando-T is good at doing. Gliscor is a pure defensive wall that's known for toxic-stalling, while Lando-I is a special-attacking wallbreaker. Lando-T is an offensive pivot with the capability to use its Intimidate ability to force physical threats out, and can either deploy Stealth rocks on the field or U-Turn out thanks to that Intimidate. It can also run an extremely-effective Scarf set that can throw many players off since they expect Lando-T to be more defensive. I think A+ is just fine for him.

Also, isn't EVERY Pokemon in the game "item-reliant"?...
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This thing should stay A+, it's one of the most consisantly good pokemon in the meta game, can easily set of 2 DD's of a switch/taking a hit due to insane bulk, yes it fares poorly against Stall, but there is like 1000 things that own stall currently.

Are you kidding? Mega Gyarados CAN stallbreak. For one thing, it can use Taunt, which disrupts Stall teams from using their support movepools. It also has Mold Breaker, which breaks Quagsire's Unaware and Rotom-W's Levitate, decimating both of these fools with Waterfall and Earthquake after a DD, respectively. Water Absorb and Storm Drain on Pokemon like Vaporeon and Gastrodon are also destroyed, which means Mega Gyarados can freely use Waterfall without having to worry about those two abilities.
 
Agree with Hippowdon going down, it's not as good as Tyranitar as a sand setter on sand offense mainly because Tyranitar has Pursuit trapping abilities and offensive presence plus a lot viable sets and can bird spam with Scarf. Hippowdon can still be useful on balanced sand/stall though but even then it still faces competition from other physical walls like Landorus-T. Even A- might be too good as it's just a sitting duck because EQ and Slack Off are pretty much mandatory and EQ is so easy to take advantage of. Toxic and Rock Slide is nice but then it can't phase stuff so it has a case of 4MMS. Also with Aegislash gone idrk why you would use it and Gliscor is better as a SpDef wall anyways. Hippowdon for B+
 
Mew honestly does deserve A+. Despite not being used a lot, I still consider it at the same level as the OU giants, like Terrakion and Latios. All teams struggle with dealing with it, and it's generally such a low risk high reward Pokemon that deserves to go up. I definitely think Garchomp is worse than it was. Now that Aegi is gone, I personally think its suicide lead set is a lot worse, considering Terrakion does it better with Taunt + better Speed + better coverage. Chomp is by no means bad, but it's kinda a jack of all trades master of none mon like Rotom-W. It's fast, but not super fast, powerful, but not out of belief, and bulky, but not extraordinarily so. It has a lot of good sets, but they all face some sort of competition. I think a drop is totally reasonable. Charizard-X imo seems to be underrated here. DD is still a monster, SD is scary for stall, and bulky wow is a nightmare for all teams. However, I think that it's not as good as Azumarill or Thundurus, two great S ranked mons. I think the ubiquity of water types now convinces be to drop it, but I'm not so sure.

I'm kinda torn with Mega ttar, but I'm leaning towards A. Bulky waters handle it very well, and it really hates how common Will-o-Wisp is now. It's still extremely bulky, but its relatively poor typing and Speed make me lean towards dropping it. MegaDos however deserves A+. It's extremely bulky, like Tyranitar, but has the ability to make use of its non mega form. It has Intimidate + a typing that synergizes well with MegaDos' typing, and thus lets it create mindgames. I guess competition with Azu could possibly merit a drop, but I think it's the best dder in the tier, and its ranking should reflect that. Btw, Mold Breaker is great for ignoring stuff like Unaware. Heracross could totally rise, since it makes non-Doublade stall basically impossible. It's ridiculously hard to switch into, and can perform ok against offense thanks to its great bulk. It's huge flying weakness may keep it in A, but it really could go either way.

Gardevoir could be an A+ mon. It's ridiculously hard to switch into, due to its power and coverage. It is incredibly physically frail, but so is ninja, and it's clearly A+ (sorry dice...). I know ninja has the speed to improve its time in ou, but it still has to deal with a multitude of checks and counters, which Gardevoir does not struggle with in the least. It's borderline A+/A. Venusaur could potentially move down, but I still think it's the best Keldeo and Azumarill answer on bo teams. Its stalling days have kind of worn out, but it's still a cool glue mon that always beats two S rankers and usually beats one other. I think hating sand offense could warrant a drop, but it doesn't really hate it that much, considering it beats most members of the team. I need more arguments for its drop to consider agreeing. Ferro absolutely should rise; it's a spectacular pivot that is incredibly hard to 2hko with neutral attacks. It checks a lot of stuff, like bluebunny, and really should rise.

Hippowdon could move down, but it'd be weird to see that when we're hyping sand offense so much. However, it does only have one set, which really makes it predictable. I think it's really similar to Skarmory; they're both really easy to use/understand walls. However, hippo has offensive presence + better mixed bulk + the ability to support a whole type of team, so I think it actually belongs one rank ahead of Skarm. I see a lot of support for it dropping, so I'll try to convince myself, but i still dk. Lando-T is pretty cool now; its scarf set has been gaining a lot of popularity. It's able to rk a bunch of unsuspecting stuff, while still supporting the team w/ intimidate. It could go A+, but the Azu weakness is tough. I guess I'm ignoring its other sets, so when you include dd and physically defensive, A+ sounds reasonable. Suicune definitely should rise, since it provides a bulky water, a status absorber, and a wincondition on stall all in one mon. It's definitely on par with bro, and should be ranked as such.

Raikou, I'll admit, is being overhyped. Yes, it has an excellent speed tier, but its bulk and power are only average, depending on its item. I guess with the rise of birdspam it's better, but I'm not sure it's on par with pretty awesome mons like Alomomola and Kabutops. AV is worn down easy, CS is easily handled once locked into a move due to electrics common resistances + its weak coverage, and CM has trouble boosting + beating special walls. I don't adamantly opposite it, but I'm not convinced. Yeah it's really cool on rain teams, and can check a bunch of stuff with av, so a rise isn't unreasonably at all. Manectric is similar to Raikou, but is much faster and physically bulky in exchange for special bulk and power. Thus, it's able to check birdspam easier, as well as outspeed stuff like adamant mega dactyl + ninja. I think it could rise. Dactyl is a really neat stallbreaker with AA + AT, and also has a cool all out attacking set. It checks bird spam really well, and is just a pretty cool mon. A rise is totally justified.

Scizor should move down. CB is cool, but its prepared for without thinking. Most of the time I'd rather the special bulk + roost afforded by using its mega evolution. It isn't bad, it's just pretty mediocre. I think manaphy belongs in A- for its two really good sets (TailDance and CM) and one ok set (TD + 3 attacks). The first set beats all stall teams w/o Ferrothorn and handles offense decently, the last set is able to sweep late game ok, and its cm set is very similar to Suicune's; it trades bulk for power, speed, and generally more reliable recovery. I think it's one of the most underrated mons around, and should stay A-. Zam definitely could go up, since it handles weather marvelously. It is very frail, but trace is so cool, and it's speed is just fantastic. Use protect on it, and you'll be able to beat ninja, which is awesome.

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Lucario is a lot worse than Kingdra, so just based on that it should drop. It has severe 4MSS, since Iron Tail and Ice Punch are both needed to beat its common checks and counters, and it wouldn't dare give up close combat, extreme speed, or swords dance for them. it's a niche sweeper, and b- is more appropriate for it. Starmie's bulky set is pretty epic, and its offensive set, while weak, has great coverage, reliable recovery, and analytic. Rapid Spin is what makes it worth using, but its awesome Speed tier, reflect type, and two great abilities make it really nice. It easily deserves B+, and I could even be talked into A-. Celebi is likewise cool in OU. Idk if it's as solid as kingdra, but let's look. It has reliable recovery, a water resistance, access to nasty plot, sr, and heal bell, and solid all around stats. It checks azu, can be offensive or defensive, and can also bp boosts to its teammates. Outside of the ground/water/fighting resistances, its typing sucks, but i think it could potentially rise.

Staraptor is a very interesting pokemon. Its immensely powerful, at the cost of mediocre speed and no bulk. It has great three move coverage, utility in u-turn and final gambit, and the ability to rk stuff with a scarf or just one shot everything with a band. It has few switch ins, and is just a really sweet pokemon. Its ability to support lucha/talon/pinsir is just the icing on the cake. B is totally possible for it. Victini is absolutely one of my favorite pokemon now. Checking cham, garde, and chary is really cool, and it can do that while still hitting ridiculously hard. It also has band/special/scarf/tr sets, which are all cool. It deserves b+ easily, and like w/ starmie, I could be talked into A-. Magnezone is also pretty great now, since ferro is on the rise, and skarm and zor are still spectacular. Removing them for dragons and fairies is really great, and zone is the only mon that does what it can do. with a scarf, it also checks bird offense relatively well, and with magnet rise and an air balloon it checks drill well. It should go up absolutely. I find it laughable that it was once C rank.

I know a lot of people adamantly defend mega chomp, but I really don't see it. With the removal of Aegi, Hera is just so much better as a wall breaker. Yes, it can't go mixed, but it still beats physical walls like Quagsire + skarm. Mega chomp is bulky and powerful, but extreme competition as a wallbreaking mega (hera, garde, cham, chary, etc) as well as being outperformed by its normal forme in all but one role makes me think it should drop. Also ik toed wasn't on your list alex, but I'm just gonna bring it up. Rain is really good now, and toed is the sole reason why it's able to perform. Toed has an excellent offensive and supportive movepool, and good enough stats to work with. When ranking toed you really have to think about rain's effectiveness as a whole, and i think rain as a whole is better than alomomola based stall. Maybe i'm looking at it wrong/am using bad logic, but i think in whole politoed deserves a-, like diggersby + manaphy + skarmory. Also, I agree with Crawdaunt rising. Yes, it's super frail and slow, but it's incredibly hard to switch into. It appreciates sand's popularity rising and venu's popularity declining, and it also didn't like maw or aegi. The meta has shifted a bit in its favor, and tbh i don't think it ever should have dropped in the first place.
 
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Ok so even though i made a post saying how you should talk about the Pokemon i mentioned unless you want to be ignored you still have to make me the bad guy? Ok then, any post talking about Forretress or any other shitty Pokemon getting ranked or getting a minor rank change will be deleted. We have much more important stuff to deal with right now.
I don't think ur the bad guy bb <3

Anyway Magnezone is literally jesus atm, with the banning of Mawile a metric fuckton of pressure has been lifted from Skarmory and Ferro and u see these fuckers everywhere, and p much the only steels Mag has to fear now are Heatran and Bishart at +2, shieet - not even Exca can get past this bad boy w/air balloon and magnet rise. The least niche and arguably most effective trapper atm, does its job consistently and has more than just one or two sets. Magnezone for B+ pls
 
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Personally I am not sold on mega gardevoir for A+, it is slow before it mega evolves and has only average speed after doing so. It also dies to just about any physical attack. Sure the dragon immunity is nice but it has somewhat poor defensive typing overall. gard also has to rely on focus miss overly much. I think A is the better fit for it.

Charizard Y is being discussed for dropping down to A but i find it far more threatening than mega gard. It has become taboo to mention the unpredictability opponents are faced with when they see a charizard in your preview but it really is a factor. besides this both its offensive and defensive sets are good. offense is a nuke that can destroy water types and the defensive set does well vs landorus I and both of them have a very powerful and very spammable fire blast. it can also switch in to a lot of things pretty easily because despite the SR weakness it has really good defensive typing. Sure charizard needs somewhat specific team support but the support it needs is standard stuff, hazard control and a pursuit trapper which can be easily supplied by pokemon that are great individually and work well with charizard such as tyranitar, bisharp, excadrill and latios.
 
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-> A
All three of these Pokemon lose effectiveness the faster paced the opponent's team is. Mew becomes practically useless against one of its few counters and can even find itself in trouble against slower stall teams that stack Regenerator mons. Doublade and other random Hera and/or Garde counters have picked up some usage on stall teams, which is something neither Mega likes, because stall is the very thing they're being used to break. All three are undoubtedly good, but none are giving off that top tier feel to me.

How do I make very long posts? '-'
 
I'm supporting Starmie for B+, at first with the Aegislash ban I only saw it moving up one rank but look where we are now XD, I think we can all agree we underestimated it when aegislash got banned but we were proven wrong by it being able to beat all spin blockers in the tier (that are relevant), able to beat excadrill (non sand rush) 1 on 1 its competition for that rapid spin spot and nobody wants to switch into an analytic choice sec starmie without taking a chunk of their health. We know that Starmie has amazing coverage with boltbeam making switch ins few and it can even bypass pursuit trappers like bisharp for example with reflect type sets something the lati twins wish they had, if it is running natural cure as its ability it doesn't care about switching into status inducer so can be switched into a predicted wow/toxic and just switch out. Plus we do know how valuable getting rocks off your side is for some of the top tier threats (charizard, talonflame most notably) while being able to keep hazards on your side something defog doesn't do. It also works real well on rain teams due to thunder and hydro pump analytic specs combo.
 
Staraptor for B+, With Aegislash gone, theres only a small handful of mons that can safely switch in and avoid a 2HKO. Skarm is the only reliable switch in in A ranks to BB/CC/Edge. It will kill itself with recoil but thats irrelevant when Staraptor has KO'd two of your mons and opened the way for their sweeper to come in and win the game for them. It needs SR gone, but that's a small price to pay.

Suicune for A-, It's a great bulky water that's nearly impossible to stop once it's set up. Not much more to say but it's very hard to 2HKO, and a lot of the stuff that kills it (M-Medicham etc) dont want to risk switching into scald. Not much more to say about it really.
 
Starmie: B ---> B+: While slightly weaker and slower then Greninja, who seems to outclass it, Starmie has the all valuable Rapid Spin. Spinning is going to make a huge comeback with Aegi gone, and is more valuable then Defogging because it preserves your own hazards. Scald/Hydro Pump and Ice Beam is good two move coverage, with the third move being Thunderbolt or Psyshock based on what you want to get past more. Base 115 speed also allows it to handle a lot of threats against offensive teams. Analytic can f*** a bunch of things on the switch, or you could use Natural Cure if you need a status absorber and can't fit one anywhere else. Overall, it kills two birds with one stone by giving you hazards control that can contribute offensively.

Staraptor: B- ---> B: Aegi held down his otherwise perfect three move coverage (Normal, Flying, Fighting) and Staraptor couldn't even run a suboptimal move to get by him. Reckless boosts both his STABs further, and Intimidate is always helpful. Raptor also get U-Turn, allowing him to create momentum. He can run a Band for absurd power, or a Scarf, which pairs well with his decent speed tier. Normally I am not a huge fan of things that rely on Choice Items, but things with access to U-Turn and Volt Switch seem less restricted by those items.

^Yeah, I copied those from the last thread and dropped them right here. My opinion hasn’t changed in two days.

Garchomp: A+ ---> A+: Should stay where it is. 102 speed isn’t what it was in DPP, but ScarfChomp is as effective as it’s ever been. Along with Terrakion, Chomp is one of the most effective SR setters in the tier. Outrage/Dragon Claw, Earthquake, Fire Blast/Stone Edge/Swords Dance, Stealth Rock is quite the lead set with a Sash attached.

Mega Charizard X: S ---> S: Let’s be serious, this thing isn’t going anywhere. Bulky WoW, Bulky DD, regular DD, more defensive sets, hell even an SD set has become viable as a wallbreaker. It is basically Flare Blitz, Dragon Claw, and then two of SD, DD Roost, WoW and Earthquake. It only needs hazard support, but basically everything needs hazard support unless you have 4x resist to it like Lucario. It fits on virtually any team unless for some reason you need a special attacking mega, and even then 130 special attack makes it an absurdly good lure. Did I mention his fantastic typing?

Tyranitar (Mega): A+ ---> A+: I would place him above Mega Gyara for a few reasons. One, he provides Sand for Sand offense. While Mega Tyranitar can’t hold a Smooth Rock, Hippo can be a primary provider of Sand with Mega Tyranitar being the secondary provider. Two, he has useable STABs for both his types, something Gyarados lacks. Third, he has more options for coverage then Mega Gyara. Fire Punch and Ice Punch allow him to pick off certain difficult physical counters, Earthquake gives TTar the coveted EdgeQuake combo. Finally, he really only hates Fighting types, and those are easy to contain with Psychic and Fairy types, and Talonflame can take on and dent almost all of them.

Gyarados (Mega): A+ ---> A+/A: I could almost see it dropping, and I can be swayed either way. On one hand, changing your typing on something this bulky could allow you to grab a boost easier. Intimidate can also allow you to grab a boost, be it on a switch or a resisted hit. Gyara does have a slight case of 4MSS, wanting to run Waterfall, Earthquake, Ice Fang, Dragon Dance and Taunt. Mold Breaker is invaluable, however, because it allows you to smack around Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W and Sturdy mons when it otherwise can’t. Something about it just feels lacking, and I can’t really put my finger on it. Maybe it’s just a lack of Dark STAB.

Heracross (Mega): A ---> A+: Mega Mawile was a big thorn in his side, especially the Sub set. Every CC against the Sub set dropped his defense, Intimidate doesn’t help, and his trademark sub breaking moves are resisted. Aegi and Mawile are some of the only things he can’t muscle and BS his way through with the SD set. Mega Hera isn’t dead weight against offense either, his Mega form can take a surprising amount of non-Flying SE hits. He can often take out at least one opponent on offense, that’s enough to make him not deadweight on offensive teams. Mega Hera deserves to rise.

Gardevoir (Mega): A ---> A+: Breaks stall in half, and really doesn’t have many safe switch-ins. Hyper Voice, Psyshock and two of HP Ground, Focus Blast, Taunt and WoW makes for a very effective stall breaking set. Has less utility against offense, like her stall breaking brethren, but 100 speed and good special bulk allow her to hold her own against several threats on offense and at least contribute. When I play her against offense, I’m happy if she can spam two or three Hyper Voices (those things sting even when resisted) and burn something. Usually that’s enough, especially when paired with offense on offense weapons like Greninja and ScarfChomp. Not deadweight against offense, and a top tier stallbreaker. To A+ she goes. Sidenote: Mega Medi should stay A, because she has trouble with bulky Psychics and HJK can be high risk. Also, Medi seems to have more solid answers then the other two (Sableye, Slowbro, Cresslia). Just slightly below the other two.

Manectric (Mega): B ---> A-: Love this thing unconditionally. Superb speed, Intimidate and Fire attacks put it a level above Raikou. Checks or revenges a ton of shit: both Landorus forms, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Staraptor, Greninja, Thundurus, Scizor (both forms), Azumarill, etc. It's probably the top Volt Switcher in OU, and it is one of the few Electric type who has access to Flamethrower and Overheat, allowing it to beat things like Ferrothorn more easily. Performs absolutely fantastic against offense, and can contribute against stall. Can take out Gliscor, Skarm, and Ferrothorn, paving the way for physical attackers who have issues against those on defensive teams. Chansey isn’t even an issue because Volt Switch allows you to send in a Fighting type with proper prediction. It can even clean with a Lightning Rod boost, getting it to +1. Just don’t be an idiot and try to sweep early game with no boost, and you will never be unhappy with it.

Aerodactyl (Mega): B ---> B+: Underrated Mega with a few different sets. Stall breaking and defensive sets are ok, although I’ve never used them. I have used it in a pure offense role, and it excels at that role. It’s not an overpowering sweeper, but ridiculous speed, ability to run Adamant because of said speed and Tough Claws makes it quite the weapon. Two strong STABs in the effectively 150 BP Stone Edge and 120 BP Aerial Ace are a good starting point. From there, it can pick between Iron Head, Ice/Fire/Thunder Fang, Crunch, Earthquake, Taunt, Hone Claws and Roost depending on what coverage or roles your team is missing. I like Mega Aero a lot because it fills whatever coverage gaps your team has. Performs well against almost every offensive team, checking Birdspam and both forms of Charizard based on typing alone. The only thing it really fears on offense every time is Thundy, and that is only because of priority Thunder Wave (can Taunt on the switch?). Can break through almost every Mega on stall teams, but not much else against stall. Overall, a solid B+ because it performs so well against offense.

Alakazam (Mega): B ---> B+: Strong Mega, performs well in the new meta because two of the biggest priority users (Aegi and Mawile) are banned. Similar to Aero and Manectric, his blistering speed gives him an edge against offense. 150 speed allows him to run Modest, giving him a downright monstrous special attack stat. Psychic/Psyshock are very spamable in this meta, and he has a very deep movepool behind it. Taunt, Focus Blast, Dazzling Gleam, Shadow Ball, Substitute and Disable give him a lot of options. Magic Guard allows him to come in multiple times (and he can stay in his base form if Toxic’d) and Trace can grab a good ability sometimes. It is almost better to treat him as not having an ability, and take whatever ability you pick up as a bonus. Zam is great because you can tune him to take on offense or stall. Not many things can do both. Solid B+ choice, only because he hates all priority, and Trace can be inconsistent.

Feel free to pick this list apart piece by piece. Just my opinions. I feel like I have good arguments on most things expect Mega Gyarados. Ran out of steam on that one.
 
But Latias does have it...
She doesn't have room to run it however, there are things she would rather run and with it she has 4mss reflect type/draco meteor/psyshock/surf/healing wish/defog/roost/t-bolt/. She has too many things that she would rather run where starmie just needs spin/reflect type/ hydro/bolt/beam
 
Charizard (Mega-X) S > A+ I talked about this before but the 4x sr weak is so significant, and it is checked to easily when u consider that

Keldeo S> A+ Every team has this checked, and its just too predictable. It also has trouble consistently breaking its checks live venue, latis, azu, it potentially can but it has to predict very strongly and have a certain move set


Excadrill A+ > S It needs sand support, but ttar (and hippo kind of ) are good mons in themselves. Meanwhile, exca is a ridiculous revenge killer, fucks every type of offense, and even can spin which is awesome too.

Garchomp A+ > A The lead set is still solid but not as good as it was, and the scarf set is mostly outclassed by lando t. Pure Sd sets are hard to justify using when there are better and more efficient wall breakers, and bulky sets are just meh as always

Mega Gyarados Stays A+, it is such a monster vs every team without a ferro, and while many teams have ferro it is easy to lure and weaken. It is so bulky and can set up on so much of the meta

Heatran A+ > A Its defensive niches keep being whittled, and now most of the things it checks can bypass it, e.g. eq patios. Nearly all of A+ and s beats it as well.

Latias A+ > A This thing was dropped to A a while back for being inferior patios, healing wish is cool but i don’t rle see what changed

Bisharp A> A + Yeah there isn’t Aegislash, but bisharp was always a shit aegis check anyways. Its prio is strong af, the sd set is good again, and it pursuits shit for Keld n zard n lando or whatever

Ferro A> A+ LOL HOW IS THIS NOT A+. But for real its on so many teams fucks with so many mons and is just so good on balance

Hippo A> A- Just so passive and meh, never rle a threat to any play style

Lando T A>A+ The scarf set is so good at getting momentum and beating other offense, and the defensive set is a solid pivot and the best way to deal with a hera, via u uturn

Manaphy A- > B+/B Just weak n slow etc, doesn’t threat stall, too slow for offense, whats the point

Skarmory A- > B+ Probably personal bias here, but its so weak and bad at punishing switches, also doesn’t even wall the top physical threats of the meta like hera and medi

Mega Aerodactyl B > B+ The offensive set does wonders vs offense and checks bird spam (is bird spam still a threat? but w/e) the taunt roost st i have more experience with and rapes most stall while still being effective vs offense. Mawile being gone just makes it better

Raikus B > B+ Just cuz the cm volt switch set is so good vs every offensee that isn’t sand (I could see keeping it B cuz its so fucked by sand offense)


Then Just a couple of things I’ve been using that i like…

Froslass D> C+ Its good at getting spikes and keeping them by taunting/threatening defoggers, and can d-bond shit. Speed tying with latis sucks tho

Shaymin for C Its kinda bad but it is a sick lando check meld check azu check and just lives for a long time. Leech seed protect is the set I’m referring to although 3 ark healing wish can also be nice

Jirachi C> B FUCKIN LOOK AT THIS ONE cuz this one is more legit jirach is so good in this meta, it fucks with hard amazingly, the best cm clef counter there is, fucks every type of lati, can check hera, beats venue, etc. It is annoying how it gives completely free switches to some shit but it answers so many hard to answer mons
 
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