Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[escarlata]

Helldoom
You are essentially making double standards for Kingdra and Kabutops. Every defensive team has a mon to take on +2 Kabutops but not Kingdra? Kingdra can hit hard right off the bad but not Kabutops? Thundy can t-wave Kabutops but not Kingdra? Each of those problems that Kabutops face are also faced by Kingdra to an extend. Also Low Kick is very viable over Aqua Jet, for Chesnaught, Gastrodon and Ferrothorn. Sure missing Aqua Jet lets you get 2HKOed by Talonflame but at least it has the option of even running Aqua Jet to screw over Talonflame. Kingdra doesn't even have the option of beating Talonflame. Oh and not only Kingdra outspeeds Scarf Keldeo and Latios; Kabutops have the option of outspeeding them with Jolly too if you really need to.
Having said that, I'm not gonna make a verdict which is better because the last time I used rain was pre deo ban. But you cannot make a case a case that Kingdra is better than Kabutops just because Kingdra beats M, N and O, but Kabutops cannot beat P and Q.

 

[Jukain]

some noms

manaphy -> a. recently i've come to realize just how ridiculously good this thing is. the tg rd set is by far the best setand has gained some popularity recently. it basically 6-0's any stall team and really shits on almost every slower team. offensive teams have trouble with it because it's more than bulky enough to take a hit and just ridiculously strong. manaphy has the bulk and power to tear apart all kinds of teams and is a really underrated threat, a rank makes a lot of sense for it.

terrakion -> a. this moved up following the aegislash ban when it became really popular, but i feel it has drastically decreased in effectiveness since then. one of the biggest things is that there has been an enormous resurgence in lead chomp for offensive teams, which has displaced terrakion a bit. slowbro has become ridiculously common because of mega medicham, and that is its best counter. landorus-t is everywhere. phys def gliscor is seeing significant usage again due to mega heracross. people are starting to use hippowdon again. all these things are enormous negatives for terrakion because the whole selling point of it is breaking down these defensive cores, but adaptions these defensive cores have made are impacting it in a highly negative manner. it can't even guarantee rocks up in a lot of cases because bulky starmie and latis are on every other team. terrakion really just isn't as effective as it was, and a is a fair ranking for it.

breloom -> b+. to be honest i think this is a bit overdue. breloom was mainly used on multi-sash hyper offense teams, but those just aren't as effective in the current metagame. mega venusaur is seeing a bit of a grow in popularity at least from what i've seen. ferro is common, mew is common, latis are common, landt is common. the metagame has really just shifted out of breloom's favors due to shift in offensive builds as a whole.

kyurem-b -> b+. this thing is just taking a beating in the current metagame. its wallbreaking role is highly eclipsed by megacross/gard/cham, for one thing (all of which it loses to btw). it's hard to be a wallbreaker in this metagame when you're walled by clefable and ferrothorn. the large and growing popularity of jirachi to handle gardevoir and latis also does not bode well for it. the scarf set can be a nice surprise to catch some faster mons but it's not even that much of a surprise anymore and can be taken advantage of/beaten by many of the same mons as well as more mons due to the lock-in. kyurem-b just isn't anywhere near as effective as it was atm.

mandibuzz -> c+. mandibuzz is ass post-aegi, c+ is being nice to it. all it does is sit there and invite half the tier to come in and do whatever it wants. it basically just gives fairies, mega heracross, heatran, keldeo, gard, gliscor, venu, etc free switch-ins. it beats like...nothing anymore. chomp i guess? drill i guess? landt i guess? i can hardly think of much else besides a handful of pokemon. giving free switch-ins to all sorts of dangerous pokemon while not even providing much itself outside of defogging itself. and as a defensive defogger, i'd pick skarm any day with all the pinsir, diggersby, what have you running around. i have not seen a single seriously used mandibuzz since the aegislash ban, and there's a reason for that: it's bad, and needs to move down far.

inferzaken are you joking zard y is still rlly good and a big threat to lots of teams. people who use latis to beat it just get their lati pursuit trapped, the metagame is very underprepared for it in general. i haven't use zard y myself very recently but i've seen people use it and it is just a threat. some replay links to help illustrate what i mean.

links

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-166203837
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-166181467
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-166164284

zard y is just an incredible nuke. it boasts enormous consistency over other wallbreakers with nice bulk and reliable recovery which make it much easier to use as a consistent threat throughout the match. it also requires very little prediction, unlike say mega heracross which can be played around because of that.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I've been laddering with rain and imo it's just disgusting how underrated rain is.

I'd like to nominate Kingdra for A-, it's easily the best swift swimmer and should be ranked higher then Kabutops. The Specs set just destroys any hyper offensive team with Hydro Pump/Scald. It's excellent bulk lets it switch in easily on a lot of mons and get a kill (Mega Manectric, Heatran, Greninja, Rotom-W, Keldeo, Landorus-T etc.). There's just no way Kabutops is better then Kingdra. You have to sack something to bring it into play, it has more trouble getting past it's counters (Slowbro, Mega venusaur, Ferrothorn) and gets outsped by Scarf Latios and Keldeo). Kingdra can easily break through Ferrothorn and Azumarill with Scald spam.

Politoed to A-. It's the most important member of a rain team and should never be ranked lower then any rain sweeper.

Omastar should move to B+. It's FAR more threating then Kabutops, as Specs Hydro Pump can 2hko everything in rain (Chansey gets 2hko'ed after knock off). It's also an excellent flying spam check and has better bulk then Kabutops.

Kabutops should drop to B. This thing is so overrated (the best swift swimmer lmao). Physical water attacks < special water attacks. It's biggest problem is that it can't get past Ferrothorn, Slowbro and Venusaur and you have to sack something to bring it into play.

You're underselling Kabutops a bit. It's quite good for all the reasons MilkyWay01 stated. You're also making it sound like Slowbro, Venusaur and Ferrothorn can perpetually wall Kabutops which isn't the case. Kabu has Low Kick for Ferrothorn, and it only needs a little bit of prior damage to OHKO the other two with +2 Stone Edge.

Now IMO Kingdra and Kabutops are about on par with each other in viability (especially since Kabu honestly can't run Aqua Jet and SD on the same set, it needs Low Kick) so I could see Kingdra rising to B+ or just Kabu going to B, but Kingdra being a full two ranks above? I don't think so.

 

[Alfalfa]

some noms

manaphy -> a. recently i've come to realize just how ridiculously good this thing is. the tg rd set is by far the best setand has gained some popularity recently. it basically 6-0's any stall team and really shits on almost every slower team. offensive teams have trouble with it because it's more than bulky enough to take a hit and just ridiculously strong. manaphy has the bulk and power to tear apart all kinds of teams and is a really underrated threat, a rank makes a lot of sense for it.

terrakion -> a. this moved up following the aegislash ban when it became really popular, but i feel it has drastically decreased in effectiveness since then. one of the biggest things is that there has been an enormous resurgence in lead chomp for offensive teams, which has displaced terrakion a bit. slowbro has become ridiculously common because of mega medicham, and that is its best counter. landorus-t is everywhere. phys def gliscor is seeing significant usage again due to mega heracross. people are starting to use hippowdon again. all these things are enormous negatives for terrakion because the whole selling point of it is breaking down these defensive cores, but adaptions these defensive cores have made are impacting it in a highly negative manner. it can't even guarantee rocks up in a lot of cases because bulky starmie and latis are on every other team. terrakion really just isn't as effective as it was, and a is a fair ranking for it.

breloom -> b+. to be honest i think this is a bit overdue. breloom was mainly used on multi-sash hyper offense teams, but those just aren't as effective in the current metagame. mega venusaur is seeing a bit of a grow in popularity at least from what i've seen. ferro is common, mew is common, latis are common, landt is common. the metagame has really just shifted out of breloom's favors due to shift in offensive builds as a whole.

kyurem-b -> b+. this thing is just taking a beating in the current metagame. its wallbreaking role is highly eclipsed by megacross/gard/cham, for one thing (all of which it loses to btw). it's hard to be a wallbreaker in this metagame when you're walled by clefable and ferrothorn. the large and growing popularity of jirachi to handle gardevoir and latis also does not bode well for it. the scarf set can be a nice surprise to catch some faster mons but it's not even that much of a surprise anymore and can be taken advantage of/beaten by many of the same mons as well as more mons due to the lock-in. kyurem-b just isn't anywhere near as effective as it was atm.

mandibuzz -> c+. mandibuzz is ass post-aegi, c+ is being nice to it. all it does is sit there and invite half the tier to come in and do whatever it wants. it basically just gives fairies, mega heracross, heatran, keldeo, gard, gliscor, venu, etc free switch-ins. it beats like...nothing anymore. chomp i guess? drill i guess? landt i guess? i can hardly think of much else besides a handful of pokemon. giving free switch-ins to all sorts of dangerous pokemon while not even providing much itself outside of defogging itself. and as a defensive defogger, i'd pick skarm any day with all the pinsir, diggersby, what have you running around. i have not seen a single seriously used mandibuzz since the aegislash ban, and there's a reason for that: it's bad, and needs to move down far.

inferzaken are you joking zard y is still rlly good and a big threat to lots of teams. people who use latis to beat it just get their lati pursuit trapped, the metagame is very underprepared for it in general. i haven't use zard y myself very recently but i've seen people use it and it is just a threat. some replay links to help illustrate what i mean.

links

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-166203837
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-166181467
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-166164284

zard y is just an incredible nuke. it boasts enormous consistency over other wallbreakers with nice bulk and reliable recovery which make it much easier to use as a consistent threat throughout the match. it also requires very little prediction, unlike say mega heracross which can be played around because of that.

I agree with Mandibuzz to C+ and Breloom to B+, but I want some more discussion on Kyurem-B. I am not completely sold on it going to B+, because it does not take up a Mega Slot, and while it is walled by Ferro and Clefable, not every wallbreaker can break everything. I should emphasize the not taking up a Mega Slot part, because that is Kyurem-B's biggest selling point.

 

[NotSoClutch]

I agree with Mandibuzz to C+ and Breloom to B+, but I want some more discussion on Kyurem-B. I am not completely sold on it going to B+, because it does not take up a Mega Slot, and while it is walled by Ferro and Clefable, not every wallbreaker can break everything. I should emphasize the not taking up a Mega Slot part, because that is Kyurem-B's biggest selling point.

Actually, HP fire and band iron head take care of both of those two Kyube checks. Not the best use of a moveslot in either situation, but if you need them broken, they can be broken. B+ is a bit too low.

I actually want to nominate Porygon 2 for B-. It has solid matchups with a lot of the top tier threats. It walls things like garchomp, dragonite, pinsir, lando-t, talonflame, ttar, gliscor, mamoswine, gyarados and can check things like Azumarill, Charizard X, Aerodactyl, Diggersby, Kyube, etc. It can even take a hit from a scarfed keldeo or terrakion in a pinch and thunder wave.
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 144-170 (38.5 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 204-240 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It just takes hits really well and has great coverage with bolt beam. Trace also helps wall things like specs tran in spectacular fashion.

 

[Numera]

some noms

manaphy -> a. recently i've come to realize just how ridiculously good this thing is. the tg rd set is by far the best setand has gained some popularity recently. it basically 6-0's any stall team and really shits on almost every slower team. offensive teams have trouble with it because it's more than bulky enough to take a hit and just ridiculously strong. manaphy has the bulk and power to tear apart all kinds of teams and is a really underrated threat, a rank makes a lot of sense for it.

terrakion -> a. this moved up following the aegislash ban when it became really popular, but i feel it has drastically decreased in effectiveness since then. one of the biggest things is that there has been an enormous resurgence in lead chomp for offensive teams, which has displaced terrakion a bit. slowbro has become ridiculously common because of mega medicham, and that is its best counter. landorus-t is everywhere. phys def gliscor is seeing significant usage again due to mega heracross. people are starting to use hippowdon again. all these things are enormous negatives for terrakion because the whole selling point of it is breaking down these defensive cores, but adaptions these defensive cores have made are impacting it in a highly negative manner. it can't even guarantee rocks up in a lot of cases because bulky starmie and latis are on every other team. terrakion really just isn't as effective as it was, and a is a fair ranking for it.

breloom -> b+. to be honest i think this is a bit overdue. breloom was mainly used on multi-sash hyper offense teams, but those just aren't as effective in the current metagame. mega venusaur is seeing a bit of a grow in popularity at least from what i've seen. ferro is common, mew is common, latis are common, landt is common. the metagame has really just shifted out of breloom's favors due to shift in offensive builds as a whole.

kyurem-b -> b+. this thing is just taking a beating in the current metagame. its wallbreaking role is highly eclipsed by megacross/gard/cham, for one thing (all of which it loses to btw). it's hard to be a wallbreaker in this metagame when you're walled by clefable and ferrothorn. the large and growing popularity of jirachi to handle gardevoir and latis also does not bode well for it. the scarf set can be a nice surprise to catch some faster mons but it's not even that much of a surprise anymore and can be taken advantage of/beaten by many of the same mons as well as more mons due to the lock-in. kyurem-b just isn't anywhere near as effective as it was atm.

mandibuzz -> c+. mandibuzz is ass post-aegi, c+ is being nice to it. all it does is sit there and invite half the tier to come in and do whatever it wants. it basically just gives fairies, mega heracross, heatran, keldeo, gard, gliscor, venu, etc free switch-ins. it beats like...nothing anymore. chomp i guess? drill i guess? landt i guess? i can hardly think of much else besides a handful of pokemon. giving free switch-ins to all sorts of dangerous pokemon while not even providing much itself outside of defogging itself. and as a defensive defogger, i'd pick skarm any day with all the pinsir, diggersby, what have you running around. i have not seen a single seriously used mandibuzz since the aegislash ban, and there's a reason for that: it's bad, and needs to move down far.

inferzaken are you joking zard y is still rlly good and a big threat to lots of teams. people who use latis to beat it just get their lati pursuit trapped, the metagame is very underprepared for it in general. i haven't use zard y myself very recently but i've seen people use it and it is just a threat. some replay links to help illustrate what i mean.

links

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-166203837
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-166181467
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-166164284

zard y is just an incredible nuke. it boasts enormous consistency over other wallbreakers with nice bulk and reliable recovery which make it much easier to use as a consistent threat throughout the match. it also requires very little prediction, unlike say mega heracross which can be played around because of that.

I agree with everything here, mostly Terrakion and Mandibuzz, but I'll discuss Terrakion for now.

Terrakion is indeed suffering from the fact that unless it runs it's HP Ice it is unable to easily break defensive cores like it used to, and even with HP Ice Slowbro is the biggest pain in the world. Sure, Terrakion has that Scarf set that changes one of it's roles to one it can preform like champ, but the point is it's had some of it's versatility stripped away due to an increase of viability in it's counters ----> decrease of viability of it's set that tries to wallbreak and lead chomp + Bulky Starmie and Latis--------> decrease of it's SR Lead set. Another thing about Terrakion is that for me it no longer feels level with most of A+. I just don't see it as good as Clefable, Excadrill, Char Y, Mega Heracross, the Latis, Mega Venu, ext. However, the Pokemon in A seem to be around Terrakion's level. I see it on par in terms of viability with Bisharp, Dragonite, Mamoswine, Gengar, Gliscor, Mega Medicham, Mega Scizor, ext (not Mew, I feel that thing needs to move up). All of this together lands Terrakion in A.

 

[Baharoth]

I think u gotta take SD and its versatility resulting from it into a better account when weighing lando-t's pros and cons.

Indeed i didnt consider SD/Double Dance sets, and yes they can certainly break through defensive teams. However, with just SD Lando might be better vs defense but loses lots of his potential against offense. He is to slow to realy threaten offense teams with SD alone and has to give up most of its bulk to use it effectively. Double Dance is a thing i guess but its realy difficult to get 2 set up opportunitys in a row. Both sets are good mostly due to their suprise factor but imo they will only work once, if the opponent knows whats going on they wont do much.

Regarding Lando-I and Cresselia, you know thats somewhat like the Murkrow vs BP arguments. Imo Cresselia is pretty bad to begin with due to how passiv it is and even worse in a meta full of Sand and Ttar.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Indeed i didnt consider SD/Double Dance sets, and yes they can certainly break through defensive teams. However with just SD Lando might be better vs defense but loses lots of his potential against offense. He is to slow to realy threaten offense teams with SD alone and has to give up most of its bulk use it effectively. Double Dance is a thing i guess but its realy difficult to get 2 set up opportunitys in a row. Both sets a good mostly due to their suprise factor but imo they will only work once, if the opponent knows whats going on they wont do much.

Regarding Lando-I and Cresselia, you know thats somewhat like the Murkrow vs BP arguments. Imo Cresselia is pretty bad to begin with due to how passiv it is and even worse in a meta full of Sand and Ttar.

Mega Charizard Y exists, though. The sunlight it provides makes Moonlight a tremendous healing move for the time it lasts. Besides, Ice Beam is all Cresselia needs to get Gliscor and the Landorus off the field. It's a 2HKO in most cases, but with some slight SAtk investment, it can be turned into an OHKO in some cases.

Cressie's Ice Beam

12 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-I: 280-332 (87.7 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (standard wallbreaker)
12 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-I: 248-296 (77.7 - 92.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Calm Mind set)

12 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 248-296 (77.7 - 92.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Choice Scarfer)
12 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 248-296 (74.9 - 89.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Double Dance)

12 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 264-312 (75 - 88.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This minimal number of SAtk investment may sacrifice some bulk, but it at least gives Cresselia the chance to OHKO these Pokémon. With how fucking much damage Ice Beam can do to these Pokémon, I wouldn't exactly call Cresselia a sitting duck. CM sets are obviously outclassed by other Pokémon, but I guess it could give the swan insane bulk on both sides. Cresselia has definitely become better, though, so I wouldn't mind seeing it move up to B. It obviously still suffers from being kind of passive, but it brings about a huge amount of support and has borderline mad bulk. That's good enough for B, I'd say. Not to mention, it pairs pretty well with some of the most prominent OU threats, such as the Mega Charizard, Tyranitar, Mega Tyranitar, etc.

 

[Baharoth]

Sure Char Y exists, but it doesnt make much sense to put Cress on the same team as him, and even if you do, most Char Y teams run Sand support as well to cancel the sun after he switched out so your not getting much synergy from it. Not to mention that sun lasts just 5 turns where 2-3 will usually be used by Zard himself. And hoping for the rare case that your opponent runs it is hardly a justification to run Cress over one of the much MUCH better choices for a defensive psychic type.

And the fact that you need SpA investment to have a chance at ohkoing after rocks with a 4x effective move against targets without SpD investment should tell you everything you need to know about how patheticly weak Cress attacks are. Neutral hits against bulky targets will hardly compensate Leftie recovery. Yeah its gonna work against Lando, Gliscor, Dnite and Chomp but thats pretty much it. And not one of them is going to switch into Cress to take SR damage killing your chance on a ohko without more SpA investment.

 

[Srn]

Hold on why do can't stall teams bs passive again? Whats so wrong with cress being weak again? Isn't it just supposed to be bulky for a stall team anyways?
Besides, there may seem like better psychic types but even they are difficult to justify over cress for countering cham. For example, slowbro is defeated by thunderpunch and sdef mew is 2hko'd by adamant hjk, and can easily be taken advantage of by an easy substitute. Cress's psyshock's can break medi's subs and avoids a 2hko from any of its attacks, actually leaving cress as a far more reliable answer to cham than any other psychic in the tier.

 

[AM]

Actually, HP fire and band iron head take care of both of those two Kyube checks. Not the best use of a moveslot in either situation, but if you need them broken, they can be broken. B+ is a bit too low.

I actually want to nominate Porygon 2 for B-. It has solid matchups with a lot of the top tier threats. It walls things like garchomp, dragonite, pinsir, lando-t, talonflame, ttar, gliscor, mamoswine, gyarados and can check things like Azumarill, Charizard X, Aerodactyl, Diggersby, Kyube, etc. It can even take a hit from a scarfed keldeo or terrakion in a pinch and thunder wave.
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 144-170 (38.5 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 204-240 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It just takes hits really well and has great coverage with bolt beam. Trace also helps wall things like specs tran in spectacular fashion.

So yeah as far as Kyurem-B goes HP Fire hitting Ferro makes sense, the Clef statement didn't though. Fusion Bolt is doing about the same as Iron Head and as far as 1v1 scenarios go Clefable usually comes out on top most times. You need Life Orb on Kyurem to actually break it, which means now you're getting outpaced and wrecked by a bunch of relevant stuff. No opinion on Porygon2 cause I never see or ever use it. Lots of things can take hits from scarfed Keldeo cause it's design to revenge kill not wallbreak and taking half from Terrakion even after all that investment is not what anyone is looking for =/.

Cresselia for B is just too high at this point. It's good at what it does at countering some things like Lando-I but not to the level where I would consider this a viable option in the rank of B. Also, if you're running special attack investment to compensate Cresselias lack of power, you're just playing a very dangerous game of actually being able to beat Charizard Y. Too tired to make a decent argument for it but yeah Cress shouldn't move up.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Sure Char Y exists, but it doesnt make much sense to put Cress on the same team as him, and even if you do, most Char Y teams run Sand support as well to cancel the sun after he switched out so your not getting much synergy from it. Not to mention that sun lasts just 5 turns where 2-3 will usually be used by Zard himself. And hoping for the rare case that your opponent runs it is hardly a justification to run Cress over one of the much MUCH better choices for a defensive psychic type.

And the fact that you need SpA investment to have a chance at ohkoing after rocks with a 4x effective move against targets without SpD investment should tell you everything you need to know about how patheticly weak Cress attacks are. Neutral hits against bulky targets will hardly compensate Leftie recovery. Yeah its gonna work against Lando, Gliscor, Dnite and Chomp but thats pretty much it. And not one of them is going to switch into Cress to take SR damage killing your chance on a ohko without more SpA investment.

With the appropriate Special Defense investment, Cresselia can check Keldeo by cleanly avoiding the 2HKO from Hydro Pump, while still being able to check a large slew of other Pokémon. I'm just saying the presence of Mega Charizard Y can aid Cresselia, nothing more. I guess B- is a good rank for it, but you're talking about it like it's a C-Rank Pokémon.

 

[Baharoth]

Hold on why do can't stall teams bs passive again? Whats so wrong with cress being weak again? Isn't it just supposed to be bulky for a stall team anyways?
Besides, there may seem like better psychic types but even they are difficult to justify over cress for countering cham. For example, slowbro is defeated by thunderpunch and sdef mew is 2hko'd by adamant hjk, and can easily be taken advantage of by an easy substitute. Cress's psyshock's can break medi's subs and avoids a 2hko from any of its attacks, actually leaving cress as a far more reliable answer to cham than any other psychic in the tier.

The trend lately moves away from passiv stall teams because they dont work all that well in the current meta.

And if you want a 100% check to Mega Medi, use Mew, give it some def investment and Nightshade. Thats like a million times better than Cress.

With the appropriate Special Defense investment, Cresselia can check Keldeo by cleanly avoiding the 2HKO from Hydro Pump, while still being able to check a large slew of other Pokémon. I'm just saying the presence of Mega Charizard Y can aid Cresselia, nothing more. I guess B- is a good rank for it, but you're talking about it like it's a C-Rank Pokémon.

Thats exactly what it is in my eyes, C should be the absolute maximum for it. The fact that Cress resides in the same rank with mons like Entei, Lucario or Zapdos is laughable imo. They are all far more usefull and not so hopelessly outclassed by other things. Dealing with Cham and Lando-I is certainly a good thing to have but thats not nearly enough to compensate all the flaws Cress has. I cant even comprehend how the same person that argued for Zapdos to go down to C+ because its weak to Sand Rush teams can suggest Cress (who is like a hundred times worse against them, Zapdos can atleast kill Exca with Heatwave if its weakend and doesnt lose its recovery in the sand) to move up to B.

Alfalfa to wall Keldeo it needs full special defense and gets raped by CB Talonflame, not to mention that its utterly destroyed by any SD/Stallbreaker variant due to how passive it is. And Char Y is always paired with TTar/Bisharp, good luck using Cress against such teams.

 

[Alfalfa]

The trend lately moves away from passiv stall teams because they dont work all that well in the current meta.

And if you want a 100% check to Mega Medi, use Mew, give it some def investment and Nightshade. Thats like a million times better than Cress.

I concur. Not even having to run any physical defense just to beat Mega Medicham is a huge pro for Cresselia. Plus, Cress walls a whole bunch of other Pokemon, such as Talon, Zard Y, Keldeo, etc.

 

[AM]

Thats exactly what it is in my eyes, C should be the absolute maximum for it. The fact that Cress resides in the same rank with mons like Entei, Lucario or Zapdos is laughable imo. They are all far more usefull and not so hopelessly outclassed by other things.

Alfalfa to wall Keldeo it needs full special defense and gets raped by CB Talonflame, not to mention that its utterly destroyed by any SD/Stallbreaker variant due to how passive it is. And Char Y is always paired with TTar/Bisharp, good luck using Cress against such teams.

Yeah you're underrating its ability to wall a lot of key threats in the meta and it actually has some diversity in what it does which includes access to tools like Thunderwave, Trick Room, Lunar Dance, etc. Also how you're viewing the comparison between other B- ranked mons is extremely subjective right now. Entei and Lucario are tools to offense, Zapdos to balance primarily, and Cress is an asset towards stall generally. Cress without full special defense investment is just dumb, if I'm already beating the stuff I wall with the bulk I have why would I need investment for SpAtk when I win anyways. That's not towards you Baharoth that's towards the counter arguments I was seeing. The way that Cresselia actually checks most of this stuff mentioned is through the use of Thunder Wave anyways, it's not actually keeping up with things like Specs Keldeo. Also putting Cresselia in C+ rank is laughable when you have blatantly crappy stuff like Espeon and Infernape who, sure have some things that sets it apart from its peers, but doesn't change the fact they're overall crappy. Cresselia's viability is equal to that of the B- ranked mons in the terms of how it fares in actual practice compared to the other B- ranked mons which I think is perfectly fine for Cress.

 

[Clone]

Idk how well this'll be received but nominating Diggersby for A rank.

So anyone who's anyone has ran into that one ladder team that everyone is using - double bunny I think it's called. Anyways I rebuilt it and gave it a go myself, and 9/10 times Diggersby was the MVP. Going on that I built my own HO team similar to it with changes and shit, and once again Diggersby often stole the show (tho SubFlail Pinsir literally has 6-0ed teams from turn 1 but that's a different post for a different nom).

Anyways, Diggersby is hella powerful. Adamant LO Return p much 2HKOes every non resist out there, and of those, only really Skarm and Bronzong avoid his secondary STAB EQ. Gengar is a bitch, but w/e. If he gets a chance to set up it's often game over. PhysDef Rotom, Venu, Defensive. Lando T, and a shitload of other slower mons are all OHKOed after an SD (I think bro lives with like 10% or sumthin like that idr), and anything faster loses to a boosted Quick Attack such as the Latis and Scarfers.

SD Spam is p good in the meta rn as it overpowers the standard Balance / Bulky Offense, and I've found Diggersby to be a staple for these kinds of teams. Huge Power backed by a LO is nothing to scoff at, and his job as a wallbreaker is done perfectly by this guy.

Now Ik that I should compare him to other A mons, so I'd like to take a look at a few of the wallbreakers that reside there. Bisharp and Bandnite come to mind. Bandnite is the most common set atm (and it's really fucking good), and it's job is to punch holes in teams early game and clean up late game with ESpeed. Diggersby can do just that. Early game he's able to punch holes in defensive cores, and outright dismantle them after a boost. Late game he's able to clean up teams with a boosted quick attack. The only thing he's missing is bulk, but even then it can take a neutral hit and hit back hard. The other mon I brought up was. Bisharp, which Pursuit traps and more recently has taken up the SD set again to punch holes in opposing teams with Knock Off and sweep with Sucker Punch late game, which again is what Diggersby does.

I may edit in replays later cuz I'm on my phone atm (all are from opps 1600+) to show his power, but for now I'll leave off with Diggersby for A.

 

[Firebird101]

Doesn't that just mean that Espeon should just drop to C? I know it has a solid niche but baton pass teams are pretty much history and I can't even remember the last time I faced one. Unless I'm missing something and Espeon is being used outside of baton pass teams I think it should drop. At least Sylveon can run choice specs and yet it shares the same rank as it's psychic sibling.

 

[AM]

Doesn't that just mean that Espeon should just drop to C? I know it has a solid niche but baton pass teams are pretty much history and I can't even remember the last time I faced one. Unless I'm missing something and Espeon is being used outside of baton pass teams I think it should drop. At least Sylveon can run choice specs and yet it shares the same rank as it's psychic sibling.

Basically this quote by Alfalfa sums it up

Alexwolf is sold that GeoPass + Espeon is the second coming of Christ, even though Espeon requires significantly more support than just GeoPass Smeargle just to work. In my opinion, I would drop Espeon to C Rank, but if you think you can convince Alexwolf, go ahead.

But yeah should drop anyways. Doesn't even stallbreak, and stallbreak is irrelevant when it's a more primarily offensive metagame right now.

 

[Baharoth]

Yeah you're underrating its ability to wall a lot of key threats in the meta and it actually has some diversity in what it does which includes access to tools like Thunderwave, Trick Room, Lunar Dance, etc. Also how you're viewing the comparison between other B- ranked mons is extremely subjective right now. Entei and Lucario are tools to offense, Zapdos to balance primarily, and Cress is an asset towards stall generally. Cress without full special defense investment is just dumb, if I'm already beating the stuff I wall with the bulk I have why would I need investment for SpAtk when I win anyways. That's not towards you Baharoth that's towards the counter arguments I was seeing. The way that Cresselia actually checks most of this stuff mentioned is through the use of Thunder Wave anyways, it's not actually keeping up with things like Specs Keldeo. Also putting Cresselia in C+ rank is laughable when you have blatantly crappy stuff like Espeon and Infernape who, sure have some things that sets it apart from its peers, but doesn't change the fact they're overall crappy. Cresselia's viability is equal to that of the B- ranked mons in the terms of how it fares in actual practice compared to the other B- ranked mons which I think is perfectly fine for Cress.

I would rather consider Infernape or even Espeon for a teamslot than Cress. Espeon makes for a decent stallbreaker and Infernape, while overall outclassed by Keldeo, has some things to set it apart from it like U-turn and priority for example. Not to mention its ability to run lead sets and other sets where it doesnt compete with it. On the other hand i cant think of a single situation/team where i would pick Cresselia over Mew or Slowbro. Trickroom maybe but thats pretty much it.

Anyway, i am afraid we wont get to an agreement on this one so lets just end it with agree to disagree, shall we?

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

throwing in my support for manaphy to a. this thing is so underprepared for, its tg+rd set in particular. tg+rd is so hilariously broken against stall when its already spread pretty thin by the meta. the spread i use(90 252+ 160) is so bulky and strong. it can even run wacan berry to lure in thundurus. also cm+rd is still p good, but tg+rd is the reason i want it to move up. you can't wear it down with status(one of the primary ways stall does damage)and it can get by most bulky grass types(considering these are stalls main stops to water types) make it one of the best stall breakers. also, the opportunity to wear it down with straight up plain damage often never presents itself when its against a stall team since it can boost up ridiculous amounts with tail glow in short amounts of time. also does well against sand because it disrupts the weather.

->A

 

[pwnémon]

I really think jirachi should rise to A-. Its sub status andsub 3 attacks are pretty brutal. It can also be an offensive stealth rocker, healing wish, wish or scarfer or run spdef to counter mega gardevoir and latis.

 

[Flarowak]

I would like to bring back up the nomination for Lucario to B. I really like this mon, it's great for revenge killing quicker mons like talonflame, and as a late game sweeper it can really do work, especially if it gets a chance to set up. Fighting/ steel dual STABS with E-speed to take care of just about every priority user and you can hit just about everyone. Landorus-T is the only threat I run into consistently that I need to take out before Luke can finish up, unless he gets worn down enough to E-Speed him. Access to sd doesn't hurt his chances of sweeping either.

 

[SSJ]

I think Alakazam-M should be nominated to A rank. I've used it before and it just wrecks through unprepared teams. 175 SpA and 150 Spe, which out speeds almost all of the unboosted meta and access to an array of attacks that can counter its main threats, make for an all powerful pokemon like mega alakazam. It deserves to move up to A rank. It functions almost as a pivot as well by forcing switches with the help of trace. It can trace abilities like lightning rod and gain the SpA boost and just wreck the opponents team. If it is statused(mainly if paralyzed) it can just switch into a chansey or blissey and just trace natural cure and switch out. This ability helps make this Pokemon a very versatile one to use and depends upon the strategy of the user. This is why I think it should be nominated to A rank.

 

[RotomPoison]

I think Alakazam-M should be nominated to A rank. I've used it before and it just wrecks through unprepared teams. 175 SpA and 150 Spe, which out speeds almost all of the unboosted meta and access to an array of attacks that can counter its main threats, make for an all powerful pokemon like mega alakazam. It deserves to move up to A rank. It functions almost as a pivot as well by forcing switches with the help of trace. It can trace abilities like lightning rod and gain the SpA boost and just wreck the opponents team. If it is statused(mainly if paralyzed) it can just switch into a chansey or blissey and just trace natural cure and switch out. This ability helps make this Pokemon a very versatile one to use and depends upon the strategy of the user. This is why I think it should be nominated to A rank.

No. It has excellent power and Speed, but it has a ton of flaws too, way too many to be compared to Mega Gardevoir or Medicham. "Access to attacks that can counter its main threats." What does that even mean? It sounds like you're saying this Pokemon has every coverage move imaginable and can OHKO everything and has no check or counters. It's not a pivot either, it's simply a special attacker. Trace is a great ability but how often will it truly come into play. On a mon like P2, who can use Natural Cure, or really any immunity ability (if that makes sense) well due to its great bulk that will let it last, Trace is great. The only times Trace will actually come into play are with Protean and if running Psychic > Psyshock, Sheer Force. Even then you have to be mega evolved beforehand and be able to stay in for a while to abuse it which Mega Alakazam can't do often. It's really good and all but it's nowhere near as good as Gardevoir, who gains a much stronger STAB Hyper Voice (not to mention Trace before Mega Evolving, which while again rarely comes into play, if Gardevoir gains a Lightningrod boost as it comes in at any point in the battle it can then abuse it with a Pixilate Hyper Voice and a boost.) I just don't see these 2 ever being in the same rank. Also, it isn't sweeping when the opponent has Stealth Rock (99% of the time) and any priority user with decent power (99% of the time)

 

[SSJ]

No. It has excellent power and Speed, but it has a ton of flaws too, way too many to be compared to Mega Gardevoir or Medicham. "Access to attacks that can counter its main threats." What does that even mean? It sounds like you're saying this Pokemon has every coverage move imaginable and can OHKO everything and has no check or counters. It's not a pivot either, it's simply a special attacker. Trace is a great ability but how often will it truly come into play. On a mon like P2, who can use Natural Cure, or really any immunity ability (if that makes sense) well due to its great bulk that will let it last, Trace is great. The only times Trace will actually come into play are with Protean and if running Psychic > Psyshock, Sheer Force. Even then you have to be mega evolved beforehand and be able to stay in for a while to abuse it which Mega Alakazam can't do often. It's really good and all but it's nowhere near as good as Gardevoir, who gains a much stronger STAB Hyper Voice (not to mention Trace before Mega Evolving, which while again rarely comes into play, if Gardevoir gains a Lightningrod boost as it comes in at any point in the battle it can then abuse it with a Pixilate Hyper Voice and a boost.) I just don't see these 2 ever being in the same rank. Also, it isn't sweeping when the opponent has Stealth Rock (99% of the time) and any priority user with decent power (99% of the time)

Last time I checked, all the pokemon in the metagame did not count as alakazam's main threats. What I meant was that it has HP fire for scizor and focus blast or dazzling gleam for tyranitar which, to some people, might seem like a few of alakazam's main threats. It can use trace to its advantage if you can use it strategically and has access to magic guard before it mega evolves which means for one turn of switch in, it can avoid all entry hazards and damage from status if any. Also, gardevoir does have the special bulk+pixilate hyper voice but what it lacks is speed. Alakazam makes up for that with a great speed stat. Gardevoir pretty much dies to any non-resisted physical attack. I'm not saying alakazam doesn't, but he can at least attack the opponents pokemon before going down.