Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[Karxrida]

I honestly believe bisharp should be bumped up to S rank. Bishop is a huge factoring team building and sweeps with ease in the current hazard stack meta. Most counters are worn down easily with hazards and at +2 bisharp has afield day. Lack of counters, plenty of opportunities to sweep and severe team restrictions warrant s rank imo.

I'm a major Bisharp fan and all but I don't think it should be S. It wishes it was faster so it could spam Knock Off more and there are a ton of ways to deal with it like Rosenfeldius brought up. It's still a great Mon and I'll probably use it on all my teams but it isn't Greninja great.

 

[MilkyWay]

About Shuckle, Sticky Web is a very useful entry hazard. Dropping one Speed stage to any non-Flyer or Levitator is huge for many offensive teams.

For example, these pokemon hate Sticky Web (only up to B+ rank):
-Keldeo, Mega CHarizard x (if mega-evolved), Bisharp, Excadrill (if not Balloon), Garchomp, M Gardevoir, some Heatran, M Pinsir (if not mega-evolved),M Gyarados (if mega-evolved), Mamoswine, M Medicham, M Tyranitar, Diggersby, some Magnezone, Manaphy, M manectric, some Tyranitar, M Alakazam, some Celebi, some Jirachi, Kabutops, Kyurem-B, Raikou, the majority of Starmie and Victini.

Tornadus-I should be D rank ecause it's badly outclassed by the Tornadus-T counterpart. Frosllas is fine in C and I don't know about Gourgeist-Small niche.

I wouldnt say Bisharp hates sticky web because even though it's speed drops it gets +2 attack thanks to defiant. Otherwise I agree with you, sticky web is good against offensive teams. I just wanted to point out the Bisharp thing before someone else did and tried to call your point moot because of it.

Edit: Tornadus-I has higher offensive stats which allow it to wallbreak better like alfalfa said and it has priority tailwind if it wants to sac itself for a late game sweep or something

 

[Alfalfa]

The only reason of why Magneton is being ranked in C+ is because it's Scarf set outspeeding Greninja and a group of some DD users like Adamant Dragonite, Jolly Mega Tyranitar and Adamant (Mega) Gyarados, all of them eing very notable threats. Jolly Talonflame is not exactly "standard" because neutral nature 81 Base Attack is weak and both of them risk Flare Blitz.

I think that Magneton has a D-rank niche, but because the importance of said pokemon, it should go down to C, ut not lower.

Gastrodon is less passive than Quagsire, which is a good thing. I don't give a rank because I don't know Gastrodon so much.

About Shuckle, Sticky Web is a very useful entry hazard. Dropping one Speed stage to any non-Flyer or Levitator is huge for many offensive teams.

For example, these pokemon hate Sticky Web (only up to B+ rank):
-Keldeo, Mega CHarizard x (if mega-evolved), Bisharp, Excadrill (if not Balloon), Garchomp, M Gardevoir, some Heatran, M Pinsir (if not mega-evolved),M Gyarados (if mega-evolved), Mamoswine, M Medicham, M Tyranitar, Diggersby, some Magnezone, Manaphy, M manectric, some Tyranitar, M Alakazam, some Celebi, some Jirachi, Kabutops, Kyurem-B, Raikou, the majority of Starmie and Victini.

Other thing is that the few setter are relatively shitty pokemon and this is why only Shuckle is viable (and only in C+).

I agree with alexwolf with Alakazam.

About M Blastoise, I think it should stay because it's the most defensive (although no recovery is bad) good Rapid Spinner. Note that Blastoise usually only fits in Balance and Bulky Offense teams.

If you use Blastoise, use this set
Blastoise @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 236 HP / 252 SpA / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Hydro Pump / Scald
- Dark Pulse
- Aura Sphere / ice Beam (depending of your team)

I don't know about Bronzong.

Chandelure. I think it should stay in C only because it's a good Scarfer and a decent stallbreaker that spinblocks. Also, OU is currenty very lacking in offensive Ghosts, meaning that it will be good to have an alternative to gengar, even though is outclassed by the former (ut not totally and has notable niches). Also, Fire + Ghost is very great coverage (only resisted by M houndoom, Crawdaunt (it can't switch in because paper SpD), Hydreigon and (Mega) Tyranitar (who is the biggest problem) as relevant OU pokemon )

Espeon shouyldn'0t drop that low. Espeon has a notable niche in Deniss' current team (alexwofl talked about it) AND Espeon does something that M Absol can't even do:
-Espeon forces many users to think twice before using many status moves (specially if the user hates those status).
Examples:
-A wall that want to use Toxic but it hates itself to Toxic, a SR setter in a team with bird-spam, Taunt on a stallbreaker pokemo (like Mew), Thunder Wave in some random pokemon (and give thanks that Electrics are now inmune), trying to pseudo-haze only to be pseudo-hazed when hazards are still up or even a Gengar/mew being urned by his own Will-o-Wisp are reason to rank Espeon.

With this, I think it should stay C

I don't know Toxicroak so much.

Tornadus-I should be D rank ecause it's badly outclassed by the Tornadus-T counterpart. Frosllas is fine in C and I don't know about Gourgeist-Small niche.

I also think that many pokemon that are in D rank are fine in this rank. It may be niche, but the niche is still important to bused.

Alexwolf said that Torn-I's advantage is its higher offensive stats or something like that that allows it to wallbreak better. I dunno, but I would prefer not to bring back the same discussion that we had 5/6/7 pages back.

 

[Alfalfa]

Okay, so this thread has been inactive for almost an entire day, so I want to spur up some discussion with a nomination:

Initially, I wanted to wait a short while, like a week or so, while before nominating Wobbuffet again to move up a rank. A week later, I still do not see B- as too far off for Wobbuffet. It is a trapper for offensive teams that gives them leverage against opposing offensive teams, because Wobbuffet can win a lot of one-on-ones against a plethora of offensive Pokemon, resulting in trapping / KOing at least one or two opposing Pokemon each match. (Wish support is mediocre, please do not say Wobb needs it, I do not know why everybody thinks Wobbuffet teams need Wish support when they are mostly offensive. Healing Wish is much more fitting to the teams Wobb fits on) It is not outclassed by Gothitelle because Goth is complete ass versus offense, whereas Wobb is ass versus stall, though it can trap Slowbro and Ferrothorn, though the latter is done less consistently. Encore + Safeguard is very useful support for Wobb's teammates, as it gives them free turns to come in (Encore prevents Wobb from being set-up bait, which is nice as well. Safeguard is not really used to keep Wobb clean of status, but more a teammate). Wobb does has flaws, such as being worn down fast, being weak to Knock Off, and being pitass slow, but it is still really good at what it does (and to be fair, Wobb can actually beat some Knock Off users, such as Azumarill and Conkeldurr, one-on-one, and I think its pros outweigh its cons enough for it to move up to B- Rank.

Please discuss.

 

[Alfalfa]

hmm i think that goth and wobb are equally viable tag users so either wobb rises or goth drops


how does that sound?

There has already been discussion about dropping Goth, but I will note that Goth is much harder to fit onto a team than Wobbuffet. Do other people agree with Smog Frog's proposal?

 

[pika pal]

hmm i think that goth and wobb are equally viable tag users so either wobb rises or goth drops


how does that sound?

I don't know if the two can be ranked quite the same as far as viability. The following is based on my admittedly limited understanding of the two, so I apologize if I miss a crucial detail in their usage.

Gothitelle relies on trapping something relatively passive, or at least something it can counter, and either setting up on it or crippling it by tricking it a Choice Item. Thing is, Gothitelle shits on stall, but is hard pressed to pull its weight against offense because of its speed and "meh" bulk. As far as trapping a threat, Gothitelle can cripple it permanently, but often goes down itself in doing so. Gothitelle works best if you need to break Stall or, less often, balanced teams that have one particular problem for your Win-Con or your important core.

Wobbuffet, on the other hand, has a slightly more narrow, though no less useful movepool. Wobbuffet itself is has much higher bulk than Goth, but obviously does nothing to Stall. However, against offense, Wobbuffet can potentially come in more than once to Encore something, even without Wish/Healing Wish support. Wobbuffet creates a set-up opportunity for a teammate, who can hopefully set up and break its checks on its own at that point, compared to Goth who cripples one counter completely.

Now here's why I think Wobbuffet deserves higher viability. In the current Meta-Game, Stall is already struggling. They have to prepare for offensive powerhouses like the Mega Wallbreakers, often relying on mons with few other jobs, like Doublade (who can't be trapped anyway). Gothitelle's ability to cripple Stall isn't as needed in a Meta-Game where offense has the tools to power through it sooner or later.

Wobb, on the other hand, is helpful against the offensive oriented Meta-game, whether it be allowing set-up in Offense v. Offense matches, or neutering a powerhouse through either Encore or just Counter/Mirror Coat in desperation for Stall. Encore and Safeguard can mitigate passive damage from Stallbreakers relying on a combination of Taunt and Status like Mew, or locking the opponent into the one move that prevents something from otherwise countering them.

Like I said, I'm speaking from limited experience and observation, but I think Wobbuffet for B- at least, the same or higher than Gothitelle.

 

[Silver Scrapes]

I really feel like Zygarde needs to move up. I don't really know to where, but D-rank is really not where it belongs.

Zygarde sports 108/121/95 bulk, higher than that of Hippowdon, one of the most bulky 'mons in the game, supported by his still fantastic Dragon/Ground typing. His 95 speed, while not great, is still decent and can be augmented by Dragon Dance or bypassed by Extreme Speed. His 100 Attack, much like his Speed, isn't that good. However, like his Speed, it can be boosted by Dragon Dance, or by his other option, Coil, making him massively bulky and a pain in the neck to bring down. He also resists Stealth Rocks, which DDancing competitors Dragonite and Salamence wish they could claim.

His only real issues are low power and speed off the bat and Outrage being his only decent Dragon attacking option. This can be somewhat mitigated by Lum Berry or by careful play - no OU Fairy with the exception of Togekiss wants to eat a boosted Earthquake.

His ability to eat up hits and set up multiple Dragon Dances or Coils with Extreme Speed to boot is not to be overlooked, though.

I don't really know where to put him, but he's at least better than Haxorus. C or C+, in my mind. Not good enough for B-rank, but C is worthy of such a bulky DDancer with Espeed.

 

[Mean Mr Snorlax]

Zygarde really isn't that good. Incredibly easy to wear down, somewhat slow and not that powerful, all things considered, is forced to use Outrage for physical Dragon STAB which leaves it very prone to being revenged by a Fairy or having a steel like Ferrothorn switch in. It is an incredibly easy mon to beat at +1 until late game, and if you're looking for a late game cleaner use Lucario or CB Nite or something.

D Rank is fine for Zygarde

Anyway, I would like to bring up a nomination I made on the last page again. It got a fair amount of likes, but no one really discussed it because all the discussion was focused on Bisharp and the lower ranks.

I'd like to suggest Kyurem-Black for A-.

I've found that Cube performs amazingly in this meta. Teravolt is really nice for breaking things like Rotom-W, Dragonite, Mega Venusaur, and Rhyperior. It has ungodly 170/120 offenses and just good enough a movepool to make use of them. Its 125/100/90 defenses are great, and its base 95 speed, while by no means ideal, gives it a decent speed tier. Regardless of set, it can revenge BD Azumarill, Diggersby, Crawdaunt, TG Manaphy (barring Wacan sets), and (Mega-)Gyarados lacking Stone Edge.

The scarf set can revenge all kinds of shit, like Adamant Charizard-X and Dragonite (even when multiscale is intact) after a DD, Mega Pinsir, SD Garchomp, SD Terrakion, and Lucario that lack Bullet Punch. Scarf also lets it beat Keldeo, Lati@s, and Scarf Landorus-T. Besides R-Killing all kinds of threats, late game it can just come in and clean up by spamming Outrage.

A set that I think is really underrated is an Assault Vest set. I've been using this a lot lately and it has been working wonders. This allows it to easily take on shit like Greninja, Mega Manectric, Raikou, LO Gengar, Landorus-I , Thundurus (can't switch in on Focus Blast from these three, other attacks no problem and can take a focus blast if it gets in safe), and Omastar (can't switch in on Shell Smash sets, but can take a hit and KO back, even after Rocks: +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kyurem-B in Rain: 256-302 (63.5 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock), and Mega Charizard Y (Can only switch in on Solar Beam)

With the current Metagame overflowing with Greninja, Gengar, Electrics, and Rain, being able to check (Counter in the case of Greninja and the Electrics bar Thundy) the above threats all with one pokemon is amazing. Also, if a set of Fusion Bolt/Ice Beam/Earth Power/Iron Head is used (which IMO is optimal) Mega-Gardevoir, Clefable, Mamoswine, Weavile (barring Low Kick), and Sylveon can be beaten.

Other sets such as Sub + 3 Attacks and LO Roost + 3 Attacks also seem pretty damn good but I haven't used them enough to really comment.

Now, Cube does have its fair share of problems, such as a generally bad defensive typing, an SR weakness, and a somewhat middling speed tier, but all the support it really needs to do its job well is Spin/Defog support, which most teams can provide with little cost.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

To me, that describes Cube very well. It beats mons that are really common in the current meta, needs very little support to do so outside of SR removal, and its prowess at what it does easily compensates for its flaws.

I think Cube is easily on par with some other A- mons, like Manaphy and Mega Aerodactyl, and I certainly think it is better than some other B+ mons like Alomomola and Celebi in the current Metagame.

So, any thoughts on Cube for A-?

 

[Alfalfa]

I don't know if the two can be ranked quite the same as far as viability. The following is based on my admittedly limited understanding of the two, so I apologize if I miss a crucial detail in their usage.

Gothitelle relies on trapping something relatively passive, or at least something it can counter, and either setting up on it or crippling it by tricking it a Choice Item. Thing is, Gothitelle shits on stall, but is hard pressed to pull its weight against offense because of its speed and "meh" bulk. As far as trapping a threat, Gothitelle can cripple it permanently, but often goes down itself in doing so. Gothitelle works best if you need to break Stall or, less often, balanced teams that have one particular problem for your Win-Con or your important core.

Wobbuffet, on the other hand, has a slightly more narrow, though no less useful movepool. Wobbuffet itself is has much higher bulk than Goth, but obviously does nothing to Stall. However, against offense, Wobbuffet can potentially come in more than once to Encore something, even without Wish/Healing Wish support. Wobbuffet creates a set-up opportunity for a teammate, who can hopefully set up and break its checks on its own at that point, compared to Goth who cripples one counter completely.

Now here's why I think Wobbuffet deserves higher viability. In the current Meta-Game, Stall is already struggling. They have to prepare for offensive powerhouses like the Mega Wallbreakers, often relying on mons with few other jobs, like Doublade (who can't be trapped anyway). Gothitelle's ability to cripple Stall isn't as needed in a Meta-Game where offense has the tools to power through it sooner or later.

Wobb, on the other hand, is helpful against the offensive oriented Meta-game, whether it be allowing set-up in Offense v. Offense matches, or neutering a powerhouse through either Encore or just Counter/Mirror Coat in desperation for Stall. Encore and Safeguard can mitigate passive damage from Stallbreakers relying on a combination of Taunt and Status like Mew, or locking the opponent into the one move that prevents something from otherwise countering them.

Like I said, I'm speaking from limited experience and observation, but I think Wobbuffet for B- at least, the same or higher than Gothitelle.

Well, Taunt ruins Wobbuffet, and most stallbreakers beat Wobbuffet because of it, unless you are saying that it can set up a Safeguard before the stallbreaker even comes in - is that what you are trying to say?. As I said before, Wobb can only trap defensive Pokemon that are slower than it (ie Slowbro and Ferrothorn), so its use against stall is based on match-up, but its upper hand against the more common offensive teams is indeed the point I am trying to make.

 

[pika pal]

Well, Taunt ruins Wobbuffet, and most stallbreakers beat Wobbuffet because of it, unless you are saying that it can set up a Safeguard before the stallbreaker even comes in - is that what you are trying to say?. As I said before, Wobb can only trap defensive Pokemon that are slower than it (ie Slowbro and Ferrothorn), so its use against stall is based on match-up, but its upper hand against the more common offensive teams is indeed the point I am trying to make.

I admit I probably didn't think the statement all the way through, but I actually have occasionally seen Mental herb Wobb for something like setting up Safeguard against a WoW or Toxic user, though yeah, Encore doesn't do much.

I guess I was trying to say Wobbuffet has occasional niche uses on and against Stall, versus Gothitelle who I at least can't quite think of doing much against an offensive team.

 

[theV8man]

So, any thoughts on Cube for A-?

I'm really liking Cube right now. It completely tears apart slower, bulkier teams, and it can beat/set up on a lot of faster mons like Greninja and Manectric. If this thing has a substitute up and your opponent doesn't have a Chansey/Clefable/Sylveon, you are gonna wreck with lightning-ground-ice coverage. Now the main problem with Cube is its defensive typing that leaves it weak to Rock, Fairy, Steel, Fighting, and Dragon. However, some of the most common Pokemon that you'd regularly have on your team cover these weaknesses. For example, Lando-t takes care of the Rock, Fighting, and Steel weakness for the most part. Then, if you have a steel type, which most teams have, you have the fairy and dragon weaknesses covered as well! Cube is also great, because when SR aren't up it can switch into a lot of stuff quite easily. So far I've only really been talking about the Sub/leftovers/3 attacks set, but there are other great sets like AV which gives it a nicer time vs. offense, life orb/roost which helps it hit harder and break through Chansey/Fairies, and of course choice scarf which revenges like everything. I totally think Cube can go up to A-, especially with the popularity of Greninja, Azumarill, and some other examples that I can't think of but that Cube can check.

 

[MilkyWay]

Against stall teams i find Wobbuffet can encore something, set up a safeguard, and then switch out, giving a teammate a free turn to set up. So i wouldnt go as far to say that Wobbuffett is useless against stall; it just doesnr really beat anything on stall 1 v 1like it does against offense. Personally i think wobb is way better than goth because it can almost always do something regardless of team matchup, where goth is almost always dead weight when the thing its trying to trap isnt on the opponents team.

 

[Rosen]

so in addition to weavile and lucario gettin the bump up, I'd like to see Toxicroak get a raise. One of the only fighters that doesn't auto-lose to fairies, access to swords dance and sucker punch, and, unlike bisharp, dry skin lets it not autolose to keldeo, azu, and CROCUNE thanks to SCALD IMMUNITY BITCHES praise be

so vile nd luke for B, croak for C+ pls nd ty

 

[Mean Mr Snorlax]

so in addition to weavile and lucario gettin the bump up, I'd like to see Toxicroak get a raise. One of the only fighters that doesn't auto-lose to fairies, access to swords dance and sucker punch, and, unlike bisharp, dry skin lets it not autolose to keldeo, azu, and CROCUNE thanks to SCALD IMMUNITY BITCHES praise be

so vile nd luke for B, croak for C+ pls nd ty

I'd just like to point out that Keldeo still 2HKOs Toxicroak with Specs Secret Sword

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 147-174 (47.8 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Also, Lucario, who you want to raise to B, also doesn't lose to fairies when packing BP, and is generally better than Toxicroak in almost every way.

I could see Croak going to C+, but honestly C seems to fit it just fine.

 

[Rosen]

I'd just like to point out that Keldeo still 2HKOs Toxicroak with Specs Secret Sword

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 147-174 (47.8 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Also, Lucario, who you want to raise to B, also doesn't lose to fairies when packing BP, and is generally better than Toxicroak in almost every way.

I could see Croak going to C+, but honestly C seems to fit it just fine.

if toxi's packing drain punch that turns into a 3hko so croakers wins there but yeah not the most reliable check

and yeah luke is better than croak, hence why it should be ranked higher, but croak beats azu where luke does not (unless set up ofc)

 

[Alfalfa]

if toxi's packing drain punch that turns into a 3hko so croakers wins there but yeah not the most reliable check

and yeah luke is better than croak, hence why it should be ranked higher, but croak beats azu where luke does not (unless set up ofc)

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 255-300 (83 - 97.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

If Toxicroak is at full health and Gunk Shot does not miss, then maybe, but that is still really situational.

 

[Rosen]

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 255-300 (83 - 97.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

If Toxicroak is at full health and Gunk Shot does not miss, then maybe, but that is still really situational.

LO poison jab ohkos w/ adamant nature after sr

Also you outspeed, so...

 

[AM]

Sorry to but into your riveting Toxicroak discussion but...

C+ -> C

Sticky Web Offense was just way better around the time M-Mawile got the boot because there wasn't such an insurgence of some threats like Gengar and Lando-T while Bisharp usage was declining as part of the after effects of Aegislash leaving the tier. Fast forward to present day meta the scenario has reversed where offense is packing threats that are immune to Sticky Web, dangerous and top tier ones such as those mentioned, Hawlucha, Char Y, more Latios, and so forth. Bisharp usage has increased and as such, Sticky Web offense can be a liability to run when such a threat can get to +2 instantaneously and as such puts a burden on the user of Sticky Web Offense. It can be a liability at times when half of the team you're facing more than likely is immune to Sticky Webs, the Latis being such common defoggers being immune as well, or in the case of certain defensive cores, has absolutely no care for it what so ever. The trait of utilizing Sticky Web consistently has definitely lost its value, however Shuckle can provide set up opportunities with Encore, guaranteed SR as a lead in pretty much all cases, and has a very respectable bulk to accomplish this multiple times if necessary. So all in all it's not that bad but when one of your main attributes relies on a hazard setting playstyle that is now even easier to ignore due to meta game trends, with an increase in viability of these hazard removers or immune mons, I think it's time that the key component of Sticky Web Offense should drop a sub rank.

 

[Olly]

I think Crawdaunt needs to move up to B+/A-.

Crawdaunt really wrecks stall like no other right now as well. Most stall teams have adjusted to deal with Mega Heracross (Gliscor with Acrobatics etc.), have a natural switch in for Diggersby (Skarmory). The only things ever ran for Crawdaunt are Mega Venusaur who is much easier to wear down, and only needs to be worn down a bit for Crawdaunt to sweep (+2 Knock Off does 66.4%-78.5% to standard defensive Mega Venusaur), and the rare Chesnaught, which honestly is the only real definitive stop to Crawdaunt.

I think Crawdaunt is better in the current meta than Diggersby is, who seems to have a harder time setting up, and more exploitable STABs. What actually wants to switch in to a Crawdaunt Knock Off? Most dark resists don't want to lose their item or have another reason they wouldn't want to switch in (eg. Terrakion). Some of the most popular Knock Off absorbers also don't want to switch in. Aqua Jet also has more utility than Quick Attack vs offensive teams.

 

[Alfalfa]

Sorry to but into your riveting Toxicroak discussion but...

C+ > C

Sticky Web Offense was just way better around the time M-Mawile got the boot because there wasn't such an insurgence of some threats like Gengar and Lando-T while Bisharp usage was declining as part of the after effects of Aegislash leaving the tier. Fast forward to present day meta the scenario has reversed where offense is packing threats that are immune to Sticky Web, dangerous and top tier ones such as those mentioned, Hawlucha, Char Y, more Latios, and so forth. Bisharp usage has increased and as such, Sticky Web offense can be a liability to run when such a threat can get to +2 instantaneously and as such puts a burden on the user of Sticky Web Offense. It can be a liability at times when half of the team you're facing more than likely is immune to Sticky Webs, the Latis being such common defoggers being immune as well, or in the case of certain defensive cores, has absolutely no care for it what so ever. The trait of utilizing Sticky Web consistently has definitely lost its value, however Shuckle can provide set up opportunities with Encore, guaranteed SR as a lead in pretty much all cases, and has a very respectable bulk to accomplish this multiple times if necessary. So all in all it's not that bad but when one of your main attributes relies on a hazard setting playstyle that is now even easier to ignore due to meta game trends, with an increase in viability of these hazard removers or immune mons, I think it's time that the key component of Sticky Web Offense should drop a sub rank.

Yeah, Sticky Web teams are threatened by so much in this metagame, and are so easy to play around. I feel like a drop is necessary to show that Sticky Web teams are not that good anymore.

 

[MilkyWay]

I'd just like to point out that Keldeo still 2HKOs Toxicroak with Specs Secret Sword

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 147-174 (47.8 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Also, Lucario, who you want to raise to B, also doesn't lose to fairies when packing BP, and is generally better than Toxicroak in almost every way.

I could see Croak going to C+, but honestly C seems to fit it just fine.

I'm pretty sure Toxicroak runs some hp investment (at least it did in bw) so im not sure how reliable those calcs are. Also keldeo needs stealth rock down and correct prediction to 2hko toxicroak, and thats assuming that it isnt raining (dry skin recovery) and that toxicroak has no defensive investment....At the very worst it prevents Keldeo from freely spamming scald and it cant be worn down by a burn like many of keldeo's other checks / counters.

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 255-300 (83 - 97.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

If Toxicroak is at full health and Gunk Shot does not miss, then maybe, but that is still really situational.

I wouldnt call Toxicroak checking Azumarill "really situational". If Azumarill has a choice band, perfect prediction, and stealth rock down Toxicroak can switch in and beat it most of the time. Also like i just said, i really think Toxicroak runs some hp investment so i dont completely trust that calc. Anyways, Azumarill's most common set is the Assaul Vest set, which Toxicroak faires much better against. With the combination of rain and drain punch toxicroak will be very hard to wear down too which makes it even harder for Azumarill. Toxicroak is also an answer to the Belly Drum set after Azu sets up, however, it wouldnt be able to switch into play rough. All in all toxicroak is a pretty good answer to Azumarill and it makes it think twice before clicking a water attack because we all know how dangerous Swords Dance + Sucker Punch can be

 

[Mean Mr Snorlax]

I'm pretty sure Toxicroak runs some hp investment (at least it did in bw) so im not sure how reliable those calcs are. Also keldeo needs stealth rock down and correct prediction to 2hko toxicroak, and thats assuming that it isnt raining (dry skin recovery) and that toxicroak has no defensive investment....At the very worst it prevents Keldeo from freely spamming scald and it cant be worn down by a burn like many of keldeo's other checks / counters.




I wouldnt call Toxicroak checking Azumarill "really situational". If Azumarill has a choice band, perfect prediction, and stealth rock down Toxicroak can switch in and beat it most of the time. Also like i just said, i really think Toxicroak runs some hp investment so i dont completely trust that calc. Anyways, Azumarill's most common set is the Assaul Vest set, which Toxicroak faires much better against. With the combination of rain and drain punch toxicroak will be very hard to wear down too which makes it even harder for Azumarill. Toxicroak is also an answer to the Belly Drum set after Azu sets up, however, it wouldnt be able to switch into play rough. All in all toxicroak is a pretty good answer to Azumarill and it makes it think twice before clicking a water attack because we all know how dangerous Swords Dance + Sucker Punch can be

0/0 is the usage set, and I've never seen it run a significant amount of HP in XY. Even without SR down (which is something that is very easy to get down) it's still got a good chance to 2HKO. Toxicroak isn't used exclusively in rain, so factoring in Dry Skin recovery would be silly.

Also, I don't know where you got Choice Band from; that Azumarill calc doesn't have Choice Band.

 

[lalala45]

I think Crawdaunt needs to move up to B+/A-.

Crawdaunt really wrecks stall like no other right now as well. Most stall teams have adjusted to deal with Mega Heracross (Gliscor with Acrobatics etc.), have a natural switch in for Diggersby (Skarmory). The only things ever ran for Crawdaunt are Mega Venusaur who is much easier to wear down, and only needs to be worn down a bit for Crawdaunt to sweep (+2 Knock Off does 66.4%-78.5% to standard defensive Mega Venusaur), and the rare Chesnaught, which honestly is the only real definitive stop to Crawdaunt.

I think Crawdaunt is better in the current meta than Diggersby is, who seems to have a harder time setting up, and more exploitable STABs. What actually wants to switch in to a Crawdaunt Knock Off? Most dark resists don't want to lose their item or have another reason they wouldn't want to switch in (eg. Terrakion). Some of the most popular Knock Off absorbers also don't want to switch in. Aqua Jet also has more utility than Quick Attack vs offensive teams.

... Well I don't know about moving crawdaunt that high, but most of what you said is true, his frailty though is concerning which is why I wondered why you ranked him so high. I used crawdaunt for forever and a day, but I know that whatever I run him, I gotta be careful of what I switch him into or else he will be worn down very quickly. You don't know whether that hippowdon is going to anticipate your switch and just eq instead of going for rocks like every hippo, congratulations you just lost a third to half your health, so more risk is on your crawdaunt now that you forced to be conservative.

But then again, crawdaunt is freaking good, because water/dark + coverage move is such a godly combination that I almost exclusively run rain with him just to checkmate my opponents. The fact that only chesnaught and maybe a bulky toxicroak is able to stand up to him attests to that sentiment, and its almost worth it just to make my secondary sweeper/wallbreaker have an easier time. Always run a second wallbreaker that can take care of those checks, like victini or something.


...You know what I'm even more curious about, diggersby, because diggersby functions just like crawdaunt with the only differences between it and crawdaunt is the typing and some minor stat variablity, where normal/ground is like really bad in terms of weaknesses. Its like weak to every priority move in the game bar shadow sneak. At least crawdaunt can take aqua jets, shadow sneaks, sucker punches, ice shards if it has to. I really honestly don't know why diggersby is higher up on the rankings :/. This viability ranking thing makes no sense sometimes. Is it because its faster or because agility or spikes? Both mons are frail dudes.

 

[QueenOfHax]

So, any thoughts on Cube for A-?

I support this. Its AV set hard counters Greninja and has a good chance of beating Latios 1 vs 1, while the Scarf set can revenge kill Charizard X and Keldeo. That's the entire S-rank right here and that alone is an indication that Kyu-B has no business down in B+.

Of course Kyu-B can still run its more traditional Sub and LO sets which completely mess up balance and stall teams alike, and now that Rapid Spinning is easier than ever thanks to Aegislash's ban, it has plenty of opportunities to switch in and wreck havoc.

Finally, Kyu-B is still the best one-mon answer to the common bulky offensive pokemon such as M-Venusaur, Heatran and Landorus-T that are found in pretty much every team and this niche is the reason it was an A rank pokemon in the first place.

 

[Daniel Farmer]

... Well I don't know about moving crawdaunt that high, but most of what you said is true, his frailty though is concerning which is why I wondered why you ranked him so high. I used crawdaunt for forever and a day, but I know that whatever I run him, I gotta be careful of what I switch him into or else he will be worn down very quickly. You don't know whether that hippowdon is going to anticipate your switch and just eq instead of going for rocks like every hippo, congratulations you just lost a third to half your health, so more risk is on your crawdaunt now that you forced to be conservative.

But then again, crawdaunt is freaking good, because water/dark + coverage move is such a godly combination that I almost exclusively run rain with him just to checkmate my opponents. The fact that only chesnaught and maybe a bulky toxicroak is able to stand up to him attests to that sentiment, and its almost worth it just to make my secondary sweeper/wallbreaker have an easier time. Always run a second wallbreaker that can take care of those checks, like victini or something.


...You know what I'm even more curious about, diggersby, because diggersby functions just like crawdaunt with the only differences between it and crawdaunt is the typing and some minor stat variablity, where normal/ground is like really bad in terms of weaknesses. Its like weak to every priority move in the game bar shadow sneak. At least crawdaunt can take aqua jets, shadow sneaks, sucker punches, ice shards if it has to. I really honestly don't know why diggersby is higher up on the rankings :/. This viability ranking thing makes no sense sometimes. Is it because its faster or because agility or spikes? Both mons are frail dudes.

yeah Diggersby is frail but Crawdaunt is actually a lot frailer than Diggersby on both sides.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 516-608 (165.3 - 194.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 474-560 (176.8 - 208.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Diggersby: 343-406 (109.9 - 130.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 446-526 (166.4 - 196.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As you can see crawdaunt is actually a lot frailer than diggersby on the special side. Yeah diggersby is frail but at least it can take some resisted hits and it also resists SR so that's a thing. Diggersby's priority also has better neutral coverage than crawdaunt's bc AJ is resisted by Keldeo and Latios and Greninja all S rank mons but Diggersby has an easier time sweeping at +2 thanks to quick attack's better neutral coverage. The other thing is Diggersby is fast enough to outspeed stuff like defensive Rotom , mega venusaur, mega heracross but crawdaunt can't even with jolly if they're running a bit of speed.