Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[Baharoth]

Man, people are really downplaying how bad it is to lose to Latis right now. The fact that the Lati twins are both solid checks to Landorus-I IMO should be the main argument for dropping it down. Let's face it, if an offensive team isn't running Latias or Latias, it's probably offensive enough to the point where Lando is going to have a really hard time doing much against it anyway. And yeah, you can Knock Off, but a) that doesn't actually OHKO Latios, and even Latias takes it after rocks, sure it doesn't take it well but it takes it, which means Lando-I has to switch out or risk facing massive damage to the point where it's really easy to revenge kill afterwards (heck you even have a very good chance to OHKO after rocks even w/ LO knocked off assuming the standard 184 SpA spread on Latias and a naive nature and 10% LO damage on Lando) and b) the Lati switchin may be really predictable, but by extension, so is Knock Off. For that reason Knock Off is not a safe move to use at all, since the opponent can predict it and send in something else that can take one Earth Power like Keldeo (yes, I know Knock Off cripples it and it still takes huge damage from Earth Power but you still threaten an OHKO on Lando-I with Scald even specsless, and I know Psychic OHKOs Keldeo but you have to be a prediction god to predict Keldeo as opposed to the Lati to come in in that scenario) so if you knock off and that happens you've literally just wasted a turn, and now Lando-I is going to have to switch out without having done anything of note besides remove one item and will have one hell of a hard time coming back in since it basically loses to 60-80% of your average offensive team 1v1 (the last 40-20% being the stallbreaker and maybe the rock setter/Magnezone if included).

So yeah, Lando-I tends to really struggle vs offense. And sure, it's great vs balance, but so are all 5 mega wallbreakers (MMedi, MHera, MGarde, MPinsir, and YZard), if anything even more so because their main STABs are far more spammable and don't have an omnipresent immunity, they have more power backing them up (with the exception of MGarde who, fun fact, hits exactly as hard as Lando-I - do the calcs if you don't believe me), and are just way harder to switch into in general. 2 of these have lesser bulk which compromises their ability to abuse defensive Pokemon as well as their ability to do anything vs offense (though MGarde has one guaranteed switchin vs offense under the form of Latis which is nice), but the other 2 have either comparable or higher bulk (hello Mega-Heracross) and, much like Lando-I, have pretty damn good defensive typings to back up that bulk too. In terms of prowess vs offense+ability to make defensive teams cry, I really don't see Lando-I as superior to MPinsir, or even MHera or YZard come think of it. I guess an argument can be made for versatility, but at the end of the day it's really just one move (and if you run anything other than Knock Off, then you're pretty much useless vs offense since Latis just laugh at you)

As stated all so often, nothing likes switching into knock off so clicking it is a no brainer for lando. Yeah the Latis live it barely, Latias even after rocks with some HP investment but they are crippled to the point where they are basicly useless afterwards. They are a one time check to Lando and not even a solid one at that. Not to mention that its easy to pair Lando with TTar or Bisharp to remove any Lati problems you might have.

And do you even realize that all the mons you are listing are Megas? Sure they can match his power or even exceed it but they take up your mega slot and most of them require far more support than lando. Char Y and Pinsir need the most with Pursuit/Zone and SR support, Gardevoir and Medi have piss weak defenses making it hard for them to come in on anything so they realy want some kind of u-turn/voltswitch pivot to get them in. Mega Hera can take a hit and switch in but is far slower. You say Lando is weak against offense and thats true to an extent, but its even more true for the Mega wallbreakers who have either worse typing/defenses, need more support and all of them are slower. And all of them have common counters running around. Lando-T/Gliscor for Hera, Slowbro/Mew for Cham, Skarm/Rotom-w/Lando-T for Pinsir, Jirachi for Garde and so on. And these arent shaky one time checks, they are for the most part hard checks or even counters. Now look at Lando-I. CBB Nite is nowhere to be found, SpD Gliscor is becoming more and more uncommon, Zapdos is about to drop to C rank here and also fairly uncommon so whats left? Nothing i can think of realy, only the Latis and they are as far away from a reliable counter as you can get.

I totally agree with TRC here, Lando-I is one of the mons that fits the S rank best, insane power, good typing and bulk for such an offensive threat (there arent that many things that can outspeed and ohko and it can even switch into Mega Hera what other offensive mon can do that?), needs no support what so ever and is easy to slap on a team. It easily rivals all the megas in terms of how effective it is overall without having their opportunity cost.

 

[mien]

(whoever says that lando needs a bigger deal of prediction than say keldeo is being a hypocrite considering that its coverage moves aren't only very fucking strong but also not needed most of the time as earth power literally wrecks 95% of the grounded mons anyway when combned with another move, whether they resist it or not)

I suppose this was addressed to me.

In the current metagame being able to wreck 95% of the pokemon who don't resist or immune your STAB attacks is hardly unique. Keldeo can 2HKO 95% of all non-water resists, Gardevoir-M can 2HKO all non-fairy resist hence even Landorus-T can do this and so do many others (like Heracross, Charizard, Terrakion...)

None of this carries any meaning prior to the lategame however, you'll rarely ever encounter a single offensive team who doesn't carry a floating pokemon with the ability to beat Landorus-I 1 on 1 if it switches into Earth Power. Meaning if you do not predict correctly in this scenario you'll render Landorus to become complete deadweight. Such a misprediction can easily cost you the entire game since Landorus (just like the other One Hit cannons mentioned above) is too slow to sweep teams early in the game and is difficult to bring in safely.

Keldeo on the other hand, always does guaranteed damage to any switch in even if resisted. Meaning that even pokemon who fully resist it's STAB attacks like Latios and Azumarill will not be able to switch in repeatedly(often only once due to Scald burns), whereas Landorus main STAB Earth Power will do no damage whatsoever meaning every single check can do the exact same thing over again later in the game. Why should i risk the 50/50 prediction guess if i can run something else who is far more consistent in bringing me one step closer to winning the game?

And all of them have common counters running around. Lando-T/Gliscor for Hera, Slowbro/Mew for Cham, Skarm/Rotom-w/Lando-T for Pinsir, Jirachi for Garde and so on. And these arent shaky one time checks, they are for the most part hard counters. Now look at Lando-I. CBB Nite is nowhere to found, SpD Gliscor is becoming more and more uncommon, Zapdos is about to drop to C rank here and also fairly uncommon so whats left? Nothing i can think of realy, only the Latis and they are as far away from a reliable counter as you can get.

I'm going to keep repeating this, on the top of the ladder there hardly is any stall or defensive play, as such being hard countered is not nearly as relevant as you may think it is. Since Hyper offensive is omnipresent, the only thing that should be on your mind is how well it performs against them.

 

[Baharoth]

I'm going to keep repeating this, on the top of the ladder there hardly is any stall or defensive play, as such being hard countered is not nearly as relevant as you may think it is. Since Hyper offensive is omnipresent, the only thing that should be on your mind is how well it performs against them.

Dont know how it is in the top 20 regions but around 1800 i see a lot of balanced/defensive teams and even the more offensive inclined teams often carry some kind of Pivot like Lando-T, Jirachi, Rotom-w or Mew. Most of the mons arent restricted to pure stall, they can be used on any kind of team.

 

[jbtc10]

Yeah Alexwolf is right about Mandibuzz, it's still good and I've been content with the results from it. It's still a solid general wall that trolls shit really well with Foul Play in that no physical attacker that doesn't resist it can switch in, which is always nice as it makes your opponents plays really predictable. Also, since stall has dropped in popularity pretty drastically, Mandi isn't as pressured to run Taunt anymore, so it can swap that for Toxic or U-Turn to either put the common switch-ins like Keldeo, Terrakion and Azumaril on a timer which is very handy since all of those mons are really hard to actually status due to their hit-and-run style of play, or to give a free switch-in with momentum. I've noticed lately that Volt-Turning into an asset like Mega Heracross or a hard hitting check to an opponents switch-in seems to becoming an ever more common and successful tactic, and Mandibuzz has a really good niche in that respect over other walls like Skarm because of having this option (not to mention not being practically forced to run a Shed Shell). That in combination with having very solid mixed bulk and a strong offensive capability means that it's still arguably as good or potentially better than Skarm for use on balanced teams, and as such I find it pretty silly to say it should undergo such a huge drop to C+ when it clearly doesn't deserve that at all at this point. A drop to B would be fine, but definitely not into the C's.

 

[Flamer]

I just want to make a quick post regarding Infernape. While, sure, its not the best mon, Ive found it is very good at breaking defensive cores and even cleaning late game with Scarf. It isnt the second coming of christ or anything but the mixed set actually does pretty well in this meta. With a shoot up in usage of defensive cores that aim to beat the wallbreaker megas, Infernape is able to single-handedly destroy them. A core I would like to use as an example is Lando-T/Gliscor, Slowbro and Jirachi. With a set of HP Ice, Fire Blast, Grass Knot and CC, Infernape beats the entire core and doesnt take up the mega slot, allowing you to use Mega Gard/ Hera/ Cham to destroy lives. It also fares decently against offensive teams, although the huge usage of Lati@s means it can struggle sometimes, though using Mega Garde can help mitigate this somewhat as they are a free switchin and Jirachi, Gardes supposed counter in this core, can do nothing back to him. His scarf set is also pretty decent as a revenge killer, momentum grabber and cleaner. It is mostly outclassed by Keldeo but it has several Key advantages (mostly the fact that Keldeos STAB combo has a lot of resists and it sports coverage with higher base power. Infernape certainly isnt C material and can even be considered a B- mon (assuming Cress gets B, which it should) so with that said I will nominate Infernape for B-, its much better than the shit in C+ and can be seen as on par with mons in B- like Chesnaught, Sableye and Weavile, fairly outclassed by mons in higher ranks but have their own niches, in Infernapes case beating common defensive and balanced cores without using a Mega Slot, allowing a Mega to do its job more effectively.

 

[SSJ]

I just want to make a quick post regarding Infernape. While, sure, its not the best mon, Ive found it is very good at breaking defensive cores and even cleaning late game with Scarf. It isnt the second coming of christ or anything but the mixed set actually does pretty well in this meta. With a shoot up in usage of defensive cores that aim to beat the wallbreaker megas, Infernape is able to single-handedly destroy them. A core I would like to use as an example is Lando-T/Gliscor, Slowbro and Jirachi. With a set of HP Ice, Fire Blast, Grass Knot and CC, Infernape beats the entire core and doesnt take up the mega slot, allowing you to use Mega Gard/ Hera/ Cham to destroy lives. It also fares decently against offensive teams, although the huge usage of Lati@s means it can struggle sometimes, though using Mega Garde can help mitigate this somewhat as they are a free switchin and Jirachi, Gardes supposed counter in this core, can do nothing back to him. His scarf set is also pretty decent as a revenge killer, momentum grabber and cleaner. It is mostly outclassed by Keldeo but it has several Key advantages (mostly the fact that Keldeos STAB combo has a lot of resists and it sports coverage with higher base power. Infernape certainly isnt C material and can even be considered a B- mon (assuming Cress gets B, which it should) so with that said I will nominate Infernape for B-, its much better than the shit in C+ and can be seen as on par with mons in B- like Chesnaught, Sableye and Weavile, fairly outclassed by mons in higher ranks but have their own niches, in Infernapes case beating common defensive and balanced cores without using a Mega Slot, allowing a Mega to do its job more effectively.

I have also been using mixed infernape and it has actually worked out really well for me. He's got pretty nice coverage and STAB CC 2HKO's eviolite chansey. I use nasty plot instead of HP Ice and it does have a bit loss of coverage, but has a lot of power, especially with LO. I didn't notice that he was all the way down in C rank. I totally agree that he out classes, or is a bit better than, other pokemon in C rank and he deserves at least a B-.

 

[Baharoth]

The thing about Infernape is not that he doesnt work or isnt viable, he has all the tools he needs to get the job done. The issue with him is that Keldeo does almost everything better, like destroying the mentioned defensive core for example. Scald/Secret Sword/Hp Electric with LO solves the problem just as well but Keldeo is the better pokemon overall. Because he is so outclassed i would normally say he should be C+ at most, but since Cress is B- as well i would be fine with moving him up to B- or even B.

 

[SSJ]

Infernape has also got access to HP ice which means he can easily take out physically defensive Landorus-T and Gliscor. And I'm pretty sure having grass knot helps against Poke's like milotic, quagsire and maybe even azumarill.

 

[RotomPoison]

Infernape has also got access to HP ice which means he can easily take out physically defensive Landorus-T and Gliscor. And I'm pretty sure having grass knot helps against Poke's like milotic, quagsire and maybe even azumarill.

No, HP Ice Infernape is useless because CC hits Latias harder and Fire Blast 2HKOs Landorus. Dragonite beats you no matter what. I also disagree with Infernape rising because it is usable but outclassed (which is literally the definition of C rank)

 

[SSJ]

No, HP Ice Infernape is useless because CC hits Latias harder and Fire Blast 2HKOs Landorus. Dragonite beats you no matter what. I also disagree with Infernape rising because it is usable but outclassed (which is literally the definition of C rank)

Yeah but still, HP ice is still a good way to deal with gliscor and even though it is a bit outclassed, it does have great coverage and still can dent a lot of teams because no one would be expecting a mixed or specially oriented Infernape.

 

[AM]

Ok so someone brought up Wobbuffet and I guess the logic behind why some people don't want to bring it up is because what it does is "niche". I never knew that setting up opportunities for your team and sweepers as a whole is a niche thing now, go figure. Also this logic that something has to die to get it in is false. Sure that's an easy way to get it in, but double switches or just resistances to common mons such as M-Cham is a very easy way for Wobb to get in. Encore + Safeguard is a huge utility for it because it allows a team mate like SD Diggersby or M-Pinsir come in basically for free if you encored a support or status move, which isn't really hard considering what it's trapping. It makes life a living hell for a looooot of stuff because unless you're bringing something like a strong dark type, you're not actually ko'ing this off the bat and Sitrus Berry just prolongs that against harder hitters. Negating the ability to switch is a huge asset and Wobb right now is definitely good at providing that tool.

Goth should just drop honestly. Unlike Wobb it has an over dependency on team matchup to actually do its job and frankly the teams are either too offensive for it or simply don't have a single care of what it does, unlike Wobb who provides way more set up opportunities and punishes almost all relevant playstyles.

As far as alexwolfs suggestions go I'm fine with all of them especially Smeargle cause like Espeon nobody uses that outside of GeoPassing anyways.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Too many people see Wobb as an one trick pony. Yes, it can remove offensive threats, but it also allows for so much more. I'm all for Wobb rising. It's actually worked extremely well for me lately with the way the meta has been going. Pair it with a set up sweeper after using Safeguard and you're good to go, or just knock the opponent the fuck out because of how insanely hard it hits back because of its HP stat.

 

[Flarowak]

I don't agree with the Kyurem-B drop. It has all the assets of all the mega wallbreakers, without having to be a mega. With the ability to go mixed and have access to leftovers I see I see him on the same playing field if not higher than the others aside from Zard Y who is imo the best wallbreaker. His ability also really helps in taking out important mons like Rotom-W, Mega Venusaur etc.

 

[Tele]

Slowbro A rank -> A- rank
Basically I think that people overestimated Slowbro's role in the metagame after Aegislash ban; it has already been said that many pokemons took benefit from aegi's ban, especially wallbreaking MegaEvo, like Mega Gardevoir and Mega Heracross; these overpowered mons threaten Slowbro to the point that he represents an opportunity for them to come in and get a kill without much effort or just set up right in front of him; I will try to explain better what im saying:

- Mega Heracross can come in after a kill and one-shot Slowbro with Pin Missile; the player using Mega Heracross can also take advantage of this by correctly predicting when Slowbro is coming in for the opponent (not that hard to do) or he can predict when Slowbro is going to Slack Off and get a free switch in; furthermore people are preferring Grass Knot over Psyschock on Slowbro (probably to deal better with others Slowbro) giving the opportunity for the M Hera user to set a free substitute (which isnt an uncommon set);
- Sub Mega Gyarados just shits on Slowbro since there's no way for the Slowbro user to break the sub; this results in a +1 M Gyara behind a sub, which is probably going to sweep your entire team if you havent the right check;
- Taunt Mega Garde/Sub Mega Garde: with a little of prior damage Hypervoice kills it; Taunt prevents Slowbro from Twaving/Toxing M Garde, while Substitute is probably the best thing Mega garde can do against Slowbro since Scald can't break the sub; in this way the M Garde user can easily get at least 2 kill (if not more);
- SD Mega Pinsir also took great benefit from Aegi's ban and became very popular; even if people say that Slowbro is a great Flying spam check, this can't be true in the case of M Pinsir since SR + Return afte 1 SD always kill him;
- Mega Medicham: people saying Slowbro is a good Mega Medi check might be wrong since Thunderpunch makes it a 2KHO even without Sr damage; obviously some prediction is needed but this shouldn't be a problem since there arent much things that can switch in on M Medi (and Slowbro is one of these);
- Thundurus/Landorus-I: these 2 S-rank pokemons both incredibly threaten Slowbro; Thundurus always kill, while Earth Power of Lando-I always kill after Sr damage;
- Rotom-W is very annoying for a large part of the metagame, and Slowbro doesn't make an exception;
- Weak to Status: Slowbro can be burned, twave r Tox'd; for this reason he often needs some support, which can be a healer or a status absorber like Starmie (not a great core tho) or Clefable Magic Guard;
- Trappers like Wobbuffet and Gothitelle: Wobbuffet is faster than our Slowbro so it's easy for him to come in on a Scald, lock Slowbro into this move and kill him with Mirror Coat; Gothitelle is just an awful nightmare for Slowbro, especially the Trick-Calm Mind-Rest-Psychic/Psyshock set which usually gets another kill after Slowbro;
- VoltTurn: being weak both to electric and bug types, Slowbro isn't obviously a good VoltTurn check, Mega Manetric, Raikou and Magnezone all manage to kill him without effort.
-Secondary threats: Latios (Dmeteor+SR=kill), Greninja, Manaphy (CM+Rain Dance set or Tail Glow set), Breelom, Mega Venusaur, Mega Charizard Y.

 

[QuickBH]

I just want to make a quick post regarding Infernape. While, sure, its not the best mon, Ive found it is very good at breaking defensive cores and even cleaning late game with Scarf. It isnt the second coming of christ or anything but the mixed set actually does pretty well in this meta. With a shoot up in usage of defensive cores that aim to beat the wallbreaker megas, Infernape is able to single-handedly destroy them. A core I would like to use as an example is Lando-T/Gliscor, Slowbro and Jirachi. With a set of HP Ice, Fire Blast, Grass Knot and CC, Infernape beats the entire core and doesnt take up the mega slot, allowing you to use Mega Gard/ Hera/ Cham to destroy lives. It also fares decently against offensive teams, although the huge usage of Lati@s means it can struggle sometimes, though using Mega Garde can help mitigate this somewhat as they are a free switchin and Jirachi, Gardes supposed counter in this core, can do nothing back to him. His scarf set is also pretty decent as a revenge killer, momentum grabber and cleaner. It is mostly outclassed by Keldeo but it has several Key advantages (mostly the fact that Keldeos STAB combo has a lot of resists and it sports coverage with higher base power. Infernape certainly isnt C material and can even be considered a B- mon (assuming Cress gets B, which it should) so with that said I will nominate Infernape for B-, its much better than the shit in C+ and can be seen as on par with mons in B- like Chesnaught, Sableye and Weavile, fairly outclassed by mons in higher ranks but have their own niches, in Infernapes case beating common defensive and balanced cores without using a Mega Slot, allowing a Mega to do its job more effectively.

I would love for this to happen. I really have used this thing a lot and have managed to get to the mid 1800s with Infernape even post Aegislash meta. Using a spread of 168 Atk / 132 SpA / 208 Spe, I've found Infernape to be extremely beneficial to stall cores while still being good vs offensive teams. Using this spread, Infernape outspeeds Garchomp (which, besides Manectric pre mega evolution, is the fastest Pokemon you would need to outspeed anyways, as generally you would switch out anyways vs a Keldeo/Terrakion if Infernape is important to you) and can allow Infernape to do things such as CLEAN 2hko Slowbro after Stealth Rocks, beat out Mega Venusaur after Stealth Rock for a better chance, and the remaining stall Pokemon are unable to really beat Infernape. Sure, stall isn't a common meta, but one thing I find really nice is that Infernape still does well vs offense. Even the Lati@s still get chipped down pretty badly by CC, and most other Pokemon common on HO can't really take its coverage well. Mach Punch really lets Infernape do well in Offense too, as it gives Infernape access to priority which can do things such as revenge kill Greninja, a huge threat on offensive teams, Bisharp after +2/+4, (Keldeo can't really do this reliably as it takes around 70% from even +2) Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados at around 60%, and Excadrill, doing a minimum of 67%. Even though Mega Heracross can potentially do the latter 3, I find Mixed Infernape to be useful on HO teams that can't utilize Mega Heracross. As Infernape beats out a lot of stall while still being good on offense while not taking up a mega slot.

Hide

Relevant calcs.
132 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 196-231 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
132 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 156-187 (42.8 - 51.3%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
132 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 211-250 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
168 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 226-268 (79 - 93.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (After LO this percentage to OHKO greatly increases)
168 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 244-291 (67.5 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This was just bringing up the Mixed set, I haven't even mentioned any of its other sets, which also do well and shows Infernape's versatility. In particular the lead set, which does a good job of being a glue/suicide lead.

 

[theV8man]

I don't agree with the Kyurem-B drop. It has all the assets of all the mega wallbreakers, without having to be a mega. With the ability to go mixed and have access to leftovers I see I see him on the same playing field if not higher than the others aside from Zard Y who is imo the best wallbreaker. His ability also really helps in taking out important mons like Rotom-W, Mega Venusaur etc.

The thing about Kyurem-b is that is doesn't have all the assets of the wallbreaking megas. Yes, it doesn't take up a mega slot, but it's slower, has a horrendous defensive typing, and its wallbreaking set has a hard time against Chansey, and Ferrothorn, two common walls. Also, going mixed isn't really significant when the other wallbreakers are so insanely strong in attack or special attack that they can muscle their way past just about everything.

 

[Celticpride]

With regards to the Keldeo-Infernape comparison someone brought up, there are a few differences. First, Keldeo either has issues with Mega Venu or Slowbro depending on which HP you run. Also, and maybe it's just me, but I find a not-SR weak Fire type brings value over another Water type. You can very easily find yourself in situations with too many Waters, and even though it is a fantastic typing, those weaknesses stack rather quickly.

It is worth pointing out that Infernape's flaws are rather big. It has huge trouble with both Lati twins and Talonflame. Everything has checks and counters except Mega Heracross, but those seem to be 3 high usage and meta defining mons.

 

[QuickBH]

Rotom-W cannot switch in on 2 Close Combats even if it's physically defensive because it gets 2HKO'd after SR, not to mention Rotom-W gets 2HKO'd anyways after very little risidual damage, albiet that does not deter that it has noticable flaws that prevent it from being past B-.

168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 144-172 (47.3 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[Celticpride]

Rotom-W cannot switch in on 2 Close Combats even if it's physically defensive because it gets 2HKO'd after SR, not to mention Rotom-W gets 2HKO'd anyways after very little risidual damage, albiet that does not deter that it has noticable flaws that prevent it from being past B-.

168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 144-172 (47.3 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Huh, I did some calcs last night and must have remembered that wrong.

 

[kabbes]

It strikes me that "the meta" is essentially made up of several metas, being at least "low ladder", "mid ladder" and "high ladder". Anti-meta in one part might play into the hands of another part.

So what is this thread seeking to achieve? When we say something is "good in the meta right now"' which part of the meta do we mean? If this thread is trying to give advice to newbies, shouldn't it focus on effectiveness in the low ladder, and leave it to them to figure things out for themselves once they have more experience? Is it really useful for a newcomer to know what works well right now in the 1800+ ladder?

It's really the discussion in the last few pages that has suddenly made me wonder this, and I think it's a principle that really deserves spelling out one way or the other.

 

[RotomPoison]

It strikes me that "the meta" is essentially made up of several metas, being at least "low ladder", "mid ladder" and "high ladder". Anti-meta in one part might play into the hands of another part.

So what is this thread seeking to achieve? When we say something is "good in the meta right now"' which part of the meta do we mean? If this thread is trying to give advice to newbies, shouldn't it focus on effectiveness in the low ladder, and leave it to them to figure things out for themselves once they have more experience? Is it really useful for a newcomer to know what works well right now in the 1800+ ladder?

It's really the discussion in the last few pages that has suddenly made me wonder this, and I think it's a principle that really deserves spelling out one way or the other.

I see what you're saying, but saying we should focus on the low ladder is just a bad idea. The meta is (or should be) high quality, such as tours or the higher ladder. Viability doesn't change because people in the 1200s are garbage.

For the same reason, Landorus-T was always common and Terrakion was always A+ worthy, and a minor spike in usage doesn't mean anything. 1 somewhat easy to wear down counter gaining 2-3% more usage does not make Terrakion any less metagame defining, through that logic, Charizard X should be A+ because it loses to Landorus-T unless it runs a bulky Wisp set which is an entire stall-oriented set when Terrakion can simply use a Life Orb and HP Ice without sacrificing any viability in the first place to get around this so called counter, disregarding a Scarf.

Also you're really overestimating Landorus-T. I shut up when Keldeo was rising but this goes way too far. Landorus-T is not S rank. Defensive sets absolutely hate status and hazards and are easy to wear down or straight up counter. Scarf sets are very good, but every move on the set is easy to take advantage of, besides U-turn. Rock Polish sets aren't that good either, because they rely way too much on a weak and inaccurate Stone Edge to get past a lot of Pokemon that it doesn't even kill most of the time, and SD sets are for the most part outclassed by Pinsir. Double Dance is never getting 2 turns to set up against most well played and well built teams. It's a great mon, but it has too many flaws for S rank.

 

[Baharoth]

I guess when talking about the meta most people here refer to the high ladder and especially tournaments. A certain moderator here for example once said something like: "If you cant raise your elo beyond 1750 you have no clue what you are talking about and shouldnt post at all" and from what i could gather some/most? tour players consider the ladder to be filled with trash anyway so they probably refer mostly to tours.

 

[kabbes]

Even if it's trashy, it still needs playing against. I fear that the focus on sets common or created at 1800+ and tours means that the bread and butter sets common in lower ladder play get neglected.

Looking at the Smeargle geo-pass to Espeon set is an example. What newcomer is going to build around something so niche? But in the meantime, it looks as if Smogon is saying that Espeon has viability. You have to really dig into the thread to understand the truth.

The stated purpose of this thread is to help newcomers, but I do wonder if it's true purpose is actually just a fun but rather fruitless pissing match between high ranking players, as they discuss the latest high-level trends and put forward their pet responses to these trends.

 

[SSJ]

I would love for this to happen. I really have used this thing a lot and have managed to get to the mid 1800s with Infernape even post Aegislash meta. Using a spread of 168 Atk / 132 SpA / 208 Spe, I've found Infernape to be extremely beneficial to stall cores while still being good vs offensive teams. Using this spread, Infernape outspeeds Garchomp (which, besides Manectric pre mega evolution, is the fastest Pokemon you would need to outspeed anyways, as generally you would switch out anyways vs a Keldeo/Terrakion if Infernape is important to you) and I can do things such as CLEAN 2hko Slowbro after Stealth Rocks, beat out Mega Venusaur after Stealth Rock for a better chance, and the remaining stall Pokemon are unable to really beat Infernape. Sure, stall isn't a common meta, but one thing I find really nice is that Infernape still does well vs offense. Even the Lati@s still get chipped down pretty badly by CC, and most other Pokemon common on HO can't really take its coverage well. Mach Punch really lets Infernape do well in Offense too, as it allowing Infernape access to priority which can do things such as revenge kill Greninja, a huge threat on offensive teams, Bisharp after +2/+4, (Keldeo can't really do this reliably as it takes around 70% from even +2) Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados at around 60%, and Excadrill, doing a minimum of 67%. Even though Mega Heracross can potentially do the latter 3, I find Mixed Infernape to be useful on HO teams that can't utilize Mega Heracross. As Infernape beats out a lot of stall while still being good on offense while not taking up a mega slot.

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Adding more calcs right now.
132 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 196-231 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
132 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 156-187 (42.8 - 51.3%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
132 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 211-250 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
168 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 226-268 (79 - 93.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (After LO this percentage to OHKO greatly increases)
168 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 244-291 (67.5 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This was just bringing up the Mixed set, I haven't even mentioned any of its other sets, which also do well and shows Infernape's versatility. In particular the lead set, which does a good job of being a glue/suicide lead.

I haven't used this Ev spread before but from what you described, it seems pretty solid. I also would like to mention that infernape can catch a lot of people off guard especially when they switch to their physical wall and get hit with a LO boosted Fire blast or flamethrower. I really think a mixed set would work well for him and gives me all the more reason to use him since he can act like a great wall breaker.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

It strikes me that "the meta" is essentially made up of several metas, being at least "low ladder", "mid ladder" and "high ladder". Anti-meta in one part might play into the hands of another part.

So what is this thread seeking to achieve? When we say something is "good in the meta right now"' which part of the meta do we mean? If this thread is trying to give advice to newbies, shouldn't it focus on effectiveness in the low ladder, and leave it to them to figure things out for themselves once they have more experience? Is it really useful for a newcomer to know what works well right now in the 1800+ ladder?

It's really the discussion in the last few pages that has suddenly made me wonder this, and I think it's a principle that really deserves spelling out one way or the other.

One thing I also wanted to point is this: if there are 3 different metas, then why do teams from one meta have to change to adapt to the next one up? It's because while your team may have worked in the lower tier, as player skill goes up team building becomes more important. In other words, in lower tiers you can get away with a less optimized team if you can make up for it in skill. Thus, there's really no need to give advice for new players on how to adjust to the lower metas because if they're using teams that work on the 1800+ ladder, then they should be able to beat lower tier teams so long as they improve their skills.

Even if it's trashy, it still needs playing against. I fear that the focus on sets common or created at 1800+ and tours means that the bread and butter sets common in lower ladder play get neglected.

Looking at the Smeargle geo-pass to Espeon set is an example. What newcomer is going to build around something so niche? But in the meantime, it looks as if Smogon is saying that Espeon has viability. You have to really dig into the thread to understand the truth.

The stated purpose of this thread is to help newcomers, but I do wonder if it's true purpose is actually just a fun but rather fruitless pissing match between high ranking players, as they discuss the latest high-level trends and put forward their pet responses to these trends.

It's generally established that anything lower than B- is a niche mon that shouldn't be touched by newer players. It even says in their description that they require significant support and are often outclassed, which should be a clear flag that if I'm new to teambuilding, I should focus on using A and B ranked mons to make my life easier. So long as they actually read the OP and don't just skim through it, there shouldn't be an issue.