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Resource ORAS OU Simple Questions, Simple Answers (Read the OP First!)
- Thread starter ginganinja
- Start date
- Status
p2
Banned deucer.
Aegislash, Mawilite, Greninja and Salamencite got banned from OU and Mega Metagross just avoided a ban today
why were Mawilite and Greninja considered broken?
I wasn't that into the Mega Maw ban, but Greninja was deemed too strong once tutors dropped and it obtained Gunk Shot and Low Kick, which allowed iit to muscle past most of its previous counters/checks,.
p2
Banned deucer.
Greninja got Gunk Shot and Low Kick from ORAS tutors and just became stupidly good since it could just break through Sylveon / Azu / Clefable who could hard check it fairly well.
Mega Mawile was ridiculous but there's a post from the suspect thread that explained it fairly well, here
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
Greninja:
Mawilite:
Okay, so for the fist few weeks of ORAS I didn't think Greninja was actually broken. I felt that it was difficult to handle, yes, but manageable. It does have a handful of checks on offense, the playstyle it was notorious for being excellent against. Scarf Landorus-T, Mega Lopunny, Mega-Manectric, priority users such as Bisharp and Talonflame all of these can revenge kill it. These can't switch in reliably, obviously, but offensive teams don't really switch things in as much as loosely check. And Greninja not only gets worn down very, very easily, but also has a hard time coming against anything offensive, so if you're able to force it out a few times you can beat it. Basiclly, if you only consider its matchup against hyper offense I don't find it to be broken.
I started to believe Greninja was broken when I realized that it really wasn't that much of a specialized HO-killer anymore. Well, it is, it's still pretty hard for that playstyle to handle, but not much more than in XY. The most significant thing that changed for it when ORAS came around is that instead of just killing offense, it went on to kill balance too. Oh my lord does this thing destroy balanced teams. It can come in multiple times, and the only common things on this archetype that can switch in and force it out are Tentacruel, Scarf Keldeo, and sometimes Ferrothorn, all of which of which lose to coverage, none of which can switch in repeatedly due to lack of recovery. Basically, the only answers to Greninja that fit on balanced teams now have no recovery, and so get easily worn down. The only actual counters to Greninja that don't lose to coverage (Chansey, P2) are extremely passive and therefore don't really fit on balanced teams.
Even against Stall teams, Greninja puts in work. Against some stalls all you really need to do is weaken Chansey to 65% (really easy; when is Chansey ever at over 80%?) wear down Tentacruel (not too hard, it has no recovery) and there you go you can just rip through it. And if you really want to be mean to Stall you can run Gunk Shot Low Kick Dark Pulse ESens if you want. Greninja puts more pressure on Stall teams than anything this fast or goo against offense should ever be allowed to.
Furthermore, its combination of high speed and coverage means you really don't need to predict much. Literally you can just mindlessly click one move after the next and still do quite well, because Greninja is unlikely to find itself in a situation where it becomes a liability for its team. For instance, you can get Greninja to Low Kick your Lando-T, but Lando-T isn't exactly the hardest thing to switch into generally so that isn't too much of a problem Only situation I can really think of where you need to predict or get screwed over it getting tricked into hitting Bisharp with a resisted move, and even then Bisharp has to win a 50/50 from there with Pursuit. It's not like the opponent can mess around with Greninja much either, so if you've got Greninja in a position where it can get a kill (not hard), it will almost always get that kill. Greninja is a ridiculous momentum-machine all around, it picks up momentum very easily and rarely ever loses it.
As good as Greninja is on paper, it's even better in practice. I think a big reason for that is that some of the most popular Pokemon in the metagame already give it all it needs to cut through weakened teams. For example, Latios puts pressure on Chansey, wears down Ferrothorn, switches into Scarf Keldeo. Lando-T wears down Ferro too, checks Scarf Magneton, checks Lopunny, switches into Sand Rush Drill and opposing Lando-Ts, gives it pivot support and therefore a way to come in for free. And those are both really good, really easily slappable Pokemon you'll be finding on most offensive teams. Greninja has such great synergy with the rest of the metagame that it usually already comes with all the support it requires (which is very minimal support btw) automatically. This makes it very hard to justify not using on any offensive or even balanced team since, chances are, Greninja will already fit on that team fine.
As for 4MSS : This isn't really that true? Or rather, this isn't really a problem for Greninja. It basically has one set right which is basically the best set in terms of overall coverage and consists of Gunk Shot, Low Kick, Ice Beam, and Dark Pulse. This set alone hits the vast majority of the metagame, you do miss out on a handful of things but none of them are too common or hard to counter to the point where not being able to 2HKO them is that detrimental to Greninja's effectivess. It can easily run coverage to get past these extra things, but I don't think this is evidence of 4MSS as much as having the option to hit stuff if your team requires it. Most of the time you'll be sticking to the standard set, the fact that you have the option to hit all those things is just a plus. I really don't think Greninja wouldn't be suspect-worthy if it could only learn Gunk Shot, Low Kick, Ice Beam, and Dark Pulse, it already has enough coverage with these 4 moves alone to hugely threaten most teams.
I think Greninja is broken as a cleaner. Its combination of speed, power, and coverage enables it to run through teams far more easily than any other Pokemon in the metagame, with minimal support or much skill either. It is far too easy to get to a point in the match where Greninja is guaranteed to get a kill without needing to even predict. It is also far too easy to weaken the team to the point where Greninja just wins from there. There is little to no reason to not run Greninja on offense, there isn't a matchup where it will be useless and it can even get past most of its usual checks via coverage. It's too easy to put on teams, too easy to use, too hard to check, and too hard to consistently deal with throughout the corse of a match to be healthy for this metagame.
Ban Greninja
I started to believe Greninja was broken when I realized that it really wasn't that much of a specialized HO-killer anymore. Well, it is, it's still pretty hard for that playstyle to handle, but not much more than in XY. The most significant thing that changed for it when ORAS came around is that instead of just killing offense, it went on to kill balance too. Oh my lord does this thing destroy balanced teams. It can come in multiple times, and the only common things on this archetype that can switch in and force it out are Tentacruel, Scarf Keldeo, and sometimes Ferrothorn, all of which of which lose to coverage, none of which can switch in repeatedly due to lack of recovery. Basically, the only answers to Greninja that fit on balanced teams now have no recovery, and so get easily worn down. The only actual counters to Greninja that don't lose to coverage (Chansey, P2) are extremely passive and therefore don't really fit on balanced teams.
Even against Stall teams, Greninja puts in work. Against some stalls all you really need to do is weaken Chansey to 65% (really easy; when is Chansey ever at over 80%?) wear down Tentacruel (not too hard, it has no recovery) and there you go you can just rip through it. And if you really want to be mean to Stall you can run Gunk Shot Low Kick Dark Pulse ESens if you want. Greninja puts more pressure on Stall teams than anything this fast or goo against offense should ever be allowed to.
Furthermore, its combination of high speed and coverage means you really don't need to predict much. Literally you can just mindlessly click one move after the next and still do quite well, because Greninja is unlikely to find itself in a situation where it becomes a liability for its team. For instance, you can get Greninja to Low Kick your Lando-T, but Lando-T isn't exactly the hardest thing to switch into generally so that isn't too much of a problem Only situation I can really think of where you need to predict or get screwed over it getting tricked into hitting Bisharp with a resisted move, and even then Bisharp has to win a 50/50 from there with Pursuit. It's not like the opponent can mess around with Greninja much either, so if you've got Greninja in a position where it can get a kill (not hard), it will almost always get that kill. Greninja is a ridiculous momentum-machine all around, it picks up momentum very easily and rarely ever loses it.
As good as Greninja is on paper, it's even better in practice. I think a big reason for that is that some of the most popular Pokemon in the metagame already give it all it needs to cut through weakened teams. For example, Latios puts pressure on Chansey, wears down Ferrothorn, switches into Scarf Keldeo. Lando-T wears down Ferro too, checks Scarf Magneton, checks Lopunny, switches into Sand Rush Drill and opposing Lando-Ts, gives it pivot support and therefore a way to come in for free. And those are both really good, really easily slappable Pokemon you'll be finding on most offensive teams. Greninja has such great synergy with the rest of the metagame that it usually already comes with all the support it requires (which is very minimal support btw) automatically. This makes it very hard to justify not using on any offensive or even balanced team since, chances are, Greninja will already fit on that team fine.
As for 4MSS : This isn't really that true? Or rather, this isn't really a problem for Greninja. It basically has one set right which is basically the best set in terms of overall coverage and consists of Gunk Shot, Low Kick, Ice Beam, and Dark Pulse. This set alone hits the vast majority of the metagame, you do miss out on a handful of things but none of them are too common or hard to counter to the point where not being able to 2HKO them is that detrimental to Greninja's effectivess. It can easily run coverage to get past these extra things, but I don't think this is evidence of 4MSS as much as having the option to hit stuff if your team requires it. Most of the time you'll be sticking to the standard set, the fact that you have the option to hit all those things is just a plus. I really don't think Greninja wouldn't be suspect-worthy if it could only learn Gunk Shot, Low Kick, Ice Beam, and Dark Pulse, it already has enough coverage with these 4 moves alone to hugely threaten most teams.
I think Greninja is broken as a cleaner. Its combination of speed, power, and coverage enables it to run through teams far more easily than any other Pokemon in the metagame, with minimal support or much skill either. It is far too easy to get to a point in the match where Greninja is guaranteed to get a kill without needing to even predict. It is also far too easy to weaken the team to the point where Greninja just wins from there. There is little to no reason to not run Greninja on offense, there isn't a matchup where it will be useless and it can even get past most of its usual checks via coverage. It's too easy to put on teams, too easy to use, too hard to check, and too hard to consistently deal with throughout the corse of a match to be healthy for this metagame.
Ban Greninja
It's funny that you have to resort to completely opposite ends of the archetype spectrum to remotely handle Greninja now a days. How exactly is using full on Stall and Hyper Offense as the viable forms of playstyles even healthy? Hell, in Hyper Offenses case you better hope that your frail as hell mon doesn't fall under its speed tier, which isn't exactly difficult judging from all these poor examples of resorting to only fast as hell megas like M-Sceptile, M-Lopunny, and M-Alakazam as your supposed answer. I can't really stand reading these sort of "arguments" when it's based on terrible theorymon with a more than likely irrelevant calc that was pulled out of thin air that doesn't even portray any sort of practical scenario. I go off of what I see in practice and in practice Greninja is just a problem that simply just adapts to the tier however it sees fit at this point and is no way promoting any sort of real balance in the tier.
The way Greninja just invalidates any sort of Balance or Bulky Offense with its new move-pool additions of Gunk Shot and and Low Kick in a majority of cases is sort of ridiculous and these are the two play-styles at the end of XY that made the tier at least enjoyable and subjectively balanced for the most part. This is on top of the fact that Greninja is surrounded by partners that take advantage of these unhealthy traits that Greninja provides. It's pretty much at this point the easy button in the tier because by virtue of what it does decreases the viability of so many cores and builds with ease and efficieny, and then the 5 other teammates backed up behind it that takes advantage of its versatility and the sub optimal plays or sacks you would have to resort to the moment Greninja comes up against your Balanced or Bulky Offense build, even in some cases of Hyper Offense. Scouting for its set isn't even a legitimate point that it's somehow healthy when you can basically prepare for one popular set in the meta and get beat by a set that handles the checks and counters that would normally be able to handle a certain set. So now from team preview you're relying on some favorable matchup that is based on luck more so than skill or competition in the fact it's not running the set that screws your team over. It's sad when people have to resort to wasting its Life Orb recoil for 10-11 turns and calling that a legitimate strategy of sorts and more than likely is just a team pivoting in and out of its attacks making themselves even more liable to whatever is in the back to clean upthe mess Greninja provided.
I also find it pathetic that stuff that was all hyped up talk at first like Low Kick has found its way in viable sets simply cause Greninja has the ability to just adapt to however the tier is going. Oh your switch in is Tentacruel? No problem let's bring back Extrasensory. Alomomola. Lol, no problemo let's hit them with the XY throwback of Grass Knot. Chansey? That's cute, let's throw them for a real ride and go physically offensive. Yes, as sad as it sounds physical moves have proven to have some more viable usage because it's made it easier for Greninja to just pick and choose what the team needs handled more reliable either through cleaning or lure purposes. I'm not gonna act like it's impossible to beat Greninja but when you've established yourself as the key player in reducing or making the effectiveness of so many cores obsolete it's pretty much time to go.
If I don't end up smashing my keyboard from Focus Blast misses, using Protect on Gyro Ball Ferro when M-Gyarados uses Dragon Dance, and fooling myself in thinking that the cancel button actually works before I get reqs, I'll be voting Ban if it wasn't clear by the previous paragraphs.
The way Greninja just invalidates any sort of Balance or Bulky Offense with its new move-pool additions of Gunk Shot and and Low Kick in a majority of cases is sort of ridiculous and these are the two play-styles at the end of XY that made the tier at least enjoyable and subjectively balanced for the most part. This is on top of the fact that Greninja is surrounded by partners that take advantage of these unhealthy traits that Greninja provides. It's pretty much at this point the easy button in the tier because by virtue of what it does decreases the viability of so many cores and builds with ease and efficieny, and then the 5 other teammates backed up behind it that takes advantage of its versatility and the sub optimal plays or sacks you would have to resort to the moment Greninja comes up against your Balanced or Bulky Offense build, even in some cases of Hyper Offense. Scouting for its set isn't even a legitimate point that it's somehow healthy when you can basically prepare for one popular set in the meta and get beat by a set that handles the checks and counters that would normally be able to handle a certain set. So now from team preview you're relying on some favorable matchup that is based on luck more so than skill or competition in the fact it's not running the set that screws your team over. It's sad when people have to resort to wasting its Life Orb recoil for 10-11 turns and calling that a legitimate strategy of sorts and more than likely is just a team pivoting in and out of its attacks making themselves even more liable to whatever is in the back to clean upthe mess Greninja provided.
I also find it pathetic that stuff that was all hyped up talk at first like Low Kick has found its way in viable sets simply cause Greninja has the ability to just adapt to however the tier is going. Oh your switch in is Tentacruel? No problem let's bring back Extrasensory. Alomomola. Lol, no problemo let's hit them with the XY throwback of Grass Knot. Chansey? That's cute, let's throw them for a real ride and go physically offensive. Yes, as sad as it sounds physical moves have proven to have some more viable usage because it's made it easier for Greninja to just pick and choose what the team needs handled more reliable either through cleaning or lure purposes. I'm not gonna act like it's impossible to beat Greninja but when you've established yourself as the key player in reducing or making the effectiveness of so many cores obsolete it's pretty much time to go.
If I don't end up smashing my keyboard from Focus Blast misses, using Protect on Gyro Ball Ferro when M-Gyarados uses Dragon Dance, and fooling myself in thinking that the cancel button actually works before I get reqs, I'll be voting Ban if it wasn't clear by the previous paragraphs.
Mawilite:
(Note: I'm mainly focusing on the SD/Fire Fang/Play Rough/Sucker Punch set, considering this is its considered its best set and that I could already write an essay about how retarded this sole set is. Also, I'm usually assuming a +2 Mawile, considering the counter has to switch in and Mawile can use an astounding array of physical attackers as setup bait)
O-kay, I've been waiting for this for some time and imo this thing simply has to go. This thing has been steamrolling me every single time I faced it, unless my opponent didn't bother to set up fsr. I'm not a very good player, so I thought the more expert players had found more reliable ways to play around this thing, but when I asked in the SQSA thread if somebody knew even a decently reliable counter, the best answer I got was Counter Skarmory of all things >.>
Imo, the combination of retarded power, Intimidate, and strong priority break this thing.
I know raw power is usually a bad argument to ban something, but I think this is an exceptional case. To illustrate my point, I would like to provide two calcs from a situation that happened to me quite some time ago:
-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 204-242 (75 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (standard spread has about this much HP EVs iirc)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 498-586 (137.5 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Effectively, this means Mawile can use the third strongest Earthquake in OU as setup bait (after Diggersby's and Landorus-T's) in a pinch and proceed to clean up. (I know this example is generally not advisable, but it works perfectly fine if the opponent's priority users and Sucker Punch resists have been removed). I'd like to stress that we're talking about a 100BP super effective STAB move here coming off 135 base Attack - but if Excadrill KOes an opponent or spins the previous turn, there's literally nothing to stop Mawile from switching in, Intimidating, and proceeding to wreak havoc. Its pre-Mega ability, Intimidate, allows it to set up on virtually any physical attacker after coming in on a free turn.
I also would like to point out some parallels with a blatantly broken threat that has already been banned a long time ago.
reasons for banning Khan: taken from announcement (close)
1) The raw power of its attacks is too much for the OU tier
<...>
With a virtual base Attack of 213, factoring in Parental Bond, the only Pokémon that can afford to switch into this monster with relative ease are: Cofagrigus, Sableye and a very healthy Gourgeist. Everything else is immediately obliterated by Mega Kanga's attacks. Other gimmick strategies to stop it are Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin (or Iron Barbs) users like bulky Garchomp and Ferrothorn, that use Mega Kanga's ability to hit twice against it;
2) Mega-Kangaskhan is nearly impossible to revenge kill
Sucker Punch at +2 kills pretty much every wanna-be revenge killer. Pokémon like the Lati twins, the genies, Focus Sash Alakazam and even Genesect (with the X/Y Steel nerf) are all OHKO'd before they can even scratch Mega Kanga. Furthermore, Mega Kanga's 105/100/100 defences are nothing to laugh at, and even when uninvested, they give Mega Kanga excellent survivability. Basically, Mega Kangaskhan's offensive checks are restricted to strong and fast Fighting types such as Terrakion and Mega Lucario;
3) Mega-Kangaskhan limits team building
Like the 5th Generation Excadrill, Mega-Kanga severely limits team bulding, forcing the player to run dedicated, obscure Pokémon (with the exception of Sableye) to avoid getting swept by it. And, in the case of Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin users, the player is usually just trading their check in order to have Mega-Kangaskhan kill itself through passive damage.
Of course, Khan is more broken than Mawile and comparing these points one on one is guaranteed to bring some logical flaws, but especially the first two points are pretty telling, considering Mawile is simply stronger than Kangaskhan:
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 373-441 (94.6 - 111.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 360-424 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 672-792 (222.5 - 262.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 792-932 (262.2 - 308.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The unnuanced (the nuance is coming, dw) point I'm making is: if Mega Khan's sheer power against physical walls and revenge killers was reason enough to ban it, there is no reason to keep Mega Mawile - arguing against this would simply be arguing against mathematics. Fortunately, unlike Mega Khan, Mawile doesn't hit twice and is outsped by some walls. Also, Mawile is slightly less bulky than Khan, although this is mitigated by a much better defensive typing and Intimidate. Finally, Mawile is much more reliant on Sucker Punch, although this isn't that bad if a +2 Sucker Punch OHKOes basically anything that doesn't resist it :)
Being a subpar player, I don't want to make any too firm statements regarding the third point, because I'm sure expert players have come up with better ways to cover Mawile than I have. I would, however, like to address some Mawile counters I've heard mentioned.
-Skarmory: If SR is up, Skarmory is OHKOed by +2 Fire Fang. If SR is not up, Skarmory can either phaze Mawile - which doesn't solve anything, Mawile can simply come back later, the only difference being it has no Intimidate to turn basically every physical attacker into setup bait - or Skarmory can survive with Sturdy and Counter Mawile's Fire Fang. While this does defeat Mawile, this would qualify as ' trade one's check in order to have Mega Mawile kill itself' (see point 3 Khan) and it draws uncanny parallels to Haze Unaware Quagsire, in that one is running a completely counterproductive move on a mon that is already starved for moveslots. (Counter works in order to retaliate less powerful physical attacks and then Roost off the damage - when using it to force your own physical wall into a one for one trade, I consider this counterproductive :) )
-Heatran: the standard specially defensive set with Toxic is highly shaky. +2 Sucker Punch does ~80% of damage, whereas Lava Plume has only a small chance to OHKO in return after SR (without SR, an OHKO is impossible). Any offensive set is cleanly OHKOed by Sucker Punch after SR (97% minimum damage). Heatran only reliably beats it if it runs Will-O-Wisp, while it would prefer to run Toxic in order to be more effective on stall and for crippling walls and because it already has Lava Plume in order to spread clutch burns.
-Rotom-W: I've heard this thing is a counter to Mawile, considering it can reliably burn it. While this is true, that's frankly all it can do. If Mawile sets up on the switch, even a burned Play Rough hits physically defensive Rotoms for ~70% damage, bringing it in Sucker Punch's KO range. Therefore, after burning it, Rotom has to switch out and leave the rest of its team to deal with a Mawile that's still just as strong as before setting up; effectively, burning only resets the Swords Dance. Mawile has been crippled in the sense that it can't really switch out anymore, but it still hits like an angry killer bull on steroids. Rotom is as much of a counter to Mawile as Sableye was to Mega Khan; it can burn it, but that's basically it. Iirc, in Khan's case this wasn't considered to be enough.
Afaik, Swords Dance Mega Mawile's reliable counters are limited to a few defensive Fire-types, most notably Arcanine, Heatran, and Bulk Up Talonflame, which is already quite sad to begin with, considering how much defensive Fire-types usually suck. Of these, only Arcanine reliably counters the SubPunch set as well. Heatran is smashed by Focus Punch, and Talonflame can't break the subs and is 2HKOed by Focus Punch.
(Oh yeah: Mawile is a sweeper/cleaner, it's not really prone to being worn down during the match. At least, not as prone as the walls/statusers that are supposed to check it :) )
Personally, I can see no way in which Mawile could be healthy for the OU tier. It has truly obscene power, complemented by strong priority, and can set up on almost every physical attacker in the tier if need be, barring a few really powerful supereffective ones. Don't get me wrong, I know I'm not the best player and I'm always open to better players telling me new ways to counter this thing. However, if the best they can come up with is Counter Skarmory, then that worries me.
O-kay, I've been waiting for this for some time and imo this thing simply has to go. This thing has been steamrolling me every single time I faced it, unless my opponent didn't bother to set up fsr. I'm not a very good player, so I thought the more expert players had found more reliable ways to play around this thing, but when I asked in the SQSA thread if somebody knew even a decently reliable counter, the best answer I got was Counter Skarmory of all things >.>
Imo, the combination of retarded power, Intimidate, and strong priority break this thing.
I know raw power is usually a bad argument to ban something, but I think this is an exceptional case. To illustrate my point, I would like to provide two calcs from a situation that happened to me quite some time ago:
-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 204-242 (75 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (standard spread has about this much HP EVs iirc)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 498-586 (137.5 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Effectively, this means Mawile can use the third strongest Earthquake in OU as setup bait (after Diggersby's and Landorus-T's) in a pinch and proceed to clean up. (I know this example is generally not advisable, but it works perfectly fine if the opponent's priority users and Sucker Punch resists have been removed). I'd like to stress that we're talking about a 100BP super effective STAB move here coming off 135 base Attack - but if Excadrill KOes an opponent or spins the previous turn, there's literally nothing to stop Mawile from switching in, Intimidating, and proceeding to wreak havoc. Its pre-Mega ability, Intimidate, allows it to set up on virtually any physical attacker after coming in on a free turn.
I also would like to point out some parallels with a blatantly broken threat that has already been banned a long time ago.
reasons for banning Khan: taken from announcement (close)
1) The raw power of its attacks is too much for the OU tier
<...>
With a virtual base Attack of 213, factoring in Parental Bond, the only Pokémon that can afford to switch into this monster with relative ease are: Cofagrigus, Sableye and a very healthy Gourgeist. Everything else is immediately obliterated by Mega Kanga's attacks. Other gimmick strategies to stop it are Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin (or Iron Barbs) users like bulky Garchomp and Ferrothorn, that use Mega Kanga's ability to hit twice against it;
2) Mega-Kangaskhan is nearly impossible to revenge kill
Sucker Punch at +2 kills pretty much every wanna-be revenge killer. Pokémon like the Lati twins, the genies, Focus Sash Alakazam and even Genesect (with the X/Y Steel nerf) are all OHKO'd before they can even scratch Mega Kanga. Furthermore, Mega Kanga's 105/100/100 defences are nothing to laugh at, and even when uninvested, they give Mega Kanga excellent survivability. Basically, Mega Kangaskhan's offensive checks are restricted to strong and fast Fighting types such as Terrakion and Mega Lucario;
3) Mega-Kangaskhan limits team building
Like the 5th Generation Excadrill, Mega-Kanga severely limits team bulding, forcing the player to run dedicated, obscure Pokémon (with the exception of Sableye) to avoid getting swept by it. And, in the case of Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin users, the player is usually just trading their check in order to have Mega-Kangaskhan kill itself through passive damage.
Of course, Khan is more broken than Mawile and comparing these points one on one is guaranteed to bring some logical flaws, but especially the first two points are pretty telling, considering Mawile is simply stronger than Kangaskhan:
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 373-441 (94.6 - 111.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 360-424 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 672-792 (222.5 - 262.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 792-932 (262.2 - 308.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The unnuanced (the nuance is coming, dw) point I'm making is: if Mega Khan's sheer power against physical walls and revenge killers was reason enough to ban it, there is no reason to keep Mega Mawile - arguing against this would simply be arguing against mathematics. Fortunately, unlike Mega Khan, Mawile doesn't hit twice and is outsped by some walls. Also, Mawile is slightly less bulky than Khan, although this is mitigated by a much better defensive typing and Intimidate. Finally, Mawile is much more reliant on Sucker Punch, although this isn't that bad if a +2 Sucker Punch OHKOes basically anything that doesn't resist it :)
Being a subpar player, I don't want to make any too firm statements regarding the third point, because I'm sure expert players have come up with better ways to cover Mawile than I have. I would, however, like to address some Mawile counters I've heard mentioned.
-Skarmory: If SR is up, Skarmory is OHKOed by +2 Fire Fang. If SR is not up, Skarmory can either phaze Mawile - which doesn't solve anything, Mawile can simply come back later, the only difference being it has no Intimidate to turn basically every physical attacker into setup bait - or Skarmory can survive with Sturdy and Counter Mawile's Fire Fang. While this does defeat Mawile, this would qualify as ' trade one's check in order to have Mega Mawile kill itself' (see point 3 Khan) and it draws uncanny parallels to Haze Unaware Quagsire, in that one is running a completely counterproductive move on a mon that is already starved for moveslots. (Counter works in order to retaliate less powerful physical attacks and then Roost off the damage - when using it to force your own physical wall into a one for one trade, I consider this counterproductive :) )
-Heatran: the standard specially defensive set with Toxic is highly shaky. +2 Sucker Punch does ~80% of damage, whereas Lava Plume has only a small chance to OHKO in return after SR (without SR, an OHKO is impossible). Any offensive set is cleanly OHKOed by Sucker Punch after SR (97% minimum damage). Heatran only reliably beats it if it runs Will-O-Wisp, while it would prefer to run Toxic in order to be more effective on stall and for crippling walls and because it already has Lava Plume in order to spread clutch burns.
-Rotom-W: I've heard this thing is a counter to Mawile, considering it can reliably burn it. While this is true, that's frankly all it can do. If Mawile sets up on the switch, even a burned Play Rough hits physically defensive Rotoms for ~70% damage, bringing it in Sucker Punch's KO range. Therefore, after burning it, Rotom has to switch out and leave the rest of its team to deal with a Mawile that's still just as strong as before setting up; effectively, burning only resets the Swords Dance. Mawile has been crippled in the sense that it can't really switch out anymore, but it still hits like an angry killer bull on steroids. Rotom is as much of a counter to Mawile as Sableye was to Mega Khan; it can burn it, but that's basically it. Iirc, in Khan's case this wasn't considered to be enough.
Afaik, Swords Dance Mega Mawile's reliable counters are limited to a few defensive Fire-types, most notably Arcanine, Heatran, and Bulk Up Talonflame, which is already quite sad to begin with, considering how much defensive Fire-types usually suck. Of these, only Arcanine reliably counters the SubPunch set as well. Heatran is smashed by Focus Punch, and Talonflame can't break the subs and is 2HKOed by Focus Punch.
(Oh yeah: Mawile is a sweeper/cleaner, it's not really prone to being worn down during the match. At least, not as prone as the walls/statusers that are supposed to check it :) )
Personally, I can see no way in which Mawile could be healthy for the OU tier. It has truly obscene power, complemented by strong priority, and can set up on almost every physical attacker in the tier if need be, barring a few really powerful supereffective ones. Don't get me wrong, I know I'm not the best player and I'm always open to better players telling me new ways to counter this thing. However, if the best they can come up with is Counter Skarmory, then that worries me.
i used to have no issues with mega mawile in the metagame, but recently i've come to realize just how ridiculous this thing is. this pokemon is the literal definition of broken, and is heavily detrimental to a balanced ou tier.
how does stall beat mega mawile? you can use charizard x and ~check~ it. somehow venusaur is supposed to handle it but lol it gets raped by sd mawile? you can use wisptran + hp fire amoonguss/venu and pivot into amoonguss/venu in order to figure out its set. you can use taunt willo victini (personally my preferred stall build in this meta is monte cristo's with mola > quag as it's so much less raped by matchup). you can use defensive charizard y, which does stuff outside of mawile, but ultimately wouldn't really be used if mawile didn't exist and speaks to how crazy it is to deal with mawile. or, you can go the complete shit route and use some crap like arcanine or moltres. i'm NOT saying it's impossible to deal with mawile, but if you actually want to beat it somewhat reliably, then these are basically your only options. you see how limited the options really are to deal with mega mawile, where you generally have to run inferior sets and even pokemon just to deal with it.
how does bulky offense/offense beat mega mawile? defensive landorus-t and balloon wisp tran are good checks...end list. offense basically makes sacs every single time mega mawile comes in. there are some 50/50s involved but ultimately it comes down to risk/reward plays where you can't bring in keldeo because oh, bisharp will rape your ass if you do, and mawile keeps netting kills. you're also forced into a lot of plays because, oh, mega mawile can sucker punch kill your lando, switch right? oh wait, if it sets up an sd it sweeps your ass, better stay in and die to a sucker punch so it can't sd. other pokemon create similar situations, but with a base 259 attack stat and sucker punch as powerful as blackglasses bisharp, mega mawile forces many more of them. what i'm trying to explain is that unlike a lot of other pokemon, mega mawile has the bulk, the typing, the power, and the priority that prevent offensive teams from handling it reasonably. there are plenty of things that can get kills every time vs offense, but all of these pokemon can be revenge killed pretty easily, which mega mawile can't be. it should be noted that offensive teams also suffer from a lot of 50/50 bs, which often results in enormous shitfests particularly towards the end-game.
mega mawile has it all. it has arguably the best defensive typing in the game, the best attack stat, a spammable stab, wicked strong priority, good matchups vs all teamstyles, the ability to sweep given but one free turn, and to lure and kill its counters while sacrificing almost no overall effectiveness. it obliterates defensive teams while simultaneously bringing offensive teams down to their knees. i could see people debating aegislash's impact on the tier and whatever, but mega mawile is flat-out broken and therefore needs to be banned.
how does stall beat mega mawile? you can use charizard x and ~check~ it. somehow venusaur is supposed to handle it but lol it gets raped by sd mawile? you can use wisptran + hp fire amoonguss/venu and pivot into amoonguss/venu in order to figure out its set. you can use taunt willo victini (personally my preferred stall build in this meta is monte cristo's with mola > quag as it's so much less raped by matchup). you can use defensive charizard y, which does stuff outside of mawile, but ultimately wouldn't really be used if mawile didn't exist and speaks to how crazy it is to deal with mawile. or, you can go the complete shit route and use some crap like arcanine or moltres. i'm NOT saying it's impossible to deal with mawile, but if you actually want to beat it somewhat reliably, then these are basically your only options. you see how limited the options really are to deal with mega mawile, where you generally have to run inferior sets and even pokemon just to deal with it.
how does bulky offense/offense beat mega mawile? defensive landorus-t and balloon wisp tran are good checks...end list. offense basically makes sacs every single time mega mawile comes in. there are some 50/50s involved but ultimately it comes down to risk/reward plays where you can't bring in keldeo because oh, bisharp will rape your ass if you do, and mawile keeps netting kills. you're also forced into a lot of plays because, oh, mega mawile can sucker punch kill your lando, switch right? oh wait, if it sets up an sd it sweeps your ass, better stay in and die to a sucker punch so it can't sd. other pokemon create similar situations, but with a base 259 attack stat and sucker punch as powerful as blackglasses bisharp, mega mawile forces many more of them. what i'm trying to explain is that unlike a lot of other pokemon, mega mawile has the bulk, the typing, the power, and the priority that prevent offensive teams from handling it reasonably. there are plenty of things that can get kills every time vs offense, but all of these pokemon can be revenge killed pretty easily, which mega mawile can't be. it should be noted that offensive teams also suffer from a lot of 50/50 bs, which often results in enormous shitfests particularly towards the end-game.
mega mawile has it all. it has arguably the best defensive typing in the game, the best attack stat, a spammable stab, wicked strong priority, good matchups vs all teamstyles, the ability to sweep given but one free turn, and to lure and kill its counters while sacrificing almost no overall effectiveness. it obliterates defensive teams while simultaneously bringing offensive teams down to their knees. i could see people debating aegislash's impact on the tier and whatever, but mega mawile is flat-out broken and therefore needs to be banned.
What's the reason Infernape is C rank in the viability rankings? At a glance it doesn't seem to be on the level of the other C-rank mons.
Can someone provide me with an idea of how common pursuit is on Bisharp and how to play around it, because as of late, I've been getting pursit trapped quite a bit. Is lum berry/SD as popular as it once was, or has pursuit replaced SD?
Most Bisharp run pursuit, and the way to play around it depends on the Pokemon, on Celebi you got Baton Pass, on Latios you got HP Fighting, and on Latias you have Healing Wish
Also, some people using Starmie have used Reflect Type so that Pursuit/Knock Off don't hit it super effectively.
How many votes would've had to be changed from Do Not Ban to Ban in order to give Megagross the boot?
I believe it would have taken another 21 ban votes to reach the required super-majority.
Either 21 new proban voters or 9 dnb voters changing their vote would've done it.
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giovanidude The Pizza Man
It is not exactly true most Bisharps run Pursuit. According to the usage stats only 20 to 25% of the Bisharps run Pursuit (In the past few months Pursuit on Bisharp actually decreased a bit, but it never goes below 20% or above 30%) Swords Dance is by far the most common and is arguably the best set in the metagame, with Swords Dance usage sitting at 65-70%
Playing around Pursuit with a frail psychic or ghost type (take Gengar and Latias) is not very easy and that is the reason why it is effective. Bisharp's weaknesses and slow speed means you are forced into a 50/50 with Sucker Punch and Pursuit, Gengar can kill Bisharp with Focus Blast, predicting the Pursuit, or can play safer and go for will o wisp or substitute. Reflect Type works on defensive starmie and Lure Whirlpool Latias and Baton Pass avoids Pursuit, so a fast BP (Celebi) can avoid Pursuit too, obviously this doesn't work against Scarfed Tyranitar, but if you stay in, Tyranitar only has a 40 BP Pursuit which is much easier to survive.
It is not exactly true most Bisharps run Pursuit. According to the usage stats only 20 to 25% of the Bisharps run Pursuit (In the past few months Pursuit on Bisharp actually decreased a bit, but it never goes below 20% or above 30%) Swords Dance is by far the most common and is arguably the best set in the metagame, with Swords Dance usage sitting at 65-70%
Playing around Pursuit with a frail psychic or ghost type (take Gengar and Latias) is not very easy and that is the reason why it is effective. Bisharp's weaknesses and slow speed means you are forced into a 50/50 with Sucker Punch and Pursuit, Gengar can kill Bisharp with Focus Blast, predicting the Pursuit, or can play safer and go for will o wisp or substitute. Reflect Type works on defensive starmie and Lure Whirlpool Latias and Baton Pass avoids Pursuit, so a fast BP (Celebi) can avoid Pursuit too, obviously this doesn't work against Scarfed Tyranitar, but if you stay in, Tyranitar only has a 40 BP Pursuit which is much easier to survive.
thanks man :] clears that up for me. I guess I've been running in to that minority as of late lol.
What's Lure Whirpool Latias? Sounds intriguing
Is agility or double dance usable on diggersby?
Usable is a very broad term. Yes, it's usable, but it's generally outclassed by the other sets that use other methods to mitigate diggersbys speed (quick Attack from the sd set and scarf) but it's worth giving a shot I guess.
Some really, really good players don't ladder that much and stick to tournament play or scheduled play with a smaller number of experienced battlers. If someone were to submit an application, they probably meet these criteria as well as being active on IRC or in RMT/Mentoring. I think the special application was designed for those cases, but I'm not completely sure. TBH I'm not sure if I know of anyone who's used a special application in lieu of reqs.
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