XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

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why would you switch in to it? just catch it off guard on the next switch in and use your head
How would you catch it off guard? Yell "over there!" and trick it into looking the other way as you sneak in? If you can't switch into Megaluke, you can't counter it. Chances are you can't check it either, 'cause dat priority.

And no, revenge killing is NOT to be taken into account for reasons that have already been told to you several times. Revenge killing can be applied to every offensive pokemon in the game and so cannot be used for any single one. Kyogre and Arceus can be revenge killed too. And Megaluke is harder to revenge kill than most, as it has strong priority attacks and high speed.

As for those walls: That's true... for physical sets. And if they don't happen to have Ice Punch. Which leads me to another problem: Megaluke has the movepool to get around every single one of it's counters in some way. It can't get em all at once, but until you know what it's fourth move is you can't risk sending in your Lando (assuming, once again, that it's the physical set- special Megalukes laugh at Lando or Gliscor).
 

THE_IRON_...KENYAN?

Banned deucer.
People keep bringing up stats and stuff as to why things should be kept around, or banned, but I think that these pokemon are unfit fo rthe tier because they take away from the integrity of the game of pokemon. Power is valued over creativity, and I think the moral aspect is something that should be looked into
Id appreciate some more comments on this post
 
I haven't had many issues personally regarding Mega Lucario, but I still support a ban against this thing. Nothing should have access to that much raw power and speed without glaring issues in other areas. Lucario has the movepool to get by whatever it wants, and the sheer brute force to back it up. There's like actual reasons not to use this thing lol.

Genesect should go. U-Turn + the movepool to force out almost everything is ridiculous. You can only really beat it with AV Conk or Heatran, but then it can U-Turn into a counter. The guaranteed way to beat Genesect is to completely outplay the other player, there aren't any guaranteed ways of beating this thing since everything that can switch into it without getting nailed is easily forced out right after. This is just looking at Choiced sets too, EBelt, RP, and SG Gene are all extremely dangerous as well.

I'll talk about Deo-S when I actually face one, lmao.

orrrr have something bulky? i think someone on here's already said that a bulky conkeldurr can easily take an extremespeed and KO back with mach punch. and what about landorus T, gliscor etc? they can live its STAB hits and KO back with earthquake. Landorus especially, as it gets intimidate on any physical set
Those things can't take Flash Cannons, though.
 
Gentlemen please, we are overrating Lucario
Omarcito please, back up your argument. Yes it's frail, but it OHKO's most of the tier and can get a boost without excessive hassle- and can get that same boost many times due to it's good resistances, ability to force switches, and resistance/immunity to most entry hazards. But we really ought to be talking Deoxys and Genesect a touch more, I don't deny that.
 
People keep bringing up stats and stuff as to why things should be kept around, or banned, but I think that these pokemon are unfit fo rthe tier because they take away from the integrity of the game of pokemon. Power is valued over creativity, and I think the moral aspect is something that should be looked into
That argument is quite good the only problem is for that complex bans have to be made , and the council refuses to do so or even consider that they are needed
I belive tha to keep the metagame in good health this is a step that has to bee taken , unfortunately i am not seeing it happen due to the council lack courage to do it
 

THE_IRON_...KENYAN?

Banned deucer.
What is the "moral aspect" of a pokemon anyway?
just how we as a community approach the way we play pokemon and the philosophy behind it, rather than the pokemon we play with. The philosophy is primary, and if you can fix that you can fix whatever problems you have in the tier, suspect round, or game in general.

I think we need to take this conversation back to the beginning
 
orrrr have something bulky? i think someone on here's already said that a bulky conkeldurr can easily take an extremespeed and KO back with mach punch. and what about landorus T, gliscor etc? they can live its STAB hits and KO back with earthquake. Landorus especially, as it gets intimidate on any physical set
Jolly Luc-M can two shot Gliscor without a boost with Flash Cannon, I don't need to even see what a timid on would do.

0- SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 176-208 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 222-262 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(222, 224, 226, 230, 232, 234, 238, 240, 242, 246, 248, 250, 254, 256, 258, 262) No boost here either. Not to mention its only recover is leftovers. (Note Timid Luc)
 
3. Just because a Pokemon is Legendary doesn't mean it needs to be banned ASAP (lookin' at you, Articuno). And this is about possibly banning Deoxys-S, not its other forms.
4. Mega Evolution itself will never be banned. Hell, several Pokemon are only viable WITH their Mega forms (Pinsir being the best example of this). Crying about all Megas getting banned is pointless.
I agree with Points one and two, but it feels like this site is one a mega banning crusade (then again I was linked to this thread by GameFAQs and I'm not sure exactly how pervasive the "Stop Having Fun Guy" stereotype is there.)

Gentlemen please, we are overrating Lucario
I kinda agree, Lucario use might be attributed to its popularity, like Charizard. People use it because its popular, granted it didn't have a stealth rock weakness...

Hey you know what is over-centralizing? Stealth Rock, in Gen IV people wouldn't touch Flying and fire types with a 50-foot pole because of that. I'm not sure what it hasn't been banned then (Apart from Rapid Spin)
 
just how we as a community approach the way we play pokemon and the philosophy behind it, rather than the pokemon we play with. The philosophy is primary, and if you can fix that you can fix whatever problems you have in the tier, suspect round, or game in general.

I think we need to take this conversation back to the beginning
We're not talking about that, we're trying to make a metagame that's fair and balanced. We all play Pokemon to have fun and play in different ways. But we want to keep the game from becoming toward one pokemon. That's why we have tiers. If we didn't like pokemon we wouldn't be playing.
 
Gentlemen please, we are overrating Lucario
I actually think you're right, but would you care to accompany that statement with some discussion?
just how we as a community approach the way we play pokemon and the philosophy behind it, rather than the pokemon we play with. The philosophy is primary, and if you can fix that you can fix whatever problems you have in the tier, suspect round, or game in general.

I think we need to take this conversation back to the beginning
I think specifically Lucario is bad for the "moral aspect" of the game for several reasons. Mostly, it doesn't require an especially skillful player to use Lucario. Any player can slap it on a team and expect it to get at least 1 kill a fight. Pokemon like Lucario and Charizard X (I'm not saying X is broken, but its comparable to Lucario in many ways except for the priority) just lack enough sure counters, and therefore don't require a smart team around them to cover their weaknesses because they just don't have that many. I'll put in a little bias, but my favorite pokemon are the ones that can completely wreck teams, when they have the right support. Typically those are the teams that win, and having options like Lucario make people less likely to think through to the more imaginative options.

*note, I don't think the "moral aspect" is enough grounds to ban something though :(
 

THE_IRON_...KENYAN?

Banned deucer.
We're not talking about that, we're trying to make a metagame that's fair and balanced. We all play Pokemon to have fun and play in different ways. But we want to keep the game from becoming toward one pokemon. That's why we have tiers. If we didn't like pokemon we wouldn't be playing.
Yes, but the tiers THEMSELVES and the "optimal movesets" and "optimal pokemon" we use in said tiers are derived primarily from the philosophy we use on how to conduct the website and the tiers on the website. The stats and calculations are just a subset of said philosophy.

People play pokemon in different ways, but I think we must look at the way we play pokemon before we decide how it is and what is borken or not broken.
 
This is going to me my last post about lucario because its obviously going to be banned. However, I would like to ask everyone to take the good anti ban posts into consideration, however few they were. There were many shit posts about why it shouldn't be banned, but I and maybe a couple others did make reasonable, informed arguments about why it shouldnt be banned. There are multiple counters and multiple checks, and its quite frail.
Thanks for your tim
 
Yes, but the tiers THEMSELVES and the "optimal movesets" and "optimal pokemon" we use in said tiers are derived primarily from the philosophy we use on how to conduct the website and the tiers on the website. The stats and calculations are just a subset of said philosophy.

People play pokemon in different ways, but I think we must look at the way we play pokemon before we decide how it is and what is borken or not broken.
What we're doing is looking at how the majority plays pokemon. And as someone else has said, it doesn't take a skillful player to use lucario. I don't consider myself skillful at pokemon at all but i can sweep teams with mega lucario. The stats are too good, the typing is excellent and Lucario has so many options to use and it has very little counters.
 
I agree with Points one and two, but it feels like this site is one a mega banning crusade (then again I was linked to this thread by GameFAQs and I'm not sure exactly how pervasive the "Stop Having Fun Guy" stereotype is there.)



I kinda agree, Lucario use might be attributed to its popularity, like Charizard. People use it because its popular, granted it didn't have a stealth rock weakness...

Hey you know what is over-centralizing? Stealth Rock, in Gen IV people wouldn't touch Flying and fire types with a 50-foot pole because of that. I'm not sure what it hasn't been banned then (Apart from Rapid Spin)
We are not on a "Mega Banning Crusade". The two Megas Banned so far are blatantly broken and of all the remaining Megas outside of Lucario, Pinsir is possibly the strongest one left offensively.

We're not going to ban Mega Ampharos or god forbid Mega Alakazam. Especially Mega Alakazam which is worse than its regular form.

Lucario is not used becuase of its popularity. Its used because its GOOD.

How is stealth rocks overcentralizing in the current meta game because it was powerful two generations ago?
 

Don Honchkrorleone

Happy Qwilfish the nightmare
is a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
Gentlemen please, we are overrating Lucario
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 182-216 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Something that can break through on of the sturdiest physical walls in the metagame with an unboosted and neutral physical move is not very healthy for the metagame imo...

I'll post about the other two later, as I'm somewhat busy atm.
 
I haven't really played much XY, but I feel like I have played enough against these Pokemon to at least reach a judgement on whether they warrant a ban. Mega Lucario is very reminiscent of Landorus-I in B/W where it has very few, arguably any decent counters, and to reliably stand a chance against it you have to run some obscure counter such as Zapdos or whatever. While running Zapdos may help you beat Mega Lucario consistently, the fact that you should have to run Zapdos on the odd chance your opponent is using Mega Lucario speaks volumes of the influence Mega Lucario has on the metagame and the impact it can have on teambuilding in general. If you are running a fully dedicated Mega Lucario counter, it's more often than not a liability and serves little purpose when your opponent does not bring Mega Lucario. It's also important to note that Lucario can run Special and Physical sets, adding to the unpredictability of Lucario and changing the definition of what a Lucario counter is altogether. Do not use revenge killing as an argument to deal with Mega Lucario - while it's certainly possible to deal with Lucario through a Scarf user or a Mach Punch, to get the opportunity to do so, you need a free turn, often meaning sacking one Pokemon entirely just to get the opportunity to revenge and even then there is nothing stopping the Lucario user from switching out again.

I'm also on the pro-ban side for Genesect, mainly for a lot of the reasons it was banned in B/W. Genesect is probably one of the most threatening Pokemon in the metagame right now, primarily for the fact that it can run so many different sets, all of which are very viable. Genesect is in the same boat as Mega Lucario in that it has very few counters, however all of Genesect's main counters are slower than it, so there is nothing to stop it U-Turning out. The same argument cannot be made for other users of U-Turn / Volt Switch, as no other user of these moves imposes the same threat that Genesect does and they are often slower than their counters [Scizor slower than Heatran, Rotom-W slower than Latias]. It doesn't even matter if you can get your Heatran in on Genesect, because it's going to U-Turn out into something equally threatening that can beat Heatran, or whatever counter you try to argue beats Genesect. This is why Genesect is so viable on offensive teams and warrants a ban as it is literally uncounterable. The prevalence of Defog also means that Genesect isn't being worn down every time it switches in, and in general dealing with Genesect is struggle as to fully deal with it you need to know the full set, by which time it'll probably have significantly dented whatever it needs to. When you factor in Download and Genesect's ridiculous movepool, it's easy to see why Genesect is so hard to deal with and for these reasons I feel a ban is justified.

I feel different about banning Deoxys-S, as I feel it has much less influence on the current metagame than the other two. As a hazard lead, Deoxys is reliable in setting up hazards, but not so much in making sure those hazards stay on the field for the entirety of the match - Defog users are incredibly common and Deoxys can be a liability sometimes against teams with Defog users. It doesn't have the bulk to continually switch in and setup hazards against more defensive teams, while offensive teams can OHKO / 2HKO it, often limiting Deoxys to 2 moves at best, which isn't going to guarantee you all the hazards you ideally want. The offensive set I have found equally underwhelming, as Deoxys does not have the best offensive capabilities, and is often prone to being used as setup fodder after a Psycho Boost which is detrimental for Hyper Offense teams.

If the objective here is to achieve a balanced and competitive metagame, then I feel banning Genesect and Lucarionite will help to reach this ideal metagame.
 

Lord Wallace

Hentai Connoiseur
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I might be the only one here that doesn't think Mega Lucario should be banned. Or at least we shouldn't talk in absolute about his status as Uber. While he does have extreme versatility, Lucario has far more opportunity cost in using than something like M-Kangaskhan or a non-Mega. Lucario is also far frailer with common weaknesses (including one to Mach Punch) and needs more support to set up, it rarely carries the team on its back like Kangaskhan often did. Yes Lucario is impossible to counter, but by definition so was Hydreigon in Gen. 5 (Azumarril is the only true counter now and can also switch into Lucario).
With the bulky offensive nature the meta has taken, I think it's fairly easy to check Lucario and even when set up, the prevalence of Defog often strip him of some important One and Two HKOs on potential checks, interrupting a sweep.
Another point is that while Lucario has power that may very well be broken, and assuming that he cannot be countered, checking him does not centralize the metagame because his various checks are not obscure and dont become irrelevant to the Standard metagame otherwise.

Genesect on the other hand I'm more leaning towards a ban. Similar to why Tornadus-T got banned last gen. It simply provides too much momentum without any disadvantages and does not require any skill or prediction to use to great effect, hurting the competitiveness of the game, not to mention physically inclined sets can rip teams apart late game without needing a set up turn (something Lucario can rarely boast). We're now altering EVs spreads on several Pokemon specifically to spite Genesect. I think that's a sign.

Deoxys-S is fine lol
 

Jukain

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I actually think you're right, but would you care to accompany that statement with some discussion?

I think specifically Lucario is bad for the "moral aspect" of the game for several reasons. Mostly, it doesn't require an especially skillful player to use Lucario. Any player can slap it on a team and expect it to get at least 1 kill a fight. Pokemon like Lucario and Charizard X (I'm not saying X is broken, but its comparable to Lucario in many ways except for the priority) just lack enough sure counters, and therefore don't require a smart team around them to cover their weaknesses because they just don't have that many. I'll put in a little bias, but my favorite pokemon are the ones that can completely wreck teams, when they have the right support. Typically those are the teams that win, and having options like Lucario make people less likely to think through to the more imaginative options.

*note, I don't think the "moral aspect" is enough grounds to ban something though :(
We haven't? Not everything is just considered broken and that's that. What you said right there is a pretty significant factor.
deoxys-s is a cunt because it has taunt to shut down defog, and no one uses spinners anymore except mb exca. with sash it can easily set up 2 layers and then a properly constructed team will have tons of offensive momentum to force the opponent not to defog. even if they do, a switch to defiant bisharp / thundrus can immediately swing the momentum back in the deoxys user's favor. you need to have something like aegi, conk, sash gene to prevent it from getting two layers, and even then, a timely double switch can let 1 hp deo get up the 2nd layer.
GaryTheGengar makes an excellent point here. I feel like everyone is just ignoring Deoxys-S because 'lol Defog', and that isn't a good way to look at this. Hazards Deoxys-S is a total bitch to face, because it's just way too good at its job. Defog doesn't change this that much. If you look at a battle of a competent player using Deoxys-S, there are a lot more issues. How are you Defogging against Bisharp or Thundurus? Do you want to get murdered? There's also the assumption that you have to sack Deoxys-S right away, but there's no reason for that at all. You don't even have to lead with it if you don't want to, and are looking to get the most hazards potential later on. You can also get fucked up because Deoxys-S led, and 'omg its hazards', and boom you just lost a couple Pokemon because you weren't ready. Deoxys-S gives instant momentum to its team in a way no other Pokemon can, and aids its teammates in utterly raping the opposition. It's crazy how good it is at this role, and that's not even mentioning the LO attacker set, which has the coverage to put a big dent in offensive and revenge kill even boosted threats. There's also the dual screens set, which is underrated, but allows sweepers so many setup opportunities that it's insane.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that Deoxys-S, too, is worthy of a ban.
 
I agree with Points one and two, but it feels like this site is one a mega banning crusade (then again I was linked to this thread by GameFAQs and I'm not sure exactly how pervasive the "Stop Having Fun Guy" stereotype is there.)



I kinda agree, Lucario use might be attributed to its popularity, like Charizard. People use it because its popular, granted it didn't have a stealth rock weakness...

Hey you know what is over-centralizing? Stealth Rock, in Gen IV people wouldn't touch Flying and fire types with a 50-foot pole because of that. I'm not sure what it hasn't been banned then (Apart from Rapid Spin)
If you came here from Gamefaqs, then yes I can tell you 2 things: We are absolutely all assholes here and have absolutely no capability of enjoying the game of pokemon. We must ban things all the time and all the detailed arguments and tests we put up are completely for show and the only way to ever ban ANYTHING is to smash our faces into our keyboards until a pokemon's name shows up, at which point we ban it without any stated justification.

Sorry, but GameFaqs is filled with "Lol Smogon is dumb" assertions without reason. I'd be surprised if you learned anything about our procedure there. I was just on the thread there and I felt like I was reading the exact same comments over and over again- both literally and figuratively.

The other, non-sarcastic thing is that Mega Lucario is the last mega that is banworthy at this time. No others are being called for to be banned, and it's unlikely that will change if Luke is banned- yes, there will be another mega people will flock to, but the next strongest Mega (Pinsir) has a terrible typing and is both slower and weaker than Luke. Megas are strong but all the others fit well into the OU Metagame. CharizardXY, MegaPinsir, and Mawile are all top tier but can be played around just like any other OU threat. Though this is to an extent also true for Lucario, it's methods of countering are all either too shaky to be reliable, are mere revenge killing tactics that require you to lose a pokemon anyway, or only work for one type of Luke that isn't running a specific move and as such can not be called counters either. Nothing in OU can reliably handle Mega Lucario, and with it in OU many other megas are losing out, as there is little reason to use any other offensive Mega other than Luke if you have a free choice.
 
Is the point of a Mega Evolution not to fuck up some mons? If Revenge Killing's how you take care of this thing, it makes damn good sense. And as I mentioned in my last post, the scarf users and bulky mons have no trouble with this guy.
 
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