XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[Sarpyn]

I'm also getting the vibe that you think genesect is somehow anti-meta or being banned because he isn't cookie-cutter, though I'm sure I'm just misunderstanding your point there- could you expand on those points a bit please?

What i meant was completely opposite of this, i wanted to mention the quality of play styles genesect has, but he is being abused as U-turn attacker. It's more like togekiss, it has so much potential, but people love abusing serene grace.

And for the cheap thing, people tend to get annoyed by goodra's earthquake on heatran, or mega absol's ice beam on landorus-T. It destroys their plan, it changes the whole pase of the game. I'm not talking about any kind of insult. It is like your gastrodon getting nailed by mamoswine's freeze dry, it is out of your calculation so you get annoyed.

 

[Lord Ghetsis]

My opinion is Deoxys-S for OU.
Since it's really freaking frail, it can set up max one entry hazard or Taunt, then die the next turn with a Sash. Ferrothorn and Forretress, can at least survive more than one attack.
Cloyster will send it right out the door. The Defog buff doesn't help either.

 

[Colonial]

What i meant was completely opposite of this, i wanted to mention the quality of play styles genesect has, but he is being abused as U-turn attacker. It's more like togekiss, it has so much potential, but people love abusing serene grace.

And for the cheap thing, people tend to get annoyed by goodra's earthquake on heatran, or mega absol's ice beam on landorus-T. It destroys their plan, it changes the whole pase of the game. I'm not talking about any kind of insult. It is like your gastrodon getting nailed by mamoswine's freeze dry, it is out of your calculation so you get annoyed.

I see, thank you for elaborating. However, those points don't really help your argument for Genesect staying unbanned. The pivot sets are bad enough, with Genesect's ability to run multiple sets it turns into a Megaluke situation- what set is it? How can it screw me over? Will my counter get screwed by something? And so on.

Noble assertions for staying varied aside, people simply aren't going to want to keep something overpowered in their metagame to provide unpredictability. We have other unpredictable pokemon in OU besides Genesect- Gyarados, Jirachi, Celebi, Tyranitar, CharX, and others can run many, many sets as well.

 

[Laurel]

Not going to answer any responses to this because I don't want to cause trouble, but here is my opinion on the current suspects.

Genesect
Genesect is an incredibly strong pokemon. However, I don't think it is nearly as effective as it used to be in the black and white days. I think the main reason for this is that volt turn offense is not as good because hazards are easier to remove, and also because of Talonflame. It is much easier to switch into its u-turns, and the rock polish set is not nearly as good as it used to be because Heatran is used on about 10% of teams, and in addition, RP gene will struggle to break through stall with Chansey/Blissey, and does not want to take things like Vacuum Wave from Mega Lucario. I don't feel as though Genesect is over centralizing at all, I just think it is a good pokemon. Usually I can just slap an aegislash on my team, and I check every Genesect set. Pokemon like Charizard-Y love switching in on it as long as it doesnt have a +1 tbolt, and getting a free kill. In addition, mega lucario usually doesn't mind using scarf genesect as set up fodder. Honestly, I think the set up fodder that something like a weak ice beam causes can be really bad... Genesect kills say Latias with +0 Ice Beam. Latias user sends in any of Belly Drum Azumarill, Mega Gyarados, Bisharp, Mega Lucario, Charizard-X, Charizard-Y, CM Keldeo, and starts to do work. Obviously, thats the ban of any scarf user, but personally I feel like I take the most advantage out of choice scarf genesect here. Of course it does get Shift Gear, and some new tools since it was OU in Black/White, but it still struggles to beat through Heatran. I also think Shift Gear would be substantially worse if it went +2 attack, and not +2 speed because Extreme Speed ignored the speed anyways. In conclusion though, I know I ramble, Genesect is good but should not be banned. Not sure if we are voting to suspect, I wouldn't even suspect Genesect.

Deoxys-S
Ahh nice Deo-S. Ban this thing please. 504 speed is way too fast, combine that with accessibility to Taunt, Stealth Rock, Spikes, and its amazing offensive movepool and you have something that can not be countered. The best set in my opinion is the life orb attacker set, I honestly think Deo-D is the better Red Card hazard setter due to its bulk, and Deo-D is usually fast enough to taunt everything with defog bar Latios/Latias. Something like Psycho Boost, Super Power, Ice Beam, [Extreme Speed / Fire Punch / etc], can 2hko everything I can think of, and nothing wants to risk switching into it except for like Heat Proof Bronzong. I don't think Deoxys-S is over centralizing, usually I can get away with using teams that aren't prepared for it, but it is really really difficult, and you need at least 2 psychic resists to reliably check it.

Lucarionite
I probably have the strongest feeling about Lucarionite opposed to the other suspects. I think keeping Genesect and banning Deoxys-S, but a lot of people seem to be conflicted over Lucarionite. Lucarionite is absolutely the most over centralizing broken thing in the OU game. It's speed, power, and unpredictability I think are too powerful for the OU metagame. It has access to great boosting moves like Swords Dance, and Nasty Plot, and both its Physical set, and Special set need at least a check a team, like Genesect, I usually slap on an Aegislash to beat the special set but a +2 EQ OHKOs through Shield.

The power.

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 238-280 (65.3 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 316-372 (86.8 - 102.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

BAN

Very centralizing, on PO ladder the use of different metas such as Pinsir, Manectric, Heracross, Charizards, and Mega Gyarados definitely support this. While these are all good with mega lucario, they all see way less usage.

 

[114]

Genesect is the most on the fence right now... honestly when it comes to instances like this I think it's probably appropriate to let it pass this round and let the meta evolve more. I personally love this motherfucker cause it's what I need to check talonflame at 50% since I'll have e-speed. Also technoblast is underrated as fuck. Any physical set should use technoblast. Band is overrated IMO, and scarf, while good but overused, is prone to easy set ups.

If there was ever an argument for genesect being banned, its for a combination of being unpredictable in moveset and unpredictable in item (choice vs. non-choice). I think it should stay OU for now (be conservative), but it'll get banned soon - if not now, later.

Ban lucario now

Deo-S is not used enough lol. Not an argument I know, but seriously... it's actually just not used enough.

 

[Anty]

Genesect is the most on the fence right now... honestly when it comes to instances like this I think it's probably appropriate to let it pass this round and let the meta evolve more. I personally love this motherfucker cause it's what I need to check talonflame at 50% since I'll have e-speed. Also technoblast is underrated as fuck. Any physical set should use technoblast. Band is overrated IMO, and scarf, while good but overused, is prone to easy set ups.

If there was ever an argument for genesect being banned, its for a combination of being unpredictable in moveset and unpredictable in item (choice vs. non-choice). I think it should stay OU for now (be conservative), but it'll get banned soon - if not now, later.

Ban lucario now

Deo-S is not used enough lol. Not an argument I know, but seriously... it's actually just not used enough.

Technoblast isnt very good, as it requires an item and hp ground does as much to tran also it is stuoid having technoblast on a physical set, flamethrower/ice beam is more needed.

Scarf isnt prone to settups, especcially when you get a + spa boost, anyway band is very good, you should only use e speed on it when it is band. It is very threatening as people might assume it is special/scarfed as well as not many can continuously switch into a +1 banded uturn, and tose who can get hit hard by flamethrower/ice beam

 

[Jukain]

one of the most reliable ways to deal with gene imo is to win the speed tie w ur own gene & flamethrower.

this is not reli

Deoxys-S isn't that good.
For starters it's predictable. Yes you read that right, I said predictable.
If it's used as a lead then you know it's the standard entry hazard setter that Deoxys-D does a million times better in this metagame. Deo-S will usually lay down SR and a layer of Spikes, only to get KO'd and have them removed by Defog later in the match. Deoxys-D will be able to come in and lay down hazards multiple times durng the match, thanks to its superior bulk and the ability to make use of Recover.
If it's not leading then Deo-S is most likely running the LO set, often lauded as one of the best revenge killers in the tier, but that's where its major flaw is: it's strictly a revenge killer.
It's not like Scarf Garchomp or Talonflame that can double as wallbreakers or sweepers if you need them to do so, Deo-S's attacks are just too weak to do anything other than revenge killing weakened targets.
Against teams carrying bulky offensive powerhouses such as Aegislash, Kyurem-B and Mega Mawile it's pretty much dead weight. It doesn't help that its most powerful moves, Psycho Boost and Superpower, have those nasty Atk/Sp.Atk drops which turns it into set up bait.

I don't have much to say about Mega Lucario and Genesect other than I agree they're too strong for OU. It's Deoxys-S the one that shouldn't be banned.

Have you ever run into a LO Deoxys-S leading when you thought it was gonna be hazards? And then it took out a couple members of your team? This happens very often. See Laurel's post:

Deoxys-S
Ahh nice Deo-S. Ban this thing please. 504 speed is way too fast, combine that with accessibility to Taunt, Stealth Rock, Spikes, and its amazing offensive movepool and you have something that can not be countered. The best set in my opinion is the life orb attacker set, I honestly think Deo-D is the better Red Card hazard setter due to its bulk, and Deo-D is usually fast enough to taunt everything with defog bar Latios/Latias. Something like Psycho Boost, Super Power, Ice Beam, [Extreme Speed / Fire Punch / etc], can 2hko everything I can think of, and nothing wants to risk switching into it except for like Heat Proof Bronzong. I don't think Deoxys-S is over centralizing, usually I can get away with using teams that aren't prepared for it, but it is really really difficult, and you need at least 2 psychic resists to reliably check it.

This basically covers the LO attacker well. Sure, the bulkiest Pokemon in OU can switch in it...if they're not hit super effectively. It's difficult to take out because it's so fast and has the coverage to wreck so many top threats. It falters against some things, especially more defensive teams, but that doesn't discredit its immense usefulness and scariness vs. other offensive teams. It revenge kills, it cleans, and it ravages teams lacking a solid Pokemon to take at least one hit and kill it.

The LO attacker set isn't broken on its own, but when you combine that it can perform two other roles (hazards and screens), and can bluff both, it's really scary to think about. Another thing: what if you're smart and don't lead with Deoxys-S? Like, against obvious Aegislash/Conkeldurr leads, I'll save it for a bit later so I could have a chance to get up more hazards against defensiveish things. The mid-game SR has literally saved me games just because you need the extra damage for a good amount of things (think putting Genesect in KO range of CB Talonflame's Brave Bird, so it can clean up). You can even lead and set up SR, then switch out on the obvious priority, which they won't risk not going for because more hazards = more hurt, and set up a layer of Spikes later. Sometimes, even, I'll send it in and set up Spikes because they're more effective vs. opposing threats. Their spinner/Defogger will try and come in; with Defog, Thundurus (or Bisharp) will punish the foe, and against a spinner (Excadrill or Starmie), there's always Aegislash, a common feature on HO teams, or Gengar. You can preserve Deoxys-S, take out the spinner, and bring Deoxys-S back in with a good switch/sac. Most often, it gets up hazards, and teams that waste time trying to get rid of hazards often find themselves in a poor position because of the offensive nature of its teammates. This hazard set makes HO really hard to deal with. When they just have things like Garchomp, or even Deoxys-D, it's nowhere near as hard because you can limit the hazards, but Deoxys-S is so fast that all it needs is a sliver of health to continue affecting the match.

The simple fact I'm trying to get across is that Deoxys-S pushes HO over the edge with its hazard set, and the LO attacker set is amazing, too, and can punish teams expecting a hazard lead set.

Another thing is dual screens, which is really underrated in the OU tier just because of how good its other two sets are. Have you ever faced a Mega Charizard X behind screens? Or a Mega Lucario? Or a Mega Pinsir? Tell me how you're Defogging away screens on these top OU threats that can sweep and rip apart your team with the protection of guaranteed screens, as they make these Pokemon really difficult to revenge kill or even hit for decent damage.

On top of all this, Deoxys-S has a myriad of options to fuck over its individual checks. Like, the hazard lead set? Genesect isn't appreciating a Fire Punch. Tyranitar isn't appreciating Superpower (252 Atk has an 81.3% chance to OHKO max HP variants). You can't even counter-lead with your Deoxys-S if it runs Magic Coat, or Prankster Taunt it with Thundurus-I or Sableye. It has Knock Off to screw up Espeon and overall be a big nuisance. The offensive set, too, can run Knock Off, adding another dimension to how much of a bitch it is, screwing over the defensive Pokemon and Psychic resists/immunes that like to switch into it.

Deoxys-S's versatility and unparalleled supporting capabilities for HO, as well as how ridiculously amazingly perfect it is at its roles, making it a clear Uber in my eyes. After using it extensively and facing it a lot more because of the suspect, I'm definitely off the fence.

 

[Bizdis]

I think that sufficient arguments have been made to ban Mega Lucario, and many have been made to ban Genesect, but Deoxys-S is the pokemon I am actually most interested in.

Although Deoxys-S is, without any shadow of a doubt, the strongest lead in the game, we have generally moved away from a lead-based metagame. I would agree that sending Deoxys-S out immediately gives its user an offensive advantage, but the question is whether that offensive advantage can be sustained. I think that this problem applies to all Deoxys-S sets, while I'd agree that the revenge killer can weaken things, and OHKO pokemon with 4x weaknesses, after the initial revenge kill, it will generally lose to whatever comes in next. I feel that in order for a pokemon to be unhealthy for the metagame, it needs to be able to threaten teams in its own right, rather than be exceptionally good at picking off heavily weakened ones (Scizor comes to mind). It is also worth noting that most Deoxys-S revenge killer sets lack priority, something that is abundant in this meta.

We have dealt with pokemon that give an immediate offensive advantage just by being sent out before. For the hazard leads set, an example would be Politoed in BW OU. The user could support the rest of their team with just Politoed, which would give them far more than just some extra damage on the opposing pokemon. In addition, Deoxys-S is a less strong choice if it is not sent out as a lead, and in order to retain offensive momentum if the opponent has Defog, the user also has to run Bisharp. With Politoed, you could use more threatening pokemon, you didn't necessarily have to send it out first if you thought not doing so would lead to a good starting match-up, and it increased the damage that you would be doing much more than Deoxys-S did. Although most ran the bulky set, it was possible to run Specs/Scarf, and mispredicting could result in losing a pokemon.

I would also like to point out that banning it affects Hyper Offensive teams most, a play style that is not particularly strong anyway.

Ideally, somebody would point out exactly what makes Deoxys-S so different from the other powerful lead/support pokemon we have encountered before we seriously consider banning it.

 

[Hibiki]

If you don't lead with your hazard Deo-s, even if you don't get it in until
mid-late game, I've had more than one occasion where the stealth rocks that Deo-s died for secured a much-needed ohko

 

[Jukain]

If you don't lead with your hazard Deo-s, even if you don't get it in until
mid-late game, I've had more than one occasion where the stealth rocks that Deo-s died for secured a much-needed ohko

This. Deoxys-S influences the game in a way no other Pokemon can in that it virtually guarantees hazards. Deoxys-D is too slow to do this job as reliably, and Garchomp (probably the #3 hazard lead behind the Deos) is good, but can only set up SR. Deoxys-S has versatility and insane versatility.

We have dealt with pokemon that give an immediate offensive advantage just by being sent out before. For the hazard leads set, an example would be Politoed in BW OU. The user could support the rest of their team with just Politoed, which would give them far more than just some extra damage on the opposing pokemon. In addition, Deoxys-S is a less strong choice if it is not sent out as a lead, and in order to retain offensive momentum if the opponent has Defog, the user also has to run Bisharp. With Politoed, you could use more threatening pokemon, you didn't necessarily have to send it out first if you thought not doing so would lead to a good starting match-up, and it increased the damage that you would be doing much more than Deoxys-S did. Although most ran the bulky set, it was possible to run Specs/Scarf, and mispredicting could result in losing a pokemon.

Politoed is a much different case. First of all, there were MANY people that wanted a Drizzle ban, it just didn't get a suspect test. I was chatting on PS, and TFC brought this up: Politoed isn't even a good comparison, because arguably it should have been banned. Politoed was an amazing supporter, too, and still is (especially with DrizzleSwim allowed), but it did something different than Deoxys-S that cannot be underestimated. Politoed was also easier to handle defensively because every BW team needed at least two, if not three, Water resists. Politoed also supported many types of teams, but it is not the same case as Deoxys-S by any stretch of the imagination.

Deoxys-S sets up hazards with such immense reliability and gives an immediate advantage to any offensive team. With the addition of stellar HO Pokemon like Talonflame, Aegislash, Mega Lucario, Mega Pinsir, Mega Charizard X/Y, etc., this is a playstyle that's only gotten more effective in the generation shift. Deoxys-S was banned for the same reasons last gen, and the gen before that, and should be banned now, too.

 

[Bizdis]

If you don't lead with your hazard Deo-s, even if you don't get it in until
mid-late game, I've had more than one occasion where the stealth rocks that Deo-s died for secured a much-needed ohko

I think that sacrificing one pokemon in order to assist another in killing something can be considered a healthy strategy.

This. Deoxys-S influences the game in a way no other Pokemon can in that it virtually guarantees hazards. Deoxys-D is too slow to do this job as reliably, and Garchomp (probably the #3 hazard lead behind the Deos) is good, but can only set up SR. Deoxys-S has versatility and insane versatlity.

Politoed is a much different case. First of all, there were MANY people that wanted a Drizzle ban, it just didn't get a suspect test. I was chatting on PS, and TFC brought this up: Politoed isn't even a good comparison, because arguably it should have been banned. Politoed was an amazing supporter, too, and still is (especially with DrizzleSwim allowed), but it did something different than Deoxys-S that cannot be underestimated. Politoed was also easier to handle defensively because every BW team needed at least two, if not three, Water resists. Politoed also supported many types of teams, but it is not the same case as Deoxys-S by any stretch of the imagination.

Deoxys-S sets up hazards with such immense reliability and gives an immediate advantage to any offensive team. With the addition of stellar HO Pokemon like Talonflame, Aegislash, Mega Lucario, Mega Pinsir, Mega Charizard X/Y, etc., this is a playstyle that's only gotten more effective in the generation shift. Deoxys-S was banned for the same reasons last gen, and the gen before that, and should be banned now, too.

Well, fine, the fact is that Politoed didn't get banned because it enabled a certain playstyle, but, if you like, I could bring up Ninetales instead. I actually think that Deoxys-S offers more variety than Politoed because there is a large range of pokemon you can run for a Hyper Offense team, while most rain teams generally ran at least 3-4 of the same pokemon as every other rain team.

What people often complained about was that these weather starters weren't strong outside of setting up weather. Well, after it has set up SR and Spikes, Deoxys-S is most likely dead, making it infinitely less effective than the weather starters after doing its job. It can only set up hazards once, while the weather starters could switch in multiple times, which is also another point, because some of the weather starters could actually switch in, something that Deoxys-S can not do if it wants to be used to its full potential. It is important to remember that after I have set up hazards, I am now down 5-6, meaning that if I don't properly capitalise on the offensive advantage offered by Deoxys-S, I have given up 1/6 of my team a few rounds in, which could hardly be considered good play.

We are not in the same metagame that we were last generation, because there is a much larger range of pokemon that can get hazards off of the field, and I don't feel that being forced to run one of them on most teams is necessarily a bad thing, in the same way that most teams had to run at least one steel type last gen.

Deoxys-S generally isn't actually killing anything outright, unlike the other two suspects, but either finishing the work of another team mate, or boosting the offensive power of other team mates by dying. I don't think its reliability is unhealthy, because if I'm going to sacrifice something, I want to be sure that it will do its job.

 

[Jukain]

I think that sacrificing one pokemon in order to assist another in killing something can be considered a healthy strategy


Well, fine, the fact is that Politoed didn't get banned because it enabled a certain playstyle, but, if you like, I could bring up Ninetales instead. I actually think that Deoxys-S offers more variety than Politoed because there is a large range of pokemon you can run for a Hyper Offense team, while most rain teams generally ran at least 3-4 of the same pokemon as every other rain team.

What people often complained about was that these weather starters weren't strong outside of setting up weather. Well, after it has set up SR and Spikes, Deoxys-S is most likely dead, making it infinitely less effective than the weather starters after doing its job. It can only set up hazards once, while the weather starters could switch in multiple times, which is also another point, because some of the weather starters could actually switch in, something that Deoxys-S can not do if it wants to be used to its full potential. It is important to remember that after I have set up hazards, I am now down 5-6, meaning that if I don't properly capitalise on the offensive advantage offered by Deoxys-S, I have given up 1/6 of my team a few rounds in, which could hardly be considered good play.

We are not in the same metagame that we were last generation, because there is a much larger range of pokemon that can get hazards off of the field, and I don't feel that being forced to run one of them on most teams is necessarily a bad thing, in the same way that most teams had to run at least one steel type last gen.

Deoxys-S generally isn't actually killing anything outright, unlike the other two suspects, but either finishing the work of another team mate, or boosting the offensive power of other team mates by dying. I don't think its reliability is unhealthy, because if I'm going to sacrifice something, I want to be sure that it will do its job.

Who cares what Deoxys-S does after it sets up hazards? Again, this is another thing I've heard a lot from others arguing similar points on the sim and IRC. It's already fuliflled its role in the game if hazards are up.

See, the issue with Defogging is that Deoxys-S teams can punish Defogging thanks to Defiant Thundurus/Bisharp, and spinning is hard against a well-built HO team (i.e. mostly things not outsped by Excadrill). It also provides instant momentum. The moment you get that hazard down, Deoxys-S has already done its job. The fact that if you need to, you can U-turn it in later to get another hazard/reset SR if that's what you need (for example Talonflame on a Rotom-W), just adds to it. Deoxys-S adds instant offensive pressure, and Defog provides momentum for a well-built HO team, which you don't wanna be giving free turns. Latias, for example, is losing huge momentum with a Knock Off Defiant Thundurus in the wings, ready to wreck it.

It doesn't need to kill things outright when you have, with Deoxys-S, 5 other teammates that can seriously damage the opposing team, and SR somewhere if you're smart (think Mamoswine). That's not even the purpose of the set. You can easily take out the frailish offensive Pokemon that dominate the metagame, and the myriad of other things that it has super effective coverage on. And, you can revenge kill top threats that have a +1 boost whilst running a Life Orb. Let's compare this to another revenge killer; say, Garchomp (using a Greninja with 72/100/100 defenses and pure Water typing to run this calc, idk random thing):

252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 242-285 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 196-232 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I wouldn't exactly call a move that does significantly more damage than even ScarfChomp's Outrage (we're comparing revenge killers, so it's a fair comparison) to a balanced target 'weak'. Plus, Deoxys-S isn't walled by a lot of your common bulky Pokemon...Deoxys-S can switch moves, and easily takes out stuff like Skarmory, Mega Venusaur, Landorus-T, and Gliscor, which ScarfChomp could only dream of. It isn't even walled by Blissey thanks to Superpower.

I took a random revenge killer for my example. Don't read too much into it. What I'm trying to say is that LO Deoxys-S's Psycho Boost is veritably powerful, and powerful coverage moves that have the ability to hit SO many top threats super effectively. LO Deoxys-S is a menace that's in a completely different category from other revenge killers. It is the best at that, and the ability to switch moves whilst cleaning is a huge difference. The Special Attack drop caused by Psycho Boost is a pain, but you don't need to resort to it all the time anyways thanks to Ice Beam + HP Fire + Superpower.

 

[Bizdis]

Who cares what Deoxys-S does after it sets up hazards? Again, this is another thing I've heard a lot from others arguing similar points on the sim and IRC. It's already fuliflled its role in the game if hazards are up.

See, the issue with Defogging is that Deoxys-S teams can punish Defogging thanks to Defiant Thundurus/Bisharp, and spinning is hard against a well-built HO team (i.e. mostly things not outsped by Excadrill). It also provides instant momentum. The moment you get that hazard down, Deoxys-S has already done its job. The fact that if you need to, you can U-turn it in later to get another hazard/reset SR if that's what you need (for example Talonflame on a Rotom-W), just adds to it. Deoxys-S adds instant offensive pressure, and Defog provides momentum for a well-built HO team, which you don't wanna be giving free turns. Latias, for example, is losing huge momentum with a Knock Off Defiant Thundurus in the wings, ready to wreck it.

It doesn't need to kill things outright when you have, with Deoxys-S, 5 other teammates that can seriously damage the opposing team, and SR somewhere if you're smart (think Mamoswine). That's not even the purpose of the set. You can easily take out the frailish offensive Pokemon that dominate the metagame, and the myriad of other things that it has super effective coverage on. And, you can revenge kill top threats that have a +1 boost whilst running a Life Orb. Let's compare this to another revenge killer; say, Garchomp (using a Greninja with 72/100/100 defenses and pure Water typing to run this calc, idk random thing):

252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 242-285 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 196-232 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I wouldn't exactly call a move that does significantly more damage than even ScarfChomp's Outrage (we're comparing revenge killers, so it's a fair comparison) to a balanced target 'weak'. Plus, Deoxys-S isn't walled by a lot of your common bulky Pokemon...Deoxys-S can switch moves, and easily takes out stuff like Skarmory, Mega Venusaur, Landorus-T, and Gliscor, which ScarfChomp could only dream of. It isn't even walled by Blissey thanks to Superpower.

I took a random revenge killer for my example. Don't read too much into it. What I'm trying to say is that LO Deoxys-S's Psycho Boost is veritably powerful, and powerful coverage moves that have the ability to hit SO many top threats super effectively. LO Deoxys-S is a menace that's in a completely different category from other revenge killers. It is the best at that, and the ability to switch moves whilst cleaning is a huge difference. The Special Attack drop caused by Psycho Boost is a pain, but you don't need to resort to it all the time anyways thanks to Ice Beam + HP Fire + Superpower.

Well, fine, yes, it has fulfilled its role in the game if hazards are up, but the point I am making is that it doesn't do anything other than set up hazards, and generally, you won't be getting to do it more than once if the opponent gets rid of them. These are two aspects in which it is worse than weather starters, a perfectly balanced aspect of last generation's metagame.

Personally, I don't like Excadrill much as a rapid spinner, and, for argument's sake, I will now put together a list of things that can reliably get rid of hazards against DeoSharp, and not let another pokemon sweep your team while they're at it.

Starmie, Mega Blastoise, Forretress, Gliscor, Mega Scizor, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Donphan.

There are even at least two OU viable pokemon that can stop Deoxys-S from doing its job in the first place:

Mega Absol, Espeon

Now, this is a reasonable list of things that can put a stop to Deoxys-S, and again, I must bring up weather starters, because the only way to negate weather was to run another weather starter. In addition, whilst Deoxys-S beats powerful, frail pokemon that exist in the current metagame, it also loses to many pokemon with priority. Admittedly, Deoxys-S is a great revenge killer, but things like Talonflame and Mega Pinsir are good contenders, who possess powerful priority. In your calc, you used Deoxy-S' most powerful move, which it loses momentum after using, something Talonflame and Mega Pinsir do not do. Another important factor is that Psychic STAB isn't particularly useful, but the same can not be said of Dragon or Flying. Deoxys-S is certainly a powerful pokemon, but it has a fair list of OU viable pokemon that stop it from doing whatever it wants, so it isn't like we are running obscure checks/counters just to stop it from going on a rampage.

 

[Impy]

Deoxys-S is definitely no worse as a lead than it was last gen or the gen before it, but suicide leads aren't as viable as they used to be. Deoxys-S can guarantee rocks, but so can a variety of other pokemon who can survive long enough to do it again. It's still the best at what it does, but I wouldn't call it game-breaking in a metagame where lasting power is just a little more important now than throwing away a member of your team to set up a hazard that might be gone in two or three turns.

 

[MeatOfJustice]

I don't know if someone already posted this, but looks like maybe I found a counter for a Special Mega Lucario:

+2 252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 160-190 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lucario: 254-300 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Both are Modest, so you can just let it take an Aura Sphere and kill it with Fire Blast, but if Goodra doesn't OHKO/dies use a good priority move and it's gone.

 

[Mood4food77]

AV Goodra does beat special lucario, but gets demolished by physical lucario

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 380-448 (98.9 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

 

[Bizdis]

Deoxys-S is definitely no worse as a lead than it was last gen or the gen before it, but suicide leads aren't as viable as they used to be. Deoxys-S can guarantee rocks, but so can a variety of other pokemon who can survive long enough to do it again. It's still the best at what it does, but I wouldn't call it game-breaking in a metagame where lasting power is just a little more important now than throwing away a member of your team to set up a hazard that might be gone in two or three turns.

Precisely. I don't think Deoxys-S is anywhere near the threat Mega Lucario and Genesect are, who are much better adapted to suit the current metagame. The main problem with all of these pokemon is that they are difficult to predict, but, unlike Genesect and Lucario, mispredicting Deoxys-S has no chance of letting it sweep your team.

 

[Chrattac]

Calcs about Moltres against luke I mentioned before...

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Moltres: 290-342 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Moltres: 194-229 (50.6 - 59.7%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Moltres: 97-115 (25.3 - 30%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Moltres: 182-215 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 208+ SpD Moltres: 153-181 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 208+ SpD Moltres: 153-181 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 208+ SpD Moltres: 153-181 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 208+ SpD Moltres: 153-181 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 248 HP / 208+ SpD Moltres: 77-91 (20.1 - 23.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 208+ SpD Moltres: 164-193 (42.8 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 314-372 (111.7 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Switch into special variant and OHKO back w/o dying even after rocks, usually I just hard switch straight against Lukes with Moltres, knowing they can't OHKO with anything and I am pretty much safe even if they set up on corresponding turn. On Physical, after rocks it's good bye anyway. Main thing with this way to handle it is, as calcs show, everything is after +2 so . Then again you can alter EVs if you feel either is more dominant, in comparison:

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Moltres: 198-233 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Moltres: 227-268 (59.2 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

CC hurts even Moltres tho and it can't live +2 even at max defensive investment after rocks (which are bane for this one fiery bird). But just shows how dominant Luke is and only having it on opposite side multiplies pressure on getting rocks off and keeping the specifically tailored counter alive. And, let me tell you, good players can keep rocks up just enough time...

And Stalltres is very viable too as it can takes stuff like Aegislash, Pressure stall slower Rotom-Ws out of Hydro Pumps etc... it can even deal with Heatrans if you wish to sacrifice toxic for hp fire (only advisable if that particular poké is causing problems of course). Pressire substall w/toxic is kinda hard to play around if opponent doesn't have Moltres-relevant pokés alive anymore (like T-Tar or anything with Rock moves)

E: I just realized Lukes have access to Stone Edge or Rock Slide, very rare but still an option if some fire types are harder to deal for your team instead of whatever other Coverage you are thinking... Obviously Moltres would be simply annihilated should Luke carry that move. And then there is Thunder Punch which, as I already mentioned, is very rare and has 68,8 chance to OHKO that Moltres when +2 and "only" 31,3% chance to 2HKO if unboosted...

 

[TrippingRocks]

Who cares what Deoxys-S does after it sets up hazards? Again, this is another thing I've heard a lot from others arguing similar points on the sim and IRC. It's already fuliflled its role in the game if hazards are up.

Pokemon who's sole purpose is to just set up hazards is not as viable as it used to be. Still viable, yes, but not as effective as last gen or the gen before that. Plus, it's role is not "fulfilled" if its hazards are blown away soon after.

See, the issue with Defogging is that Deoxys-S teams can punish Defogging thanks to Defiant Thundurus/Bisharp, and spinning is hard against a well-built HO team (i.e. mostly things not outsped by Excadrill). It also provides instant momentum. The moment you get that hazard down, Deoxys-S has already done its job. The fact that if you need to, you can U-turn it in later to get another hazard/reset SR if that's what you need (for example Talonflame on a Rotom-W), just adds to it. Deoxys-S adds instant offensive pressure, and Defog provides momentum for a well-built HO team, which you don't wanna be giving free turns. Latias, for example, is losing huge momentum with a Knock Off Defiant Thundurus in the wings, ready to wreck it.

There are ways to get around/punish defog and rapid spin. Still doesn't change the fact that it is harder for hazards to stay on the field than in any other generation. Excadrill, Starmie, and M-Blastoise all make for great rapid spinners. Not only are there super-viable rapid spinners in OU, but there's also a plethora of defoggers like Lati@s, Mandibuzz, Scizor, and Skarmory. HO teams by their very nature aim to strike fast for a quick victory. It should come to no surprise that dedicating a turn to getting rid of hazards grants momentum to an HO team, this is a characteristic of those teams, not to Deoxys-S. Deoxys-S can only reliable set-up hazards.... as long as he isn't facing Espeon/Absol/prankster users/priority users/or anything with magic coat. As a hazard setter, Deoxys-S has a few things going for him... first and foremost, he's really fast. Second, he has a good movepool for support, with gems like Magic Coat and Taunt. Lastly, he's versatile enough to trick people into thinking he's offensive or something. Cons include his horrible typing and his mediocre-at-best bulk.

It doesn't need to kill things outright when you have, with Deoxys-S, 5 other teammates that can seriously damage the opposing team, and SR somewhere if you're smart (think Mamoswine). That's not even the purpose of the set. You can easily take out the frailish offensive Pokemon that dominate the metagame, and the myriad of other things that it has super effective coverage on. And, you can revenge kill top threats that have a +1 boost whilst running a Life Orb. Let's compare this to another revenge killer; say, Garchomp (using a Greninja with 72/100/100 defenses and pure Water typing to run this calc, idk random thing):

252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 242-285 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 196-232 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Deoxys-S makes for a great revenge killer. However, Psychic has bad coverage and it cripples his SpA afterwards. He can lean back on Superpower and Fire Punch, but it's not going to do much damage to anything that's not weak to it. He'll likely have to switch out after Psycho Boost. All of his sets arel easy prey for anything with priority, and there's a lot of things that pack priority. Including the dreaded Aegislash which completely walls Deoxys-S if he doesn't have Fire Punch. Heck, even with Fire Punch it's only a 4HKO on shield Aegislash. If you carry the rarer physically offensive Deoxys-S, it's still only a 3HKO.

0 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 96-114 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 122-146 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I wouldn't exactly call a move that does significantly more damage than even ScarfChomp's Outrage (we're comparing revenge killers, so it's a fair comparison) to a balanced target 'weak'. Plus, Deoxys-S isn't walled by a lot of your common bulky Pokemon...Deoxys-S can switch moves, and easily takes out stuff like Skarmory, Mega Venusaur, Landorus-T, and Gliscor, which ScarfChomp could only dream of. It isn't even walled by Blissey thanks to Superpower.

I took a random revenge killer for my example. Don't read too much into it. What I'm trying to say is that LO Deoxys-S's Psycho Boost is veritably powerful, and powerful coverage moves that have the ability to hit SO many top threats super effectively. LO Deoxys-S is a menace that's in a completely different category from other revenge killers. It is the best at that, and the ability to switch moves whilst cleaning is a huge difference. The Special Attack drop caused by Psycho Boost is a pain, but you don't need to resort to it all the time anyways thanks to Ice Beam + HP Fire + Superpower.

Like I said before, Deoxys-S makes for a great revenge killer, but I'm not sure he's the best. I'd argue that that honor belongs to Banded Talonflame, who not only is faster than Deoxys-S, but doesn't lose momentum after using Brave Bird. Sure, Deoxys-S isn't locked into a move, but even his coverage attacks (assuming they deal SE damage) deal less damage than Talonflame's banded BB.

Deoxys-S is the best HO hazard lead setter in the game, but there are ways to stop him. Even though he's the best HO hazard lead, the role of a suicide lead has weakened a bit in this generation. His offensive set is great, having blistering speed and awesome coverage. However, the rise of priority attackers has knocked Deoxys-S a peg down or two. Aegislash, a rather common pokemon in OU, is a good counter to Deoxys-S, only fearing fire punch, which would typically be a 4HKO since most Deoxys-S run max Sp.A investment rather than Atk.

 

[Clone]

PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS ONLY COVERS LUKE

Im gonna start out with my experience as a competitive player. I play Showdown for fun, and lately Ive been getting into competitive discussions on Serebii forums. I consider myself fairly decent, but nowhere near the best. If I run into a good player, then I will get demolished. While I dont have the expertise of many of the vets, I still think what I have to say should be considered. On to my main point.

Mega Luke. Many people say that he should be banned. Do I agree? Maybe. Is he good? Yes. Is he OP? Debatable. Lets consider the facts:

Pros:
Adaptability
Base 112 Speed
base 145/140 offenses
High Powered STAB moves
Somewhat unpredictable

Cons:
Frail. Very frail, especially after Close Combat
Vaccuum Wave is the only Priority for the special set, which isnt the best move in the game.
Easily revenge killed

Lets go on to revenge killing. It has been a staple part of competitive play that you need a revenge killer. Some examples include Scarfed Terrakion, ScarfChomp, Special Scarf Genesect, Ditto, and Talonflame. With mega Lucario, anything faster than him that holds a scarf is usually enough to eat up a priority move and KO with a strong STAB move.

Yes, Mega Lucario can sweep teams. Hes a sweeper. Its his job. Most teams, unless theyre stall, should always pack a revenge killer. Scarfers have been part of the Metagame since Gen 4, when the item was released. Most scarfers, like I said before, can usually eat up a Bullet Punch/Extreme Speed/Vaccum Wave, even at +2.

With that out of the way, theres no real counters other than Aegislash, which is 3HKOd from either side and KOs with Sacred Sword, and Mega Venusaur. That in itself is a reason for him to be banned, since he has only a few hard counters, only checks. So theres the arguements against him, lets look at what happens next.

Next, lets say he IS banned. Whos next? Megas such as Mawile, Charizard (both) Venusaur, and Pinsir will come up to the stage. All of these Pokemon are very good megas that are under the shadows of Luke, just like Luke was under the shadows of Kanga and Gengar when they were still allowed.

Mawile has an attack stat of over 600 when fully invested in attack. What walls that? Nothing really. The only hard counter that can really be found is a ghost relinquished to UU last gen.. Cofagrigus (who also walls Luke). His Mummy ability allows him to for Mawile out, since she loses Huge Power on contact. Since noone uses Cofagrigus, hes considered an obscure counter. Sucker punch is also given to Mawile, bypassing her terrible speed. this allows her to hit would be checks and kill them before they can kill her. Now that Ive said this, Ill get to the point.

Why bring up other megas, when Luke is the one at large? The answer is simple. Once Hes gone, others will take his place, untill most of the viable Megas are banned for eternity. Luke was under the shadows of Kanga and Gengar, and there are very good megas that are in his shadow.

Just remember that Luke cant do shit to something that can eat up an extreme speed and KO it back that holds a Scarf. The metagame can adapt. It has before, and it can do it again. Scarf= GG Luke

Im not trying to sway anyones opinions, but please consider that all this trash talk will happen again once round two comes in and the other megas are put into the spotlight.

Final verdict on Luke: My vote says no.

 

[Jukain]

Like I said before, Deoxys-S makes for a great revenge killer, but I'm not sure he's the best. I'd argue that that honor belongs to Banded Talonflame, who not only is faster than Deoxys-S, but doesn't lose momentum after using Brave Bird. Sure, Deoxys-S isn't locked into a move, but even his coverage attacks (assuming they deal SE damage) deal less damage than Talonflame's banded BB.

Semantics are semantics, w/e. Deoxys-S does things like easily KO Garchomp, for example, that BB can't hope to do. BB isn't just isn't enough all the time, and Deoxys-S can switch up moves to pack the hurt on things that resist its attacks. Also, Skarmory switches into CB BB, it's forced out. But Deoxys-S's Ice Beam, or Superpower?:

252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 185-218 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So boom, there's a 2HKOed Skarmory. Talonflame isn't too hard to force out with your Brave Bird resist, but you can't force out Deoxys-S by just resisting its attacks. Talonflame probably holds the RK'er crown, but Deoxys-S is an easy competitor for that spot, too.

Cloneblazer12, it doesn't matter what's next, we can ban those too if necessary. We've also established that revenge killing doesn't matter when it's practically the only way to deal with it outside of like a few things...and you can stop your special counters + your physical counters (mostly) with this set:

Lucario @ Lucarionite
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Flash Cannon
- Extreme Speed
- Work Up

Like outside of Aegislash (which isn't too hard to wear down) what actually beats this set ?_?

Well, fine, yes, it has fulfilled its role in the game if hazards are up, but the point I am making is that it doesn't do anything other than set up hazards, and generally, you won't be getting to do it more than once if the opponent gets rid of them. These are two aspects in which it is worse than weather starters, a perfectly balanced aspect of last generation's metagame.

Personally, I don't like Excadrill much as a rapid spinner, and, for argument's sake, I will now put together a list of things that can reliably get rid of hazards against DeoSharp, and not let another pokemon sweep your team while they're at it.

Starmie, Mega Blastoise, Forretress, Gliscor, Mega Scizor, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Donphan.

There are even at least two OU viable pokemon that can stop Deoxys-S from doing its job in the first place:

Mega Absol, Espeon

Now, this is a reasonable list of things that can put a stop to Deoxys-S, and again, I must bring up weather starters, because the only way to negate weather was to run another weather starter. In addition, whilst Deoxys-S beats powerful, frail pokemon that exist in the current metagame, it also loses to many pokemon with priority. Admittedly, Deoxys-S is a great revenge killer, but things like Talonflame and Mega Pinsir are good contenders, who possess powerful priority. In your calc, you used Deoxy-S' most powerful move, which it loses momentum after using, something Talonflame and Mega Pinsir do not do. Another important factor is that Psychic STAB isn't particularly useful, but the same can not be said of Dragon or Flying. Deoxys-S is certainly a powerful pokemon, but it has a fair list of OU viable pokemon that stop it from doing whatever it wants, so it isn't like we are running obscure checks/counters just to stop it from going on a rampage.

I really don't think I can make this more clear: It has done its job after it sets up hazards. I even went so far as to say how you play Deoxys-S, aka you don't have to fodder it, and don't have to lead with it 100% of the time. The fact is that once Deoxys-S sets up a hazard, at any point in the game, it has gained its team momentum. The guaranteed hazards it brings can turn battles from an outplayed loss into a crapshoot because once those hazards are up, and you can't stop them reasonably if the player knows how to use Deoxys-S without giving up your own momentum.

How is Starmie reliably spinning against Aegislash, a premier Pokemon for HO teams to run? How is Forretress spinning against Aegislash? How is Donphan switching into [insert HO threat here]? Mega Blastoise is getting immensely worn down by the hazards, so guess what? Your hazards have done their job. Mega Blastoise can scarcely switch in, and is 2HKOed/OHKOed by so many things after hazards, it's not even funny. Defog Gliscor loses Poison Heal, so it's easy as pie to deal with. Skarmory and Mandibuzz, okay I guess, but they're both fucked by Defiant Thundurus-I, which is a big thing I mentioned and is quickly becoming, alongside Bisharp, one of the premier Defiant Pokemon for HO. They can't switched into Greninja for shit, they can't handle special Mega Lucario, they can't handle Megazard X, they can't handle Megazard Y...the fact is that although these Pokemon can remove hazards, they're not that difficult to remove, and getting Deoxys-S back in for a SR instantly gives you huge momentum. I mentioned a bunch of Pokemon for Deoxys-S HO right here that obviously aren't realistic to run all together, but the fact remains that there's Aegislash/Gengar, there's Defiant Pokemon, there's all the powerful offensive threats...Defogging/spinning isn't easy without losing momentum of your own. These Pokemon you mention all have one common theme: not hard to wear down (outside of Mega Scizor, which is seriously weakened by hazards because of its lack of Leftovers recovery, and thus becomes easier to deal with). They're also, ignoring Mega Scizor, boned by Greninja.

Look I'm not trying to state here that Defogging/spinning is impossible, but you can just as well take out the hazard remover thanks to the free turn the moves give and get up SR.

Oh, and another common theme these Pokemon share? Wrecked by Kyurem-B, again ignoring Mega Scizor. Mega Scizor fares well against parts of Deoxys-S HO...except Mega Lucario, except the Megazards, except Talonflame, except Mega Pinsir. These Pokemon aren't all too difficult to pressure, and as we've established, Defog loses you momentum because of Defiant Pokemon, and Aegislash is a sturdy spinblocker that screws over all your precious spinners except Excadrill.

Mega Absol and Espeon can indeed stop Deoxys-S...that's why you prey on them in the obvious lead matchup with something else, and set up hazards later with something else.

Since you don't seem to believe me no matter what I say that isn't that hard, let's take dragonuser vs. liberty32 from SPL Week 3. In this match, liberty32 leads and sets up SR. He then switches out so as not to get killed off by Conkeldurr. He sacks Deoxys-S later -- another key thing I've been forgetting to cover. HO loves the ability of Deoxys-S to do its job and then just get sacked, getting something in for free. Deoxys-S CAN come back in later and set up another layer, or SR again, but it didn't even need to this match. The guaranteed SR was enough, and then it made an excellent sac. Anyways, back on topic: SR has a clear effect on the match. It lets liberty32 get past Talonflame and Chandelure much easier. You can clearly see his Defiant Thundurus-I, which, if dragonuser had packed a Defogger instead of Excadrill, would have punished Defog very badly. liberty32 is actually forced to sac Gengar to deal with Excadrill, which uses EQ vs. his (Scarf) Excadrill. Overall, the guaranteed SR made the matchup much easier for liberty32, and pushed his HO team to have an extreme advantage over the opposing team.

Another good match to look at is GaryTheGengar vs. idiotfrommars from SPL Week 2. In this match, there is not one, but two Deoxys-S, and they're the revenge killer and hazard sets. You clearly see the hazard-setting Deoxys-S dominating this match. Deoxys-S manages to come in mid-game and get up SR + 2 layers of Spikes, and weaken a Bisharp significantly. Through these easy hazards, GaryTheGengar nets an easy Mega Lucario sweep, but only because of Deoxys-S. Those hazards made the match complete cake for GTG, and gave him an advantage impossible otherwise. You see Deoxys-S get up the hazards, and IFM's team raped because of this. Stopping Deoxys-S, due to some good calls by GTG, was all but impossible for idiotfrommars. Again, you see Deoxys-S granting an extreme advantage. IFM's Deoxys-S didn't do nothing -- RK'ing Greninja with ease is no small feat. It was just stopped short by an opposing hazards Deoxys-S, which proceeded to dominate the game.

You can see in these matches between some of the best OU players how brutal Deoxys-S can be in the hands of a good player. The ladder is not a good representation of how good it is unless you're actually facing good people, and these SPL matches help illustrate how Deoxys-S is broken.

 

[doughboy]

Jukain I have a number of issues with your posts.

This. Deoxys-S influences the game in a way no other Pokemon can in that it virtually guarantees hazards. Deoxys-D is too slow to do this job as reliably, and Garchomp (probably the #3 hazard lead behind the Deos) is good, but can only set up SR. Deoxys-S has versatility and insane versatility.

Deoxys-S sets up hazards with such immense reliability and gives an immediate advantage to any offensive team. With the addition of stellar HO Pokemon like Talonflame, Aegislash, Mega Lucario, Mega Pinsir, Mega Charizard X/Y, etc., this is a playstyle that's only gotten more effective in the generation shift. Deoxys-S was banned for the same reasons last gen, and the gen before that, and should be banned now, too.

Actually some consider Deoxys-D much better than Deoxys-S at laying down hazards, including myself. First of all, Deoxys-D isn't forced to run Focus Sash and can actually use its item slot. That item slot acts an extension of its moveset, it essentially has 5 "moveslots." For example, Red Card forces out setup sweepers or Pokemon that attempt to 2HKO you. Taunt on Deo-S does the former. Mental Herb serves to beat opposing leads that would Taunt Deoxys-D so you can Taunt back and get two free layers. Deo-D sets up two layers on pokes that normally kill deo-s like Assault Vest Knock Off Conkeldurr

Second, Deoxys-S is 2HKO'ed by many Pokemon that limit it just to a layer of Stealth Rock! Unlike last gen, this gen we have many Pokemon that can fire off a high powered move, then priority or 2HKO and then remove the hazard to Defog. The most important are the Pokemon that can 2HKO Deoxys-S and pull off Defog. That means Deoxys-S has to Taunt the Pokemon that has Defog, and then on the same turn as it dies set up SR. The two huge difference from last gen are this:
a. Deoxys-S last gen was not 2HKO'ed by any Pokemon with Rapid Spin except Starmie. There was no 50-50 prediction of "am I going to die and only get up SR," you could get up SR or get a free switch and live for another day
b. The Pokemon that are limiting Deoxys-S to SR this generation aren't the piece of shit Rapid Spinners like last gen. The defog'ers this generation have a good defensive and offensive presence on the field, so the opponent is not as forceful against the hazard removers this gen.

Basically Deoxys-S is a bit prediction reliant this gen and Deoxys-D is not; it has some risky play. Also Deoxys-S does not give as an immediate advantage as you think...

Who cares what Deoxys-S does after it sets up hazards? Again, this is another thing I've heard a lot from others arguing similar points on the sim and IRC. It's already fuliflled its role in the game if hazards are up.

What Deoxys-S does after setting up hazards is completely relevant to its effectiveness as a lead. Deoxys-S, unlike other leads, has a problem with removing itself from the field. This creates a problem for the Deoxys-S user in question because you can't remove a threat to the pokemon after Deoxys-S. Granted the one move that can force you out is varied, but it is the only option Deoxys-S can resort to other than a hard switch after its Taunt'ed / laid all its hazards down.

If you put the Pokemon most threatening to the Pokemon after Deoxys-S or the one that can lead to a target you can defog / Rapid Spin on, two things will happen:
a. Deoxys-S will be forced to stay-in because the risk of losing an offensive pokemon will be too high
b. You retain the some momentum if it decides to just sack itself for switch initiative.

Also Excadrill has a very real possibility on staying in on deo-s this gen without fire punch.

See, the issue with Defogging is that Deoxys-S teams can punish Defogging thanks to Defiant Thundurus/Bisharp, and spinning is hard against a well-built HO team (i.e. mostly things not outsped by Excadrill). It also provides instant momentum. The moment you get that hazard down, Deoxys-S has already done its job. The fact that if you need to, you can U-turn it in later to get another hazard/reset SR if that's what you need (for example Talonflame on a Rotom-W), just adds to it. Deoxys-S adds instant offensive pressure, and Defog provides momentum for a well-built HO team, which you don't wanna be giving free turns. Latias, for example, is losing huge momentum with a Knock Off Defiant Thundurus in the wings, ready to wreck it.

Yes Defog is punishable, but you know what it gets the job done. Unlike Rapid Spin, the effect of Defog still takes place, so the opponent is unable to maintain the pressure of hazards along with a predicted removal of hazards. Ideally you can pull off the Defog early game after Deoxys-S dies because you will still have a healthy check to a grand total of 2 sweepers that can take advantage from Defog (Bisharp is good, defiant thuny is meh) outside of momentum.

You say that Defog provides a free turn to switch in for offensive teams, which is true. But think about it, what are these guys switching on. The Pokemon that are using Defog this gen can hold their own to a variety of pokes, whether in a defensive manner or an offensive one. The opponent does take risk on switching in on Latios because most offensive teams will be hard pressed to absorb a Life Orb Draco Meteor or its coverage if they mispredict the Defog. Last generation the opponent could risk an offensive pokemon switching into a Rapid Spinner for momentum because outside of Analytic Starmie, none of them were strong enough to really prevent setup or cause damage. But not this generation. I find that in this generation the Pokemon using Defog present enough of a fair risk to the opponent that the idea of Defog giving a complete free turn to the opponent is wrong. This lessens the pressure of Deoxys-S' hazards on the game as a whole to the point where I feel Deoxys-S is less of an Ubers candidate.

tl;dr better pressure hazard removers in defoggers = no free turns on switching into defog, less momentum, not uber-worthy

edit: Jukain would dragonuser vs liberty32 played out different if he used Custap Skarmory or Aero? Both could come in and set SR again if need be when brought to their sash and saved. He didn't set up vs a pokemon like a scarfer that would otherwise outspeed. He just got it to its sash and then sacked it. Does Deoxys-S using Psycho Boost and Superpower show how it forfeits its momentum to get set up on (in this case an opposing deo-s) in idiotfrommars vs GaryTheGengar?

 

[Clone]

Jukain

Noone runs mixed Luke. And you completely missed the point. Revenge killing is always necessary. Otherwise, what stops a SD Jolly Garchomp from sweeping a team? The first thing that comes to mind is Mamoswine. I know youre too adamant to have your opinion swayed, but at least consider the facts.

The metagame adapted to the so called OP rain. People complained, but they adapted. Its really not that hard to adapt to something once you know how to beat it.

And if some of the megas are gonna be so good that theyll get banned, why not have them now? Oh yeah, because There will ALWAYS be something better out there. Why do you think Keldeo was brought up in gen 5 so late? It was simply because there was something better out there that completely overshadowed it.

 

[Hibiki]

Mega Luke is not "very" frail. It can take unboosted hits when it has to. Gliscor needs investment to OHKO with EQ & rocks.

 

[TrippingRocks]

PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS ONLY COVERS LUKE

Im gonna start out with my experience as a competitive player. I play Showdown for fun, and lately Ive been getting into competitive discussions on Serebii forums. I consider myself fairly decent, but nowhere near the best. If I run into a good player, then I will get demolished. While I dont have the expertise of many of the vets, I still think what I have to say should be considered. On to my main point.

Mega Luke. Many people say that he should be banned. Do I agree? Maybe. Is he good? Yes. Is he OP? Debatable. Lets consider the facts:

Pros:
Adaptability
Base 112 Speed
base 145/140 offenses
High Powered STAB moves
Somewhat unpredictable

Cons:
Frail. Very frail, especially after Close Combat
Vaccuum Wave is the only Priority for the special set, which isnt the best move in the game.
Easily revenge killed

70/88/70 defense is not that frail. It's not great, but those defensive stats aren't too shabby. Obviously, M-Lucario can't tank SE hits, but he can definitely take a hit and be okay. Combined with his great defensive typing, M-Lucario is NOT frail. Close Combat makes him more frail, yes, but that's after he's smacked something hard and CC is not applicable to his specially offensive sets. Vacuum wave may be his only special priority attack, but many pokemon don't get priority at all. M-Lucario not only has the luxury of STAB priority, but that STAB is further strengthened from his ability and he can pick from THREE different types of priority attacks, Bullet Punch, Extremespeed, and Vacuum wave. How many pokemon can claim that they have three different forms of priority? Two of which are STAB. Since he has 3 different types of priority, it makes him harder to revenge kill than your run-of-the-mill sweeper.

Your "cons" for M-Lucario aren't really cons.

Lets go on to revenge killing. It has been a staple part of competitive play that you need a revenge killer. Some examples include Scarfed Terrakion, ScarfChomp, Special Scarf Genesect, Ditto, and Talonflame. With mega Lucario, anything faster than him that holds a scarf is usually enough to eat up a priority move and KO with a strong STAB move.

Yes, Mega Lucario can sweep teams. Hes a sweeper. Its his job. Most teams, unless theyre stall, should always pack a revenge killer. Scarfers have been part of the Metagame since Gen 4, when the item was released. Most scarfers, like I said before, can usually eat up a Bullet Punch/Extreme Speed/Vaccum Wave, even at +2.

With that out of the way, theres no real counters other than Aegislash, which is 3HKOd from either side and KOs with Sacred Sword, and Mega Venusaur. That in itself is a reason for him to be banned, since he has only a few hard counters, only checks. So theres the arguements against him, lets look at what happens next.

I doubt something like Scarfed Terrakion can take on a +2 Bullet Punch/Vacuum wave. For the other scarfed pokemon, a +2 hit from M-Lucario would hurt like heck and they're unlikely to survive if they're not completely healthy.

Next, lets say he IS banned. Whos next? Megas such as Mawile, Charizard (both) Venusaur, and Pinsir will come up to the stage. All of these Pokemon are very good megas that are under the shadows of Luke, just like Luke was under the shadows of Kanga and Gengar when they were still allowed.

Mawile has an attack stat of over 600 when fully invested in attack. What walls that? Nothing really. The only hard counter that can really be found is a ghost relinquished to UU last gen.. Cofagrigus (who also walls Luke). His Mummy ability allows him to for Mawile out, since she loses Huge Power on contact. Since noone uses Cofagrigus, hes considered an obscure counter. Sucker punch is also given to Mawile, bypassing her terrible speed. this allows her to hit would be checks and kill them before they can kill her. Now that Ive said this, Ill get to the point.

Why bring up other megas, when Luke is the one at large? The answer is simple. Once Hes gone, others will take his place, untill most of the viable Megas are banned for eternity. Luke was under the shadows of Kanga and Gengar, and there are very good megas that are in his shadow.

Just remember that Luke cant do shit to something that can eat up an extreme speed and KO it back that holds a Scarf. The metagame can adapt. It has before, and it can do it again. Scarf= GG Luke

Im not trying to sway anyones opinions, but please consider that all this trash talk will happen again once round two comes in and the other megas are put into the spotlight.

Final verdict on Luke: My vote says no.

You're basically making the slippery slope argument. "If we ban A, we might continue and ban B later!" The slippery slope argument is not only weak, but it misses the point of balancing. We balance the game to prevent over-centralizing Pokemon from dominating the metagame. You sway no one when you argue that some other Mega pokemon might get banned after M-Lucario.