XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[Adamant Jirachi]

"Moderators have already made it clear that being revenge killable doesn't affect brokenness."
um what
lemme read that again
and simplify it
"just because there are simple ways to counter it, doesn't mean it isn't broken"
wow okay

 

[Colonial]

"Moderators have already made it clear that being revenge killable doesn't affect brokenness."
um what
lemme read that again
and simplify it
"just because there are simple ways to counter it, doesn't mean it isn't broken"
wow okay

Did you read any of the other arguments about that statement? If something can only be reliably dealt with by letting something die so a scarfer can get in to revenge kill it, then it's broken. ANY pokemon can be revenge killed, using that argument as a negative for Megaluke doesn't make sense. Especially when Luke has 3 types of priority to use and so your scarfer has to take a boosted ExtremeSpeed or Adaptability Vacuum Wave off 140+ attacking stats anyway. Scarfers aren't "simple ways to counter" anything because they aren't counters- in fact, most good scarfers are barely checks.

 

[-Nitro-]

"Moderators have already made it clear that being revenge killable doesn't affect brokenness."
um what
lemme read that again
and simplify it
"just because there are simple ways to counter it, doesn't mean it isn't broken"
wow okay

Revenge killing isn't a counter, it's a check. Even Xerneas has checks. Just because I can kill it with Scizor doesn't mean it isn't uber.

 

[TROP]

Revenge killing is far from countering.

"Moderators have already made it clear that being revenge killable doesn't affect brokenness."
um what
lemme read that again
and simplify it
"just because there are simple ways to counter it, doesn't mean it isn't broken"
wow okay

 

[Morningstar]

Personally I don't think Mega-Lucario or Genesect are broken (though TBH I hadn't used the Genesect at all nor do I have a Deoxys)

* Genesect is slow and reques an item for type changing meaning that if it runs Scarf it would be stuck with a 4x Fire weakness. On top of that some pokemon have Sturdy (granted few if any have access to both at the same time)
* Mega-Lucario still has the ironic weakness to fighting and the fact that you need the Mega stone meaning that he can't use Choice items/Leftovers/Lie Orb
* On the other hand, we have Deoxys as a Legendary with the ability to change formes to be anywhere from a Glass Cannon (Attack forme) to a Stone Wall (Defense forme) to a Jack of all Stats (Normal Forms) to a straight up Lightning Bruiser (Speed Forme) and yes I go to tvtropes and no I did not say "Fragile Speedster" because as a legendary his "bad" stats are still gonna be on par with other OU mons. I find it ironic that its the Lightning Bruiser sets that are rampaging around OU

TL;DR? If any of the three is getting the ban hammer it would be Deoxys, and if Mega Lucario is getting banned then we might as well ban Mega-Evolutions altogether.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

"Moderators have already made it clear that being revenge killable doesn't affect brokenness."
um what
lemme read that again
and simplify it
"just because there are simple ways to counter it, doesn't mean it isn't broken"
wow okay

I was specifically thinking of this post, he's "just" a mentor, but clearly knows what he's talking about, at least he knows what it means to counter a pokemon, which you obviously don't

just because it's revenged by a few scarfers doesn't make something not broken. you can revenge kill darkrai with scarf genesect, rayquaza with scarf garchomp, arceus with scarf terrakion, etc. if you want to not ban lucario because there are scarfers/general pkmn that can revenge kill it you may as well unban the entire uber tier because that can be said for literally anything in the game.

Plus, there is nothing simple about going up against Lucario, the only decent scarfers atm are genesect, and a couple of garchomps and similar pokemon. Besides Genesect, they all have big incentives to choose other items. Even assuming you did have a scarf, you have to know how much Lucario's priority hits it, and if it can afford to be hit by those. Wow indeed

 

[Adamant Jirachi]

i'm just saying that Lucario's frail defences leave him open to scarfed threats, didn't mean to sound rude there

 

[KztxL7]

* On the other hand, we have Deoxys as a Legendary with the ability to change formes to be anywhere from a Glass Cannon (Attack forme) to a Stone Wall (Defense forme) to a Jack of all Stats (Normal Forms) to a straight up Lightning Bruiser (Speed Forme) and yes I go to tvtropes and no I did not say "Fragile Speedster" because as a legendary his "bad" stats are still gonna be on par with other OU mons. I find it ironic that its the Lightning Bruiser sets that are rampaging around OU

TL;DR? If any of the three is getting the ban hammer it would be Deoxys, and if Mega Lucario is getting banned then we might as well ban Mega-Evolutions altogether.

Deoxys cannot change forms in battle and its Normal and Attack forms are banned.

Mega Lucario is vastly superior to most of the remaining Mega Evolutions. Why banning Mega-Lucario would make us want to ban the rest of the Megas makes no sense when none of them are as close to overpowering.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

why not use something with a choice scarf? i mean i've not seen any lucario kill a garchomp (scarfed) with bullet punch, vacuum wave or extremespeed

Besides, all those Ubers can be dealt with by revenge killers and/or Ditto, so the point stands.

You're basically saying using a Scarfer with a STAB move that's SE on a pokémon means it's not Uber. Not only it doesn't add up, but this is a tired argument that's always brought up in suspect threads and is always shot down. Forcing out a pokémon doesn't mean anything if 1) it can kill you with priority if you're weakened enough (Lucario loves late-game sweeping), 2) it's 4x resistant to Stealth Rock and 3) it can easily switch in later in the battle and kill another of your pokémon. You're basically playing to its tune, not countering/checking it.

 

[Omarcito]

Why would Lucarionite be banned? It's a little frail and there's mach punch if not carrying extreme speed

 

[THE_IRON_...KENYAN?]

People keep bringing up stats and stuff as to why things should be kept around, or banned, but I think that these pokemon are unfit fo rthe tier because they take away from the integrity of the game of pokemon. Power is valued over creativity, and I think the moral aspect is something that should be looked into

 

[Pyritie]

i'm just saying that Lucario's frail defences leave him open to scarfed threats, didn't mean to sound rude there

And how do you plan on switching in those scarfed threats?

Why would Lucarionite be banned? It's a little frail and there's mach punch if not carrying extreme speed

And if it is carrying extreme speed?

 

[Yilx]

 

[Omarcito]

And how do you plan on switching in those scarfed threats?

Dead fodder

And if it is carrying extreme speed?

Well Balls :P

 

[Adamant Jirachi]

And how do you plan on switching in those scarfed threats?



And if it is carrying extreme speed?

why would you switch in to it? just catch it off guard on the next switch in and use your head

 

[Anty]

Why would Lucarionite be banned? It's a little frail and there's mach punch if not carrying extreme speed

Fro who? Conkeldurr, who cannot switch into a cc, as well as mega luke is faster than most mach punchers, so can hit them with vacuum wave.

I genuinely didnt have much of an opinion in banning luke/genesect, but the arguments for (especcially with luke) completely out way the arguments against. The con-ban people seem to not have read the pro-ban arguments.

 

[KztxL7]

Once again, you're missing the point in which they're bringing up with "revenge killing".

This is getting in the same tier as people thinking of sacrificing pokemon with Rocky Helmet to Mega-Khan.

 

[THE_IRON_...KENYAN?]

revenge killing implies that one or more peokemon is taking out int he process, and if your argument that a thing is countered because it is able to be revenge killed, then that is a poor argument

your pokemon fainting isnt the same as countering a pokemon

 

[Adamant Jirachi]

Once again, you're missing the point in which they're bringing up with "revenge killing".

surely revenge killing is something to take into account when deciding a pokemon's rightful tier?

 

[RandysRage]

Personally I don't think Mega-Lucario or Genesect are broken (though TBH I hadn't used the Genesect at all nor do I have a Deoxys)

* Genesect is slow and reques an item for type changing meaning that if it runs Scarf it would be stuck with a 4x Fire weakness. On top of that some pokemon have Sturdy (granted few if any have access to both at the same time)
* Mega-Lucario still has the ironic weakness to fighting and the fact that you need the Mega stone meaning that he can't use Choice items/Leftovers/Lie Orb
* On the other hand, we have Deoxys as a Legendary with the ability to change formes to be anywhere from a Glass Cannon (Attack forme) to a Stone Wall (Defense forme) to a Jack of all Stats (Normal Forms) to a straight up Lightning Bruiser (Speed Forme) and yes I go to tvtropes and no I did not say "Fragile Speedster" because as a legendary his "bad" stats are still gonna be on par with other OU mons. I find it ironic that its the Lightning Bruiser sets that are rampaging around OU

TL;DR? If any of the three is getting the ban hammer it would be Deoxys, and if Mega Lucario is getting banned then we might as well ban Mega-Evolutions altogether.

Gonna have to stop you right there, buddy.

1. Genesect nearly always runs a +Speed nature in addition to Choice Scarf, so outspeeding it is frustrating to say the least. Yes, it has that nasty 4x weakness to Fire, but it can always just U-Turn out of danger, making it even harder to pin down. And Sturdy itself is never an answer as Stealth Rock destroys it, not to mention Mold Breaker.
2. MegaLuke may have common weaknesses, but it's still so bloody fast coupled with ExtremeSpeed that it rarely matters. So what if he can't hold other items? MegaLuke doesn't need them to wreck face.
3. Just because a Pokemon is Legendary doesn't mean it needs to be banned ASAP (lookin' at you, Articuno). And this is about possibly banning Deoxys-S, not its other forms.
4. Mega Evolution itself will never be banned. Hell, several Pokemon are only viable WITH their Mega forms (Pinsir being the best example of this). Crying about all Megas getting banned is pointless.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

why would you switch in to it? just catch it off guard on the next switch in and use your head

Because prediction is not a valid argument. It can go both ways. What if you predict wrong and my counter to your scarf comes in? The fact remains that nothing can really come in safely on Luc-m, and that is what makes people find it overpowering.

Edit: I don't see why revenge killing should be considered at all. You can revenge kill ANYTHING.

 

[Omarcito]

Besides, Bulky Conkeldurr can easily take an E-Speed and Mach Punch back, even if it has and S. dance up

 

[Kyle Rebar]

In my own opinion, Lucario has great coverage and a great move pool with already great stats. Lucario was OU to begin with and kept opponents off balance because they didn't know what kind it was. The boosted stats make it capable of sweeping entire teams. (I personally have done this a lot and I'm not that good). Lucarioite should be banned.

 

[KztxL7]

surely revenge killing is something to take into account when deciding a pokemon's rightful tier?

Sure we're taking it into account.

We're taking into account that the only solution you can come up with on beat a Mega Lucario is letting something die to it first.

Besides, Bulky Conkeldurr can easily take an E-Speed and Mach Punch back, even if it has and S. dance up

No one is going to leave a Mega-Lucario in against a Conkeldurr that isn't even damaged enough to die to the E-Speed/Bullet Punch.

 

[Adamant Jirachi]

Sure we're taking it into account.

We're taking into account that the only solution you can come up with on beat a Mega Lucario is letting something die to it first.

orrrr have something bulky? i think someone on here's already said that a bulky conkeldurr can easily take an extremespeed and KO back with mach punch. and what about landorus T, gliscor etc? they can live its STAB hits and KO back with earthquake. Landorus especially, as it gets intimidate on any physical set